The Biggest Table

The Biggest Table--Episode 06 (Jen Manglos)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] This episode of the biggest table is brought to you in part by Wild Goose coffee. Since 2008, Wild Goose has sought to build better communities through coffee. To learn more and to order coffee, please visit wild goose coffee.com.

In this episode, I talk with my former grad school classmate, Jen Manglos about her experience and walking the Camino de Santiago. Jen shares how being a Pilgrim has shaped her view of food and hospitality. While also sharing ways in which she has grown and embracing her own and body ness and limitations. Through walking as a Pilgrim, she reveals to us that the way of the Pilgrim is lived through a posture of receptivity and not taking enjoy the episode.

Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love for us and our love for one another.

And today I'm joined by my friend Jen Manglos, whom I knew from my days at Talbot and [00:01:00] in the Institute for Spiritual Formation.

A little bit about Jen. As a spiritual director, pastor, and pilgrimage guide, Jen Manglos delights in helping others discover their own belovedness in God through an embodied, creative approach to spirituality. Since receiving her M. A. in Spiritual Formation and Soul Care from the Institute for Spiritual Formation at Talbot School of Theology, she has moved into providing care and support for wanderers, women, and leaders in the ministry and non profit worlds.

She currently resides in Seattle where she is enjoying that Pacific Northwest life. So welcome Jen. It's great to have you here.

Jen Manglos: Thanks Andrew. It's really good to be here with you. I've loved listening to your podcast and I'm honored to be a guest.

Andrew Camp: No, it's fun. And we have an interesting topic that I didn't think I'd be exploring on this podcast, but I'm really thrilled you reached out and we've been able to reconnect.

Um, so you've been on your own journey recently in the past couple of years. Can you just share with our readers where you're at and what you're sort of doing as it [00:02:00] relates to the spiritual life?

Jen Manglos: Yeah. I, I laugh because So much of the things I do in my life that I really delight in and enjoy were never part of the plan.

And that is very true for my work as a spiritual director and as a pilgrimage guide. And even a pastor. But, uh, you know, about five years, well, more than five years ago, I used to work for Saddleback Church. And one day, on staff, talking with a friend, someone mentions this movie called The Way with Martin Sheen.

I watch it and it's about this mystical pilgrimage called the Camino de Santiago, which is a trek that takes you from, um, France all the way across Spain to see the remains of Saint James the Apostle. And this film tells this beautiful little story about a man who doesn't expect to walk this pilgrimage, but walks it in place of the sun.

And I watched the film, it finishes, and I get this sense, you're going to walk this. And [00:03:00] I thought, oh, okay, well, that's nice, but I kind of have a job right now and I can't really leave for six weeks to go walk across Spain. But, you know, I'll figure when the time's right, I'll know. And so years passed, probably good five, six years.

And at that point I was living in Pasadena, California, working for a university. And was ready for a change and was kicking off the new year. It was January 2018 and I started praying, God, what do you have for me this year? And pilgrimage came up. And I, in my mind, within a few minutes, planned a plan.

Created a plan to walk this pilgrimage. And then went, this is crazy. Maybe I should talk to some people. So, kind of, what do the people I go to when I'm discerning big, big life changes. And Between that and my own time of prayer, I felt this invitation to go. And so I ended up leaving my [00:04:00] job in, at the end of August 2018.

I wanted to walk the entire route, which is about 500 miles. And it was, sometimes it goes cliche to say this, but it really was transformative. It changed my life in really significant ways and in small, subtle ways. And so that I finished the pilgrimage and that was the road that took me to a pastoral role up in Seattle, Washington.

So about a little over half a year after finishing my pilgrimage, I moved to Seattle, started as a, an associate pastor for a church up here, a multi site church, and got to do normal , associate pastoral role things, and also got to, got to do spiritual formation across all of our locations. And ended up having an unexpected ending to that role back in the end of 2021.

And there's something about when your life takes an unexpected turn that you kind of feel this freedom to, well, [00:05:00] what else is possible? Um, you know, I've gone through something that I never expected to happen and I'm still here, so maybe I can try something else. And one of the ideas that was coming to mind for me was pilgrimage.

I would always talk about my experience on the Camino, it was a really good topic when you're preaching, you know, when you need these good illustrations, I think I had the lifetime of sermon illustrations for my walk, and I would just get people interested, so people would start reaching out to me, wanting to find out more about pilgrimage, about walking it, about how to prepare, and so unofficially, I was starting to do this work as a pilgrimage guide and decided, let me see if people would go with me if I led an experience.

And so last August 20, 2023, I took a group of eight on the last hundred kilometers of the Camino Santiago, which is about 62 miles. And it was wonderful. I mean, it was challenging. Uh, it definitely [00:06:00] stretched me in ways I never anticipated. And yet such beautiful things happened and really unique things in each of the lives of the people I walked with.

And I've continued on down that path and I'm seeing where it develops. So I'm taking, uh, two groups this upcoming year. Um, one of them, there's, uh, the Camino has a bunch of different routes. So I'm taking this route through Portugal. And then I'm also taking a group on St. Cuthbert's Way in the United Kingdom to Lindisfarne Island.

So it is kind of wild to me that I'm doing this. I, I still kind of go, wait, what just happened? Um, it's been about two years and it's fun. It's hard. It requires a lot of trust on my part. It's like, it's his own pilgrimage for me stepping into this work. But yeah, here I am.

Andrew Camp: Here you are. Yeah. So you're leading others.

You've experienced the Camino. Um, and so I don't think people would associate the life of a pilgrimage and food, but how does food [00:07:00] fit into the life of a pilgrim as you're walking?

Jen Manglos: It's in a couple of ways. I think first food is this place of dependence. You know, when you're walking a pilgrimage.

You simplify your life quite a bit. You know, you're living out of what you have in your backpack and you know, you don't know where you're going to sleep every night. You're not sure what food will be available. And there's these temptations early on to try to prepare for everything, plan for everything.

Well, at least there was for me. Um, so it was learning to trust that I would have what I need for those basics. You know, what is it? The hierarchy of needs, you know, it's like you want food shelter, right? Um, and those are the things that are very up in the air as you walk every day And so I was noticing food became this real significant place of trust for me Would it be enough?

Will I do I need to carry all this extra food or you know, will there be places [00:08:00] to stop? One day I was walking and this was probably halfway through my pilgrimage in 2018 And stopped in this town, got a, you, you eat this, um, dish often as you walk called the tortilla española, which is basically a crust with quiche.

It's kind of wonderful. Yeah. It's Trader Joe's sells them now. If you get a chance, they're, they're fun, but you can make them yourself. They're, they're easy enough. As long as you have enough olive oil. And, uh, so I had my tortilla and my coffee and my orange juice, which is kind of my meal every morning, and it really would help power me.

And I go to sit down, and there's worms crawling on the plate. It was awful. I mean, it was just, I just, it was really funny. I just stood up, went, nope, and just backed away and walked. And I paid for it, and I probably could have gotten a refund, but I just I didn't want to be in that establishment. I just wanted to go.

And so, and I, I [00:09:00] had some snacks in my bag and figured I would hit some towns as I left. I leave an hour or two in and I realized, Oh no, I don't have any snacks. And Oh no, it's going to be, I'm not going to hit another town until I'm done walking. And it's, I've got another three hours to go. And so I'm facing this fear of, Oh no, I'm not going to have food to eat.

And am I going to be okay? And I bump into a pilgrim and have to just go, Hey, here's my sob story. Can you help me out? And the person just was like, absolutely pulled out a granola bar. Do you need anything else? And it was this interesting moment where I went, Oh, I'm okay.

And you know, I'd like to say that when I walked again this last summer. That all of that was gone, settled. I had perfect trust, but I had a similar moment early on where I was afraid I wouldn't have food and [00:10:00] God showed up, you know, in ways that I couldn't have orchestrated. And so. For me, food became this place of dependence and trust, like, like a lot of things, like where I'll sleep the next day,

But I also see that food also was this place of connection, right? So, at the end of your day walking, depending on where you stay, if you stay in the hostels along the way, which are called albergues, um, sometimes people will cook some of the, uh, establishments have kitchens you can cook in. I was usually too tired for that, but. A lot of the places would offer a pilgrim meal, and it's this classic three course meal with wine, bread, a first course, a second course, and a postre, a dessert.

And you often would eat the same kind of, everyone had a version of the same, you know, three course meal. It was usually pasta or salad as a starter and some sort of meat and french fries and then ice cream or cake at the end. Right. Um, but you'd sit at this big table with all of [00:11:00] these pilgrims from all over the world.

And you just break bread together and talk about your days, talk about your lives. And they were some of those beautiful moments. You never knew who you were going to encounter as you sat and shared a meal. And, and then what was fun is after a few days, you'd start seeing those people again and again, everyone kind of, you kind of found that.

You weren't trying to keep up with the same people, but for some reason you had the same pace and so then you'd see him again the next night or, or when you'd make your stop for your tortilla. Um, Oh, Hey, I saw you yesterday. And so the table was such a place of connection for pilgrims. And then those connections you might not ever see, you might have one good conversation with a person and never see them again.

And yet what could happen in those conversations over a coffee, over a beer? Was sometimes it was the, the word you needed to hear that day or the challenge to your assumptions. I, you know, [00:12:00] as a pastor, so often I'm have this idea of like the long journey with people and it's sad to see people go, but pilgrimage has really shifted that for me of, can I just value what's happening in this present moment and let that be enough and just be able to like release that.

And if I see you again, great, if not, this was worth it. This was enough.

Andrew Camp: Hmm. Wow, you touched on a few things that I want to come back to. Um, there was so much there you just said in both of those stories. One, like, as you're talking about making, you know, will I have enough, like, I'm reminded of the Lord's Prayer, , give us this bread, our daily bread. And as Americans, you know, middle class Americans, that prayer often doesn't resonate, because, I don't know about you, I've never had to worry about my daily bread.

And then you've also touched in on the abundance of hospitality. Are the beauty that, you know, they're the scarcity and abundance. Like you hit on both themes a lot in those, that story, those stories, which was [00:13:00] great. How has then that journey first of, will I have enough? Will my needs be met helped you to see God in a different way?

Jen Manglos: Yeah, it's been pretty significant. When I moved to Seattle, I had about seven months here before the pandemic began. And. Even though right now we can look back and go, it was probably all over the place before we knew it, but Seattle had the first death of the first March death and so we had that experience show up pretty early.

And I remember this moment as things were shutting down and I'm, I'm in this brand new city. I don't know anyone. Um, this is kind of terrifying to me. I don't know what to expect and. It was like, how do I get through this God? And I felt this nudge to go back to that pilgrimage posture of, [00:14:00] okay, can I trust that you will give me what I need today?

And what are the things that will help me to continue to look for you and to grab on for you God? What are the things that you are inviting me into? Um, and then when I had my unexpected leaving my job, that was another place of dependence. And, and so I, um, This work I'm doing now, I've been moving into it slowly over the last two years, I was getting the bulk of my income from a non profit job and last May I left that to do this work full time as a spiritual director, as a pilgrimage guide.

And it was, it still is terrifying. Yeah. I, I, I, I think what's been kind of comforting to me, I think when I was younger, my view of the spiritual life was, Oh, you arrive at a place and then it's just this upward ascent. And. What I've seen in my own life and through my experience on pilgrimage is this more of this circular [00:15:00] movement where I hit these familiar places again and again.

So those things that were coming up for me on pilgrimage of trusting that God would provide my needs. Um, I still encounter that day to day in my life now, you know, as I'm on this different kind of pilgrimage of working as a guide as not knowing, you know, I don't work a nine to five kind of job anymore.

There's not. Automatic benefits, sick time, it's, it's this kind of wild off roading experience. And there's days when it's wonderful and there's days where I'm literally in terror going, is there going to be enough? And then I have to center again and go, all right, God, what's happening in me? How are you showing up?

And, and so I would just say for me, it's been this continual like journey onward into these uncomfortable places with God and learning to trust. Just like a minuscule amount more day by day. Yeah. No, [00:16:00]

Andrew Camp: I, I can relate to a lot of that of thinking the spiritual life is just this linear path of like, if I do X, then Y shows up.

And not just for the spiritual life, but for all of life, right? Like I went to grad school, you know, I did all the right things and life should turn out a certain way. And both you and I have learned the hard way through the loss of jobs that that's not, that's not how God operates. That's not the economy of God.

And so Yeah, no, it's a hard lesson and never it's a lesson that Claire and I have had to return to time and time again in this own season, um, but yeah, did you have to say?

Jen Manglos: Yeah, I was going to add just even more than what you just said. I always sit with this tension of, you know, Christ calls us to pick up our crosses and follow him.

And yet at the same time, too, he invites us into this abundant life. And I can read those as separate things. Conflict with each other, [00:17:00] or I can read those like actually like supporting each other. Like maybe this way of abundant life Involves picking up my cross. Maybe there's something there and even as I walked last summer, I was sitting with this question How do I reconcile that the pain of my unexpected leaving my job and it was deeply painful Mm hmm, and it also I could see God moving me out of there.

I could see God's rescue in that And it was what allowed me to start doing this pilgrimage work. So I felt both this deep gratitude for, for that, but it didn't get rid of it. Oh, this is actually still deeply painful. I still feel the sting of that, um, to this day. And I probably will for most of my life, maybe lessening to a lessening degree, but that grief, I will still hold that still is in my body.

And so I just sit, you know, it's like that interesting tension. I think life with God invites us into, it's not just. All doom and gloom like there is this hope [00:18:00] there is this like resurrection happening in our bodies and in the people around us and It asks us to be willing to like open up all every part of our life.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yeah Yeah, no, there are there is goodness that comes from the pain, but that doesn't take away the scars that the hurt the grief Yeah, no, I, I feel similar, I've resonated with what you have just shared of, yeah, the correlation between picking up our cross and this abundant life that somehow they have to go hand in hand.

And too often we want, we think it's one or the other, and we miss the, the complexity or the tension that life actually is just fraught with.

Jen Manglos: I wonder how many church movements are built on kind of landing on one of those rather than intention

Andrew Camp: both. Yeah, no, for sure. But then to return to you mentioned at the end of your day, there's this [00:19:00] hospitality and when we were talking on the phone before recording, you had this phrase that you began to see hospitality is everywhere, which I love that phrase.

And so what, what does hospitality then look like for you post Camino?

Jen Manglos: Yeah, you know, what's interesting is. I was talking to someone earlier this week who had walked a pilgrimage and was looking at spiritual direction training and I said, Oh, it's interesting that you're drawn to both because they're both about hospitality.

Like, as spiritual directors, we're welcoming people into a space, whether that's online or in a meeting room, but we're welcoming them fullness itself. And I think pilgrimage is doing that. And then you get to experience the hospitality of being in the stranger's house. Um, you know, some of these places are a little more, um, you know, it's more of like professional business, but sometimes it's literally someone's house they've opened up and put some bunk beds in.

And so you get to [00:20:00] experience like that kind of hospitality and the unique ways someone might want to care for pilgrims. Um, but along the main route on the Camino, um, there's so many people who are, you know, you're walking the wrong way and someone just kind of goes points, goes that way, that way. Um, you know, one of the.

Most beautiful moments of hospitality for me when I walked was this one day I woke up with an ear infection. Randomly, I wasn't prone to them, and I needed help, and I was in this small town, and no one was showing up at the place I was staying. There was no staff there, um, and I was realizing I, I need to start poking around this town and find help, and I, someone had recommended I go to this, um, bed and breakfast nearby, which was like, The bed and breakfast is a step up from the albergue as you stay in it, you might get your own room.

And, um, so I came in and shared my sad story of I have an ear infection and I [00:21:00] need help. And I just started to cry because I hadn't slept well and the man was so kind and goes sit down. I'm serving guests to my, uh, breakfast to my guests, so I'll need you to wait. Um, he goes, but if you want to sit on the couch, I'll help you as soon as I'm, I'm able to.

And I ended up falling asleep and I woke up maybe an hour later. And he, I wake up and he's smiling and he goes, do you feel a little better? And I said, yes. And he goes, well, I've arranged for this, um, the van that transports bags. Sometimes people send their bags ahead to the next town. He goes, they're going to pick you up and they're going to take you to the next town.

And there's a doctor there and he'll take you right to the doctor. And you know, that, those kinds of beautiful moments really sit with you. Like they stay in your body. I mean, like our painful moments stay in your body, but these moments of like deep care and hospitality stay with us too. And so. You know, as I've moved to this big city, Seattle, it's this interesting moment of, can I be aware of what the needs are around me, [00:22:00] um, whether that's paying attention to the person on the street, who's doesn't have a housing situation.

Can I, you know, am I willing to offer dignity to them, even just by being present with them? Um, you know, Seattle is this interesting thing. We talk about the Seattle freeze often here. People are actually not. They're not unkind. I came from L. A. People could be pretty unkind. Sometimes there people aren't unkind here, but it's just there's this wall that's hard to get past with people.

And so to actually get to the point where you go into their house where they invite you over the classic Seattle move is you exchange contact info and say, let's get together and you never talk again. And so it's interesting. Like, what does it look like to get past that? And for me, it's been as things have opened up post covid is Um, inviting people into my house and just being like, Hey, come here.

I don't have anything fancy, but can I open my door and my table to you? Um, and I, I just had a [00:23:00] group over last night and I've just enjoyed getting to do that kind of hospitality or we're starting to like invite people who are pastoring and being like, Hey, just come here, have a meal. Um, knowing that I don't need to offer anything fancy, but there's just something so beautiful when someone's like, let me put on the kettle for you.

Let me, you know, even if it's like. Packaged food, but just there's something about like that warmth and welcome that lets people just let down. And so I think that's really been transformative for me. And I also go to a house church now where, you know, our first 15 minutes are spent loading up our plates with really good breakfast food.

I'll always, we have a bunch of places we could sit, but we have this big long table. I always sit at the table because I love that hospitality sense of like sitting across the table and worshiping with someone. And so, you know, it's interesting to me that those are the places I've been drawn to post pilgrimage.[00:24:00]

Like, oh yeah, I've been drawn to these places that allow me to be across the table for people and that continues to like, just filter through my life and you know, again. Some days. I don't want someone in my house. I don't have to clean my bathroom. Um, but, but how beautiful, like to let someone into your life in that way.

Andrew Camp: No. And I love how you're sharing that. Like, hospitality has changed from maybe performative to maybe more spontaneous and just present. Um, where too often we think of hospitality as the food network table that is perfectly set, perfectly orchestrated, you know, everything matches and coordinates. Whereas that's not, there's a place for that, right?

But maybe the Camino has taught you that hospitality is whatever's there, whatever's, whoever's there. There is still Jesus present.

Jen Manglos: I will say one of the [00:25:00] most beautiful, best meals I had, and it wasn't a fancy meal, was I'd gotten lost one day while I was walking in the pilgrimage, and I was, I was just like in a really bad mood.

Um, and I was very reactive. Like, I I, yeah, I won't get into it, but I, I was very reactive to people around me and felt very ashamed about it after that. And I arrived to town and one of my friends had been waiting for me and I'd left before her so she was very confused as to why I hadn't arrived yet.

And she, her face lit up when she saw me and she goes, Oh my gosh, I've been wondering where you were. And I tell her I've had such a hard day and I hadn't had much food. And um, she goes, I just went to this bakery and bakeries in Spain are, you can find them, but. Spanish bakeries aren't the best, but this actually was a legit, really good bakery in this tiny town.

You'd never anticipate it. And she goes, our fresh bread and herb cream cheese, share what, [00:26:00] share what I, you know, shared this with me and it was nothing fancy, but it, it's one of those meals. Five years later, I still come back to have, Oh, that meal nourished me in such profound ways. And it wasn't, I mean, it helped that it was actually good bread, but it wasn't, you know.

No one from the Food Network or Bon Appetit is going to show up at this bakery.

Andrew Camp: Right. Yeah. Oh, go ahead. No, I think of your friend's face lighting up and that just creating the space where you could then receive, after a hard day, the beauty of a simple meal. Yeah.

Jen Manglos: I mean, that changes people. I, I love being at a church right now that we take communion every week because there's this idea of like, we're coming to the table every week.

And I would dare to say there are times when. Sitting across the table from someone can be more transformative than a good sermon. I love a good sermon [00:27:00] Not knocking in sermons, but I actually think there's something so transformative that can happen when we break bread with someone

Andrew Camp: else. Mm hmm No, yeah, and it's not just us being Jesus.

It's us seeing Jesus in that other person and receiving Jesus through that person Yeah No, those are beautiful Um, to transition a little, you've talked, you know, about just being aware, you know, and you've I think part of your pilgrimage journey is becoming more aware of your own body. How? What does that look like?

How has that transformed then your spiritual life? Because I think we may think of these pilgrimages as just this spiritual devoid of body experience. Maybe, you know, that's our tendency in the evangelical world, maybe. But how has The Pilgrim life bring together your body and your spiritual life into [00:28:00] a more holistic approach.

Jen Manglos: That's such a good question. Um, when I first started preparing for the Pilgrimage, the big question for me was, can my body do this? And not because of my age, per se, at the time, I was in my mid thirties, people of all ages do this walk. But, um, I came with some extra baggage. I, I have, uh, I had, was diagnosed with scoliosis as a child, and ended up having surgery when I was 14, and so I have metal rods attached to the length of my spine, basically.

Um, so there's things I've, that are just, you know, snowboarding was off the table. Um, there's a lot physically I couldn't do. There's still things I can do, but I think for so long between that reality and Growing up in an evangelical context that didn't often give a lot of context for the body. It was a very big disconnect I I was comfortably living disconnected to my body But [00:29:00] I think I've been through my time at the Institute for Spiritual Formation There was this growing kind of start awareness of even how my body was letting me know when I was anxious Even if I wasn't consciously aware, there was this kind of growing awareness in me but when I was realizing I was walking this pilgrimage And sitting with this very real, like, how do I do this with my back, um, and realizing pretty early on when I was starting to train is my training is actually going to be me learning to listen to my body because I could actually do significant harm to myself if I don't, um, so it actually kind of strangely was born out of this practicality, um, of, you know, this is the reality of my situation.

And so a lot of my, when I started doing these training walks and hikes, It was trying to find that edge of what is effort versus what is harm and becoming aware of that moment to moment, [00:30:00] because sometimes the thing I couldn't do yesterday, I could the next day or the thing I could do the day before I couldn't.

And so I was needing to learn to listen of, okay, do I need to pause? Do I need to retie my shoe? You know? And so I was learning to do that as I just took these walks and hikes. And then when I was on the Camino, pretty early on, I started having this significant back pain. I was trying to carry my backpack.

And about four days in, five days in, I was realizing I'm waking up with pain in the middle of the night. And so it was the question, do I want to look like a hero? Do I want to, you know, look like a legit pilgrimage with my big backpack? Or do I want to make it to the end? I want to make it to the end. And so that it's, it was those kind of questions that I would encounter as I walked.

Um, but then there were some days where I feel good to carry my bag or I feel good to walk longer. Or. [00:31:00] Now I need to stop here. I, I'm done. Um, towards the end of my walk, I hit a second wall, um, where I just was one day I was able to walk these big distances and then I just hit this exhaustion. And so then it was just checking in.

Okay, I'm really close to the end. Do I take a day off or is there a way I can continue on, but just be really kind and caring with my body of okay, don't do extra miles rest really well when you're done. And so. Um, there was this way of like learning to listen to my body that really kicked into full gear when I walked and that's continued since then, you know, where I see that now is even as I'm working, you know, different, you know, again, not a nine to five job, but the thing I'm wrestling with right now is what are normal rhythms of work because I'm, I got really sick in December and I'd been sick a few times [00:32:00] throughout the year.

Um, Granted, there's a lot going on, uh, going, you know, passing through with colds, RSV, COVID, but I was realizing, Oh, this is, I think this is my body telling me the pace you're doing isn't doable. And so I've been taking that seriously of, okay, how do I like, this isn't the way I want to live. This isn't what I want to invite people into.

So what needs to shift? And so I'm asking those questions. I mean, literally real time right now. Okay, how do I break and what is actually restful for me and learning? Yeah, I tend to rest by just getting on my phone and, you know, zoning out on Instagram and Facebook. And that is not restful for me at all.

And it's very disconnecting. And I know this mentally, but I'm having to actually go, all right, what is that about? What am I avoiding? What actually would be restful? And I'm finding [00:33:00] it's silence. That's the thing that my. I'm craving. And so trying to just build that in, in slow ways. So that awareness of body again, it's that cyclical movement again, where it's, you know, I kind of have this moment where I'm like, Oh, I, somebody gets disrupted and there's this revelation of, Oh yeah, there's a different way or I'm being invited differently and living into that.

And then hitting that groove in my soul again, where it's like, Oh, I grew up in a household where we just kind of kept pushing ourselves. And so I'm learning a different way of being, but it's, it's slow hard work. So I'm learning that different way of being in my body. Um, but it's been so helpful and valuable for me.

Um, as I'm continuing to lead these groups, you know, I'm thinking, okay, what does it look like this year to prepare physically for this trip? I've obviously there's these training walks, but I'm realizing endurance is hard for me, [00:34:00] or I'll come finish these trips and just crash. And so how can I care for myself in those moments and learning?

Don't leave a lot of extra time at the end of your trip to sightsee. You're too tired, you're not gonna want to. Um, build that at the beginning. So I'm just learning these, it's like these little subtle things and being okay to say, Yeah, I can do that or I can't do that or that's not kind to my body. So it's It's this continual journey, but it is one that really got kicked off in my first pilgrimage.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. So that embracing of our own limitations, which we don't often want to do, you know, and I don't know if you experienced this as a pastor. I'm sure you did of just, there's always the push for more, you know, you got to do more or that was great this year. How are you going to duplicate or increase, you know, like, you know, versus the pilgrim life is what am I capable of today and being okay with that capacity?

Jen Manglos: Yeah. [00:35:00] Yeah. It's such a different way of being and I, it is some of the gift of being my own boss right now is, I mean, gift and curse, cause I can be a pretty hard task master. I'm learning, but it's like, Oh, this is what I want to lead people into.

And this is, this is what I'm being invited into. And, um, but even beyond that being like, Oh. Do I, God, help me to love your creation. You know, I'm messy, I'm broken. And yet God, you created me with loving care, just as you created with loving care, nature around me, the other people who pass by me on the street and can actually love and care for that.

You know, it's the idea of like, love your neighbor as yourself. For some of us, like, we don't know how to love ourselves. I don't know how to love myself that well. I'm learning, it's a journey. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: But it sounds like the walking these paths [00:36:00] have helped maybe fast or speed up, you know, in the midst of slowing down, you know, this learning of embracing the body and the limitations.

Jen Manglos: Yeah,

definitely creates an awareness. And you also see the people who aren't listening, who are the people who are rushing through and end up injured by week one or two, right? And you can get injured at any point. Like that's kind of, you know, that things happen, but I would often see these people who are like, I'm doing 20, 30 miles a day and you know, they've got a stress injury by week one.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, you can do 20 or 30 miles in one day if that's just a day hike. But to try to spread that over weeks is our days is not sustainable.

Jen Manglos: No, tendonitis injuries. Wow. Things like that. So

Andrew Camp: yeah. Yeah. Um, and you've, you've touched on this, but I would love to come back to this because chances are people listening to this may never get to experience the Camino [00:37:00] or experience a week long pilgrimage journey as you continually reflect on this and you're leading people into it, are there ways we can adopt a pilgrimage mindset, um, and spiritual life without doing a pilgrimage?

Jen Manglos: I, I think so, because there is this, I don't like. Spirituality that's exclusive in the sense of only the people with the most mental capacities or physical capacities can do this thing. Um, that's been actually a big challenge for me, even if that does your spirituality allow for someone who might have neurological differences.

Um, and so I do think pilgrimage this way of being. So the question I started asking about two weeks into my first pilgrimage was what is happening here? Cause I'm noticing this transformation happening in me and. Like what are the [00:38:00] spiritual practices here that are undergirding pilgrimage and what does that look like in daily life because I again I don't think that it's just supposed to be for the people who can afford to fly to Spain Or can afford to take two weeks off or more, you know that there is a privilege there.

Absolutely You know the history of pilgrimages within the Christian traditions was you'd go to these holy places and You'd have people in the early church who would go to Jerusalem, you know We would go to where Jesus, where the cross was or where Jesus was born. Like these were common pilgrimage routes.

Um, Rome eventually became another big one. And you know, only the very extremely wealthy could do that. Then. Well, what started to happen was, you know, people in the church realizing, oh, there's something of value here. How do we bring this back to people? So that's actually the birthplace of the stations of the cross.

Okay. You know, is these like, kind of like walks that represent these, um. Journeys to [00:39:00] these pilgrimage sites, um, you know, this idea of like walking the stations, you know, walking what Jesus walked through, you know, if you've ever been to a stations of the cross, you'll see that it kind of depicts certain moments of his journey to the cross and and some will stop at his death.

Some will include his resurrection. Um, but that is a way of like, bringing pilgrimage to the middle of your life. Um, which and so I always appreciate that. But I think today, some of those practices that I think we can live into. Wherever we are, the places of simplicity, you know, it's the pilgrimage invites you to simplify your life and, you know, you're living out of a backpack.

So that doesn't mean you have to live out of a backpack, but so much of what we hold on to is out of fear rather than trust. And so it's maybe looking at what are the things in my life that I'm holding on to that are me trying to hold control. And that can take so many different shapes and forms. Um, sometimes it can be literally like I, I lived with someone once who had [00:40:00] grown up on the mission field and I, it was scarce.

And so what I noticed when I moved in, their cupboards, their fridge were packed with food that they barely touched. And I was like, Oh, that's interesting there. And, and not from a place of shame, like get rid of all that food, but it just was such an indication of a lot of fear that was still like present for them.

So simplicity invites us to just kind of start to have that conversation. Why do I have the things I have and, you know, or we have these storage units full of things that we don't touch. And, um, I mean, I still have a storage unit, so I, I am part of this experience. Yes. But, uh, you know, it's, there's a lot of things that, you know, when I walked, I realized I didn't miss any of my belonging belongings, except maybe for some of my books, but kind of fine with what's in my backpack.

Um, so can we take some of that posture of like. Simplifying our lives. Um, I would [00:41:00] say probably the other practice that is really helpful to kind of embrace that pilgrimage in the midst of where you are is kind of tending to this ability to become aware of where God is in the midst of things. So maybe a nod to Ignatian spirituality, um, you know, not that like God is the rock, but like, how do I see evidence and reminder of God and God's character through the things around me, through the moments and experiences I have through people.

Yeah. How do I live in a way in which my eyes are open both literally and in the spiritual sense? And then I'd say that place of and this ties into simplicity as well, but that place of dependency, right? I'd like what does it look like for me to depend on you today? some of the I think the shadow side of I'll say this for Americans, you know that Um, and so I think that's a really interesting idea of like these myths that kind of, you know, Hey, pull your bootstraps up and create and innovate.

Like, there's a beautiful side to that, but the shadow side is, is, you know, [00:42:00] I'm in charge of my future. And, and I think that can create in us living in ways in which it's all on us. And you don't have to depend on anyone else and, oh, or God. Um, so what is it like to like live in these ways where we maybe risk?

Um, And again, it's, it's such these tension points because it's not like, don't go, you know, it doesn't mean you need to live unwisely. Wisdom is a gift. Right. But sometimes I, I notice that wisdom is something like actually wisdom can actually, what I call wisdom is actually just my fear dressed up. Hmm. Oh, I'm actually just terrified and I'm using some wisdom language to make it seem as though I'm being very mature and responsible.

And actually I'm just a terrified little kid going, ah, I don't want to experience this discomfort. Right. So, you know, again, it's like that getting curious about like what's going on under the surface for me. So, I, I think these places are important. And then finally the body, you know, learning to [00:43:00] listen to our body, um, and moving in the ways that we can.

Again, not everyone can walk 12 plus miles a day. That's okay. But like, what is it to like be in your body and to acknowledge that, you know, God created us some bodies. And I'm going to say that's not an accident that there was intentionality about that. Um, bodies that, Sometimes do, can do a lot and sometimes, you know, kind of poop out at the end of the day or get injuries and do these things that we're uncomfortable with.

And yet this is where we find ourselves and how do we learn to listen and tend well to the bodies we've been given and to like navigate those places, you know, for me, having the back issues has been always the challenge. Like I've always felt a little defective because of my, my injuries and my, my scoliosis.

Um, And so starting that conversation with God, it's really hard that I can't do these things. Um, and yet it makes me really grateful for the things I can do. So [00:44:00] I just think the more we can become aware of our bodies and how they're functioning and how we're treating them and how we, you know, I work, do some work with fuller.

We use this book in our classes, um, the wisdom of the body by Hillary McBride. It's such a beautiful invitation just to start noticing how we treat our bodies. Um, there's so much that's just ingrained in our, I'm not even just going to say church culture, I'm going to say our Western culture. Like it's bigger than church culture.

It's, you know, we're invited to live disconnected from our bodies. And so how do we learn to start to reconnect with the body that God has created us in? Yeah. I feel like I could go on forever about bodies, but I will pause there. Well,

Andrew Camp: and I think it's so important. I think you are right that the body and.

Who we are bodily has to factor in to our spiritual lives in more ways than it does, or even just not even. Yeah, just our holistic lives. Um, no, [00:45:00] yes, I agree wholeheartedly with your embracing this body. And I think what I heard underline a lot of this, there seems to be in the way of the pilgrim. You have to embrace receiving versus taking.

Hmm. Um, and, and that touches on dependency, but I also think there is a difference between receiving and taking that maybe the pilgrim's life invites you into it. Am I correct in that, hearing what I was, I've been hearing?

Jen Manglos: I'm writing this down. I, I like that. Receiving versus taking. I, I think, yeah, I think that is exactly it.

Um, yeah, it's that open handed posture rather than the grabbing. Yeah. And, you know, trusting. And we will have what we actually need might not be what we might need what we need might not be a big fancy car big fancy house. [00:46:00] Maybe, um, but, but like that sense of like having what I need of my daily bread.

Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Yep. No, and I've always been a big proponent that the language we use for around the table in the Lord's table is, is when we receive communion and we never take. communion. And, um, so as I've been, you know, so that's at the forefront of my mind, but as I've been listening to you, I, you know, I've heard you needing to receive the help and aid of others, receiving gifts, um, from strangers, you know, receiving God's gifts, um, and embracing your limitations.

And so, yeah, that reception, um, our posture of receptivity, um, feels really important.

Jen Manglos: And I will say for those of us who pastor, I'm We're really good at giving, you know, like administering, but for us to receive is [00:47:00] often the challenge, you know, professionalize out our own needs often for a variety of reasons, but yeah, like it's there's something for us I think too.

I'm not I don't get to be on this pedestal because I'm able to give these things to others But actually like the beautiful thing is like this offering and receiving that takes place Between myself and those I'm encountering.

Andrew Camp: Yeah Yep. We can give Jesus, but can we receive Jesus from others? Yeah. Yeah.

It's humbling. It's hard. It's humbling, yeah. And it's hard as, as a pastor. You, you feel like you got to give Jesus to everybody. But where can Jesus show up for me?

Jen Manglos: Yeah. You know, when I took my group this first time in August, I was so anxious about, I want people to have a good experience. And I was distrustful of that, but it was still [00:48:00] operating in me.

And I was just, I was having a hard time releasing that. And one evening about our second day of walking, I was praying. I ended up going to this chapel because I was feeling that angst in me. No, this isn't how I want to be walking this. And that night I got food poisoning and, and I almost started laughing immediately because it was almost my worst fear.

Cause it's, if I had a cold, I could keep walking. I was like, I, I can't walk the next day. Like I woke up, it was kind of kicked in like a couple hours before I woke, we were all waking up and realizing, nope, I won't be walking today. And I had to, you know, a, let the group know my roommate, you know, I had to, Hey, can you, can you check in about a late checkout and transportation?

And what was so beautiful is the group came in. They [00:49:00] heard I was sick. It was this team effort. Someone goes, oh, we should let someone know about the restaurant, know that they, you know, maybe serving some dodgy food, um, , right? Or something's come bad. Someone goes, let's call ahead to the hot the next, um, place for stains and see if we can get an early check-in.

Let them know that she's not feeling well. Like they just took care of every bit, every detail. Okay, let's go to the cab. Let's let the front desk person. Mm-hmm, , like all these little details they just kind of jumped into do and. All I could do is just lay in my bed and receive it. And, and it was so, it was such a beautiful moment.

And they walked and they were fine. They made it there. Um, I made it there. Right. Through a different means. Um, and that's when the anxiety dropped for me. Um, in the act of receiving. Um, in a way I would not have chosen. Would never have chosen, you know. And it was such a profound moment [00:50:00] for me. To like, kind of, almost be forced into it, really.

Right. And, you know, there's something about a good stomach flu or food poisoning that just kind of, there, there is no resisting. You just go with it. And so, yeah, but it like forced me to this place of receiving from the group. And I'm so glad I got to receive that gift because it was so deeply meaningful for me.

And it created this different dynamic where it wasn't just, I'm the person here in charge of solely responsible for creating this experience for you, but we are a community. We are a family. And. God works in interesting ways, doesn't he? He does.

Andrew Camp: I feel like we could talk more, but, um, that's, I think, a good ending spot.

But, before we do officially close down, there are some fun questions, if you've listened before, Jen, you know. I like to end with just some fun questions, um, in rapid fire. So, what's one food you refuse to eat?

Jen Manglos: Oh, there's quite a few, but I'm going to say [00:51:00] mushrooms. Really? Yeah, I know. It's a texture thing.

Andrew Camp: Okay. Even like good wild mushrooms, like forage mushrooms. Are we just talking like baby Bella,

Jen Manglos: like any mushroom? It's a, it's a reactive response for

Andrew Camp: me. That's fair. Okay. Um, what's the best thing you have ever eaten

Jen Manglos: in Florence, Italy? I had this dish that would be three ways and three different kind of like prepared three different ways.

And one of the ways had this like vinegary mustardy sauce that was so fantastic that I finished the meat, the server went to take my plate away, and I went, Mm mm, there's sauce here, there's bread. And the server had been pretty rude with me the whole time. Um, and I think I kind of gained some, like, street cred and respect in that moment.

He kind of nodded knowingly, like, yep, yep. So, um, but that was the best thing I've eaten.

Andrew Camp: There's a conversation among chefs about last meals.

As if, [00:52:00] as in, if you knew you only had one more meal left to enjoy, what would it be? And so What would your last meal be?

Jen Manglos: My first inclination is I actually am less concerned about what the food is. Although I would hope that there would be some garlic involved because I love garlic. Um, it would more be about who's there with me.

I think would be the most important piece. Um, I'd want it to be the people who are the dearest in my life. Yeah. The people who I can just be relaxed with. I sometimes come to this idea of like, who do I feel at home with? I would want to be at a table with All those people. Um, and I'd want it to be the kind of food that was a feast.

Yeah. That just like never ended. That was a course after course after course. And then a really good wine and really good cheese. Like, so maybe it's cheese. Maybe just really good cheese needs [00:53:00] to be present and on fantastic desserts. My mom's a baker and so I have a really good patisserie on really well made bread.

I think I'd be okay with almost any style of food as long as it was just well made. Hmm. And there was lots of it. Yeah. And it was a meal that lingered. That wasn't over quickly. But this, the kind of meal you have every now and then where it just goes on for hours and you laugh. Um, the show Julia, I don't know if you've gotten to catch that.

But. No. On Mac. Sadly, it just got canceled. But the first two seasons are lovely. And there's one moment in the beginning of season two where they're in France. And they have this meal, they're trying to decide what's going in cookbook number two. And it's this feast, and people are just busting up laughing.

And it's such like, yes, that, that is what I want for my last meal. That experience.

Andrew Camp: Yep. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jen. This has been a delight. It's been fun to talk about pilgrimage and [00:54:00] food and body and, um, yeah, just the posture of a pilgrimage. So if people want to get in touch with you and learn more about your work and maybe even participate in a pilgrimage, where can they find you and how can they reach out to you?

Yeah,

Jen Manglos: well, before information, I want to thank you, too, because, um, you've been a lovely host, um, just making me feel comfortable and welcome. Just listening well and asking intriguing questions. So I just want to reflect that back to you. Um, well, well, well done, my friend. Um, but yeah, people can get a hold of me on my website.

Jen Manglos, M A N G L O S dot com. It's a weird last name. Um, we were German glass blowers, so it means man of glass. Um, yeah, I like that. I'm also on Facebook under Jen Manglos. I'm on Instagram. I don't do much social media. My website's probably the best way to get a hold of me. I have information about my work as a director, pilgrimage [00:55:00] guide, and some of the retreats I do.

And so I'd love to hear from you all. If you just want to have a conversation about pilgrimage, I can do that for hours on end.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. Yeah, and we'll make sure that website's in the show notes. So you'll find it there. So yeah, thanks again. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or sharing it with others.

Thanks again for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. Until next time, bye.