The Biggest Table

Episode 53 (Michael Shaikh)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp. And in this podcast we explore the table, food, eating and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.

And today, I'm thrilled to be joined by Michael Shaikh.

Michael is a writer and human rights investigator who has worked for 20 years in areas marred by political crisis and armed conflict. He has worked at Human Rights Watch, international Crisis Group, the Center for Civilians in Conflict, the UN's Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, and the New York City Mayor's Office of Climate and Environmental Justice. Michael is on the board of Addie Magazine. He is the author of The Last Sweet Bite Stories and Recipes of Culinary Heritage Lost and Found, which was recently published by Crown Publishing. Originally from Cleveland, Ohio he lives in New York City.

So thanks for joining me, Michael. I, I feel honored to have this conversation with you.

Michael Shaikh: Thank you. I feel the same.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. So you're a human rights [00:01:00] advocate. You've worked in the, these areas marred by conflict. You've seen the worst of humanity, and yet your book is about food. So what, where, how did, how did food come to play in, you know, in your, in your work for, for justice?

Michael Shaikh: It's a great question. Um, food, I kind of got sideswiped by it a little bit.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

Michael Shaikh: Um, and it kind of starts with my father, um, and when I was a child, um, and it actually has a, a tight connection to language. Um. When I was a small kid, my father didn't teach us his native Sydney language. He's from Pakistan.

And we would go to these Christmas parties, or we'd go to these cocktail parties and there's my father speaking another language. Sometimes my father can speak three languages, and I thought he had kind of this, these magical powers, but I, I couldn't speak that. And [00:02:00] I always want, I felt like they were my birthright.

Mm-hmm. One day we were in Pakistan, um, visiting family when I was a little kid and my cousins were making fun of me in a language I couldn't understand. And when we went back to Ohio, I was like, dad, you gotta teach me Cindy. I wanted to, 'cause I wanted the eve of the playing field, right? Yeah. Right. Yes.

Getting made fun, getting made fun by your, getting made fun of by your cousins in other languages. Uh, the injustice of it really was great. So I'm like, dad, can you teach me Cindy? He's like, no, you know, your mother doesn't speak it. I'm too busy as a physician and you're an American kid growing up in Ohio, you don't really need it.

I mean, the brushback was understandable, but it, you know, it, it hurt a little bit. Yeah. But the language bug never really left me. And where it first started intersecting with food was when I was in Japan. I had studied for Japanese, um, for a very long time, and I had lived in Japan for about three years, and I lived in this small.

Little fishing [00:03:00] village, uh, oyster Village, actually, uh, in Miyazaki Japan. And there was this wonderful woman named Keiko who ran this gorgeous little izaiah, and she kind of took me under her wing. Um, she was worried that I was single living in Japan, so I wasn't eating alone. I I wasn't eating well enough and living alone.

And so she taught me how to cook

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Michael Shaikh: Um, at, at her izakaya. And she was tea. One night. She was teaching me how to make this fried chicken, Kara. And it's an incredible recipe. Um, it's actually in the book, uh, and I had this wave of guilt wash over me. Here she is teaching me her old family recipes. In her language yet, I didn't know much about that from my culture, either my mother or my father's, uh, culture.

So I went, when I went home after that time in Japan, I was getting ready to go to graduate school and it was in the summer, uh, I forget what year, but my [00:04:00] father and I started, you know, kind of catching up after a few years of me being away. Our conversations over the course of several evenings that summer turned to, uh, his childhood in Pakistan.

And it was the first time that my father kind of opened up about that time to me. My father had survived the partition of Indian Pakistan in 1947. Um, it was one of the most brutal events of that century. Three, nearly 3 million people were killed, many more displaced. My father had witnessed some of this, um, in pa in what is now today, Pakistan, and he didn't really explain that, explain much of this to me.

Partition wasn't talked about in my family. It wasn't talked about amongst my uncles or aunts in Pakistan. And in fact, it's not something that's still talked about by that generation. Um. It's only starting to come out just a little bit. Uh, as this generation is, um, nearing the end of their lives, they're starting to talk about a little bit [00:05:00] more.

And this is, this is what happened with my father. Um, and in that moment, I saw how violence that had transpired in the 1940s, nearly 75, 80 years at that point, was reaching down through generations to steal language from me. Fast forward, you mentioned that I worked for Human Rights Watch. I was in Afghanistan.

Um, I had been in the country for several years. A dear friend of mine named Tamme Sammy had invited me over for dinner on my nearly last night in the country. And there was this incredible meal spread out before me, and I had been, like I said, I'd been in the country for several years. At that point, I hadn't eaten in almost every province, okay.

And yet, here was this meal with dishes that I didn't recognize. And part of me thought, well, Tamim is an incredible cook. And he was Afghan and like many Afghans, he had been a refugee many times. Um, he fled the, his family fled the Soviet invasion, um, went to [00:06:00] Pakistan and Iran, and then Europe and the United States.

And so he had had this amalgamation of cultures inside him and I, and being a very good cook. I thought maybe this was just fusion food of right, of some nature. And I asked him, is I particularly about this one dish, this chickpeas stew? Um, the recipe, which is also in the book, uh, like to me, is this Afghan?

I hadn't seen it before. It was kind of an arrogant question to ask, but when I asked, and I'm glad I asked, he's like, yeah, this is, this is, and I'm like, why haven't I seen it before? And we ended up in this long conversation about why Afghanistan was at war in the first place. And you know, how. How memory, how this recipe was disappearing.

Not just because ingredients became scarce, but the knowledge to make it was leaving with people. Just imagine if you're getting ready to flee a war zone or even a hurricane, you, you gather up your most prized possessions and you take them with [00:07:00] you. And that was happening with Afghans. They were taking their culinary knowledge with them as they were leaving the country.

Many not never to come back. And so in that moment, I saw those same tentacles reaching down through history. The ones that stole language and culture from my family was stealing Afghanistan's recipe. Hmm. From them. So that's kind of really how I came to see kind of the, the importance of food, um, and to culture and.

Um, and one of the, and basically inspired me to write this book.

Andrew Camp: I love the story. It's a painful story. Right. And I think so often when we think of refugees, we, you even mentioned this in the book, we, we forget about the culinary aspect that is lost. Um,

Michael Shaikh: yeah. And, you know, after that moment with Tamim, uh, you know, as a human rights investigator, you're, you're talking to eyewitnesses and often victims of violence, and you're asking them to [00:08:00] recount the worst moments of their lives during these interviews.

Um, and I often did it over a meal. Mm-hmm. And after that moment with Tamim and his dinner, where I asked, when I saw that kind of culinary theft happening in real time,

Andrew Camp: right.

Michael Shaikh: I started asking, I, I'd often do the, I'd often do my, my interviews over a meal to break it up.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: Um, it was a way to. For my interviewees and myself to focus on something outside the violence for a moment to give us a breather.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: But I started asking in these moments, like, how is the violence that I'm investigating, um, and that you, and that the people that I'm talking to have it have been deeply affected by how is it also changing the culture and particularly the food. So I started asking, how is the violence changing the food and all?

And I mean, it just opened up these incredible stories, both positive and heartbreaking at times.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Michael Shaikh: And over the course of years of doing [00:09:00] this, I came to really see the loss of one's culinary culture. Not just a recipe, but all the, uh. The structures around making food, right? The culture, like the hospitality, the ways of eating, the ways of cooking, these things are being lost.

And they were deeply personal to communities. Mm-hmm. Almost like losing a family member. Right. And, you know, at, at the same time, I mean, many of these conflict zones, I am, I'm watching big institutions like the United Nations who are spending millions of dollars restoring old buildings and old mosques and churches, uh, and temples and trying to restore old artwork, this kind of physical heritage.

And while that's really important and an incredibly worthwhile effort, there was, there wasn't a similar effort to [00:10:00] save and preserve other forms of culture that were equally important, like food in war zones.

Andrew Camp: Right. Um,

Michael Shaikh: and so I saw this kind of disconnect. And again, it, it just was like another thread. Um, that sewn together with what Tamim had showed me that night at dinner became kind of the emphasis on this book or for this book.

Andrew Camp: Right. 'cause you mentioned like you have some great quotes that, you know, my book is full of your highlights. The highlights, you know, like, but one that stuck out was food was and is an umbilical connection to our cultures and their world. Orienting philosophies in the most basic sense are cuisines ground us.

Can you even say that perhaps food is more important than language in some circumstances? Uh, and so how, like, 'cause I think for a lot of Americans we don't have that grounding culinary heritage. Like, you know, Michael Pollan says, we're all sort of this nomadic eaters eating fast food in our cars alone.

Um, you know, and so like what, how have you seen culture be grounded through food [00:11:00] in these, um, sort of violence displaced cultures?

Michael Shaikh: Yeah. Uh, I, it happens, uh. I think one of the most, uh, the clearest example that, and I write about this in the Rohingya chapter, um, the Rohingya for your listeners who may not be very familiar with them, are a group.

Uh, it's a community that lives in Western Myanmar, um, on the, um, eastern edge of the Bea Bengal. So it's where Myanmar, um, uh, borders Bangladesh.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: Uh, it's a small minority group, primarily Muslims. Um, and for, for decades they have been persecuted, uh, because of their skin color as well as their faith.

Um, and often pushed off of the land into Bangladesh, about a a million, 2 million strong, roughly. Um, and the [00:12:00] violence got very, in 2017, uh, the violence took on a much more. It has, it had always been genocidal, but. The attack became illegal genocide in August, 2017 and pushed, uh, nearly, I wanna say 700,000, maybe up to a million at this point, into camps in Bangladesh.

And not only in the camps, but in in kin state. Uh, the province or the state that the Rohingya are indigenous to, their culture had been purposely degraded by the Myanmar authorities. They were, had been preventing, um, they were stealing land. They're preventing children from going to school over a certain age.

They preventing the language for being taught the, the, their religion from being practiced. And so it was, it was having a really, a really negative, um, and destructive impact on Rohingya culture. And then there were [00:13:00] many were forced into these camps, uh, after the violence in August, 2017. And have been forced to rely on international humanitarian, uh, food aid, um, which for the most part is not reflective of their culture at all.

Andrew Camp: No.

Michael Shaikh: Um, the Rohingya had, there's this quote I have in the book that, um, was said to me often by many Rohingya that the way that the Rohingya had lived for generations was really kind of the epitome of living well off the land. Hmm. Um, many, they farmed, they fished, they grew their own spices. And when it was, and eating in a r ang hou eating in Rohingya household in in kin state, the food is just amazing.

Yeah. But now they're forced into these camps, um, living off of humanitarian food aid, which is not reflective over [00:14:00] the culture whatsoever. And food. Like it is a language and it's something that the Rohingya in the camps are trying. It's one of the last things they have, they can have a modicum of control over for sure.

Yeah. When it comes to the culture. And so they fight very hard to scrounge money to be able to buy, uh, food that is reflective of their communities with they ate at home in order to teach it to their children. Um, and it's a really kind of profound, uh, thing to see when you're in those camps.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Because you even say like, there was like a salad. Um, you know, somehow a salad always seemed to reaffirm that humans were still capable of Good. Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: There's his, yeah. Yeah. That's, yeah. It, and it's a really heartwarming thing to see. They struggle, but they place so much emphasis, particularly women, we're placing so much emphasis on.

Cooking [00:15:00] their food for their children in a way to remind them of home. They didn't, they were very concerned about the taste, memory being lost.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Michael Shaikh: And that is something they wanted to hold onto. And it's also had this kind of interesting, um, the, this, it's changing the Rohingya culture in a little way in that because it, it, it's a very conservative society.

Um, yeah. Women aren't treated the best at, even in the best times.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Michael Shaikh: Um, but because women are Rohingya women, when it comes to culinary culture, are this kind of, uh, load-bearing pillar of that aspect of the culture. And food that this, this, this desire for taste of home women have taken on and added importance in some regards in the culture become more important.

And I, I've seen young men, I've seen elderly men, [00:16:00] um, go to women in the camps and ask them to teach them or cook something for them, um, as a way to remember. But you can also see the respect that is given to them in a way that they hadn't before because they have this wealth of knowledge that it's so important that they want their children and their grandchildren to, to understand.

It's a way of just being connected to home. That umbilical connection.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And you know, I think, was it the Rohingya that were planting gardens even in the midst of these desolate refugee camps and like Yeah, they fine. Like they're holding on some to something like the hope, the resilience, just to hold on to something.

Michael Shaikh: Absolutely. Uh, they're planting different vegetables that were grown in Raan state, or Han as they call it, in their, on their, on their shelters. Um, they try very hard to, um, keep their culinary culture alive as a way to keep, as a language because they're, they're, they're, the, [00:17:00] they're, uh, the language, their spoken language is, is starting to erode as well by being surrounded by Bangla, which is, um, a sister language.

Yeah. But it's the, it's, you know, when you're, when little kids are growing up in Bangladesh, that culture is seeping into the camp also having phones. They're watching movies that are in Hindi. Right. And Bangla as well. So like that is the pop culture is affecting how the children speak.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Michael Shaikh: Um, so this, the violence is eroding.

So much, so many different aspects of the culture, but the one thing that they really can try to keep a handle on a little bit is their food. Yeah. So kind of, you know, the growing of certain vegetables and spices is a way to keep that connection to home.

Andrew Camp: The power of food to, to provide some glimmer of hope in the midst of just pure ugliness.

Like Yeah. To hold onto that food culture, you know, [00:18:00] it's just, there's something beautiful about it. Yeah. Um, you know, that I think we don't often see, um, you know, and like, and so what led you to these, like, you tell the stories, you know, of Czech Republic, Sri Lanka, you know, you just, um, the RGA people and then you're in the Uyghur people, Bolivia.

Like what led you to these specific stories? 'cause some of them are great 'cause it's stories I wasn't familiar with. Um,

Michael Shaikh: yeah. Um. I, I mostly focused on the places that I had a connection to.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Michael Shaikh: Um, the places I had worked primarily, and I also wanted, and, and those are largely places that aren't on the front page of the New York Times.

Right. Right. They're more the LA Times to Washington Post. So I wanted to bring stories of communities that I had a connection to, but also didn't have, um, weren't getting the attention that, you know, they were just falling off the front. [00:19:00] They're falling out of the headlines. And so those are the communities and, and the cultures and the recipes that I had chosen.

There's a few in there that I, I hadn't worked on. I countries I hadn't worked in professionally like Bolivia. Mm-hmm. But I was just generally interested in what was going on there. Yeah. Um, I had, you know, the, the, the drug wars were so violent. That I, after seeing the violence in other places affect the culinary culture that I, I was very just, I was very interested in, in that vi, in those violent episodes and wondering what the, um, culinary impact was there.

And so it was a combination of places I had worked. It was a combination of places that I thought needed more attention that the world seemed to be forgotten, forgetting about, and some that I was just generally interested in, but kind of fell into the, the, the second category of like, the world I think should know more about this.

Right. Or just like keep it on the radar screen. Yeah. Um, so yeah, there were a few other chapters I really wanted to have in the book as well that [00:20:00] were, um, personal to me. Um. I had wished that I had, uh, included a chapter on Cambodia.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Michael Shaikh: Um, particularly this year is the 50th anniversary, um, about, you know, a terrible anniversary of that, of the Cambodian genocide.

Yeah. And a violence event, which has a very, very tight nexus to food. Mm-hmm. Um, and starvation. Um, I had wish, I had tried to write a, a chapter on South Africa and the resurgence of black South African cooking. Right. Um, and the effects of apartheid on that. Um, and, uh, Syria. But, you know, for, for it, I had to time, money, resources.

Yep. Um, you know, I, you know, life just kind of got in the way of like making the book a a little bit bigger. But I think, um, I. I think the book, it, it got it, it got the essential points across that I think I needed to get across. And hopefully I can write about those other [00:21:00] chapters at some other point.

Andrew Camp: And was there a place that left a bigger impact on you that you were surprised by? Or, uh,

Michael Shaikh: all of these places, like a hold, like very special places in me and have left indelible marks on both my, on my soul and my heart and my mind. I will say that, um, the one,

perhaps maybe the, the. The chapter on the Pueblo Nations and the epilogue, which looks at the impact of the Manhattan Project Still on. Yeah. Not only indigenous communities in New Mexico, but Nuevo Mexicanos and then, um, the broader Mexican Mexico community. Like turning that lens on my own country

Andrew Camp: Right.

Michael Shaikh: At, um, and directly looking at the legacies of its violence on our, on our people.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Michael Shaikh: Um, and I think that was one, one of the most eye-opening.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Michael Shaikh: Um, [00:22:00] personally, you know, being, giving given permission to be able to tell, tell story, tell the stories of the people I did of from the Santa Clara Pueblo, particularly the Anos, Marian and Ray, her son.

Yeah. But also, you know, over those conversations of getting to know them, getting to know their culinary traditions, getting to know and learning about their, their everyday. Persistence to keep those wonderful culinary traditions alive. Mm-hmm. Um, and see, and like, because it's so deep, because those traditions are deeply embedded and connected to everything else.

Yeah. Um, it's almost impossible to separate Pueblo food for traditions from, you know, their faith, their, their landscape. Right. And so learning that, but at the same time in the background, um, is Los Alamos National Laboratory. Right. And the legacy of the Manhattan Project, and it was inescapable. [00:23:00] Um, in many of the conversations that I had, uh, I thought long and hard about.

I didn't know whether or not I include that. Um, I didn't know how to include it, but it just felt very important. It was very important to those, to those families that I had. Uh. I had been talking to about, for that chap I had been talking to, um, for that chapter. And I went back out and to New Mexico and, uh, for a couple trips and really focused on the, and learned about, um, the legacy of the Manhattan Project and the explosive testings on the plateau and, and kind of the, the nuclear garbage and radioactive garbage that spread around New Mexico because of that and how it's affecting the lives and livelihoods and cul culinary cultures of many new Mexican communities.

So I think that that probably has left, um. The deepest cut, but also given me the most hope in some ways.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Michael Shaikh: [00:24:00] Um, for how people are, um, responding and thinking about and coming together and acting collectively. Um, it's a real crime that the federal government still has a, doesn't recognize. Uh, the people of New Mexico were the first victims of an atomic weapon.

We, we, we constantly, you know, and not to take anything away at all from the Akha, the first victims of Hiroshima No. Of nuclear or of, of not the first victims, but of Hiroshima. Nagasaki. Yeah. Um, but American citizens were really the first victims. And Congress continues to ignore their, their calls for recognition and compensation.

Andrew Camp: That chapter was super eye-opening. 'cause we don't, you know, we've being raised here. You, you see the pictures of them testing, but you don. You know, it's always pictured as a desolate desert with no human activity around. Right. You know, and so to hear of, [00:25:00] you know, livestock being ruined, and even to this day, they're afraid to eat some of the vegetables 'cause of the still ongoing radiation found, uh, there.

Michael Shaikh: Yeah. And, and uh, and, and that story like the, the, like Los Alamos was an empty baren plateau, right. That, that even that, that has seeped into our popular culture. If you just looked at Oppenheimer, the movie that was a blockbuster last year, right? It was almost, I think there was one reference to, to Native Americans.

Um, but that plateau had been inhabited for millennia. Yeah. By, um, several different indigenous nations and was a, it was, and is a very spiritual place to them.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: Um, and so just acknowledging that that place is there and has special connection and always has, I mean, just getting to that has been a real challenge.

Um, [00:26:00] an unnecessary challenge for the Pueblos and other, um, native American communities in that area.

Andrew Camp: And just the food injustice done to the indigenous people in this land is Mm. Criminal Like I, you know, I'm in Flagstaff, Arizona and you know, oh, okay. Near Navajo Nation and the Apache, and, um, recently got to meet Nephi Craig, who's a, um, Apache.

Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, and to hear him talk about, you know, decolonizing. You know, their food and re, you know, helping use food as a healing, um, and a restoration movement for his people, um, you know, is such a needed stories we need to tell.

Michael Shaikh: Absolutely. Absolutely. And the yes, the, the colonization, a dual colonization, particularly in that part of the United States, first Spanish colonization followed right by American colonization on these communities.[00:27:00]

Just it nearly obliterated. Um, not only the culinary cultures of these indigenous nations, but a lot of other cultures, you know? Yeah. Forcing them off their land, forcing them to eat, taking their children away from them, right. Putting them in boarding schools, forcing them to speak another language. Use another name, eat different foods, um, this forcible assimilation and then putting them on, re forcing them onto reservations.

Yeah. Um, again, and drip feeding them rations. Yeah. Uh, and now you have the commodity food programs, which is a, you know, maybe not a direct descendant, but certainly related to the food rations, uh, the US military food rations that were, that indigenous communities were forced to survive off of. And now you have this, this other program that doesn't really reflect the culinary traditions or food cultures that of the indigenous peoples [00:28:00] and are unhealthy and addictive and, and yeah.

You know, connected to diabetes and all sorts of other

Andrew Camp: Right.

Michael Shaikh: Uh, terrible things. And yet, you know. It, it's a real, and, and, and the fight that every day that indigenous households and now chefs like Nephi Craig right. Or Sean Sherman or Kilo Domingo, you know, are, are fighting every day amongst many others

Andrew Camp: Right.

Michael Shaikh: To right. You know, to, to beat back the, these historical legacies.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: Um, with very little help from the federal government, right? Mm-hmm. Right. To acknowledge its own problem. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And I think it's just to share shed light on these stories here, so where people, it's so easy for us to think of displacement violence happening, you know, across the ocean.

But for us to see our own complicity, um, in this problem, you know, and that it's, it's right here in our own backyard. Uh,

Michael Shaikh: yeah. And it's, and it's continuing. Um, yeah. It's [00:29:00] not only with the, with Native American communities, but with looking at what's happening with our current, our current, the policies of our current federal government.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Michael Shaikh: You know. The, the brutality that is being inflicted, uh, by ice agents on immigrants in this country. Legal and illegal. Yeah. Right. And I think, you know, that, that, and, and forcing these people into horrendous, um, uh, detention facilities, um, the family separations. Yeah. Um, the, these things have an impact on our culture.

If we care about food, we have to care about what's happening to the people who make our food. Mm-hmm. And then care about, like, you know, I, I think, you know, when we're, when our federal government is going after immigrants in this [00:30:00] nature, it is having an effect on the people who make our food, who grow our food, who deliver our food to our front doors.

Yeah. And I think we, we have to, you know, look at this seriously, like yes, the country has an immigration problem,

Andrew Camp: right.

Michael Shaikh: But it can be dealt with humanely.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: You know, it can be dealt with in a way that respects our, our common humanity. There's love for one another, there's community for one another, and respects our culture.

Right. Yeah. And, and I think we're, we're moving away from this, what makes I think the United States so wonderful is that there are many different cultures that are, are working in tandem with each other. Yes. There, there are problems all the time, right. It's not an easy thing, but nowhere on the planet is there.

Is it harmonious? But I think the diversity makes us strong. It makes us colorful, like it makes our food great. Yeah. And again, I think if you're interested in food, you gotta kind of care what's happening. To the people who make our food and try to do something to help them.

Andrew Camp: It's a complicated mess [00:31:00] and it's not Yeah. Getting any easier and, you know, but how, what, how food can play a role in all of this, I think is important story Yeah. To remember.

Michael Shaikh: Yeah. And I think one of the things that you can do is just understand that the food on your plate is political. Yeah. You know, ask, ask questions.

Mm-hmm. Um, because you know why it's there and why it might not be there in the future. Right. Yeah. Who, how did that food get there? Who brought it there? Um, and why did you know, why did the farmers in the Salinas Valley or the farmer or the winemaker or the, the grape pickers in, in Oregon, why are they there?

Right? Yeah. And thinking about that and what, and how are they making our lives better?

Andrew Camp: Right.

Michael Shaikh: So I think, or you know, but just understanding of what's on your plate is political is a really important first step.

Andrew Camp: It is. Um, to switch gears a little, 'cause one of the chapters I loved, or, you know, loved is a [00:32:00] weird word to say in your book, you know, uh, I enjoyed and resonated with was Yeah, the Uyghurs in Xinjiang.

'cause I spent time, three years in Kunming China and there was a small Uyghur population and got to try their food and always loved their kebabs, the noodles. Um, oh, right. Yeah. You know, and so like, you know, obviously that connection, you know, there's a, you know, a lived connection there. Um, and so yeah, help the listeners, you know, 'cause I think they're, it's almost, um, stark of, you know, that, you know, this halal cuisine is not just part of who they are.

It's central in the Chinese government trying to, you know, obliterate that, um. You know? Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: Yeah. Um, that was a very difficult chapter to write. Um, I had spent some time in Xinjiang years and years ago. Um, but it, it felt like it, it was a, a conflict that had fallen off the [00:33:00] front pages of Right. Of the newspapers and, and the press more generally.

And what's happening there is really just the Chinese Communist Party. And I'm being very careful here not to lump in the entire Chinese population. 'cause many of 'em do care what's happening. Many people do care what's happening to the Uyghurs, but are also all facing a similar, some other, many other Chinese communities are facing similar aspects with forced assimilation.

Yeah. And Tibetans, um, as well. But this is a forced assimilation project, very similar to what, um, the federal government here in the United States carried out against indigenous Americans. So this is a contemporary. Uh, analog that's playing out in real time. Um, trying to force Uyghurs away from their own Islamic, uh, cultural traditions and culinary traditions and historical traditions into a more main, into a more kind of party [00:34:00] approved version of Chin, uh, of what a good Chinese citizen is like.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Michael Shaikh: Um, and one of the main ways I have been doing this is that is attacking, um, Uyghur culinary churches trying to put their, their hand in between the Uyghur hand and their mouth. Mm-hmm. And one of them, one of the tactics of this is forcing we Uyghur Muslims, um, follow a practice called Halal eating.

Um, it's a, it's a way, um, it's very much like, eh, it's not a perfect ana analog, but very much like a kosher eating.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Michael Shaikh: Um. It is central to the way many Muslims eat. Yep. Um, and there are pro, uh, prescriptions and prohibitions and pro and two of the prohibitions of Hal of, of Halal is not eating pork and not drinking alcohol.

And the Chinese Communist Party [00:35:00] has forced Uyghurs to do both.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: Um, and that, uh, and that really is a, is an attack on the Uyghur identity in many ways. Mm-hmm. Um, and one of the, one of the main ways that the Chinese Communist Party are forcibly assimilating, basically trying to beat the Uyghur identity.

Other, the we out of the Uyghurs is interning them in these prison camps.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: Where they're forced to go under for forced to undergo indoctrination. And part of that indoctrination re is starvation. Um, there are. Uh, Turkic Muslims who live, not just Uyghurs, but Kazakhs, uh, who are also Turkic Muslims who live, who live in Xinjiang, have given testimony about how the Chinese Communist Party in these internment camps have forced Uyghurs and Kazakhs and others, um, to live without food for days on end, starving them.

And then on [00:36:00] Fridays will allow them to eat and the only thing that they will give them is pork. Hmm. You know, there, there are, there are, there's been testimony, there's, there's, you know, there's videos online of Uyghurs and elderly Uyghurs being forced to drink at drinking contests in public as a way to, um, you know, show their, I dunno if it's a loyalty, but.

You know, show that they're not terrorists like

Andrew Camp: Right.

Michael Shaikh: You know, the, the Uyghur, if you eat Halal, it's a sign of extremism.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: And for the, for the Chinese Communist Party eating po, you know, not abstaining from pork is a sign of extremism. The Chinese Communist Party has this list of, I think, 70 forms of extremism.

Wow. And not eating pork, not abstaining from alcohol are signs of extremism, which could end you up in one of these internment camps, um, for indoctrination and million. And, and, and I think roughly a million people. Yeah. Um, according [00:37:00] to Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have ended up in these internment camps.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Michael Shaikh: Um, which are now being transformed into labor camps. And part of this process of assimilation is a playbook, taking a playbook outta the u uh, the US federal government of stealing children, putting 'em to boarding schools. The Communist Party of China is doing that now to Chinese, uh, or to Uyghur children.

Yeah. Separating from the families. Putting them in, in boarding schools, um, forcing them to speak another language, forcing them to, um, take up other cultures, culinary, um, traditions, and just basically trying to, um, erase the Uyghur identity. Wow.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. So in the midst of this, you've seen, like you said, you've, you've seen and heard devastating stories, and so how, how do you maintain hope and joy, you know, or what gives you hope, you know, to keep [00:38:00] telling these stories, you know, and not become a jaded pessimist?

Yeah,

Michael Shaikh: so I think, you know, I, I, yes, this book is about how violence changes cuisines, but the other half of it is how the human rights activists, the home cooks and chefs are fighting every day to keep their food cultures alive and that. Watching them do that, learning how they've done that is real inspiration.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: Um, I look at, uh, women like Marian Naranjo at the Santa Clara Pueblo, who has worked with her community to, uh, not only rebuild the physical structures in which to make, um, ua, which is, which I talk about in the book, which is a, um, a philo dough like bread. It's a traditional pueblo bread. But bringing that tradition back, yeah.

Um, working the community to [00:39:00] build, um, a boah house, um, to teach young Pueblo women how to, how to make it like, and just, you know, watching that and, and learning about that has been a real inspiration. Um, the Rohingya women in the camp that I have been fortunate enough to. To know for many years and what they're trying to do to help their children.

Um, the respect that they're now, um, seeing, being given as kind of these, uh, bearers of Rohingya culture, um, is an inspiration. You know, in some ways it's not, it's not happening across the camp generally, but in small pockets, you're seeing, um, some really interesting things happen. Uh, you know, watching how Bolivian chefs like Marcia Taha, um, are using the Coca Leaf, the precursor to cocaine, the, the, the Coca Leaf, and using it as a form of political [00:40:00] resistance and education about the drug wars and how it's.

The terrible impact on ND and food cultures, like all of this gives me a lot of hope. The creativity, the ingenuity, and the resi, the persistence of people to push back. Um, so yeah, I, and I've, I've tried to take that as much as I can, um, into my own, uh, life, uh, to kind of help beat back the, you know, the very easy pitfalls of pessimism to, you know,

Andrew Camp: right

Michael Shaikh: around these days.

But, um, I think part of this book is, you know, if you read it, you'll see all these little kind of tact strategies and tactics for getting through tough times. Yeah. Right. And I think that's something that we, we need right now

Andrew Camp: for sure. And most often it, it involves our culinary traditions re-discovering something beautiful that was, that may soon [00:41:00] be lost.

Michael Shaikh: Yeah. And like the food itself, I mean. Andrew, one of the re like I almost, I wanted to write this book, so how I got many of these recipes people when I was interviewing, uh, people. And I would off, like I said, I'd often do my, uh, human rights interviews over a meal. Yeah. I can't tell you how many times people would tell my translator or take my notebook from me and write down recipes.

Andrew Camp: Oh, wow.

Michael Shaikh: Um, so they, their family recipes or things that were emblematic of their broader culture to take out of the war zone, um, for me as a gift or because they didn't want their family recipe to be lost.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: And it, I wanted to write stories around the rest. Like I wanted to just, I kind of wanted to do a little, I wanted to do a cookbook, but I, when I start, when I started to write down the recipes, I needed to tell the story.

Like, it, it just felt disconnected.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: From life not to tell the stories, the people who gave it to me in a much [00:42:00] more fulsome way. And it, it ended up being, seeing. Um, their lives in a much more fulsome way. Yeah. Um, and cooking these recipes to recipe test them, like, it just, it, it made it much more tangible.

Yeah. Um, and I do think that's why, that's why I put the recipes in the book, um, in the, in the way that they are. Because when you cook them, I think when you cook someone else's recipes or cook with them, you get to see them get to see people in a much different and more positive way.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: Uh, and so that also gives me a lot of hope, you know, and food is community.

It is. Right, right. And community. And that's all the, that's like the, the underlying theme of this book is community. 'cause everyone is cooking for their community, right. To help keep their communities moving forward, their cultures innovating, and how personal our food is to us. Mm-hmm. And how beautiful and wonderful it is, and how much it teaches us.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: Um, and so yeah, [00:43:00] that's the other, that's kind of the, the other part of the book, right?

Andrew Camp: I think sharing the recipes, but also the stories like, you know, we as Americans like to co-opt everything and sort of take it and make it fashionable, but I think your book really shows the human side of it and gives us, it makes it richer.

I think, you know, like, yeah, the recipes without the stories would've been fine, but I think both together just produce a beauti more beautiful thing so that if. When, and if I do try one of the recipes, I can, you feel a story with the recipe versus just a recipe?

Michael Shaikh: Yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah. And all the recipes in the book are really good.

I actually, I didn't, I didn't choose them because they were good. I actually chose them because those, those are mostly the ones that were given to me. Yeah. And the stories were, and the stories are really fascinating. Um, but they're all good. Sure. They're all wonderful. I would cook them all the time.

Andrew Camp: I need to procure some ingredients before trying some of, especially the curry, you know, I love a good curry,

Michael Shaikh: you

Andrew Camp: know? Oh

Michael Shaikh: yeah. There's [00:44:00] a couple really good curries in the book.

Andrew Camp: Um, any, you know, if, if people, you know, when they buy your book, what, is there one recipe you're like, Hey, try this one first.

Or is it just like you

Michael Shaikh: I can't, I don't play favorites in this one. 'cause I have to say that they're all my favorites. I will say, if I had to give you one piece of advice or unless there's one piece of advice. Don't get intimidated by the ingredients list. Like you can break up a lot of these recipes into a, like a weekend.

It's fun cooking. Do it with friends. Yeah. Um, but you won't go wrong, uh, spending the time, uh, doing it and I think, um, reading the book and then cooking the recipes or get a fuller understanding of the people that I've introduced you to.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And what do you hope, you've sort of alluded to it, but like what, you know for people, Westerners, Americans who read your book, what do you like if they come away with one thing, what's like, what do you hope your book gives to the world?[00:45:00]

Michael Shaikh: You know, how, mainly how important our culinary traditions are to us, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think if. You know, if a culinary, if something is so important to destroy, if governments actually spend a lot of time and energy understanding their enemy's food culture in order to destroy it, it should be that important to protect.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Michael Shaikh: Um, and I think I would, I want to, from a policy level, I want those policymakers to read it, to understand that our food cultures are just important as other forms of culture that they need to be put on. We need to spend as much attention, um, protecting our food cultures and more as we do other forms of cultural heritage.

And I think [00:46:00] that is something I'd like people to take away to see that it's, you know, an old painting is just important as an old recipe. Yeah. Many times they carry different things, right? Yeah. They're not perfectly analogous, but they carry different. Parts of our history and sentiments and nuances about our culture, um, to other parts of the world.

So we need, we need to pay attention to that, uh, and respect that. Hmm. Um, I think we all inherently get this right? Yeah. I think on a, on a community level, like, but I don't think our policy makers tend to get this, um, the ones that really are responding to, to crisis. I mean, you know, this is a bit harder now because of not just the United States, what's happening in the United States with the world back of humanitarian aid, but in other parts of the world.

There, there, I wouldn't say it's si uh, I wouldn't say the scale is similar, but there has been, um, a reluctance to really support humanitarians, um, in a robust way that we have in the past. And I think that is [00:47:00] gonna have really. Really, really negative impacts on other forms of culture. I mean, the USAID cuts, it's, it's, I can't, the, the, I can't put into words kind of the destructive impact that is not only already having Right.

But will continue to have for generations. Um, um, and I think there will be not only human consequence, not only physical human consequences, but there'll be some pretty dramatic cultural consequences that we're gonna lose things. Yeah. Um, humanity will lose things. And I think that's what makes human, you know, that it just makes life worth living.

Right. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I think if there's another thing that I want people to take away is the role of women. Mm-hmm. In producing food culture. You know, women have played a central [00:48:00] role for. Since time immemorial when it comes to our food cultures, and we need the story of food and war is also the story of women and girls in war.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: And I think if we want to be more serious about protecting food, we need to be more serious about protecting women and girls. Mm-hmm. And I think one of the most important things we can do is end this crime or make this phenomenon a crime called domicide. And it's something that a lot of people don't know about.

And, um, if you'll permit me a second, just explain it. domicide is this, um, event and war in which, uh, homes, neighborhoods, towns en mass are flattened. Gaza.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: Pol uh, Munga and Myanmar, uh, cartoon Where, and like when homes and neighborhoods are flattened in this scale. That means [00:49:00] kitchens are flattened in this scale.

Mm-hmm. And kitchens are where women and girls, for better or worse, spend a lot of their time per, you know

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: Cooking, you know, get, you know, making, you know, making our, keeping our families together. When those places are destroyed, our cultures are destroyed, um, in a way. So I think we should outlaw this crime.

Yeah. We should make domicide a crime. Um, like with the crime of apartheid, crime of torture, um, as well. Uh, so that's, and that would do go a long way immediately protecting families in times of war. Yeah. Right Now people need places to live. Yeah. If we can't live, we can't cook. No. And you're seeing this right now.

You're seeing this right now in Gaza.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, no, um, so many more stories, um, to tell. Um, but if, what's the story you would want the table to tell?[00:50:00]

Michael Shaikh: You know this, I, I come back to how the table is in my own life. My mother, uh, had a very kind of isolating childhood. She didn't know much of her extended family and it was something that she wanted to she that she made. She made sure that my brother and sister and I had family all around us when we were young, when we, when we were growing up, and she really had to create a entirely new culture from scratch.

Wow. Um. For my brother and sister and I, and she made sure that we had CU aunts and uncles and cousins and family friends around us at the holidays all the time and the way that she didn't. Um, and it made my life, made my brother and sisters, and I know it's made my cousins and my aunts and uncles life richer.

Yeah. [00:51:00] Uh, again, this is like the role of women and what women do for us,

Andrew Camp: right.

Michael Shaikh: Um, in our cultures, but. When I think of the table specifically and the intersection of those ideas, like every Thanksgiving and every Christmas, our tables are constantly getting longer. Hmm. There's more chairs there. It's, it's more crowded, it's more lively.

There's more food. And I think, you know, that the, that kind of generosity, you know, I, I look at a table, I look at my kitchen table when I'm sitting at right now, and it really does symbolize community and hospitality and generosity to me. And so I think, you know, every time you look at a, at a table, I think, what is it trying to tell you about those things and.

Um, should it be longer? Yeah. Right. Hmm. Right. Should we have a longer table? There's Afghan saying, um, that you can tell a person's generosity by the length of their tablecloth, and it's a little different in, [00:52:00] um, it loses a little bit in translation, but yeah, I think, um, the length of your tablecloth says a lot about who you are, and I think we should all be sewing longer tablecloths.

Andrew Camp: I love that, especially in today's age where I think so much of a meal can humanize, um, people Yeah. And allow you to see the story and what the values that lay, lay beneath. Um,

Michael Shaikh: yeah. You know, Andrew, I think another thing, going back to your question about what I like your, going back to your earlier question about your audience takeaway, again, I go back to things in my own personal life.

I still don't speak my father's language, Cindy.

Andrew Camp: Right. But

Michael Shaikh: the way that I access and learn, have learned about my father's culture is through cooking Cindy cuisine.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Michael Shaikh: And I think one of the simplest things that anyone can do to be interested, um, or who are interested in other learning about other places, you know, pick up a cookbook, cook the food.

Right. You know, I think it, it can tell you a lot and don't get, don't get worried about whether or not a taste right or it's [00:53:00] authentic. I think you, you, you lose a lot in these arguments around authenticity. Yeah. But just try it and be curious. I think that's the most important thing is just curiosity.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm. I love it. Yeah. Being curious with recipes, being curious about cultures. Um, you never, I've never been gone wrong, you know, trying a new dish or. You know, branching out my, you know, repertoire of food or, you know, what I've tried at a restaurant, you know? Mm-hmm. There's always something beautiful about trying a new dish and being exposed to what that culture can bring.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So some fun questions to wrap up and I'm, I'm, you know, I'm really curious about your answers, given the nature of your book. Is there one food you refuse to eat?

Michael Shaikh: No, there's foods I don't like. Okay. Uh, but I, I ha I don't, I don't, I can't think of what off the top of my head that I refuse to eat.

Um, yeah, I guess, [00:54:00] I mean, there are probably definitely things that, things were ethical reasons and kind of, you know, I'd have to, if a dish was made in a way that. Had just brutalized an animal in some way. I pro I probably wouldn't, but I, I try to think ab, I try to think about where my food, food is sourced.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: Um, and try to maintain, um, a pretty solid ethical standard when it comes to that.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Michael Shaikh: Uh, understand you can't all the time.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Michael Shaikh: But yeah, there's not a, I can't think of, I can't think of one, but maybe I'll think maybe as we talk, it'll come up to come to me.

Andrew Camp: I guess in line with that, I'd be curious, was there a meal in your travels and in your conversations, is there a dish that you were served that you was hard to eat?

Or like, you know, that you had to like, you know, you ate, but you had to wince or you know, you thought like, oh wow, like I've never thought I'd be eating this.[00:55:00]

Michael Shaikh: Yeah, I mean, I think there was a few times in Central Asia that I ate pickled horse meat.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

Michael Shaikh: Uh, and you know, I, the first time I went, the second and third time, I, you know, maybe, maybe it would take me, you know, several times to, to get there. But yeah, I, I understood it. No way. I wouldn't say it was it, but yeah.

I mean, it starts, it makes me ask questions. Yeah. I, I definitely, I definitely winced, uh, on that.

Andrew Camp: Okay. That's fair. Um,

Michael Shaikh: so there's a, there's a few places. I mean, I remember the first time that. I was served, um, sugarcoated bees in a bar in Japan. Okay. Um, I went there, but they were pretty good. They ended up, I'm sure being pretty good.

Um, you know, it's like, you know, in Oaxaca, chaps, the Yeah, the fry crickets. I mean, you just, you get acculturated to them.

Andrew Camp: No, and I think, again, when you learn the story or understand, you know, sometimes the honor of being served, what you're being served, like it can change your perspective. And, um, at times, [00:56:00] um, on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Michael Shaikh: Oh, wow. One of the best things I've ever, I've ever eaten. I still remember the first pomegranates I've ever eaten. Okay. That's one of my favorite food memories. Uh, I was a little kid in Pakistan and I remember my father slicing into it with, with my mother sitting there and all this, this beautiful red juice.

It was like this alien fruit.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: And I hadn't seen before. And I remember as a little kid, like vaguely thinking like these little, like the seeds that came out were like little jewels or were they like little red legos, right. Yeah. My, my brain, I mean, I just remember when I ate it. Hmm. Like this sweet hangs of it was just spectacular and just has like, it's like, uh, it's left an indelible mark on my culinary soul for sure.

Andrew Camp: Interesting.

Michael Shaikh: Remember the first time I had a really good curry, you know, Thai curry in Bangkok.

Andrew Camp: [00:57:00] Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: Um, and eating a Mac root lime leaf for the first time. Hmm. Those were really good things. I mean, those are some of my best food memories. Um, sure. To be honest with you.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: Uh, things I love though, but like I really, one of the things I absolutely love is the crab curry that's in the book, the Elam Tamil crab curry.

I remember when I ate that for the first time, it, my head spun. I had vertigo. Okay. Okay. Um, and so if there's one that's a really fantastic dish and I think that. I, I, I hope it won't do some positive vertigo in you as your Yeah. You and your audience as well.

Andrew Camp: No, I think that was one of the recipes I remember looking at and being like, oh my gosh, this feels, I, I want to try this.

Michael Shaikh: It's really, really good. It's one of those things you can break up and a recipe you can break up into parts. Okay. You don't have to do it all the on the same day.

Andrew Camp: Okay. Fair enough. And finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in, if you knew you only had one more meal left to enjoy, what would it be?

And so if Michael had one last meal, what might be on his table? [00:58:00]

Michael Shaikh: My last meal wouldn't be about the food. It would be making sure that I have my loved ones around me.

Andrew Camp: For sure. Absolutely. But I, when I ate it, I think

Michael Shaikh: that's what it comes down to is food is really important, but it, it also, like you said, it's our umbilical connection to community and place and others.

And, you know, it could be a salt team, but as long as my wife for my. Brother and sister are my good friends and you know, yeah. God hope, you know, I hope I outlive my parents, you know? Right. I think they want me to outlive them, but I mean, uh, but yeah, those that I love to be around me, you know, at my last meal.

Right. Yeah. That's kind of it. But if I had to choose something, yeah. I, there are some oysters that I've had mm-hmm. Uh, particularly those in Japan that I would, I would love, I mean, I, I do really, I do love oysters. And [00:59:00] I can also think of also simple meal of rice and doll. I love kebo, like C Kops. Yeah. You know, but, you know, I.

Yeah. Um, and I do, you know, a good pasta too, you know. Yeah. Uh, bot targa, I love bot targa. Mm-hmm. I mean, I need these things, but honestly I go back to, it's kind of making sure that I had the right people around me. I can, I can ask some really crappy food. Yeah. But you know, if I'm sharing that bad food with good people, you tend to remember the memory.

Right.

Andrew Camp: You do. Yeah. No, not every food memory needs to be white truffle risotto, but you know, you got it. If it's the right people, you know, Kraft mac and cheese and chicken nuggets are just as fine.

Michael Shaikh: They're great. I love it.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. You know, and Yeah. Especially if you have kids, you know, it's sometimes Kraft Mac and cheese and, you know, Dino Nuggets can create lasting memories.

Michael Shaikh: Oh yeah. Yeah. Listen, I will, I I always steal my little nephew, nieces and nephews, uh, chicken nuggets and their barbecue sauce. 'cause [01:00:00] it's good. Good.

Andrew Camp: It's good food. It's good. Yep. Exactly. Well, Michael, I've really appreciated this conversation. I appreciate they hope you bring, but also the light you're shedding.

Um, about these issues, um, from elevating women, um, to elevating these cultures that we often miss, you know, don't see on the front page. And so if people wanna learn more about your work, where, where can they find you?

Michael Shaikh: So my website is michael shaikh.com. Um, there's a lot on there about this book and a few videos about it as well.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Shaikh: Um, and then my Instagram is at milkshake. Um, okay. So it's the, the shake is spelled S-H-A-I-K-H. Yep. Um, it was my nickname growing up as a little kid.

Andrew Camp: Oh, fun. Awesome.

Michael Shaikh: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Well, really appreciate it, Michael. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing it with others.

Thanks for joining us on this episode of the Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. Until next time, bye.