The Biggest Table

Episode 64 (Jeremy Jernigan)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I'm your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast we explore the table food, eating and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.

And today I'm thrilled to be joined by Jeremy Jernigan.

Jeremy is a writer, speaker, and recovering megachurch pastor. After two decades in full-time ministry, including serving as lead pastor, he now focuses on helping people rebuild their faith after it breaks. He is the author of the Edge of the Inside and he hosts the Weekly Rebuilding Faith Series and the bi-Weekly Cabernet and Pray podcast. Jeremy lives in Arizona with his wife and five kids.

So thanks for joining me today, Jeremy. It's great to have you on this podcast. And yeah, looking forward to some fun conversation.

Jeremy Jernigan: Andrew, I'm excited. The last time you and I hung out, we were drinking in a church.

Andrew Camp: We were. Yes.

Jeremy Jernigan: So this just feels right to drink and talk about God together.

Andrew Camp: It, it does, except we were drinking beer and then you were mocking me because I had drank some [00:01:00] wine and went out for a nice meal and didn't invite you.

So

Jeremy Jernigan: I don't think mocking, I think more like, um, chastising because that I felt, I felt so excluded from this very cool experience you had that I experie I heard about after the fact. 'cause I, I, I wasn't invited to it, so then I just heard about it and to be

Andrew Camp: fair,

Jeremy Jernigan: sounded

Andrew Camp: really

Jeremy Jernigan: cool.

Andrew Camp: We were at Theology Beer Camp, which is a great event.

Um, and I didn't know you were coming to Theology Beer camp until,

Jeremy Jernigan: that's fair.

Andrew Camp: You showed up. So,

Jeremy Jernigan: yes.

Andrew Camp: Um,

Jeremy Jernigan: but this year, you know, I'm coming

Andrew Camp: this year. Yes.

Jeremy Jernigan: No excuses. Let the record state No excuses.

Andrew Camp: No. And it's in Kansas City this year, so there's gonna be some great barbecue places that I have yet to figure out where.

And so I'm, I'm working on it.

Jeremy Jernigan: I'm excited.

Andrew Camp: Me too.

Jeremy Jernigan: I hope I get an invite this year.

Andrew Camp: You will. You will.

Well, all right. So on your podcast Cabernet and Pray, you invite the guest to share a bottle with you and you drink together. Um, you know, and I think many [00:02:00] guests have shared it loosens their tongue. So by the end of the episode, they're saying what they normally wouldn't say on a podcast. Absolutely.

Jeremy Jernigan: Uh,

Andrew Camp: yeah.

And so it's fun. And so I thought, because we both love wine and we're into wine, we could do something slightly different that actually does correlate, uh, to your book. And, and for listeners who don't know, um, my day job is I'm a wine rep for a local, um, distributor in Arizona. We distribute boutique family wines.

So I get to drink a lot of good wines that you're not gonna find in the grocery store. Um, wines that, you know from wineries that care about the craft and care about the earth and want to do something to. In respect to the grape and to the world. Um, and so today because of that, I thought let's, let's drink two bottles of wine and compare and contrast, um, because it does we'll, we'll tease out the implications, but we're gonna be drinking two pinot noirs.

So the first wine is the Meiomi Pinot Noir from California 2023 Vintage. Um, my camera's out of focus, so nevermind. [00:03:00] Um, but um, and the second one is we're gonna be drinking from Lemelson Vineyards in Willamette from their Stermer Vineyards. So a single vineyard pinot noir from the Yamhill Carlton a VA. Um, so within Willamette there's different AVAs that produce different, um.

Styles of Pinot, and you really do get a sense of the taste from the different AVAs. Um, and so you've never, you never had Meiomi till yesterday. So tell me, you know, when you, when you heard I wanted us to drink a bottle of Meiomi, what did you think, Jeremy?

Jeremy Jernigan: So, what's funny is I've heard about Meiomi all the time.

Yeah. And at the last event I did, we, we do a lot of events with Communion Wine Co. At, at bars or in, in wine settings. So we literally were at a bar and someone brought up the fact that they love Meiomi. And so if they're listening to this, no hate to you. Yeah. Um, so I was like, oh, okay. That's a real, like, that's like people really love this, this is their go-to.

And so I was, I was [00:04:00] kind of like excited to like, okay, there's, there's been some cheaper wines that I've liked, you know?

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: And here's what I've got, I've got questions for you.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

Jeremy Jernigan: Andrew.

Andrew Camp: I, I haven't tasted it yet today, so I'm, I'm.

Jeremy Jernigan: I'm curious and my question is, I don't understand and here's what I would say.

Okay, so like, this is not like in my wine journey. So I started off probably like many people drinking cheap wine and not caring and like had, had no, had no palate for it. Then I ended up moving to Oregon, got into the Willamette Valley, got into Pinot Noirs, which we're, you know, enjoying today. And I was like, oh my goodness, this is a game changer.

And then since then have have been really spoiled with what I get to drink. 'cause it's mainly single vineyard type or you know, very, very isolated kind of stuff. So I remember the first time I was on an airplane and they're like, oh, you know you want thing. I'm like, I'll get a glass of wine. And it was after this and I hadn't had wine on an airplane in a long time.

And it was like the worst. Sw, [00:05:00] you know, and I'm like, I, I, I literally couldn't

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: Get that down.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Jeremy Jernigan: So I say that not because Meiomi is that 'cause it's not, I, I, I could drink Meiomi and, and it would like, I can get it down. We're fine. I'm just confused. I feel like if you love this, have you, have you had other ones like that?

I guess that's my question. Like, is this because you, you have done like what we're doing and you like this one, is it because it's more affordable? But even then, I'm trying to remember what I spent it, it wasn't as cheap as I thought it was gonna be.

Andrew Camp: No, no. It's still 15 to $20 retail at a grocery store.

Jeremy Jernigan: So I'm like, okay, so you're, this is not a cheap bottle. You know, you're, you're kind of mid range because I think for 30 bucks you can get a really nice bottle.

Andrew Camp: Yep. Right.

Jeremy Jernigan: So, I don't know, I guess I'm confused When I taste this, I get like, it feels sugary and jammy.

Andrew Camp: Yes. Yes.

Jeremy Jernigan: And. Almost like I, I have like a sip of it and I'm like, I, I don't know how much I could [00:06:00] drink of it in one setting.

That's kind of like the vibe.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: What do you, what do you get out of it?

Andrew Camp: Definitely sugar. It's big, you know, it's jammy. Um, you know, I, it it's a wine that somms love to hate, you know, it's hated on, in, in key regions. But yeah, like, it's,

it's fine. Like, it's not like the worst wine I've ever tasted. I,

Jeremy Jernigan: yeah. That, that's, this is how I feel. It's like I could drink it, you know?

Andrew Camp: Right. But why, you know, like, you know, and again, this is a wine. In 2023, Meiomi sold 1.8 million cases of wine. Like, so we're talking, do

Jeremy Jernigan: you know how, how expansive are they getting these grapes from?

Like how do they do that?

Andrew Camp: And that's where it's interesting, right? Because you know, the bottle May says California appellated, so like the grapes can come from anywhere in California. So this is [00:07:00] not estate fruit. The grapes can come from, you know, Santa Barbara, I think originally they wanted it to represent the coastal pinot noir categories from like, um, Santa Barbara, um, Sonoma.

And then they mentioned one more when I was doing some research. Um, and so like it was meant to be an everyday pinot, um, because the family, um, this is coming from the Wagner Wagner family who owns Caymus. They own Bell gloss, huge wine making family, but they wanted to make a wine that wasn't a pinot that wasn't super expensive.

Um mm-hmm. And so, you know, they're capitalizing on the effects of sideways, um, all of this interesting stuff. Um, but yeah. And. For it to be labeled Pinot and in the US it has to have at least 75% Pinot so they can be adding other stuff like, and

Jeremy Jernigan: I think they are

Andrew Camp: right. We think they are. And again, they're not disclosing, they're not gonna disclose what they're doing, [00:08:00] um, which is fine, right?

That's they're, but they can be adding some Syrah, they can be adding some concentrated grape juice. Um, but as long as it's 75% it can be still labeled Pinot Nook.

Jeremy Jernigan: You know what's interesting, doing these side by side on the nose, way more of a, uh, of a pronounced, uh, effect. Yeah. From that than the other one.

Yeah. Just on the nose where it's like, almost like if you were a cab drinker and you wanted something more like that, this might be a pinot you like.

Andrew Camp: Exactly.

Jeremy Jernigan: Because it's kind of, that hits you in the face with fruit.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And I was able to try Bell Gloss recently. Um, maybe a co you know, this was a couple months ago.

'cause. Another rep had it. She's like, oh, you should try it. And I try it and I'm like, oh. Like it was again, this style of pinot very fruit forward, very jammy, you know, and again, there's some regions in California that produce heavier pinots. Um, but yeah, it's just, [00:09:00] it

Jeremy Jernigan: is what it did. I'll say this to its credit.

I opened my bottle yesterday. I was doing a tasting and did not, was not a good first impression. It's tasting better today, so maybe it needs to breathe a little bit.

Andrew Camp: Maybe, maybe,

Jeremy Jernigan: maybe it just needs a little, little love,

Andrew Camp: right? And then on the other hand, we have the lemelson, and if you're like me, you have two glasses next to you because you weren't, you know?

Yep.

Jeremy Jernigan: I

Andrew Camp: got you. Um, so yeah, Lemelson, what I love about Lemelson is it was started, um, in 1995 by Eric Lemelson. His, what's fun story about this wine is that, or this winery is that Eric's dad is Jerome Lemelson, who was a crazy inventor in the 20th century. His first invention was the whirly beanie cap, which is why on the bottle you see the whirly beanie cap.

Um, wow,

Jeremy Jernigan: that's a fun fact.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And, but you know, how does this guy whose dad's an inventor get to buy an estate in Willamette?

Jeremy Jernigan: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: His dad [00:10:00] in the 1970s invented the barcode and the barcode reader.

Jeremy Jernigan: Wow.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. You talk about a, an invention that changed the course of history.

Jeremy Jernigan: I imagine he probably did well off that.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yes, yes.

Jeremy Jernigan: We, I've seen a few barcodes recently, so I'm imagining that that took off for him.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. That, that helps. But Eric was an environmental attorney before starting the winery. So when he built Lemelson, he built it with all reclaimed materials, um, wood from the forest. I think even using reef.

Claimed concrete that he got from the state of Oregon. Um, it's all gravity flow wine making, which is a gentler idea. So you're not pushing it through pumps, you know, and disturbing the wine, um, but allowing just natural temperatures to take place. And all of their fruit is estate, so meaning they have their own vineyards and they're getting their grapes, so all of their wines come from estate fruit.

Um, and so we're drinking Stermer Vineyard. This is from the Yamhill Carlton, a [00:11:00] VA. Um, uh, it's their biggest, or not their biggest, but it's sort of their, more of their single vineyard pinots. It's their biggest, so it's more of the earthy style. Um, some of their other ones are more fruit forward finesse.

This one has a little more body to it and structure, uh, to it.

Jeremy Jernigan: The color is totally different Yes. Than the other one.

Andrew Camp: Yes.

Jeremy Jernigan: So the Meiomi is, is much more of like a purple.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Jeremy Jernigan: This is much more red, like, just true. Almost maroon red.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. You can see through it, you know, it's lighter, so it's a little more translucent.

Um, only 522 cases of this wine produced. Um, Lemelson can only produce 12,000 cases, um, a year. So,

Jeremy Jernigan: okay. So you, you are, you are more, uh, well-rounded, [00:12:00] cultured with your career in, in the wine industry. I, I am heavily biased toward Willamette Valley Pinot, like Yes. Unabashedly. Yeah. Primarily what I drink.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Jeremy Jernigan: So I'm curious. You have, you know, I've never really had a California pinot. I loved,

Andrew Camp: okay.

Jeremy Jernigan: So I want to be fair to Meiomi. I don't really love Meiomi, but I also don't really love most California pinots because I am a Oregon pinot snob. Admitted.

Andrew Camp: For

Jeremy Jernigan: sure. So from from you, I'm, I'm guessing you have more of a balanced palette than me in this regard.

What do you think about like California Pinots in general, and then how would you, you know, put Meiomi in that category?

Andrew Camp: That's a great question. Um, I like I, again, I drink above my pay grade. Fair enough, right? Like, you know, um, and so getting to try different styles. Um, and I wanna do a side by side at some point of, you know, let's do Santa Rita Hills, which is the Santa Barbara area [00:13:00] for Pinots.

Carneros produces, you know, Sonoma Pinots and then you have Willamette. So, you know, to do a fair side by side. Um, but I like from California, I like more of the Santa Rita, um, area. So this is Santa Barbara cooler climate. You're right near the ocean. Um, you know, the geography's super unique. Um. I

Jeremy Jernigan: will agree.

Those are the best California pinots I've had.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. 'cause they're a little lighter, they're more acid driven. Um, they're fun. They're making some really cool chardonnays, um, in the Santa Rita areas as well, much like, you know, Oregon. Um, and so, yeah, I think Carneros will be much more jammy, you know, and that's not the fairest representation, but there'll be bigger, Sonomas warmer, so you're gonna get a bigger style of Pinot.

Um, but Willamette people say, you know, Willamette is this sort of fine line between California and Burgundy [00:14:00] style. Um, you know, and so many, we were doing a blind tasting with some friends on Wednesday and I had an Oregon pinot that they were blinding on and many people called Burgundy. Um mm. And so, whereas California has a little more, you know, structure, um, fruit forwardness to it.

Um, so yeah, I. Drinking good Pinot, you begin to see the uniqueness of the grape and what the beauty of what it can produce. Oh, yeah. Um, which I know you, you're familiar with. And so yeah. It's been fun to actually, once you drink good pinot you realize, oh, this is why I can never buy a good bottle before.

'cause you know, there

Jeremy Jernigan: Well, and you know, because the, the grape skin is so thin, it's such a finicky grape. Right. So I love that. I hate it in the fact that it's expensive because, you know, it, it do the, the nature of that. But I love it because it really shows off good wine making when, when they know what they're doing with it.

Yep. And you see like these single vineyards and a lot of the stuff in [00:15:00] Oregon, it's like these guys are artists mm-hmm. With what they're doing. And so. That's what I love too, is I feel like the Oregon ones are so balanced where like in this one I can pick out great fruit notes of like cranberry and cherry.

Mm-hmm. And it's definitely there, but it's not overpowering. It doesn't feel jammy at all. No. You also get the minerality. I feel like I can taste some of the soil that's there too in a perfect like, like nothing's overpowering anything. No. And it's just like delightful, you know? And it's like everything belongs the right way.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: And that's like, that's to me, like when you can taste those different qualities, that's a great pinot noir

Andrew Camp: for sure. And then it's gonna vary from year to year because vintages change, right? 2022, I was reading, you know, it was the year of the frost where there was late frost into April in Oregon, which delayed or you know, ruined some buds.

Thankfully there's, there were secondary bud breaks, but then it warmed up through October. And so, you know, they were saying these are producing more powerful style pinots in 2022 that [00:16:00] might, you know, sell longer. Um, you know, and so, you know, for these smaller wineries, the year to year difference makes a huge, is huge.

Um,

Jeremy Jernigan: you know what's interesting? I have had you, you talk about, you mentioned earlier that there are some big pinots that California does, you know, tries to make 'em really big. Oregon has some big pinots too, but they're not big in the same way. They're No, they're way more, um, those tertiary notes of Yeah.

That's how they get big. Right. Right. And so it's almost like they take the best part of a cab without it becoming a cab, you know? Right. And so then you have like, like, uh, there's this place called Archery Summit, which is one of my all-time favorites, and they make some robust organ pinots.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

Jeremy Jernigan: But they're not, they're not like hit you in the face with fruit, you know?

No. And so it's like, it's just, the whole thing is, is. Balanced Well. And so again,

Andrew Camp: yeah,

Jeremy Jernigan: I just, I don't see California doing the same thing, but I'm like, is it just 'cause I love Oregon and I I have more experience there, so that's why I'm like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna knock all California what they're doing, but I, [00:17:00] I'm a sucker for Oregon Pinot.

Andrew Camp: I totally get it. And that's fair. Uh, I think, you know, we'll have to taste some good California pinots so you can be like, oh, okay, I see what they're doing. And uh, you know, it's, it's fun.

Jeremy Jernigan: Maybe,

Andrew Camp: uh, maybe, but see where, where the difference is, you know, where Lemelson might vary from year to year, Meiomi, they are building a wine that is gonna be consistent, right?

Like they want the consistent taste profile. So they're eng engineering it, um, every year to taste the same because it's what customers like. Right. You know, they don't want their Meiomi to taste different. Um,

Jeremy Jernigan: well, but to me that's the best part of like finding a vineyard you like

Andrew Camp: Yes.

Jeremy Jernigan: And then getting each year of that vineyard.

So this is like, you know, when you're a member of a, of a winery.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: You know, it's like you get to, you get to track the same, the same vineyards over the years.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Jeremy Jernigan: And that to me is the coolest thing of like, okay. Uh, like with with archery [00:18:00] something I was mentioning earlier, their acus vineyard is my favorite.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

Jeremy Jernigan: So the acus bottles are always, I'm so excited and I can tell you like 2011 Aus my all time favorite Aus like, you know, there's just years that you like that year, but they're not. They're not the same, even though it's literally the same vines. Same, yeah. You know, same plants from the same place year after year.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Jeremy Jernigan: But to your point, that way of wine making, there's, there is a lot of variety year to year and I love that variety. Whereas you realize when you get to these massive mega blends there, you're not gonna get any of that. You're going to get the exact same thing every year. Right.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Well, and then it's fun too because, you know, I've been able to taste Lemelson single Vineyards side by side where like the same year.

So they have three different single vineyard, um, expressions. Um, and, you know, to taste them side by side where it's the same wine maker, same wine making techniques, same oak basic, same oak [00:19:00] regimen. And you, you know, the only thing different is where the grapes were planted and the, the nuance and the distinctiveness of each grape, of each single vineyard you begin to pick up on.

You're like, oh wow. This is the beauty of Pinot is that it gives expression to the terroir, you know, which is that fancy French word that people make fun of, but once you taste it, you're like, oh no, this is real. You know? And where the grapes are planted within miles of each other makes a huge difference.

Jeremy Jernigan: Well, and this when the soil is different, even if it,

Andrew Camp: it's,

Jeremy Jernigan: you know, one hill over

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: And you're like, oh, it's actually a different soil. Yeah. Which matters like, this affects the taste. And when you do those kind of tastings, you're like, oh, this, this is both Pinot. But it tastes very different. You know, my favorite that I had at, at Archery Summit was one time, uh, they, I, I've become friends with some of the guys.

So the tasting manager one time was like, Hey, let's, let's geek out and do something fun. I'm like, yes, let's do it. So he brings out of acus, which is my favorite vineyard, brings out [00:20:00] a 2001, a 2011, and a 2021.

Andrew Camp: Ah.

Jeremy Jernigan: And so we got to taste. 20 years of, of variety of the same exact, you know, grape. Now these are probably different winemakers at that point, but I mean, that was like the coolest thing to realize these are the same plants,

Andrew Camp: right?

Jeremy Jernigan: Making, you know, the fruit in these bottles and yet to see how the years and the aging and, oh, I mean, that was like, this is when people were like, you know, wines, all wine is wine. You know, it tastes the same. It's, it's grape juice. It's like you don't need to be snobby about it, but don't call it grape juice.

You know? It's like there's so much to it that is really beautiful if you learn how to embrace it.

Andrew Camp: Right. And you don't have to be the snob, right? Like I think that Yeah,

Jeremy Jernigan: totally.

Andrew Camp: And, and, and this is where I think I want come back to as we discuss more of your book. 'cause we do wanna pay homage to, to this work.

I know

Jeremy Jernigan: we're just talking about wine today.

Andrew Camp: I, I would love to just talk about wine, but I think, you know, the beauty of wine is it does carry over into life. [00:21:00] You know, if you, if we've watched Sideways, I meant to grab the quote, um, but when he talks about Pinot is thin skinned and finicky, and really he's describing himself and, you know, Pinot

Jeremy Jernigan: such a great movie.

Andrew Camp: Such a great movie, and we're not gonna drink F and Merlott, um,

Jeremy Jernigan: sorry, Merlot, but we, we love You.

Andrew Camp: Wasn't the bottle he finished on, you know, a Merlot.

Jeremy Jernigan: Yeah,

Andrew Camp: a Merlot. So people feel like

Jeremy Jernigan: that's the beauty of that movie. People don't realize he ends on a merlott, which is like so great.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. So, but your book, you know, we're recording this a few days out from your release.

It will, the podcast will release post. When your book is out, but you've written this book and it's born out of a journey, um, of grief, pain, disappointment. Um, so just for our listeners to get a glimpse of what, why this book at this point, like, unpack a little bit, share your story, what you're comfortable with.

Jeremy Jernigan: Yeah. Wine helps.

Andrew Camp: Wine does help. Yes.

Jeremy Jernigan: I came from what I would call the [00:22:00] center of Christianity, and this is some of the language I use in the book where I'm second generation preachers. Um, so grew up, I mean, I was the kid growing up in the pews, had my little toys and action figures on, on the way up. You know, I decide this is what I want to do as well.

This is super cool. I go get, you know, my degree in church ministry. Love it. End up, you know, working in the church for two decades and um, just. I mean, it was like everything I wanted it to be. Ended up becoming a lead pastor of a multi-site, uh, megachurch in the Pacific Northwest. Hence when I fell in love with wine that all correlates together and would've told you this was, I got the job in 2017, would've told you, this is my dream job.

I'm retiring in this position. I mean, it was like everything has led me to this. This is all I've ever wanted for my career. I, I loved it. Fast forward three years and the world is very different in 2020, and you have COVID, which disrupts everything [00:23:00] as, as we all remember. Um, you also had George Floyd's murder, which, you know, sent this ripple effect throughout our country.

And there was a variety of these like reactionary hubs to that. And Portland became one of them where there was like a groundswell of reaction to that. So everybody around us is talking about it. You know, we were in Portland, it's like everybody's talking about it. So I'm like. The church should be talking about it like we should, not that we have the solution necessarily, but like we need to engage with this moment.

And things derailed so fast. I mean, it was the wildest, um, where I realized the majority of the church was really with me leaning in ready, like, yes, what does it mean to be a Christian in this moment? What does it mean for us to side with people who are vulnerable and hurting and being oppressed and like all of that?

Then you had a pocket of people that were not interested in that.

Andrew Camp: No,

Jeremy Jernigan: and they had the relational dynamic to say, we don't want to [00:24:00] be this church, and that's not what we intended. And so I go from thinking, this is my dream job to getting a two-page ultimatum out of the blue for my elder board that basically says, shut up about all of this.

Just preach Jesus. And you know, we don't want to talk about, we don't wanna be this kind of church and. It's a much longer story. It's part one of the book. So if you'd like to get into all the details, I get into all the details and Yeah. Some of them I think are crazy. So that leads me to this, this decision of what, what did I go into ministry for?

Was it to keep the thing running or was it to ultimately follow Jesus into whatever I sense Jesus leading me to next? Yeah. And that was like a real no-brainer. You know, it's like I don't care about maintaining this. So I end up resigning from my dream job three years in and we lose all of our friends, we lose everything.

We were trying to stay in Oregon again, I tell all this story in the book. Yeah. We're trying to stay in Oregon, [00:25:00] realize we couldn't have to move back to Arizona where we're originally from in like utter defeat. Mm-hmm. And uh, chapter one opens with like my rock bottom story.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: And people have loved it.

'cause it's, you can smell the details in the story. I'll just, I'll give you that hint.

Andrew Camp: Yep.

Jeremy Jernigan: And. I, I then entered what I would call liminal space. And most people are familiar with that term where you can't go back to where you've been, but you haven't arrived at where you're going, and you're just kind of stuck, right?

And I, I was there for like five years and it was horrible because it was like, who am I? Am I, am I a pastor still? If I am not, uh, officially at a church, you know, do I keep preaching? Do I pivot to something else? I started doing more with wine in that season just because it was like, Hey, you can be honest around a glass of wine about these things without having the same pressures that you get in church.

And so it's really been a, a handful of years, and I've tried to write this story four, like four or five different times, [00:26:00] and every time I would try to write it, it just didn't feel right. Mm-hmm. And I was like, I'm either coming across bitter or I'm not even resolved, or I don't know what the point of this is yet, you know?

So it was like, it's not ready. It's not ready. But I just kept, I'm a writer, so it's like that's how I process, you know, I just keep writing things. And it was like, it's not ready. And then, uh, about a year or two ago, I, I went at it again and it was like everything clicked and it was like all of a sudden, I understand this.

And, and so then it became, I want to tell this story of, so the book's called The Edge of the Inside, the idea being we expect God to Be found in the Center. And Richard Rohr came up with this phrase, and he actually says that God is, is more often found and truth is more often found on the edges.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: And not in the center of it. And that just brought me to life when I realized, oh, that is, that is where I'm experiencing God is on the edge, not in the center anymore. So then part one of the book is that journey and then inviting the reader to figure out, like maybe you've gone through that journey too, and you [00:27:00] didn't realize it make, maybe it wasn't as dramatic as mine, but you're like, oh, I've been moving away from the center.

Hadn't really known I did, but you know, and some people are like, that's a hundred percent me. You know, it's like exactly what I, what I've doing. And then part two is, okay, how do we rethink God? From a different vantage point. Yeah. Right. Because when you view God from the center, you, you view God the way you're told to view God from the center theology.

Yeah. But when you go to the edges, that's not how you have to understand God. And there's all this other room to, to understand God in different ways. So part two is really rethinking all of these Greek ideas of God that Western Christianity has assumed is normative and challenging them and going, what if we didn't view it like that?

What if we allowed the scriptures to open up new doors? And what's been so cool about that, Andrew, is people are telling me it's like we have, you know, some people in our launch team that have read an early version of it, they're like, we've never heard these ideas before about God. Mm-hmm. Wow. Which is like the coolest thing to me.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: If this book [00:28:00] becomes like someone's first exposure to some really cool ways of understanding and experiencing God, and then part three of the book is, okay, so if we, if we're willing to journey from the center to the edge. We start rethinking God and going, okay, maybe God isn't who we thought God was.

Yeah. Part three is how do we move forward now? Right? Like, what does this look like to put all this together? And you know, Walter Brigman has this idea that imagination has to come before implementation.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Jeremy Jernigan: And it's that idea of once we start to imagine it, then let's start to implement what does this look like?

And part three is, is like my, my attempt at here's how we can start to, to move forward with all this.

Andrew Camp: First thank you for, for sharing. And you know that it took five years because I think I'm two years out from losing my job and at times it still feels disorienting and WTF moments and you know, like, yeah, where am I?

Who am I? What, what is comfortable? Um, you know, [00:29:00] and um, you know, so I think allowing that space, you know, even for listeners to say, okay, you know, moving. Away from what you once knew of faith, what you know, and whatever that looks like for that person. Like it's going to take time and grief and sorrow. Um, but there was also a point for the center, 'cause you and I were both raised from the center, right?

Mm-hmm. Like I was never the pastor's kid, but my dad was an elder, you know, at a large church. Um, you know, we were known as a family, you know, all my friends were the pastor's kids, elder kids, missionary kids, you know. And so the center nurtured us.

Jeremy Jernigan: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Um, and so for you, like looking back five years now and having that perspective of not anger, bitter resentment, like where can you name those things that the center gave you That you are good?

Because I think it's easy to say the center's all bad. Sure, let's burn it all down. But the wisdom is, okay, where, [00:30:00] who am I? Because I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for the center.

Jeremy Jernigan: Sure. No, it's a, it's a great question. I think some people hear this, and if you're not willing to entertain the conversation, often I've found the knee jerk reaction is, oh, you're just bitter at the church.

And I just encourage people like, no, it's not bitterness. And I hope you can read the book because I talk about the things that I'm grateful for and there's lots of, I grew up, I grew up believing Jesus was real.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: Not just because someone told me, but because I saw the effects of following Jesus. What a gift.

Yeah. To grow up with without awareness of, of course, Jesus is real. I see Jesus affect people's lives every week. Like that alone is, is so great. And so, you know, the, when I, when I stepped away from being a lead pastor, I got asked a lot, are you and Jesus? Okay. And I'd always tell people. Oh, oh. I'm not confused on who [00:31:00] did this to me.

It wasn't Jesus. This was the church. Jesus and I are good, the church and I have got some things we gotta work through. Right. And so that's what it was. Well, I was introduced to Jesus as a kid. Like I'm so grateful for that environment. I'm grateful to see that. I think the majority of Christians have really good intents.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: Uh, intentions. They have really good desires. They want to follow God. They want to make the world a better place. You know, there's, there's beauty in Christianity, even with its flaws. Like I got to grow up immersed in, in all of that to the point where it's like I wanted to spend the rest of my life doing it.

Like, yeah, it wasn't a negative. I loved it. You know what I mean? And so there's lots of that. And the image that I think is the most helpful is rather than thinking, oh, I have to go burn that down because that's the former version of me, or I don't live in the center anymore. Here's what I encourage people to do is compost.

All of that. Mm-hmm. Right. Let it die, [00:32:00] but let it die as nutrients for what is growing in you now. And so to me, those parts of me, that journey, like there's so many versions of me that I would say, I remember thinking that and being that those parts of me are dead, but they've composted and they have allowed me, they like, I couldn't be who I am today without those parts.

Right. So there is a gratitude, not because those parts were the end all be all, but because those parts led me to where I am today. And I, I'm so grateful today and you know, watching people react to this book already by saying like, oh my gosh, this is my story. You're giving language to my story.

Literally, I'm like, then this all was worth it.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: Like. All the pain, you know? And so even you as like two years in, you're like, how could this be worth, you know? It's like when you're in the middle of it, just nothing feels worth it, but

Andrew Camp: Right.

Jeremy Jernigan: When you start to see like, oh, beauty's coming from what has been composted.

Mm-hmm. New things are growing [00:33:00] out of it.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: That's the, that's the appreciation. So there's no bitterness, but there's also, I don't have to give blanket endorsements on it.

Andrew Camp: No.

Jeremy Jernigan: And I think for a lot of people that nuance is maybe confusing. Um, but it's like you, you can live in that nuance and it's not, it's not confusing.

No. Um, and so I can be grateful for all of that and still not want to go back to it.

Andrew Camp: Right. Because you can appreciate Meiomi, you can say, okay, it's, it is what it is.

Jeremy Jernigan: So good.

Andrew Camp: But, but it's also realizing, hey, this single vineyard Lemelson has a little more complexity. There's some beauty to be brought out.

Jeremy Jernigan: And here's what I would say, and this is why you came up with, I wanna give all all credit to this analogy, this wine, wine game we're playing is you. And it's brilliant. And here's what I would tell you. How many people could use Meiomi as a gateway to get to Lemelson?

Andrew Camp: Right,

Jeremy Jernigan: right. Yeah. So let's say you, you decide, I like Meiomi.

I might be a wine drinker.

Andrew Camp: Right?

Jeremy Jernigan: That's [00:34:00] awesome. Perfect. You and I would want more wine drinkers. Like we, we like wine drinkers. So if Meiomi helps you decide you're a wine drinker, that's awesome. As a wine drinker, now I wanna introduce you to the Willamette Valley, right? Yeah, exactly. And so its so, it's not burn down, Meiomi.

It's let's use what Meiomi can bring to you to keep going, keep growing, keep evolving. And that's, to me, that was my question. I was like, if you love Meiomi, is it 'cause you haven't had other things or is it 'cause you, you stopped there and that is your favorite. My guess is you, you didn't keep going, you didn't keep trying new things.

You just kind of said, Hey, this is good. I like it. Which is probably what the center is for a lot of people, right? Like, this is good. I like it. It works.

Andrew Camp: It

Jeremy Jernigan: works until it doesn't, until something happens. Or, you know, you have that moment. But, uh, for a lot of people, and I imagine a lot of your listeners, they're like, yeah, I had a moment that didn't work for me anymore.

Andrew Camp: Right?

Jeremy Jernigan: And then you gotta figure out what do you do now?

Andrew Camp: No. And to, you know, we could even tie it into scripture of Hebrews [00:35:00] chapter five, verses 12 through 14, where like, Meiomi may be the milk, you know, and, and like Lemelson now that, now the meat, you know, more complexity, you know, like, uh,

Jeremy Jernigan: wow, you are, you are running with this analogy and I'm here for it, Andrew.

I'm

Andrew Camp: here for

Jeremy Jernigan: it.

Andrew Camp: Hey, you know, pastors, we gotta find the analogy in everything, right? You know, like, that's

Jeremy Jernigan: incredible.

Andrew Camp: But it's true. Like, right, like, you know, like there is that space, right? Like Meiomi, again, it introduced you to something. Totally. It introduced you and, and, and we like it and it's familiar and it, it's, it's the milk and you know, my seminary degrees in spiritual formation and our professor John Coe used to always say like, you know, when we first become Christians, we drink from, from milk.

Like God gives us milk like a newborn baby and a mother. Like, and we love it because it's easy. There's nothing we have to do for it, you know. But once God takes away that bottle or the nipple, like, you know, like [00:36:00] what do we do? What do we do? And, and we have to figure out new ways to relate to God. And we have to figure out what does this look like and who is Jesus if he's not, you know that.

Um,

Jeremy Jernigan: well, and I think for a lot of people to the point you're making. Your theology works.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: Until it doesn't.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Jeremy Jernigan: Until you have some question that you can't answer with your current understanding of God, or you have a life event happen that you can't make sense of with your current understanding of God.

And that's where I, that's what I'm really getting at holistically in the book. So it's not just memoir, that's just kind of like the first part of it. Yeah. But it's really trying to equip people to say, when you have your own journey from the center to the edge and you're like, this doesn't work anymore.

And again, it can be a job loss, loss of a loved one. I mean, anything that disrupts what was working. Right. Yeah. And welcome to life. I mean, we all have all sorts of these moments, right? So then you're like, well, this is how I've [00:37:00] always explained God. But that doesn't seem to work right now. And people have questions of like, you know, theological questions.

Like, okay, so I just talked to someone the other day in our online community, this is so fascinating. She was becoming a missionary and she's literally getting trained to go be a missionary. And in this training they tell her how many millions of people, billions around the world are going to hell unless missionaries reach them.

And in the training, she thinks what kind of a monstrous God would send this many people to hell if people like me don't go and talk to them. And as she's training to be a missionary, she starts deconstructing that idea and going, that doesn't make any sense that this God that I have experienced would do that.

There must be something else. Right? So she quits and like left, like backed out and is like, I need to rethink God. This doesn't make sense to me. No. And that became the thing for her and I, it's like. You can get into this in any [00:38:00] angle, right, of this doesn't work, or this idea or this question. And then you need something to rethink it.

And the way I've described it is the theology in, in this book in part two is what I wish I had 20 years ago. This is the book I wish someone would've given me to go, Hey, you've got some big questions and your current way. And again, I grew up in the church, right? And I didn't know these, I didn't know the ideas in this book when I was in my, my twenties.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: I'm writing it for that version of me that's like, I wish I would've had these ideas. And it's been so fun for people to say, I've literally never heard this before. And it's like opening, you know, this, this opening the cork to a brand new bottle. See how I did there? Right? Yeah. Yeah. I like it. You know, but it's like you just unleash something that they're like, once you've seen it, you, there's no going back.

'cause now you know, God can also be different than you were told. Now you gotta go pursue that and figure out whether there's truth in that. And oh, I just love it.

Andrew Camp: I I do too. And you know, I [00:39:00] think for me, 'cause you know the center, we never leave the center in a once moment. Like you would, you even shared in your book that you're losing your job wasn't the, or it was the big point, right?

It was probably being pushed off the cliff instead of, you know, continuing a journey that you were already on. But to own that is scary because, you know, I think I remember. I, you know, I served overseas as a missionary post-college and was teaching high school seniors, sort of biblical worldview, right?

And then at the end of the class, I'm like, this doesn't work. Like Gruden doesn't make sense for these kids. Like it's not helping. And this is in 2006. And I had started like reading about the emerging church and like, oh wait, there might be different ways and story and how could we do it? But I, the center still held me.

Yeah. And it still provided the security I needed to the point where like, I don't know if I fit. I remember even [00:40:00] a month before I was let go of my job, I shared with my counselor like, I don't know if I can keep doing this. You know? And then I got fired and he's like, Andrew, you said this a month ago.

Like, and I was like, well, yeah, but I wasn't ready to, to jump.

Jeremy Jernigan: I didn't wanna lose my job.

Andrew Camp: I didn't wanna lose my job. All right. 'cause there's economic security a hundred percent especially, you know, and so I think how, how. How do we take those steps knowing that there is fear in losing a lot? Because you're not asking us just to like change beliefs there.

At times there's gonna be a loss of community, of friendships like you and I have experienced. And so like people are like, okay, this sounds great, but I have to give up a lot.

Jeremy Jernigan: Yeah. Here's what I found, and I don't love this observation, I'm about to give you Andrew.

Andrew Camp: No. Fair.

Jeremy Jernigan: But I, here's what I found. Okay.

So I'm gonna try to be honest to the, to the research, right?

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: The majority of people I talk to [00:41:00] that this strikes a chord with them and they're like, oh my gosh, this is me. The reason it's them is not because they chose it.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Jeremy Jernigan: Something happened.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: And the commonality. Is something jolts you out of the center.

And again, it can be a question, it can be a life event, it can be all sorts of things. Something jolts you out of the center. And then what you're describing is you start to realize you've been on a journey for a while. Yeah, you didn't really realize you were on a journey because you were doing it within the safety net.

But if the safety net falls out on you, then you're forced to grapple with reality. And this book is when you're that in that place or you think that place is coming, or you wanna be prepared for that place, I'm gonna help you grapple with you list lost your safety net. Now what? And for a lot of us, if you don't know now, what you just kind of panic in liminal space.

And you know, I, [00:42:00] I tell the story in the book like I was financially. Screwed. I was screwed with my career. I mean, it was like, it was not, uh, okay, this is fine. We'll figure this. It was like, this is wrecking my life. My kids had to go into counseling. I mean, it was like it messed us up. And so I think you have to be honest about that to say, for a lot of us, that has been the experience or is the experience, I wish this is, this is what I wish.

I wish you and I could just sit here and go, you know what? I'm in the center. It's working great for me. Everything's fantastic, and I'm just gonna choose to go to the edge because I think that would be better.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: I just haven't really met that person. No. So like in theory, sure you could do it. It tends to be the person that's like, I can't stop asking this question, or I can't unsee this, or I can't reconcile that, or what the hell has happened with this?

I mean, it's like those are the moments that you go, [00:43:00] I have to rethink this. And I want to come alongside that person. Like, okay, it's gonna be okay. Take a deep breath. We're gonna get through this. Right. And the beauty of it is, coming out of it, you know, six years now for me, is having these kind of conversations with people like you.

Right. And, and realizing there are other people on the edge. Yeah. So you, you, you may have lost one community. I lost. I mean, we, again, we were trying to stay in Oregon. I lost everybody practically in that, in that journey, which never saw that coming. So massive amounts of loss. And a lot of people were like, Hey, when I started asking this question, I wasn't welcome in my community anymore.

Yeah. Like in a lot of church spaces. That's, that's the story I hear. Well, here's the encouragement. There are other communities waiting for you, right? There are other people ready for you. And when you start finding other people who are on the edge, and you can be on the edge together, the amount of [00:44:00] life.

And joy and hope you experience makes the whole thing worth it. And if you haven't got to that piece yet, just take my word on it and borrow hope from me. Borrow, yeah. 'cause I needed to borrow it, you know, as I was going through my own journey, but now I'm getting to see it and just getting the reactions to this book has been so encouraging because I'll be super honest, I don't care if someone's like, Jeremy's a good writer and that book is an interesting story.

Like, that's not what I'm, that's not the win for me. No. The win is someone goes, oh my goodness, this equips me for, for my edge. This, this helps me come to life on the edge. That is like, then it's like not only was writing the the book worth it, but like the last six years and beyond. 'cause again, I've been on this journey of the edge.

All of it was worth it. And if I get to help other people come to life on the edge, like, gosh, I can't imagine a cooler thing.

Andrew Camp: No. And I do think there is beauty at the edge, right? Like, you know, curiosity, asking [00:45:00] good questions. It's what you're inviting the church and Christians to do is just be curious, be curious about the world, right?

Like, let's be curious about what might be versus what we have known. And then you realize, oh wait, there's so much more expansive spaces to move and walk in. Like, you know, I remember first reading about like Eastern Orthodox Eucharist celebrations and being like, oh my gosh, wow. Like there's beauty here.

Like it's not just a stale cracker and grape, Welch's grape juice. Like there is, there's something beauty and holy here that I've been missing out on or reading about African American spirituality. You know, just being curious helps, you know. But it's also scary, right? Because then you're asking the questions that aren't safe because you know, when we're in the center, we feel safe.

And you know, you even write that it whispers to us that the world must be okay because I'm okay.

Jeremy Jernigan: Yes. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Um,

Jeremy Jernigan: [00:46:00] and there's, there's gatekeeping in the center because you have to defend the center,

Andrew Camp: right.

Jeremy Jernigan: Because that's where the power is. It's where the control is. It's where the narrative is written, which, you know, gives it all the influence, but it also, it's a lot of work to maintain that.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: And so that's where, when you become the person that's asking the question that gets curious, the gatekeepers will often come at you. Yeah. Like, no, no, no, we don't do that here.

Andrew Camp: No, no.

Jeremy Jernigan: Because you're bad for business if you start asking questions.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Jeremy Jernigan: And you know, it's hard when you start realizing, oh, I can't ask that question here.

Yeah. Like, oh. Like, and I think a lot of people have that reaction to their church community. Like they love their church community, then they want to have a conversation. They find out, oh, my church won't, won't have this conversation.

Andrew Camp: No.

Jeremy Jernigan: And it can be about, you know, like what a lot of people are, are realizing lately is.

You know, with all, everything going on with ice, people are like, Hey, this is problematic. We are literally doing these horrible things to people. Let's talk about this and then find out their church is like, oh, no, we [00:47:00] don't, we don't do that here.

Andrew Camp: No.

Jeremy Jernigan: It's like, we, we can't talk about how our, our country is dehumanizing people and murdering pe and it's like, no, no, no.

We don't, we don't talk about that here. Yeah. And people are like, oh. And so I've like literally tried to help people. Like, you're finding out what kind of church you went to. This has always been the kind of church you were at. You just didn't realize it.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: And now you gotta decide, do you, do you wanna live in that place or do you want to go some community where you can talk about that and go like, Hey, this is a problem.

Like, let's, let's address it.

Andrew Camp: Right. Because, you know, I remember thinking, you know. Churches that are purple, right. You know, like, hey, we, we appeal to everybody, but in appealing to everybody, they're really not saying anything because saying anything's going to upset either side.

Jeremy Jernigan: Correct.

Andrew Camp: And so you're never act, you know, you're just trying to hold the center.

Um,

Jeremy Jernigan: and here's what's so fascinating to me, and this is, again, I got the, the premise of the, the title is from Richard Rohr. I give him credit in chapter one.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. [00:48:00]

Jeremy Jernigan: Richard Rohrer's insight should cause us to pause. Because, you know, think about this question. Did Jesus pick sides? And the, the biblical answer is 100% he did.

And the sides he picked was, he was always with the marginalized, the vulnerable, the anyone who is victimized by the system. And he would stand in, in opposition to the system, right?

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Jernigan: So today we should be willing to do the same thing, which means that, you know, that purple church is standing with the system.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Jeremy Jernigan: That's what the Purple Church is doing. Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna keep the status quo as it is. We're gonna let everything be as it is. That's not where Jesus would be standing.

Andrew Camp: No.

Jeremy Jernigan: Jesus would be looking at who's marginalized in this community, who's victimized, who's being scapegoated. I'm gonna go be with them.

And so the invitation for us is go be with them. Well, guess what? They're on the edges.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: They're not in the center.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Jeremy Jernigan: And that's the big aha to this is when you start, you start finding this and you're like, oh, I'm, I'm seeing Jesus in ways I've never seen [00:49:00] Jesus before.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Jeremy Jernigan: And it's not because Jesus isn't in the center, it's just that Jesus is uniquely on, the issues

Andrew Camp: on these

Jeremy Jernigan: is uniquely standing with these marginalized people.

Marginalized people.

Andrew Camp: Right. That maybe the L-G-B-T-Q community might be able to help me see Jesus in ways that I have never seen Jesus before.

Jeremy Jernigan: Oh, some of the coolest insights

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: That I've had about the Bible have come from gay Christians.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Jeremy Jernigan: And I'm like, I have never. Read that story like that, right?

Yeah. Because I'm not gay. No. So when I listen to their vantage point, it's like, I'm so much better now because I got to take that insight from you. Well, guess what? You can do that for all sorts of people on the edge.

Andrew Camp: Right?

Jeremy Jernigan: You know what I mean? And it's like, but if you, if you never allow those people to have a voice, which the center does not, then you don't get those perspectives.

Andrew Camp: No. And yet, you know, you talked about Jesus being, you know, he moved towards the fringes, right? He moved towards the edges, [00:50:00] but, and he had harsh words for the Pharisees, but he still dined with the Pharisees. And this has always been my rubbing point, right? Like, you know, of like, okay, so how do I, how do I see Jesus on the edge and move towards the edge and, and find friendships and beauty and glory and nuance and complexity and drink Lemelson all day, but still dine with the center?

Um. You know, and, and, and be prophetic when needed, but also be loving and gentle because it's easy to move towards the edges. And then condescendingly talk about the, the center. Um, but I don't think that's Jesus. Um, and, and so how, how do we, as we move, how do we still be gracious and love towards people who, who love Meiomi?

Jeremy Jernigan: So here's what, here's what I think is interesting. I think what we assume is [00:51:00] it's gotta be all or nothing,

Andrew Camp: right?

Jeremy Jernigan: So we assume, all right, either I have to cut off the people from the sender and I don't talk to 'em, or I fully condone what they're doing. And what you find in Jesus is not that

Andrew Camp: no.

Jeremy Jernigan: When. You know, I was just reading this recently when, um, I think it's Mary, you know, pours, uh, perfume on Jesus' feet and, and her hair and starts wiping, crying, and all of this, you know where he is when that happens.

He's at a Pharisee's house,

Andrew Camp: right?

Jeremy Jernigan: So at the Pharisee's house, you might think he'd be very polite and, Hey, I don't wanna offend the Pharisee, you know? No, no, no. He absolutely throws shade at this guy.

Andrew Camp: Right?

Jeremy Jernigan: You haven't washed my feet when I walk in. You haven't dried my feet with your hair. You haven't, you know, and so he's at the Pharisees house being fully Jesus, right?

Like bringing the marginalized literally to the Pharisees.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: And so to me that is. [00:52:00] That's the sweet spot. And that's what I try to get to in chapter three is, is inviting this both and yeah, it's not, these are the bad guys, these are the good guys. It's both. And living in that tension to say, go be with the Pharisees.

Go eat with them and bring the marginalized with you.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Jeremy Jernigan: Like that is the image you see in Jesus. So yeah, we don't cut anybody off, but it doesn't mean while I'm at their house. So I, you know, I, I gotta endorse, I gotta endorse what they're doing. And it's like, you, you don't have to endorse what they're doing to be in a relationship with them.

Andrew Camp: No. And you can be curious still, you know, and I think Caleb Campbell, a mutual friend of ours, like, you know, his ideas of like, okay, where can,

Jeremy Jernigan: it's the back cover of the book. Do you see

Andrew Camp: that? I know he endorsed, he's on the front Co or Yeah, the back cover. He's on the back

Jeremy Jernigan: cover.

Andrew Camp: Um, like, you know, because he's always, you know, he, he encourages curiosity with the center, you know, of like, okay, what's the value undergirding this?

And how can we find common ground? Um, you. Which is much more gentler, but [00:53:00] still prophetic.

Jeremy Jernigan: Well, because

Andrew Camp: at some, no, go ahead.

Jeremy Jernigan: Well say for someone doesn't know, you know, Caleb literally views himself as a missionary to Christian nationalists.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: Which is a phenomenal, phenomenal way to navigate that. And the line that he said when he endorsed my book, that I was like, I want this line.

I mean, literally, I picked this line for the back cover because I thought it was, this captures the heart. He, he wrote this for anyone who has loved the church enough to tell it the truth.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Jernigan: And that's the point. This is not a tirade against the church. It is love for the church, but I'm going to tell the church the truth.

And to me, that's what we're trying to, to get to here. Right. And that's what Caleb does so well. Yeah. Right. It's like I'm gonna go into these Christian nationalist spaces, not to endorse you, not to make you feel like I agree with you, but because I love you and I want something better for you, and I'm going to engage this with you.

Andrew Camp: Right. Because at some point. Their world might come crashing down [00:54:00] and who are they gonna look to? Right. To help them when they, when their community no longer supports them. You know, maybe it's, it's me who showed some love and care and concern versus Yeah. The other person.

Jeremy Jernigan: Yeah. When they have a question, who are they gonna ask?

Andrew Camp: Right? Yeah. And when somebody wants better wine, who are they gonna ask? Like, hopefully,

Jeremy Jernigan: you know, when you, when you get tired of Meiomi, you gotta find someone that knows the good stuff.

Andrew Camp: Right. But again, Meiomi's fine. And you know, we only go to the grocery store and that's fine. But could you find, you know, if, you know, again, we're beating this drum, but like, you know, when you're wanting to look outside of the center, you're not gonna go to the grocery store anymore for wine.

You're gonna find a local wine shop and hopefully they're kind and gracious, which I found most of them are. And you're gonna say, Hey, I. I like this. Help me find something similar, and here's my budget. And they will steer [00:55:00] you rightly because they want to help you grow. Um,

Jeremy Jernigan: well, and that's, to me, the journey of anything.

That's the journey of growth, right? So, okay, I wanna get into Wine Mart. Great, here's where you start and let's keep going. And then where I encourage people, I don't know, you know, if you do this, but I always encourage people you wanna get the fullest experience with, with wine is join a winery as a member.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Jernigan: And get regular shipments directly from a winery because those bottles they don't sell to in a commercial audience. So that's, that's their best stuff that they only sell to, you know, their direct members. You're going to get the purest, most beautiful expression of what they make in those bottles.

Those bottles will never be found at a wine shop. Right. And you know this. And so to me, I say, Hey, if you really want experience now, again, you're gonna spend a little bit more money. And it's a commitment. You're gonna say like, Hey, I signed up. I get X amount of bottles, and yet the majority of the wine I drink are wine memberships that I have.

[00:56:00] You know, and I have a number of them at this point. And, you know, it's like, but those are bottles that are incredible. And so then when I drink Meiomi, like, yeah, if, if I went to someone's house and they, and they like, Hey, they get out, Meiomi, I'm not even gonna say one comment about it. No, I'm gonna drink it.

We're gonna have a great evening. It's gonna be great. I'm not gonna be like, don't, don't you know that? No, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna be totally on board with that. But if they were to ask me, Hey, do you like Meiomi? Do you, you know, I would say, actually, here's what I drink. You know, I'd love to bring you a bottle sometime now that I know you're a wino.

You know?

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And,

Jeremy Jernigan: and it would be like an invitation to more. To me that's like, and you, you mentioned curiosity. I'm obsessed with curiosity. Yeah. Like the world would be better if we were more curious. I wish curiosity was a fruit of the spirit. If I was writing the list, I would add it in because to me it literally leads to good things in your life.

Andrew Camp: Absolutely. Yeah. Because when we're curious, we're open to new ideas, we're open to exploring. And [00:57:00]

Jeremy Jernigan: you're humble.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: You're, you're, you're not clenching with certainty. You're like, Hey, maybe, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I don't know this. Mm-hmm. Maybe this person sitting across the table from me can, can show me something I've never seen before.

I mean, like such good things come from curiosity. Like if nothing else you get from this conversation, just be more curious in your life and like everything that leads to will be good.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Even at the table, right? Like with food, wine, like when you're curious, you're open to new ideas and we see it with our kids, right?

You know, when our kids are curious about trying something new, they don't know. They're like, oh, this is better than I expected. Like for instance, St. Patrick's Day, you know, I made just a sheet pan dinner of bratwurst potatoes and um, Brussels sprouts, you know, tossed it with whole grain mustard and some maple syrup.

My daughter sees the Brussels sprouts. She's like, no, can I have something else for vegetable? And I'm like, just try it. By the end of the night, she's going back like, are there any more crispy brussel [00:58:00] sprouts? Those are the best. Like, can I have those

Jeremy Jernigan: Well done.

Andrew Camp: You know? And because we were gentle and we're like, Hey, just try it.

If you don't like it, maybe we can talk about another vegetable. But like, you know, and, and it it, and it worked, right? And that's the beauty of seeing something where like they begin to experience the world in new ways beyond Kraft mac and cheese and dyno bites.

Jeremy Jernigan: And I, I, I love this analogy. Okay. So are you a ch, are you a fan of cheese?

Uh,

Andrew Camp: I love, my first job was a fromagier. Okay. So I was a cheese guy in a restaurant.

Jeremy Jernigan: Okay. Wow. This is, you are exceeding my expectations on every level. Um, alright, so lemme ask you this. Have you ever had a cheese you don't, like

Andrew Camp: I've had cheeses that I'm like, eh, it's not my go-to. But I, I usually like, you know, especially if I spend the money for good cheese.

Jeremy Jernigan: So my claim to fame for years is I, I would, I would brag, like I'm the guy that I'll, I, I'm [00:59:00] such a cheese aficionado. I've never had a cheese I don't like. And like anytime someone would have like some funky, gnarly, like that thing is, you know, I would like, this is amazing.

Love it.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: And my wife and I took a trip to France and we had one of the most incredible wine tastings of my life. We did a wine tasting under the Louvre. And it was literally the cellars that used to be where the, the kings would have their, their wine barrels. I mean, just like surreal type stuff, right?

Yeah. And the, the tasting was, is a wine and cheese pairing all around France. Mm-hmm. And so what they did is, is, you know, they would get a wine from this region and then a cheese from the same region, right? Yeah. So like, you eat the food that grows where the wine grows. It's like, that's like ultimate European level.

I, I'm on board. It's so

Andrew Camp: cool. Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: So we're having, I don't even, how many, like, let's say there's 12 different wines we try and then 12 different cheeses, right? And we're going through all these and we get to one of the cheeses and it is [01:00:00] the nastiest, stank, I mean, foul. I don't know what died in this mixture.

And I get to it and I have this moment where I'm like, I can never use my line again.

Andrew Camp: Again.

Jeremy Jernigan: I, I have just discovered a cheese I don't like. Yeah. And it was one of those moments where I'm like, what have I done? You know, like, oh no. Um, but I think this is the beauty of curiosity is like, are there cheeses out there you don't, like, you don't know until you try a whole bunch of cheese.

Like I just think this is the world, you know? And so now I have, like literally in my life, there's been one,

Andrew Camp: one

Jeremy Jernigan: that I can tell you, if you offered it to me, I can't remember what the name of it was. Oh, okay. If you offered to me, I'd be like, no, thank you. I'll pass. Like, and no one else in our group could eat the cheese either.

So I mean, it was like, it was some kind of cheese. I don't remember what it was, but like nobody could get this thing down. Um, but to me, like the world is so big [01:01:00] and we are content with so little

Andrew Camp: yes.

Jeremy Jernigan: In, in the sense not, not in a material sense, in a, an idea sense or a, Hey, I want to know more. I wanna experience more.

It's like. And, and take that with God. Like we're so content to say, I was given these answers when I was in Sunday school and they will work for me the rest of my life.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Jeremy Jernigan: And I just want to go keep going. Right. Ask more questions, dive deeper. And you may not, that's why they call it a slippery slope.

You don't know where it will lead you.

Andrew Camp: No.

Jeremy Jernigan: That's the joy of curiosity.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: But it will lead you to some beautiful things. And my journey with Jesus has been, there's never been a question that I've asked that I'm like, well, I wish I never would've asked that. It's like every single time I'm like, Jesus has even better than I thought.

And I thought he was pretty good.

Andrew Camp: Fair. Although, if I'm honest, there was times where I'm like, I wish I, I was still naive. I wish I still had simplistic [01:02:00] faith,

Jeremy Jernigan: but I don't I bet you don't really? You wish I

Andrew Camp: don't. No.

Jeremy Jernigan: Yeah. The comfort of it,

Andrew Camp: right? Yes.

Jeremy Jernigan: But you wouldn't go back.

Andrew Camp: No, no, no. And

Jeremy Jernigan: even so, you, what you miss is the comfort of knowing that.

And I miss that too,

Andrew Camp: right?

Jeremy Jernigan: Absolutely.

Andrew Camp: Yes.

Jeremy Jernigan: The center is a great place to live.

Andrew Camp: It is. It is. And it did. Yes. Yes. And even two years in, I'm finding more expanse. Like I would never have these conversations if I was still working at a church. Right? How are you?

Jeremy Jernigan: Well, here, here's my encouragement for you and maybe anyone who also is in a similar timeline as you.

Okay. I read this, this, uh, this is in Diana Butler Bass's latest book,

Andrew Camp: right?

Jeremy Jernigan: And she has like this offhanded comment about a conversation she had with an editor of hers. And she said her, her editor gave her one of the best advice that she's ever got, which was never write about anything major in your life until you've had enough time to process it.

And so she asked, okay, well, how. How do you know how much is enough time to process something before you can like move on and write about it? [01:03:00] And she said five years.

Andrew Camp: Wow.

Jeremy Jernigan: I read that after I had just like finished the draft of this and it had just been five years.

Andrew Camp: Wow.

Jeremy Jernigan: And I was like, I don't know who, who this editor is, but they're on to something.

Like there's something about, I think the five year mark where the experience you went through, you've had enough time to make sense of it and heal from it and process it. And if you've done the work, then you get to start seeing the fruit of that. And so you're. You're not even halfway.

Andrew Camp: Thanks.

Jeremy Jernigan: So drink some wine and hang in there.

Andrew Camp: Yes. I will drink my, my Lemelson and hang in there. I will continue to drink good wine and have fun conversations and explore new

Jeremy Jernigan: No, but I

Andrew Camp: turn,

Jeremy Jernigan: I I do say that as an encouragement of if you think you have to have it all figured out, now you have that stress as well,

Andrew Camp: right?

Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: Like, why doesn't it make sense? Why don't, why don't I feel great about this? Why, you know, [01:04:00] which was me for years one and years two and three and four, you know, it's like, what am I doing? What is this? Yeah. I don't understand.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And just to allow the grief cycle, like, you know, it, it's a job. Move on, right?

Like, you know, but there, I think to allow the grief cycle to really play its way out is, is hard. And you have to be patient and, but when you have bills to pay in, a family to take care of and a life to mend. Yeah. You know, that five years feels too much.

Jeremy Jernigan: My, my goal in my future is to someday make as much as I made as a lead pastor.

I'm not there.

Andrew Camp: No, no. And thankfully, I think you and I both have wives that have jobs that

Jeremy Jernigan: Yes.

Andrew Camp: Have sustained.

Jeremy Jernigan: You know, my, my wife is, has been a breadwinner for, for this journey. And, uh, yeah, I mean that I, I like the center takes [01:05:00] care of you. And that's why I tell people, like, I loved, I loved my job, I loved the paycheck I got, it was fantastic.

Maybe someday with the work that I'm doing, I can match that. Like that, that's literally kind of like my goal in my head of like, if I could ever match that because like, I really believe in what I'm doing. It just doesn't pay the same as, you know, it paid in the center.

Andrew Camp: No it doesn't, but it's, it's fun.

Jeremy Jernigan: The wine is better.

Andrew Camp: The wine is better. It's very true. Communion is better.

Jeremy Jernigan: Yes, it, it's very true.

Andrew Camp: Well, Jeremy, it's a question I ask all of my guests as we wrap up and you've hit on it. But I think a summary would be nice. What's the story you want the church to tell?

Jeremy Jernigan: I think the story is there's, there's more out there than we've settled for. And if we are in the center and everything's working, it's easy to believe it's all there is.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Jernigan: And yet I would encourage the church there is [01:06:00] more and Jesus is inviting us to more, and in particular, Jesus is inviting us to the edge.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: Where there's a unique kind of truth as, as Richard Rohr has uh, explained. And that's been my story. That's been what I have found. That's what I have been connecting with so many people on in their own journeys. And that's what I would want for everyone in the church. And so I think you can exist.

This is the thing. I'm not outside the circle. I'm still in the circle. So, you know, in my whole analogy, the center and I we're in the same loop. Right? Right. We're, we're just in different spots of it. So I don't view them as the enemy. I don't view them as, you know, they need to be converted or anything like that.

It's just, let's figure out the best way to find and experience Jesus. And I would encourage you, if you're right in the center of it, come to the edge a little bit. Mm-hmm. See, see what happens. And if you could do it by choice, it'll be a lot easier.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yeah. And maybe it's not moving from Meiomi to a single vineyard.

Lim will sin wine. That is [01:07:00] beyond my price point most days. But maybe it's just a different bottle. A slightly different, right. Like

Jeremy Jernigan: it's not, or even just trying another bottle.

Andrew Camp: Bottle. Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: Right,

Andrew Camp: right.

Jeremy Jernigan: Like how often do we just go, I like Meiomi, I'll drink Mao the rest of my life and I'll never, you know, try other bottles, which even like this, I was excited to try May.

I've never had it.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Jeremy Jernigan: And so when you're like, when you pitch this idea, I was like, I later told you I've never had Meiomi. Right. I would love an excuse to do it.

Andrew Camp: Right. Um, and then some fun questions about food, and you may have hit, hit on it already. What's one food you refuse to eat?

Jeremy Jernigan: Mayonnaise.

Andrew Camp: Mayonnaise.

Jeremy Jernigan: It, it has to be blended into something where I can't taste the flavor of mayonnaise. Okay. Mayonnaise and coconut are the two things that trigger my gag reflex and I have no idea why.

Andrew Camp: Alright.

Jeremy Jernigan: If they're blended into something else that I can't taste that flavor uniquely, I'm fine. So if you put mayonnaise in a sauce and it's blended, I'm fine.

If [01:08:00] you, if I can taste the mayonnaise, I'm in trouble.

Andrew Camp: Okay. Fair enough. What's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Jeremy Jernigan: Gosh,

I once had a bone in filet.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

Jeremy Jernigan: Have you ever heard of that?

Andrew Camp: I think I've heard of it once or twice. Yes.

Jeremy Jernigan: I was in Texas, as you would expect, from a great steak. And this restaurant, I'm a filet guy, I love filets. And they had a bone in filet and I was like, I've never even heard of that as a thing. And it was probably the greatest steak I've ever had in my life.

Like literally melted in my mouth, like unbelievable.

Andrew Camp: And I thought we could be friends.

Jeremy Jernigan: Why can we not be friends?

Andrew Camp: I don't like filet. I think it's overpriced. There's no fat, there's no flavor. Like

Jeremy Jernigan: what?

Andrew Camp: It's,

Jeremy Jernigan: you're kidding me right now. It's, you are not serious with this take.

Andrew Camp: Give me a New York. Give me a [01:09:00] ribeye any day.

You

Jeremy Jernigan: like the fat.

Andrew Camp: Of course. You

Jeremy Jernigan: want all the marbling.

Andrew Camp: I want all the marbling. I don't, I want, I want some. You

Jeremy Jernigan: seen what that looks like?

Andrew Camp: Oh yeah. It's delicious. Prime. Ugh. Come on. You don't maintain this.

Jeremy Jernigan: Were you ever a, were you ever a server?

Andrew Camp: No.

Jeremy Jernigan: Did you ever work in a restaurant like for

Andrew Camp: steaks? I was a chef.

I was a chef. Yeah. I cooked steaks. I, I've, I've butchered, I've, you know,

Jeremy Jernigan: and

Andrew Camp: I've,

Jeremy Jernigan: and that's your, that's your go-to.

Andrew Camp: Oh, yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: I worked at Texas Roadhouse and

Andrew Camp: Well, that's, that's of stake would see all these, that, that's may of, of stakes. Like,

Jeremy Jernigan: okay. Fair, fair. I'll, I'll receive that. Andrew, that's a fair criticism coming from you.

I receive that. I remember thinking like, why would anyone order these ribeyes? Like when you could get these filets were like, way better cuts of meat. But I guess, yes, it's all real. I, I'm sure if you made us ribeyes, it would probably blow my mind.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Maybe [01:10:00] again, we need to do a side-by-side tasting and then have maybe bordea and.

Napa cabs. Um,

Jeremy Jernigan: but to me, like a, a good cab with a filet, that would be like if you had a last meal type deal, you know, like

Andrew Camp: Well that was my next question. Oh, you know, there, 'cause there's a conversation amongst chefs about last meals. As in, if you only had one last meal to enjoy, what would it be? So if Jeremy had one last meal, would it be cab in filet?

Jeremy Jernigan: I think it would be, it would be a bone in filet with, uh, a Bordeaux blend.

Andrew Camp: Okay. From Napa or are you gonna go French style?

Jeremy Jernigan: I'm gonna go French. I'm gonna go right from Bordeaux Cab heavy.

Andrew Camp: Cab heavy. Okay.

Jeremy Jernigan: Merlo.

Andrew Camp: All right. So we're more left bank. If my geography I drinks,

Jeremy Jernigan: I'll drink some effing Merlot on my last, yeah, on my last meal

Andrew Camp: because Merlot's good.

Jeremy Jernigan: But, oh, I love Merlott. That's why people dog. And I'm like, look, I'll drink it. Like I got no qualms on Merlot. Yeah. Um. That to me. So like seafood is the other one that I would maybe, [01:11:00] like, I love crab legs. Like

Andrew Camp: yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: I'm obsessed with crab legs and, and living in Oregon, you know, Dungeness crab is like so good.

Yeah. But the, the, I think that the ultimate pairing I've ever had in my life is a great steak with a great glass of wine and, you know, as you know, a lot of food like dominates wine where then all of a sudden you're like, this wine doesn't taste good anymore.

Andrew Camp: No.

Jeremy Jernigan: The the, the steak in in Cabernet pairing is hard to beat.

I mean, that, it's like,

Andrew Camp: yeah,

Jeremy Jernigan: that's fair. It just goes so well, and it's almost like this was meant to be, I don't know. I feel like it had to be that.

Andrew Camp: No, it's fair.

Jeremy Jernigan: What's yours?

Andrew Camp: My last meal?

Jeremy Jernigan: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: I don't know. It would probably be like calling a. A chef and being like, Hey, can you just cook for me? Like, I, I just wanna be fed by, by a great chef with great wine and not think, and not think in that way of like ordering.

But like, just give me your best and let me go [01:12:00] out with like

Jeremy Jernigan: some something crafted Just for you. Yeah,

Andrew Camp: just, yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: Okay. Have you ever seen the movie Pig?

Andrew Camp: No. But I was reading about it in your book and was like, maybe I need to find this movie.

Jeremy Jernigan: You need to because he's a chef. Yeah. That's his whole storyline.

And there is a scene in that that would uniquely resonate with you.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

Jeremy Jernigan: Well like even more than it did with me and it was profound for me. This, I'm giving you homework. Okay. Let the listeners, let the listeners note. I've given Andrew a homework assignment. I want you to watch this movie. I think you will absolutely resonate with it in a profound way.

Andrew Camp: Okay. And then for me to you, have you watched About's Feast?

Jeremy Jernigan: No, I've, I've heard about this though. Uh, Gela Craiger was, I think talking about it.

Andrew Camp: Yes. Yes. You

Jeremy Jernigan: need to, are you, are you a big fan?

Andrew Camp: Oh, it's one of the most profound movies, and I think it actually illustrates your book.

Jeremy Jernigan: Is that the one that's really old or No,

Andrew Camp: no, it's from the 1980s.

Um, it's based on an Esoc [01:13:00] Denison short story. Um, won Academy Award. Best foreign film.

Jeremy Jernigan: Okay. I'm, I'm going to watch it.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Jernigan: And you better watch Pig.

Andrew Camp: Okay. Fair enough, and maybe we'll come back on and talk about

Jeremy Jernigan: That would be amazing. Follow up for our homework assignments.

Andrew Camp: Yes, yes. So, awesome. Well, Jeremy, if people wanna find out more about you, learn about your work work, where do they find you?

Jeremy Jernigan: So my website is jeremy jernigan.com, just my name. That's where I have everything. So I host a weekly podcast on Sundays where I do a Bible message In 10 minutes or less every other week I do a Cabernet Pray podcast episode. That's longer form. I do a weekly blog and then all the other stuff that I'm working on.

Is there, and then edge of the inside is the website specifically for the book. You can find out extra content from it, um, stuff that we're doing on it, and then all the different forms, um, doing, uh, signed copies as well, if someone's interested in [01:14:00] that. And I do a typewriter note. I'm a big typewriter guy.

Okay. So yes, you get a signed copy, you get a typewriter note for me as well.

Andrew Camp: Okay? Awesome. Yeah. Do check out Jeremy's book Do by, um, the edge of the inside, um, by the time this podcast releases. The book is available, um, wherever you find your books. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing it with others.

Thanks for joining us on this episode of the Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. Until next time, bye.