The Biggest Table

Episode 46 (David Zahl)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast we explore the table, food, eating and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.

And today I'm joined by Dave Zahl.

Dave is the founder and director of Mockingbird Ministries, editor-in-chief of the Mockingbird website, and co-host of both the mocking cast and the brothers Zahl podcasts.

He and his wife Kate, live in Charlottesville, Virginia with their three sons, where he also serves on the staff of Christ Episcopal Church. Zahl is the author of Seculosity: How Career, Parenting, Technology, Food, Politics, and Romance became our New Religion and what to do about it, and Low Anthropology: the Unlikely Key to a Gracious View of Others and Yourself.

His latest book, the Big Relief, the Urgency of Grace Four Worn Out World came out in April, 2025 from Brazos Press. His writing has been featured in the Washington Post Plow, Christianity Today, and The Guardian among other venues.

So thanks for [00:01:00] joining me today, Dave. I'm excited about this conversation.

Dave Zahl: Thanks for having me, Andrew. Really glad to be here.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. So I'm gonna start here. Like what, why another book about Grace? Like what made you think like we need to talk about Grace? Um, you know, when. There are some al already great books about Grace. And so like what, what do you feel like needed new or reminded, um, for readers about Grace?

Dave Zahl: That's a, that's a wonderful question. I, I, and it is like a sort of a scary arena to jump into 'cause there's so many of the books that have been formative for me about Christianity have been books about grace and I'm thinking of Ner Philip Yancy or just um. There, there's a, there's a, there's a large Ann Lamott's written about it.

There's, there's a large scope of people who've written well, uh, about Grace. I think though, um, it's almost like asking why another sermon, you know? Right. Like that grace is not [00:02:00] something, it's, it's so, it's so restorative and healing and, um, and, uh, but it's also so.

One of the great privileges of being a person in this form of sort of public ministry is trying to, you know, return myself as well as those who I'm speaking to, to this kind of other worldly. You know, stream of life known as grace, that we, we constantly sort of just magnetically, almost pulled away from through our own whatever, our own wounds or our own, the systems we live in, or simply just distractibility.

So I thought that it's. It's also one of these words or concepts that, um, it helps to be, have, have refresh, uh, points of reference and fresh stories and just, um, when I was researching this book, I was reading books about [00:03:00] Grace and there's a lot of really good ones. But then, you know, then you'd stumble onto something that felt a little like, oh, that.

15 years ago or that felt like slightly different. It's not that God's grace has changed, but the, the ability to effectively communicate it, there's always little undulations and there's spiritual conditions shift a little bit. And so I felt that I'd had, um, I. Some purchase in talking about grace over the years with Mockingbird.

And, and I'd been asked to write a book about Grace. That's another reason to write it. Yeah. They thought it was marketable and so, um, all of the above, but I mean, the, the ultimate reason. That I could say, uh, is that I'm a person who lives under the law. Uh, meaning I have very loud, sort of inner critical faculties and a very much constantly, um, not, I wouldn't call it scrupulosity of some kind, but it, it, I'm, I'm very, very aware of the ways in which I follow short and I am [00:04:00] drawn.

I need personally. To come back to the well of Grace. And so what better way to do that from sort of to operate outta my own personal need, um, than to kind of write a book to myself almost.

Andrew Camp: No, I appreciate that. Like, 'cause, um, like you said, yeah, grace, how we communicate, grace can change over the, the years and a lot has changed in, you know, 15, 20 years it feels like.

Um. You know, and at the same time then we're, you know, any of us who follow Jesus, like we constantly live with this burden or law or conscious that, you know, is seeking to justify ourselves. And um, and then even when I look around, like there seems to be like everybody wants grace, but it feels like it's harder to bestow grace, um, amongst people, especially people we disagree with.

And so it's just. Yeah. Like everybody wants grace, but nobody wants to give, be the first to give grace. It feels [00:05:00] like,

Dave Zahl: yo, I, yeah. And I put myself in that, like, yeah, that number I, I, I love it when it's coming for me, but when it's aimed at someone I don't like, or someone I really think needs to. Say sorry, in these specific ways or make this kind of movement, um, then I really don't like it.

So, um, there's something that we resist about it. Something I resist about grace that I, I find to be, uh, pretty close to the core of my heart. And, and so when you're talking about grace, you end up getting down deep and you, you kind of, uh, you scrape into the, the marrow of a person's life because. Deepest grudges and their deepest fears and their, whatever the, the whatever guilt they carry.

These are, these are not things that people, uh, they're, they're not far from. Um. The viscera, you know? So yeah, it's, it's can be [00:06:00] exhausting to write even a short book about grace as I did. But, um, I think it's worthwhile 'cause most of the people I know who initially are love, are drawn to Christianity.

There's some, we will, they will talk about grace in some, uh, way that they, they couldn't believe there was some sort of second chance. There was some kind of love that, that transcended earning. Um. That that's deeply appealing to human beings of all eras, stripes, categories. Where we go with that can is usually where we go wrong or where we get complicated or things get obscured.

But, um. Yeah, that's what I look, I also look around, I, as I put in the subtitle, I look around at a world that is peer groups, uh, and friends and, and enemies. You know, I don't like to think I have a lot of enemies, but I look around and I see very, very exhausted graceless age. Yeah. Um, and that pains me.

Andrew Camp: No.

[00:07:00] And you know, in secularity you sort of. Talk about like this longing for enoughness, which I feel like taps into the heart, and part of what grace is, is like, am I enough? Who am, you know, will will somebody see me as enough? You know, you talk about it as this deep longing that is slightly ironic because it's this longing we all share, but it's also the, the, the value or this longing that sometimes keeps us apart because in our enoughness we look towards other things.

You know, for, for satisfaction or for belonging or, um, for identity. And so then that is what pulls us into these, these silos or these camps, you know, in which, you know, we're stuck in this rut of having to perform constantly.

Dave Zahl: Yes. I think that that the reason that book hit a.

That's why, because people are so, um, [00:08:00] familiar with the dynamics of sort of, I, I, I never felt like I was enough in youth group, so I'm gonna, I, but I, I do feel pretty good at my yoga studio, or I do feel pretty good. I feel like I'm a part of something. I'm accepted. I'm a whole, when I'm part of this, you know, activist group or political, you know, peers or, or simply.

My office job, what, whatever ha, however it may be. But what we find is that the, the performative ladder climbing instinct follows us into those and, um, into those silos. And of course, uh, in, when you're dealing with a kind of a, any kind of money making, um. Companies leverage our feelings of not enoughness to get our dollars.

And it gets very complicated very quickly. Uh, but I'm, I'm a, a reason I wrote that book is 'cause I found myself in those silos. I wasn't like, somehow, I hadn't [00:09:00] successfully negotiated around them. Even as a Christian, I was very much concerned with how busy I was and I was very much concerned with.

The rate at which I was sort of progressing or, or the way I was viewed online versus in person. There's so much there. So yeah, all my books are have born out of personal need.

Andrew Camp: .No, I, right. It seems that's the best writing is when we, you know, can struggle with the ideas and you know, be reminded of what we need to be reminded of, and.

You know, doing a podcast has helped me sort of sort through ideas and what conversation, what, where, where do I need to be reminded of or where do I need to wrestle with? And, um, you know, and it's, it's been challenging but enjoyable. My wife will always be like, so what are you gonna take from one of those podcasts?

Like, how is it not just an intellectual exercise, but an actual, like, transformative process for you? Uh, and so, you know, it's not [00:10:00] the same as writing, but I feel like there's, there's some correlation of. Wrestling through ideas and who, who do I want to be as a person?

Dave Zahl: You know, I'm sure as your work as a, as a chef, that that seems to, that that involves your hands and that involves a different form of probably side of your brain and

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Dave Zahl: All these things work together. Yep. It's hard. It's hard to separate them off, wall 'em off. Even, even what we've tried to,

Andrew Camp: no. Right. Yeah. And then you, you also talk about, you know, you see that this, this world is this worn out, exhausted world. And you know, in later chapters you, you bring in Hartmut, who's this great German sociologist who, um, I've benefited from his work, you know, from reading Andy Root, but also reading some of his books, which aren't easy reading, um, by any stretch of the means, but like heart mode, like diagnoses, these problems of acceleration.

You know, this idea that modernity has accelerated life for us and that. We also want control. Um, you know, we wanna seek to control and manipulate [00:11:00] everything so that, you know, the world works out for us. And so like how, how have you seen like, acceleration and even this idea of control weed, you know, push grace maybe to the fringes for people?

Dave Zahl: Well, gosh, I mean, even, well, you could talk about it in, in church circles, if.

The attempt to kind of keep up and to add more services to, you know, to be more and more available to folks, you know that you're always on and that, you know, you don't just need. An evening service on a Sunday as well as three morning services. You also need a midweek thing and, and you're just kind of trying to be all things to all people and, and in, in terms of roles, even in, in a, in a ecclesial context.

Like there's an acceleration of what's expected of say, a pastor. 'cause part of those are like economic realities. Those very, very, um. Points of, uh, exhaustion and burnout and, [00:12:00] and, and weariness and all of a sudden you're proclaiming grace perhaps, but you're doing it at a speed that completely undercuts what you're saying because it looks like you're trying to.

Perform. 'cause you, you've also not, not only are you a fundraiser and a preacher, and an administrator, you are also now a brand. And you, you have to produce content and all of these things. That's those sorts of demands. Um, run a person ragged. But that happens in, in every other, uh, arena that I can tell.

Uh, I was thinking today about, you know, youth sports is one area that's, that's on my mind. But, uh, Jason Gay was writing something in the, uh, wall Street Journal this week about confessions of a mediocre youth, sports parent, and. He says, I don't know, a single parent who doesn't feel like the system that's go, that's going on with youth sports in America and if you have a child, it's not really, it's more sort of a middle class [00:13:00] thing, I guess.

But it's, it's, you know, that's not really even true anymore because one of my sons was. Was a lacrosse player, so he's dealing with the sort of wealthier kids and other ones is a football player and a baseball player. And that's like the, definitely the other economic end of the spectrum. And everyone, it's more practices, more games.

You're away on Sunday, you're further away from your kids. Like it's, it's, there's more being asked of children, more being asked of parents and, um, traveling further and further and further. It's just, it's somewhat innocuous example, but I also have seen. Marriages fall apart because of travel sports. And I've seen ki kids have nervous breakdowns.

So I, I'm, I think Rosa's, uh, diagnosis of acceleration, it doesn't just apply to cell phones and, uh, social media. It applies to sort of all things. And, um, the shelf life of something, even the shelf life of a book is, it's much shorter than it used to be. Everything is, um, you, [00:14:00] you combine that with the attention economy and the way that.

Uh, the way that, uh, what is rewarded with clicks and attention, and you get a recipe for a lot of, uh, um. Criticism, judgment, anger, resentment. Mm-hmm. Sadness, exhaustion, and alienation. And it's, again, it's, it's very sad to me. So I think Rosa and I've, I discovered Rosa like a lot of people through Andy Root.

I think he's one of these people I, I've tried to bring him into the big relief. He's one of these thinkers like Charles Taylor, who kind of needs to be translated a little bit. Yep.

But his idea of, uh, you know, uh, um, a world of acceleration is also a world that holds out the possibility of mastery. We're trying to master things all the time.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Dave Zahl: And, um, but in fact the deeper. What we need is not [00:15:00] necessarily to slow down, but we need resonance, which is to sort of take things as they are, except that there's, you know, these moments where we, where we're confronted with the fact that there is goodness and truth in God.

And, uh, those things exist outside of our, our ability to manufacture, uh, or even respond. And that's those, those are the moments that after, and that's.

Tries to convey a little bit of some of Rosa's thoughts as well as my own, because moments of resonance are usually moments of grace rather than moments. They're certainly not moments of increased acceleration.

Andrew Camp: No, and that's what's yeah, resonance. It's this weird concept because you know, as Rosa talks about it, and even Andy and his books, like, it's not something we manufacture, but it's something we.

We can anticipate but never expect. Like it's this weird tension that like we can put ourselves in positions for resonance where it's, we, [00:16:00] we encounter the other, whether it's creation, whether it's other people, or whether it's spirituality. Jesus, God, you know, and, and they surprise us, but there's nothing we can do to manufacture resonance.

Um, you know, we're surprised by it. And I think sometimes Grace shows up that way where we're. You know, we can't manufacture grace per se, but you know, when it shows up, it, it can surprise and overwhelm us. Um,

Dave Zahl: I like that use of the word surprise. That's one of the definitions I try to throw out in the book is Grace is usually like a positive, surprising interruption.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Dave Zahl: And yeah, if we could master or be in control of, it wouldn't be. It would lose its power to, to heal and to restore. But the same thing is true with grace. I think that the, and, and it's sort of, but there's the, and yet [00:17:00] many of us have these experiences of grace. The experience of falling in love is an experience of grace that you do not.

You play a part in, but you do not, um, dictate you fall, you know? Yeah. It's a, and, and you meet someone. Um, that's why it's always fun to ask people how they met, because there's always some story that doesn't involve their agency. Right? I mean, maybe there are some, but those are really boring stories that are sort of like, well, I, I had a five, she had a five plan, and it worked out.

I'm, I imagine there's some prox, some form of those stories that exist, but they're very few and far between. Most of them are happy accidents and the best things in our life. And like having a child too, you don't know what this child's gonna be. You don't know what they're gonna be like, but you'll experience grace.

Andrew Camp: No. And yeah, the surprise of Grace, you know? And, um, you also talk about, uh, and I've heard you talk about it on other podcasts of, you know, the. [00:18:00] The person to person, relationality of grace, you know? And you, uh, I was listening to a podcast, which you did with Dan Koch, and you know, this, you talk about Carl Rogers, the famous psychologist in this, um, unconditional positive regard.

Um, you know, and then you, you mentioned your psychologist, your therapist definition, which I found, I can't remember. Um,

Dave Zahl: uh, Dorothy Martin. Yeah. She called, uh, she, she referred to Grace as, uh. Indiscriminate, non-contingent indiscriminate alliance with the essential personhood of the other.

Andrew Camp: So,

Dave Zahl: uh, can you unpack, like,

Andrew Camp: those are some big, big words, you know, or like, you know, can you unpack that or like, what, what, how does that, what does that mean or what does that look like?

Dave Zahl: I think she's saying that it's, it's a, it's a, it's a positive regard that is not contingent upon the one being regarded. Um, living up to some standard or being even captivating. [00:19:00] There's something about you. Uh, what what matters in this situation is not how I see myself or even the attributes that I bring to the table.

It's how the other person sees me. And usually when you hear people talk about what they love about the other person, it's oftentimes not the same thing as that person likes, or. Be some of these strange things that they find quite frustrating about themselves.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Dave Zahl: And or, you know, but, but, and, but love and like, sort of lasting bonds of love.

When you say the non-contingent thing, uh, those bonds are, are usually, uh, solidified in moments of weakness and failure and shortcoming and, and loss. Grief. Um, and so when, you know, when, when, when there's a reason. To be rejected and the person sticks around. Uh, and it has to do with the person who's sticking around rather than the one who's maybe acting out in [00:20:00] some way.

Um. Those are, that's grace. And that has, that has, that has a potency to it in relationships that you just see what happens. Just look at what people are like when they fall in love. Mm-hmm. Or when they feel loved in that way. When a child feels loved in that way, securely attached is the, is the, is the other sort of way that psychologists talk about it.

Um, it's not magic, it's not like a formula. Um, 'cause then again, it wouldn't be grace if it was.

Nonetheless, I think that it's, we, in those moments, we know that we're close to the heartbeat of things. Mm-hmm. We know that there's something of the divine that, um, that we, we we're, we're, we're, we're very near to, uh, whether we can articulate it or not.

Andrew Camp: No, for sure. And I think those moments where somebody shows us grace can be the avenue through which the door of, of the divine grace of Jesus' grace can be open to us.

Um, you know, and I, as [00:21:00] you were talking, I remember, you know, when Claire, my wife and I were dating, I shared with her some struggles and, you know, she just held me and, you know, showed grace, you know, and loved me despite my, my sin and my failures. And then I was later in therapy and my therapist was like, Hey, she opened the door to grace.

Now walk through it. Like, you know, that is the moment of grace of you, you know, being loved. And so now like, can you be loved by Jesus? Um, and it was a powerful moment that I, you know, it's obviously etched in my brain. This is 16 years ago. Um, and I remember both instances that happened, you know, very clearly.

That's beautiful.

Dave Zahl: This is what I mean. I think why, why we crave romantic relationships in some levels. We want to be known and loved. And, and another word for that is to. You know, is grace, uh, 'cause when we talk about being known and loved, it's not that we want someone necessarily to, we want them to see all of us, not just the good things, right?

We, we, [00:22:00] we never meaning like, I don't want them just to see the bad things, but that, that's, it includes the whole person, which includes the blind spots and the struggle and the sin and the, the, um, the places of, of darkness.

It's what I need more of in my life. It's what other people need more of. And I think that this is, this tells us, this gives us a picture of who God is. So when we talk about God being gracious, we talk about Jesus being one who's full of grace and truth. Like this is the language I have to start from the bottom up to get there.

And that's part of how, uh, this book certainly tries to build out. Um. These experiences of deep, uh, there's an affective element that I really tried to highlight in this book while keeping it, you know, aimed at people's minds a little bit. But I think that if you're, if you stray too far from the heart, um, you've stray from grace.

So, um, you can't be [00:23:00] intellectualized or abstracted into, uh, into words too much.

Andrew Camp: No. You know, and that's, that's the tension we all live with. This grace is we wanna un understand it. Or at least for me, you know, I'm a more academic, I live in the mind. Uh, I love, you know, reading. Not many people like to just pick up Hartmut Rosa and read him for fun, you know, but like, yeah.

You know, but, so it's like that tension I feel in myself of like, okay, I've experienced God's grace and yet I, it's never a one and done deal. Like I need a constant. Experience of it. I need resonance to sh you know, those moments of inbreaking. Um, yeah. You know, and, and that's the challenge I think we all face in, in the spiritual life of like, okay, I've experienced God's grace and yet there will be moments because of the world, because of our, our sin habits or, you know, um, distorted habits where we're pulled away from grace.

And so how do we get pulled back [00:24:00] into this heart? Um. You know, that's well in,

Dave Zahl: in, in the book I try to highlight various different aspects of it. Yeah. So I think that there are times when if you're a prisoner and you've done something terribly wrong and you've been like, there's gonna be some sort of absolution is going to be a form of grace that you're very keenly interested in.

But if you're someone who's simply racked up a lot of debt, well then kind of forgiveness is gonna be something that's gonna be very interesting to you.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Dave Zahl: If you're someone who feels terrible about themselves, then a sort of a form of imputation or, or, uh, might, might, might speak to you more clearly, but if you're dying, if you're physically I, um, then, uh, actual sort of salvation and rescue is going to be something, an avenue for grace into your life.

For me, I mean, the, probably the more humdrum thing is like, I'm just a contemporary American on this treadmill of acceleration. And so the, the invitation that, that I can, uh, to play rather than produce or to [00:25:00] rest rather than to speed up. Um, these are day by day, hour by hour dynamics in a person's life.

It's not always these, um, once was lost, but now found moments, although those are real. Um, yeah. Um, I wanted to have the book be able to include all various, uh, menu, shall we say, right. Of, of, of how grace might play out in a person's life.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Now, in your chapters on rest and play, were, I, I found the most, you know, to, for lack of a better word, most resonant for me.

You know, just, okay. What, you know, because you mentioned, I think, in the play chapter, like, what would you do? If you could do something just for the sheer joy of it without any production required or, you know, um, which is such a interesting question that I don't think many of us would associate with grace, um, per se, maybe, or, you know, and so it's, yeah, I found that just a [00:26:00] fascinating question of like, what would I do if I could just do it for the sheer joy of it?

Dave Zahl: Yeah. In that, in that, in that chapter, I'm trying to talk about grace in terms of the distinction between the law and grace. Mm-hmm. The law being like, I have to do something in order to get something else. Yet there's, it's always if and if, then if I am a good boy, then I'll get my dessert, or if I, you know.

Work out hard enough, then I will get strong. Like, what if the, what if the, if then what if the conditionality was removed? What if all there was was sort of delight and gift and, and you could do something, not because it was gonna bring you another end, but, uh, the reality of grace would be that, um, everything that has been done, uh, needs to be done, has been done.

Therefore, what remains is, uh. The, the delight in God's creation or however, however that manifests in your own life. Of course, that's a very scary place. Some for some of us too. [00:27:00] Yeah. Because it's not always that cut and dry. And our, our passions change and we second guess ourselves, but freedom, I think grace is the word.

That's all that should be associated with freedom. Um, and that's that, that, that's what that play is usually what love looks like in the key of freedom.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And that's why as a dad I sometimes have such a hard time engaging my girls with play. Like, um, you know, it can be a challenge to get into that mode because the burdens, the anxiety, the, the stress of life, you know?

Um, and so when they just wanna play it, you know, there's that in internal struggle I have, and I, you know, I'm sure most parents have felt it, but if I can let go or just, you know. There was a few months, a couple summers ago where we would just do dance parties in the evening or just be si like, you know, and, and they were fun moments, you know, and I could let down.

And so when you can engage in play, especially with a kid, I think you begin to see [00:28:00] that grace show up.

Dave Zahl: That's one of the great things about kids, right? Yeah. They're present tense. I mean, that's why I bring Jesus' interactions with kids into those chapters, but. I think we're, we're in very similar stages of life, but like midlife forties.

Yep. For me, for most people are, that's the apex of striving and having to prove and provide, and their bills need to be paid, and you want to keep those kids safe and you want to give them opportunities and that's, that's a moment where you're just, um, the law is everything. You know, you, you know that, you know what you need to do, you just can't do it or you have to do it, or, um, and it's, that's to be in touch with chil children.

I think sometimes the fact that we get to raise children in that moment can be a gift from God. It can be an extra burden. Yeah. If we think that we have got, we're totally in control of everything about this child. Um, which a lot of parents today, I think have been led to believe that, uh, not only are [00:29:00] they here to steward.

Love their child, but to control their child and the world that has their child experiences it, which is a deeply anxiety producing endeavor. Yeah. But um. If you have a, some kind of sense that there, that God is real and God cares, then maybe there's a way to enjoy the playfulness and the present tenseness that kids draw you out of.

'cause you, you come in, at the end of your day, you're thinking about all the stuff you didn't do that you need to do the next day, and all of a sudden you're hit with a dance party. And that's, that's life. Like, that's, they're, they're, they're living, you're, you're living in the future or the right. They're living in the present, which is what ance always does for you.

Right? Yeah. But I've, I've been that in that moment it's like, oh, I just can't talk about this right now. You just can't do this right now. Yeah. You guys wanna play horse? I, I'm, and then, you know, five minutes later I'm like, shoot, I, that's what I, that's what I, that, that's where my, that's where I should

Andrew Camp: be.

Yeah. No, and not only [00:30:00] demands of work, but then you have bodies that begin to betray us, whether it's knee surgery or I found out yesterday I get, I have to have a root canal. Um, our houses start breaking down and you need to do repairs and, um. If life is, you know, I found that, you know, when appliances break down, cars break down, and health breaks down and it's all at once, and then all of a sudden you feel just under the weight of life.

Dave Zahl: Yeah. The, the decay. The entropy. Yeah. To which so much of, I'm, I'm in that, I'm just, you speaking my language. You mentioned knee surgery. I've just had knee surgery. Right. I've also, this, the knee surgery happened on the exact same month when I was told I needed readers to read books and Okay screens, and I just feel like, okay, I guess on the downward slope here.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. So. And, and in this moment though, like those are the moments where Grace can show up. You know, if, if we're [00:31:00] open to it, like again, you and I, big fans of Andy and Andy would say that, you know, in those moments of desolation, you know the other person and you know, whether it's a physical person or Jesus can show up and meet us in that ministry of consolation.

Um. But that's such a hard moment.

Dave Zahl: Yeah. You wish it consolation didn't often involve desolation, but, um, his, his new definition of evangelism, of being sort of following Jesus into sorrow.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Dave Zahl: With words of consolation. Um, I find that to be very convicting. Um. Because there's no, because it is, it is grace.

'cause there's no reason to presume that when you're in a desolate place that there was any reason the whole po the whole experience of being in a desolate place is the experience that there is no consolation. And so it has to come from the outside. It has to come from outside of you. Right. And, um, that's often where we encounter God.

I think that's, that's the pattern certainly that I see in most of [00:32:00] my, um, most spiritually. Um. Sophisticated or wise or enlightened friends, and I've, to the extent that I've experienced God, it usually is the point of need rather than, um, blessing and, and grace is what, what greater consolation is there than the grace of God, right?

It says, um, you can't, but God can or you aren't what God is. I mean, these, all of these. Uh, con cons, consol. People get worried that I've reducing Christianity to nothing but consolation. But I always wanna say like, well, it's certainly not less than that because for most people, most people, that's a way to basically take away any consolations to say, is to bring in all these other aspects of the faith.

And before long you have a faith that just feels like another a.

You, you personally have no connection to anymore. The consolation [00:33:00] is, um, again, we're right at the heartbeat of not only life, but God.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. You know, and this podcast also focuses on food and the table, you know, and obviously I believe table food hospitality is, is a key arena and key conduit of grace. And so like how do you see.

Food, you know, in the table and hospitality, you know, food in its totality, right? Like it's a big, big idea. But like how, how can this idea of the table bring us into a realm of God's grace that maybe other activities can't?

Dave Zahl: Well, sometimes I think about the fact that, you know, um. I was just reading the, uh, the HA project, hail Mary by and Andy Weir, and it's about an astronaut who's in space and you know, that you're having to eat these like tubes and paste and stuff like that.

And, and I'm always a big sci-fi person or, you know, eating freeze dried [00:34:00] meals that are disgusting and yeah. Uh. What, what feels more like love than to be someone to cook a meal for you and to serve it for you. That it doesn't taste like sludge or just nutrients to keep you alive, but there's taste, there's, there's, there's artistry, there's thinking and there's care, and there's all this stuff that doesn't have to be, you know?

Mm-hmm. And I find that to be a way, uh, in an avenue into grace to say nothing of the fact.

If you want to get to know someone, have a meal with them and, and, you know, certainly that was the case for Jesus, but, um, I'm also, I've always been a foodie. I, I like food. I just, when it comes to pleasure centers, that, that's mine. Like, I, I have to be, um, careful about not eating too much all the time. Uh, I just really like food and I think that the abundance of it, the abundance of [00:35:00] taste, the abundance of love that expressed.

A huge, huge, just, um, I like the physical element of it too. You know, I'm, I'm not, I have, I'm an Episcopalian. I have friends that are very Anglo-Catholic and they talk, the way they talk about the sacraments can sometimes be very, um. They always talk about refreshment and eucharistic body and blood sort of stuff.

And I sometimes that language leaves me cold, but then I think about how food can be such an agent of grace for me to taste something. Um, not just to, um. Not just to be, uh, nourished, but to be to, to, to, to, to have, to sit down with someone and experience something together. I mean, what's more fun, I, I saw something, maybe get a kick out of this some, some Twitter guy was saying basically every man in their primary, the primary [00:36:00] criteria.

For a friend in your forties for a man is someone that you can send pictures of sandwiches to.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, or pizza. I have like three or four people in my life who send me pictures of like tacos or pizza or sandwiches or meals.

Andrew Camp: Yep.

Dave Zahl: And that's, that's a connect, but that's a deep connection for us. That's a joy thing. That's a. So I'm just riffing. Food can become all sorts of, uh, uh, guilt and, uh, condemnation in the way that people feel about their bodies is through the area that's very, very, uh, radioactive for some folks.

But for me, it's, I find it to be a, a wonderful source of god's, you know, creativity and

Andrew Camp: joy. No, it is, right. Yeah. And, you know, getting in the right side of what you should eat or could eat and, you know, um. Eating the right things or the right diets or don't do this or getting rid of, like, there's a lot of guilt [00:37:00] associated with, with food, um, you know, and our diet culture.

Um, you know, and then yeah, there are dark side, you know, eating disorders and people do have, um, distorted. Um, and damaged relationships with food that I think we do need to be aware of. But um, yeah, that joy of food, you know, and, um, you remember those instances where you shared an amazing sandwich, an amazing meal with friends, you know, like, and, and it's better when they're people are with you to share that, that joy.

Dave Zahl: It's communal. I mean, so many of the things that we are told to do to make ourselves a better person these days are solitary activities. Right. You know, uh, and the, the things we, we tally take more steps, you know, uh, read more books, um, you know, whatever it may be to sleep longer hours. Yeah. Uh, here you have something that is, that triples [00:38:00] enjoy, the more you can do it with other people.

I was just thinking just this morning, Andrew, my wife, I was coming from PT from physical therapy and she showed up and she had breakfast tacos for me and that was such an act of love. I, I had no, I didn't expect it. I talked about the graces surprise. Yeah. She's just like surprised. Here you go. And, um, that set the tone for the rest of the day and I felt deeply like known and loved.

It's through food, right?

Andrew Camp: No. And like, yeah, there's been moments, and I've shared it on this podcast of like, there's my best friend, Ty and I, we went to the donut man on, in Glendora, California. Um, he's, I think, you know, pretty famous countrywide because he does these peach and strawberry donuts in California during the summer season.

So we took a, we got a peach donut and it's basically a glazed donut cut in half filled with fresh California peaches. Right? Like, and we like. We took a bite and we looked at each other and we laughed and we cried. Like it was a [00:39:00] moment of pure resonance that like, you know, nothing we did could, you know, it was just this moment where you're like, I don't know what I'm experiencing, but it is pure, pure joy.

Dave Zahl: You're killing me. That sounds unbelievable. Yeah. Someone asked me what grace tastes like and I said, I think grace tastes like a South Carolina peach in perfectly in season, because that to. Is so super abundant. Yeah. And, and incongruous to the ground, you know, the, the dirty ground from which it springs and stuff like that.

Yeah. You know, it's like this is what came out of that tree. This is so good.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Dave Zahl: To imagine that with a donut though. Yes, I'm with you, man. That sounds incredible.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. So yeah, it's on Route 66, Glendora, California. Um, you know, just a little walkup shop. Um, but they. They make these donuts that are just other worldly and and they've been back since and it's not the same,

Dave Zahl: huh?[00:40:00]

It was that moment, something about that day where they, he was on that day. Right? Like it's, yeah.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. They're still great, but like, you know, you, you wanna relive that moment and it's, it's not there, but like that memory of, of just laughter and pure joy. I. Um, you know, being like a, you know, a little school girl, like just giddy, you know, like, you know, like, it, it, yeah.

It's just one of those moments of grace that you're just like, what? It surprised us. I can't do anything about it, and yet here I am eating it.

Dave Zahl: I love that. You know, I think one of the things I was asked to write a piece about, like what's, you know, are there any things you're optimistic about in the future?

About the future? And I, I, I was, you know, it's if you see a worn, the worn out, graceless world in which we live, in which everyone's yelling at each other and people seem to be just. Deeply miserable. Um, one of the things that I, that occurred to me, and I don't think it's a small thing, I think I say, I think food has just gotten better.

Like, I think that if you'd [00:41:00] shown, if you're lived in the 1940s, um, and not even wartime, but just like the really good food, and then you compare that to what you get today. And I, I think about myself, like the pizza in our town, what it was 15 years ago versus now, and there's some Italian. Guy who's opened up this amazing shop and a Detroit person who's opened up this incredible shop.

And the, the food, the, the, the food's literally three times better than it used to be. Like categorically. Um, the produce has probably always been pretty great, but, and yet it still feels like there's been food is, is it gives me a reason for hope, huh?

Andrew Camp: No. Yeah. 'cause I think then we, you know, we experience more international cuisine, you know, we have access to.

You know, we, my wife and I, we live in Flagstaff. It's a small, smaller town, but you know, we have Thai restaurants. Korean restaurants, you know, great Mexican food, you know, and that's, that's a grace, right? Like, of [00:42:00] being able to, to get different foods that we, you know, we don't have to travel the world anymore.

Looking for

Dave Zahl: yes. Indian food. Ooh. Um, uh, we, we have great sushi here too, though, but towards Central Virginia, we're landlocked. We shouldn't have good sushi, but we do.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Zahl: No,

Andrew Camp: people always like, are weary of landlocked sushi, and I'm like, with air travel and getting fresh food around the world now, like, you can, the, the fish is, is fresh and good.

Like, don't, don't overthink this. Like, enjoy it. Like, yeah. You know, choose wisely, but don't, yeah, don't overthink it.

Dave Zahl: Yeah, we, you know, we, in our, the So Mockingbird, my organization, one of the things that always stood out is we always, when we do these conferences, and we're, we're not able to do them in the same, quite in the same way, but we always wanted to have food together and we always wanted to have good food together.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Dave Zahl: And when I remember talking to a guy at a, at a church who wasn't a very, you know, well-heeled [00:43:00] church or anything, but he said.

Quote unquote, church coffee with freeze dried, you know, Otis Spunkmeyer muffins or something like that. Like this, this, we can't do much, but we can make sure that, that, that at least you get some fresh donuts or fresh and, and decent coffee and actually put some, putting money towards that is not putting money towards pleasure, it's putting money towards love.

Mm-hmm. And that was a in service and that was a, that, that involved a shift from the older. The older guards mentality. Right. Which is like, this is like something well, we're kind of obliged to. You do it as, but we don't want to get too fancy. We don't want to, we don't wanna be indulgent or sinful. So he was like, we're, we're actually not anywhere in the realm of like sinful indulgence with our coffee hour.

We could, we could make this people feel valued and we could do that by giving them pastries that were, that were not cooked last week.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. [00:44:00] They're, they're not the grocery store. You know, discard. Yes.

Dave Zahl: Yeah. Those was a, those are, those are, those are eye-opening moment for me and I think we, we've taken it to heart at our church.

We just did this vast, you know, we do a lot of, we do a lot of sort of social ministries in our church and we have a lot of outreach stuff, but we've also been like, you know, it's time for us to get better coffee, so let's do what we need to do.

Andrew Camp: Establish that the Eucharist is the model for which Jesus calls us into the Eucharist isn't bland or bad taste, you know, bad tasting. It should be this invitation to more, to a, a life that we, we want to see come, you know? Um, and so yet, like we, we settle for I think second rate. Tables because we don't know what it means to be, I think at times, to be nourished [00:45:00] at Jesus's table.

Um,

Dave Zahl: yeah, and I mean, isn't the vision of heaven we have of a feast? I mean, that's, that's, I don't think that's arbitrary at all. No, I love that. I mean, I'm not just, yes, I love Bette's Feast as much as any, any, anyone. But I, I think that heavenly banquet that I look forward to is, is a, um. I really am excited about the food.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yes. Right. That's not My brother just went on a sabbatical and he's a, he's a sober person, so he, he wasn't going to places to go drink or to indulge. He went, but he went, went to Asia 'cause he wanted to eat. I. Yeah. Uh, that, that was his spiritual sort of thing. So, and you know, I, I wanted to say one other thing about the book because I do try to phrase grace in terms of relief, the experience of pressure being removed.

And, um, I do feel like it's not only a relief to bite into something that's tastier than it has to be, [00:46:00] but it also, um, when you are a person who's been carrying a lot and the weight of the world as it were. Part of coming back to oneself is to, um, does involve the, the grace that I would be looking for does involve some sort of sustenance, some kind of food, some kind of mm-hmm.

That to me. It is, it's part of relief. It's not just sleep. We say, you know, take a, take your weight off, get a shower and, and take a rest. But, you know, we're also like, have a, have a delicious meal. And so I think, um, grace relief food, it's all intertwined in a way that doesn't as even necessarily have to be separated out too much.

But, um, I love that. I think it's such a no-brainer that, that your podcast. That you'd be combining the two in such explicit ways. That's why I was excited to come on.

Andrew Camp: No, I appreciate that. And then you factor in hospitality, and I always come back to Nouwen's definition of like [00:47:00] hospitality from reaching out.

It's a book our small group is reading right now this summer, and I think it's a book all about grace in terms. But, um, you know, he's, he talks about hospitality as, you know, creating a space for another person to flourish, to become the person they were meant to be, you know, and that. No, you know, we're not manipulating them.

We're not here for an agenda, but how do I welcome a person to the table so that they can, you know, to use your words like experience relief, um, and just exhale. Uh, yes.

Dave Zahl: How, I mean, that's what we're, yeah. I think there's so much, uh, when I've, I've heard Grace described as a cosmic cosmic exhale.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Dave Zahl: As a cool drink of water.

I. You know, um, to a parched throat. Uh, and I, that's what I tried to con, that's what I hope when the best reviews I've received of this book so far, that is, that it feels like an exhale. It feels like a being [00:48:00] doused in cold water. It feels like relief. And I think that that's means that a person has, has, has had an a

Andrew Camp: yeah.

Dave Zahl: Experience of as much as a.

Andrew Camp: Or it's a sip of a really great wine. You know, I'm a wine, yes, I sell wine as, as my job. And so I've tasted some really great wines, you know, and, and to share a bottle and to have other, you know, people taste a bottle and be like, I've not tasted a wine like this in, in years. Or, you know, to, to see them get goosebumps, like people who've worked in the wine industry for years, decades, and to have, you know, for try a new wine and to.

A visceral reaction to it. It's like wine is, wine is grace.

Dave Zahl: That's incredible. Yeah. I think of Ratatouille, you know, like the, how it can just Totally. That's what you're chasing after these, these moments of, of resonance where you're confronted with the fact there's goodness and, uh, and, and, and [00:49:00] beauty you're not responsible for.

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: And sometimes in the most simple ways, peasant. You know, and so it's not white truffle risotto, but it was, you know, grace was experienced by the critic in, in peasant food, in a dish that harkened back to his mom in his home. Um,

Dave Zahl: probably the freedom of play in some, in some kind of, you know,

Andrew Camp: in articulate way.

No, for sure. Uh, so, yeah, no, I think food, there's so much as I continue to unpack of like, okay, what is, what can the table be, And what can food be, whether, you know, it's growing, the grace of growing vegetables and tasting, you know, a vine ripened tomato, um, you know, are really good carrots. Um,

Dave Zahl: yeah, one of my theological heroes, and who I quote in here, I'm sure your fan, but is Robert Capon, who is, was a food critic for the Times.

And we, we had to get to [00:50:00] Mockingbird, got to, uh, publish some of his stuff that had gone outta print and oh. He's just so in favor of, you know, lots of butter, extra butter. Yep. You know, lots of the fattiest meat, you know, the, the rich, um, not holding back. Um, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the, the man who I, who in my view understood grace on a kind of a molecular level.

And was as playful a writer as they come.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Dave Zahl: On in any genre was also a food critic. I just think that that's, and critic, I would say critic is what he was criticizing was usually parsimonious and, um, you know, cheap, uh, or uh, uh, by that I mean like, um, faced. Attitudes towards food. He was, he was very much, he was a defender of the, of the good, the rich, the succulent.

Right. And a, a critic of [00:51:00] the, uh, unnecessarily p like paucity. You know, like he, that's what I love about Capin, but it, it was all of a peace with him, and that's very, very, um, telling.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No cape. Yeah. Some of his writings are just so, or all of his writings. But yeah, I've read a couple of his books and they're.

Books I probably need to revisit, but yeah, just such there's joy, there's depth, um, there's the playfulness, like you say. Um, that comes throughout his writings so much. Yeah. Um, so as we begin to wrap up, it's a question I ask all of my guests. What's the story you want the church to tell

Dave Zahl: that God is not mad at you?

I really want people to.

They can bring their cares, actual cares and concerns to God, um, and that you can, there is a destination for your guilt [00:52:00] and sadness and grief and fear. I. And I, I think that today we're constantly scanning around for a destination. Where do we deposit these things? And, uh, the foot of the cross is the best depository I know of.

But what I, I mean, I want, I want people to know that God is not mad at them.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Dave Zahl: But, and that's a kind of, uh, a pithy way to say that God is gracious that, that the, the voice of God's grace echoes much louder than the voice of God's law and. Um, yeah, and, and not only that, I also want people to know that God is real.

Yeah, exactly right. Andy's very good at saying that, God, you know, there is a living God who has power. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and we are not responsible for, uh, transforming ourselves or other people. Um, but we do know someone who can, and.[00:53:00]

There's nothing good available outside of the things that I can engineer myself. So all of those things. Yeah. But

Andrew Camp: yeah, no, I appreciate it. Um, and then some fun questions as we, as we close up. What's one food you refuse to eat?

Dave Zahl: I really don't like, uh, like portini mushrooms. Okay. I don't like the, the texture.

It's not, it's not a. Don't, can't do it. Blue cheese. I feel the same kind of way about those drives my wife crazy. But those are the two things that I really shy away from. If I find out they're in the dish, I just sort of.

Andrew Camp: Don't eat it. That's fair. Okay. But yeah, blue cheese and mushrooms on steak. It's like there's something UNC anxious and, and delicious about it.

I know

Dave Zahl: I'm missing out. I'm clearly missing out. The lord's gonna have to change my taste buds on those ones.

Andrew Camp: Do you do other mushrooms? Like, you know, if it's like a wild mushroom, you know, like the [00:54:00] wild mushrooms, like morales, chs? Um,

Dave Zahl: I think if I had a good, a real, a guide. You know, someone I watched that Nicola Nicholas Cage movie called Pig about his, his trouble sniffing pig.

Yeah. And um, it got me very interested in the whole world of these troubles that people pay thousands of dollars for. Yeah. So, um, if I had a guy, it's, it's like reading Dust iki or something, you know, or reading, reading Hartman Rosa. If I had the right guide, I would raise my hand. Okay. Cheap mushrooms. I think that I, I'm not that interested.

It's, it's more the, the, the texture. But I hear you. I'm absolutely up to try the good stuff.

Andrew Camp: Okay. That's fair. And then finally are on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Dave Zahl: Oh my goodness. Well, I'm gonna betray my, um. There's a restaurant in, [00:55:00] uh, I've, I've always been a huge food of a fan of Indian food. Mm-hmm. And, um, there's a restaurant in, um, Washington DC called the Bombay Club, which I'm sure is slightly Americanized Indian food, but it's also high, high, high end stuff.

And, um, they have a, uh, Dan Kale. I, I didn't, you know, kale is not the sort of thing I look for on a menu, but they have a territory, kale that they drizzle this sort of yogurt thing and these spices that you know, you've never tasted before. And it was a revelation that I still think about. Um, if you want to get closer to where, you know, what's actually attainable.

'cause I get to go there occasionally on like an anniversary dinner.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Dave Zahl: There's a, I lived in New Haven, Connecticut for a long time, and there's a pizza place there called Modern Pizza. Okay. And there is a sausage and cherry pepper pizza that you can get that is in my mind, the, um, platonic ideal of [00:56:00] what a pizza should be.

And, um, it has, I usually, when I go back, uh, it doesn't let me down.

Andrew Camp: I. Awesome. And then finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in, if you knew you had one last meal to enjoy, what would be on your table? And so if Dave had one last meal, what might be on his table?

Dave Zahl: You know, I watched someone do this recently and they basically had like an eight course meal, so I'm not gonna, I think that was cheating.

Like you can't have absolutely everything. Um, I would have a, uh. A, I would have probably a pepperoni pizza from modern A pizza? Yeah. With a side of the most soup dumplings from New York City, like pork soup, dumplings. Like really the good, the swan stuff, uh, to drink. I'm not really a drinker, so I would, I would this lame as it sounds.

It would probably be some form of iced tea or like the extremely good lemonade I've had every once in a while in. And for [00:57:00] dessert, uh, one of those like bread puddings that almost, um. They, they're almost so, it's almost so rich that it puts you to sleep because I'd want to be in a, in a deep food coma when I, when I got the lethal injection.

Andrew Camp: No, for sure. We didn't say you were, you know, there was gonna be lethal injection afterwards. You took that to a dark I think that I Sorry.

Dave Zahl: You're

Andrew Camp: the first moment, you know, went, went that, that dark real quick.

Dave Zahl: Oh yeah. Well, I, I think the last meal is like, you know, you get one last meal in jail.

Andrew Camp: No, I understand.

No, it is, it, yeah. That's. Generally. Well, Dave, I appreciate this conversation. I appreciate your work. Um, if people wanna learn more about your work, follow you, where, where do they find you?

Dave Zahl: Sure. Well, thank you, Andrew. It's been a, it's been a joy. Um, Mockingbird is where I'm at most of the time where I can be found.

M bird.com, MBIR d.com. The mocking Cast is my principal podcast. There's also [00:58:00] once my brother, um. And my book, uh, the Big Relief is available wherever books are sold. Just ask if people do like it, you know, contemporary authors. Um, we need Amazon ratings and Good reads, reviews, and all those things if you felt so led.

Andrew Camp: Yep. Uh,

Dave Zahl: that'd be awesome.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. Well, thank you. Um, and if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing it with others. Thanks for joining us on this episode of the Biggest Table where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food.

Until next time. Bye.