The Biggest Table

Episode 14 (Adam McHugh)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp. In this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.

And today I'm thrilled to be joined by Adam McHugh. Adam is a wine tour guide, a sommelier, and a certified specialist of wine. He is the author of three books, including Introverts in the Church, The Listening Life, and most recently, Blood from a Stone, a memoir of how wine brought me back from the dead. He is also a regular contributor to Edible Santa Barbara and Wine Country. He lives in the Santa Ynez Valley on the California Central Coast.

So thanks for joining me today, Adam.

Adam McHugh: Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. So I first became aware of your work through the listening life. Um, and we corresponded a little bit back when that book first released in 2015, which feels like eons ago. Um, and so, but a lot has changed for sort of both of us [00:01:00] since that time.

And, um, you are now immersed in this world of wine. And so what What drew you into this world?

Adam McHugh: It's, uh, I mean, it's a book length story, literally. That's what my most recent book, my memoir, Blood from a Stone, is all about. It was far from a linear process. It was a rollercoaster, a tumultuous journey, to say the least.

Um, I was, I've been into wine for a very long time. My family, when I was growing up in Seattle, were big wine drinkers. They always opened a really special bottle of wine on Sunday. I never drank wine until my twenties, but I always kind of suspected that wine would be a part of my life, you know, socially and personally, I didn't really suspect that I would go into it.

Professionally, but while I was writing all my previous books, when I was a minister, a Presbyterian minister and a hospice chaplain, I, [00:02:00] I was already escaping up the coast. I lived in the L. A. area at the time. And while I was writing those previous works, and I was already escaping up the coast to what's called the San Ynez Valley, where I live now, just north of Santa Barbara.

To, uh, to taste the wines, to breathe the fresh air, to take in the landscapes. And it was my retreat in many ways. It was sort of my one form of therapy for me, especially when I was working as a hospice chaplain, as I did for about 10 years and, uh, the San Ynez Valley became increasingly important as sort of a refuge for me during those years.

Andrew Camp: You know, so some of our listeners probably aren't familiar with the Santa Ynez Valley. We always associate California with Napa, Sonoma, and rightfully so to, um, whatever degree you like Napa Valley. Um, but what is so special to you about the Santa Ynez area?

Adam McHugh: In a lot of ways, it still feels like old California.[00:03:00]

Uh, I appreciate Napa and none of us would be here if it, if it weren't for Napa. People started getting priced out of Napa all the way back in the seventies and eighties and started exploring other parts of California where they thought they could plant wine grapes and make premium wines in the San Ynez Valley, just north of Santa Barbara.

We're only about. Two and a half hours north of Los Angeles here. So in a lot of ways, it's kind of the first great wine region you come to as you're coming north from, from LA, it is the first great wine region you come to coming north out of LA. And, uh, but what, what I love about it is it's still family owned, it's still very independent.

There aren't big corporations. There are, there are a few, and, uh, we're seeing it a little bit more, but for the most part, all the wineries here are independent and family owned. Making fewer than 10, 000 cases. Many of them make fewer than 5, 000 cases. And, uh, there's sort of this, this interesting culture here of the old West kind of meets, [00:04:00] uh, you know, the ocean, the sort of, uh, interaction between surfers and Cowboys here that, uh, that feels vintage, that feels like old California.

There's a lot of undeveloped land here. People think of California. If you're not from the area and you think of LA, you think of Hollywood, you think of San Francisco, you think of all of these beach communities or you think of Orange County. The, the reality is once you get just a little bit outside of LA, it's actually very undeveloped and there's some completely pristine coastline here in Santa Barbara County.

That's unlike anything else I've experienced in California.

Andrew Camp: So then what makes then the wine? Of Santa Barbara and, uh, this region special,

Adam McHugh: it's a combination of a number of different factors, as you would imagine. But the thing that we all like to talk about here, and I gave it a few pages of my book is this very strange geography.

That we have, if you're coming up north from, if you're looking at a map of California and [00:05:00] you're coming north from Los Angeles, you'll see this horizontal line that juts out from the coast of California out into the ocean, and that is the coastline of Santa Barbara and then just north of that. And, uh, there's a mountain range that runs exactly parallel to the coastline of Santa Barbara called the Santa Ynez Mountains.

I live just on the other side of those mountains. And so it's all to say that the whole, uh, the geography of Santa Barbara County is oriented East West. It's called a transverse valley, and it's incredibly rare. Uh, really anywhere, but anywhere on the West Coast of North and South America, Santa Barbara County, other than Alaska, has the longest East West coastline on all of North and South America at the Pacific coast.

It's all to say that once you get over the mountains. There's really nothing blocking that cold air from being funneled in along that mountain Valley into what's called the San Ynez Valley. If you go up the coast of California, you get [00:06:00] more frequently what's called the coast range, which runs north south.

That's what Napa has. That's what Sonoma has. That's what Paso Robles has. Um, and it goes all the way up. So the coast of Washington and, uh, but here we are not blocked by the coldest marine influences. So it's all to say as far South as we are, we're actually a cooler, colder growing region, the Napa six hours North.

And this is the farthest South in the Northern hemisphere. The Pinott Noir is grown. Pinott only thrives in really cool climates, Burgundy, France being the birthplace, Willamette Valley. Of Oregon, New Zealand, a few other places around the world, but this is by far the farthest South that it's grown. And Pinott is still my favorite varietal and, but there's also a tremendous diversity of plantings here.

There's like 75 or 80 different varietals that are planted in Santa Barbara County, making it probably the most diverse wine growing region on the planet because we have so many [00:07:00] microclimates because of the strange geography that we have.

Andrew Camp: For sure. No. And I think some of us are familiar with Pinott and it's from Santa Barbara area from, from the great movie sideways and Paul Giamatti, you know, and his little monologue about, about the beauty of Pinot grapes, you know.

Adam McHugh: Right.

Andrew Camp: And that,

Adam McHugh: that, that movie, uh, it's that movie was, was set in the San Ynez valley and filmed in the San Ynez Valley. And, uh, the impact it made on this Valley, especially for Pinot Noir sales from what's called the Santa Rita Hills, which is the Western most part of the San Ynez Valley. It was absolutely remarkable what that movie did, uh, for sales of Pinot, not only here, but around the world for the next like few years, but tourism, I think quadrupled over the next five years.

In the same as Valley, because of that little independent Fox searchlight movie. So it's a pretty, they call it the sideways effect, the impact that it made on this Valley. And we still feel that people still come up [00:08:00] here or, or, you know, from around the world still come to do what's called the sideways tour.

You know, 20 years later, they're still talking about that movie here.

Andrew Camp: That's crazy. Yeah, no. And it had the adverse effect on, I think Merlot, um, for people, but hopefully I think some people are saying Merlot is coming back. And so. Um, yeah.

Adam McHugh: They call it the sideways curse. Yeah. For Merlot, there's a really kind of surprising, hilarious line about Merlot in that movie.

And, uh, I, I believe Merlot sales went down 2% the next, uh, several years, but even more so. It's, it's reputation crashed for about 10 years after the movie Sideways came up.

Andrew Camp: So, the funny things that a movie can do for, for a wine industry that's not always true. . Yeah. Yeah. Uh, 'cause it's funny, like he drinks the last wine He drinks is a Merlot.

Based wine,

Adam McHugh: right?

Andrew Camp: Uh, and Chateau

Adam McHugh: Cheval Blanc is actually it's Merlot and Cab Franc, which are the two varietals in the movie that he denigrates. So, uh, you can tell there was kind of something more personal [00:09:00] that was happening for him. And so one of the chapters in my book is called the sideways effect.

And I, I give my own interpretation of that movie, uh, in there.

Andrew Camp: But speaking of your book, you know, your book is all about wine and how wine brought you back from the dead. And so can you. You know, without giving too much away, cause it's a great book that I highly recommend my wife and I both really enjoyed it.

Um, what, what was it about wine that really rescued you and saved you from burnout from ministry?

Adam McHugh: Right. I mean, part of it is I'm just having fun. I was really excited when I came up with that subtitle, but it's, it's, it's referencing, The fact that I used to work in hospice, you know, like for 10 years, my work down in the LA area, especially the Pasadena area was to sit at the deathbeds of patient after patient, whether in their homes or in a skilled nursing facilities.

That was the work that I did listening and helping people grieve being with families that were, that were [00:10:00] already starting to grieve before their family member had passed away. And so that was my work. And, uh, It was a very meaningful work. It was very sacred work in a lot of ways, but it was also just what I would call a slow leak on my soul.

It wasn't urgent work. I wasn't working as a chaplain in an ER or a more urgent setting. And so what was called compassion fatigue would really sneak up on me. I would be feeling fine for weeks at a time. And all of a sudden I would wake up and not be able to get out of bed and just feel crushed by, by the heaviness of what I was doing.

And, uh, and so just sneak up on you. Like that. And like, I think I said at the beginning of the, of the podcast that the San Ynez Valley was my refuge during those times. I mean, I was also going to plenty of therapy as well. I don't want to give the impression that drinking was my refuge, but, uh, this, this place, even more than the wine that I was tasting here, uh, Was actually, uh, sort of a [00:11:00] lifeline for me, the open skies, the, the, you know, the vine scapes, the seascapes and all of it here, and just the lack of urgency that people seem to feel who were locals here.

And it really became kind of a healing place for me. And so that was the start of a sort of how wine brought me back from the dead. But I did 11 years ago. Um, This is, you know, this is all in the book. I promise you, you're going to learn more than you ever wanted to know about me. But 11 years ago, I made a huge life and career pivot.

Um, lost my job with hospice. Cause honestly, I just really couldn't do it anymore. I was just so burnt out. So overpowered by compassion fatigue. And moved up to the San Andes Valley, took a risk, changed my whole life and, uh, got into the wine industry and started from the very bottom and built my way up from there.

But these last 11 years in a lot of ways have really been a process of healing for me. Um, and so, yeah, that's only part of the [00:12:00] story.

Andrew Camp: Well, cause a large part of, you know, the wine story for you, um, starts in the Cote d'Aron region, you know, where you're, you're visiting the region in touring and you finally get to shut off to pop region and.

Um, I can never say that word right. Um, but you know, you talk about just the importance of place there and how. There was no show. It was just families and you sitting down with families and enjoying. This generational sense of place, like, well, it sounds idyllic, but we also realize wine is hard work, but what, what resonated with you so much about that region?

Adam McHugh: Yeah, I took that, that trip. This is now about 15 years ago, 14 years ago. And, uh, to France for two weeks, which is still the only time I've ever been to Europe and it was life changing to say the least. It sounds a little cliche, but it's what what put me on a path towards moving into the wine industry and moving to wine [00:13:00] country.

We spent a week in Paris, just a day. In the Champagne region, just a couple hours outside of Paris, but that got a whole chapter in my book as well called the train to Champagne. And then a week in the south of France, we were, we were based in Avignon, which is this really cool, historic walled city where if you, Where I'd forgotten it for my years of church history, that there was actually about a 70 year period where the papacy had been relocated from Rome to Avignon in the south of France, when there was a series of French popes and a French king that was pretty much pulling their puppet strings there for a while named Philip and and and so.

It was, it wasn't just the wine. It wasn't just the place. It was the intersection of all of it. I think that was revelatory to me. I'm a total history dork. I have been my whole life, but even more so since I got into the world of wine. And so to be drinking my favorite beverage, eating this incredible farm to [00:14:00] table, simple food, but absolutely delicious, fresh fruit food in the South of France.

And then seeing like the history of the church In particular, the Catholic Church, um, you know, I'm not Catholic, but find that really meaningful, uh, to see that all coming together and forming this culture and to see how wine was embedded in a much larger culture and tradition was Very, very meaningful for me and inspiring and what ultimately led me to go into the world of wine.

Andrew Camp: And it's in this trip that the phrase blood from a stone comes up where, you know, you're in this, you're in the Chateauneuf du Pape region and it's rocky, boulder soil, it's not even rocky, it's boulder soil. And, you know, your tour guide mentions it's, you know, making wine is like squeezing blood from a stone.

And exactly. That becomes like a, almost. For lack of a better word, it becomes almost a dry bone, Ezekiel dry bones metaphor for you, if I'm reading, you know, like, you know, [00:15:00] into that a little bit, but it seems like that phrase brought life to you in ways that Many of us can't understand, but could you give us a glimpse?

Adam McHugh: Right. I mean, yeah, I, it took me a few years to find the right language to put to it. It was more one of those experiences that's just ineffable at first. Uh, it just, it's something that, you know, So we're in Chateau Neuf du Pape, which means new, new Chateau or new house of the Pope. And, uh, it's really the crown jewel of wines in the South of France.

Big blockbuster granaches and Syrah blends. And, uh, but what's unique about what's called the terroir, the place there, the vines is that the, the, the vines are coming out of what are essentially like what look like, um, um, The French word for it is galets, but they look like crepes. They're like these big round rocks.

And I didn't know much about wine at the time. I didn't know much about [00:16:00] how to, you know, farming and growing and all of that. But these little trees, these little vines come out of. Just a big pile of rocks. And I didn't understand that there was sort of clay soil. There was actually something holding it down underneath the rocks, but it just looked like trees going out of rocks.

So I said, how in the world can you grow anything out of this soil? And this tour, I was on a wine tour and this wine tour guy kind of winked at me and he paused and he said, that's why the local expression here is making wine is like squeezing blood from a stone. And it just hit me with this. One of those things you don't even have the words for it took me a long time to find the words for it.

One of the first things I remember thinking was I'm going to write a book by that title. People don't believe me when I say that, but that was probably the first like conscious thought I had after hearing that phrase, I'm going to write a book called blood from a stone. And I did like 12 years later.

And, um, but. it, yeah, it hit me with such an, it was such a force that I didn't have the words [00:17:00] for it. And then over time I've slowly come to realize that there was almost kind of a resurrection for me that happened. I was, I was reeling from my time in hospice. I was on a hiatus from hospice at the time I did end up going back to hospice for a while after that.

But there was, there was almost something that breathed new life in me for that. And that led me on a path to, to something new, uh, took me, uh, yeah, to a new place and a new, a new world.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. So then let's, this wine world, you know, I, I, I love your book, The Listening Life. It's been a great resource for me and used it throughout my time in ministry of training people to listen.

But I think there's a great correlation of what you write in The Listening Life as well as your journey with wine. Um, do you see this, I'm guessing you see the same correlation as, you know, sitting with people and slowing down to taste wine and listening are both one in the same act in some ways. Yes.

Absolutely.

Adam McHugh: I would say so. To be honest, I really have, you [00:18:00] know, The Listening Life is a super meaningful book for me, but I didn't use it sort of as an analogy for going into the world of wine. Like, I really wanted to immerse myself into the world of wine, um, kind of as it is, um, and not be one of those, like, Pastors or former pastors who kind of treat everything like an analogy, you know, um, and so like everything that I've done, what's true about all of my works is that they're all just involved.

Slowness. Like, that's just my way of being in the world. And I think that's part of what drew me into wine was the slowness of it all. You make wine just once a year, you kind of now, like, I feel like around here, when you live in wine country, you, you sort of set your watches or your calendars, not by the normal sequence of months, but by the growing cycle, you know, bud break and, and flowering and duration and harvest.

And [00:19:00] that feels like kind of how you mark your time, but there's a decided slowness to life. Here. And also the best form of, of wine tasting of, of tasting in general is something that, that is slow. That is where you stop and you pay attention where you're attentive to what's, you know, you're smelling to what's on the palate, what's in the glass in terms of textures and colors and the nuances of flavor and aromatics and, and how it, you know, uh, kind of, Impacts your palate.

And so, you know, listening in my previous work is a slow exercise. My first book is about introversion and sort of how the slowness with which I really address everything in my life. And I think wine very much fits into that as well.

Andrew Camp: No, for sure. Yeah. There is, you know, something slow about wine and that you even mentioned that wine was meant to be discovered, you know, it was an accidental joy, I think.

Um, You know, and so what, what is it about the [00:20:00] slowness of wine that just is so beautiful?

Adam McHugh: That's such a hard question for me to answer because I'm just so deep in that world now. It's, um, One of the things that people who are, you know, not into wine, um, like don't quite get, is that it's a whole world. It's not just a beverage and it's not reduced to ethanol, to the ethyl alcohol that, uh, people just kind of view wine as like, oh, it's a form of alcohol.

But when you're in this world here, there's this entire community of people. That are kind of passionate about it that have many of whom have changed their lives like I did in order to be here, you know, there's sort of an obsessiveness for some people about it and not about the alcohol impact, but.

About this world of farming, you know, it's a farming community. It's I'm always happy to be reminded every day that [00:21:00] that wine, you know, starts as farming. It starts in the soil. And so you have people that are very passionate about the sort of agriculture that is that is being done. Building soil health that is, is for the good of the planet.

We have so many different farmers here, these small independent farmers, so different from kind of the big conventional farmers that they really care about regenerative agriculture. They care about whatever they're taking out of the soil. They want to put back into the soil that they want to. Leave this place better for their children and for their grandchildren.

And they care about climate change and about capturing carbon out of the air through cover crops and just overall health of this ecosystem here. And so it's so much more than, than just a beverage. But then when you do get into the beverage aspect of it, you know, wine is something to be sipped. It's something to be savored.

It's not something to be pounded. And, uh, just those moments of, of kind of. Shutting out [00:22:00] the world for just a little while and being attentive to what's in your glass and what's on your palate. There's really kind of a mindfulness in many ways that can happen to it. And there's even kind of a movement nowadays is a lot of people are cutting back on drinking alcohol.

Which is, which is a good thing. And, but there's kind of this idea of mindful drinking where you're actually just kind of really paying attention to how, to not only, you know, how the wine is affecting you or the beverage is affecting you in your glass, but, but, but how it's hitting your palate and you're learning to be attentive and to notice the small things, which has been a theme in my life for, you know, as long as I can remember.

Andrew Camp: You know, and it does, yeah. Soil getting our hands dirty, you know, and that, um, you know, and you even talk about how the monks. You know, they didn't just pray. They, they went out and got their hands dirty. And, um, you know, and it seems to be such a different way of life than maybe we associate pastors or ministry with nowadays.

And [00:23:00] so how has getting your hands dirty sort of helped, you know, give new life to you?

Adam McHugh: Yeah, that was essential for me and, um, yeah, the monastic community. So after the fall of the Roman Empire in the 5th century, uh, the great vineyards of Europe were very much cultivated by Benedictine and Cistercian monks.

And it was particularly the Cistercians, led by Bernard of Clairvaux, who got serious about it. kind of noticing the growing patterns of particular vines, noticing what fruit ripened, what fruit didn't ripen, noticing what made, what parts of the slope made the best wines. And they didn't always know why, but they paid attention.

It's all of it. And it even became this, this spiritual practice for them. So their life wasn't only about prayer and study, but it was about manual labor. And they advanced, uh, the [00:24:00] viticulture and winemaking incredible ways throughout the middle ages. And for me, I think what was so important in terms of growth, in terms of my own transformation was kind of coming out of my head, coming out of the ivory tower.

I've always been someone that's, that's lived there and even kind of took it as a compliment when people say he's in an ivory tower. And, but what felt for me, what felt really important to me was just. Experiencing myself as, as embodied as a physical being and being around people who aren't sitting around thinking about big ideas, which took some adjustment sometimes frustrates me.

But I think that's partly my role here in the wine industry is just kind of ask the big why questions, but to get my hands dirty to experience myself as embodied, felt like a real kind of coming into myself. Uh, getting to know myself more and kind of respecting, [00:25:00] uh, the fact that there's a lot more to me than just the ideas that float in my head.

And then a part of that is just getting in touch with my senses, learning to appreciate smells, sights and sounds. And, and, uh, it feels like I'm becoming more and more human. the longer I live in this world where everyone has their hands kind of plunged into the dirt or else covered in what looks like blood during winemaking when they have all the grape skins, you know, in their hands.

Andrew Camp: It's so interesting that like how much of ministry, you know, like we talk about ministry being we're in the depths of people's souls, which we are, and we're experiencing great moments with them. But it takes us at times, you know, I know for myself away from. living, you know, where you don't pay attention, um, all the time to the physicality around you, or you don't get in touch with who you are as a person.

And so, um, [00:26:00] I think, yeah, like, I think for Christians, we need, or, you know, any person of faith, we need those moments where we are embodied people and where we are paying attention to. To everything around us and situated. And, um, cause another aspect of wine you talk about is, is terroir, which is a weird term within the wine world.

But you, you've sort of hit on it that, you know, like, as you've come, you know, brought back to life with wine, like the sense of place has become an important part and so what is. What is terroir and how has terroir then integrated into your embodied living?

Adam McHugh: Yeah, I mean, that's a conversation that can be about 17 different podcast interviews, but so it's a French term terroir is generally how it's pronounced in English.

The French say terroir, but, um, Terroir actually, what first fascinated me was not the idea, but the sort of background of it. It really comes from [00:27:00] ancient Celtic spirituality, and it really draws from like the Gauls in France who were Celts before the, before Caesar invaded and possessed it. At least the South of France in the first century BC.

But, uh, the idea is essentially that there are particular places on earth that are more special or more spiritual than other places. It kind of gets at the idea of a, of a thin place. If you've ever heard that idea, the notion that there are places where the sort of the veil between heaven and earth is, is.

Thinner and that there is great revelation in those places. So that's actually the background of it, though. Most people in the wine industry, I don't think know that, but in terms of modern wine understanding, it's very French term. It's a very elitist French term. It's, it's historically been a French way of saying our wines will always be better than yours.

And, um, it, but it's, it's that there's something magical about these particular places, the [00:28:00] interaction with the particular kinds of soil, the particular climate, the particular place on earth that, that shapes that wine, that wine is an expression of the place. And that the varietals, Pinott Noir, Syrah, Cabernet, that sort of thing are actually secondary.

To the place, there's sort of the paint that paints the masterpiece, but the, the object is the, uh, is the, is the location, especially with like Pinot Noir and Riesling, what are called transparent varietals that show the terroir of a particular spot even more, uh, kind of accurately. That's where people get really, uh.

excited about that. But it essentially is the habitat of a grapevine, kind of all of the different growing conditions that together in sort of this like alchemist way create the magic that that ends up in your, in your glass one day.

Andrew Camp: What is terrior then done to you, you know, and how is, who are you now because of terrior?

[00:29:00] And

Adam McHugh: then that was my question, right, was, okay, I love this idea that, that The place shapes, the fruit, the place shapes, the wine that comes from that fruit. And so then my question was, well, how, you know, is there a way that we can see this as place shaping human beings? Is there a way that I can see how place shapes me?

And I don't know if I have too many, like, specific Specific answers to that, but I do know that getting my hands dirty, that experiencing all the different layers of a place, not just the ideas that flow through the air, but getting to know the soils and getting to understand more and more like farming and all the different kind of climactic conditions that go into that.

Um, have changed me, they've humbled me, they've slowed me down and they've helped me to like this, this particular, the St. Louis Valley where I live, like I feel more grounded here, more [00:30:00] connected, excuse me, to this community than I ever have at any other point in my life. And I think a lot of that is because so many of us are talking about.

The dirt and not just the big ideas in the sky here, but, um, I do think a big part of it living kind of in the country. Like I do, I've never lived in small town rural before is just learning to embrace the slowness of it all. Uh, like I said, we kind of time our clocks, our calendars by the growing season here, which is slow, slow developing takes a year to get there.

And, um, I think that's been a big part of that feeling of connection for me.

Andrew Camp: That's awesome. Um, and then with wine, I was reminded I was, I have recorded a podcast with Gisela Kreiglinger. I don't know. Um, I'm assuming you guys know of each other and hopefully, yeah. Um, but she talks, she talked about her in her podcast, this idea of holy intoxication, you know, that as she grew up on a vineyard, [00:31:00] In Germany, and that she saw that when people drink wine, there, you know, there was something that happened that people relaxed, people shared more, people just, you know, took a deep breath and, you know, slow down.

And so have you, as you've done, you know, tour guides, and as you're immersed in yourself and your wine, do you sort of see something similar happening with wine, where it just helps not dull the passions, but actually maybe enliven it?

Adam McHugh: Yeah, I think, I do think you have to be careful with language, like intoxication, to be honest, I wouldn't use that phrase though.

I know that she's, she's pulling that out of the scriptures in terms of being intoxicated by the spirit. That is not a language I would use. But, um, I, what I think is what I love about wine is that when there's, you know, a good bottle of wine at the table, people linger. It makes people linger. At the table, and it's in that linger that many of the best conversations happen, not necessarily the most profound conversations, but the [00:32:00] conversations where people are a little bit more relaxed, they're not in a hurry to go anywhere, and that's when it feels like some of the best things can can come out.

Of that, or people, even if it's not conversation, it's people just kind of learning to be together to linger together. And those connections that can happen that are kind of below the surface as well. And so I do think, you know, they're, they're like, And I'm talking about a glass or two of wine here, but there is a, there is a calming effect.

There's a relaxation. There's sort of a big exhale that happens when someone hands you a, you know, a good glass of wine at the end of a long work day. The part of that, that ritual that I think draws us together, but, um, I just think anytime I, you know, I know we talk about sacrament, we talk about, you know, the idea of, of wine and bread and, um, as, as experiencing union with God.

And I do think there's something special about, you know, being together as a, as a body of [00:33:00] faith and celebrating that in a very specific ritualistic way. But I also think every time people sit down at a table with good fresh food, with good drinkable wine, and that they linger at the table, that, that, that God isn't far away from that situation.

Andrew Camp: No, for sure. And that's what Has drawn me into this world of food and wine is that something magical does happen, you know with food and wine and That lingering that enjoyment that exhale You know is is beautiful and it doesn't have to be a 300 bottle of wine, you know And it doesn't have to be steak and it you know, I think it's it's that communion Um, that does occur, you know, but there is also then the fear people have not only, or maybe it's the hesitation that, you know, wine is reserved for, for snobs or, you know, to really know, you know, and so what advice, you know, for people who like wine and [00:34:00] want to just notice more, how, what could people do to, to maybe just dive a little deeper?

Yeah. Into the world.

Adam McHugh: Yeah. I mean, what, one of the great lessons I learned in the South of France was just how many just sort of decent drinkable table wines there were in that part of the world that costs about eight. They'll bring it to you in a carafe. It's often made by the same person that owns the restaurant from their own backyard vines that have been there for generations and you know, it'd be eight euros a carafe.

And they were just incredibly drinkable and easy and went with everything on the menu. And that was transformative for me because I think before that, in a lot of ways, I thought of, you know, wine as being somewhat inaccessible. And in California, let's not kid ourselves. These are some, these are expensive wines.

Wines around here start at 30, but make their way up to a hundred plus, like very [00:35:00] quickly. And that's Santa Barbara County that's Napa. They started about 150. And, uh, and so it does feel like some of the wines in California are less accessible than, uh, some of the great wines of Europe, which have been in the family for generations.

So land costs are a lot cheaper. And so I would, I would say, I mean, what I always say is find a good wine shop. Don't go to the grocery store, find a good local wine shop. with somebody who knows their business, go in there and say, here's my budget. What, you know, what can I get? That's going to be good and drinkable and approachable sort of within this range.

And then you, you build a relationship with the proprietor of that kind of one shot for the people that work there. And, you know, then they start thinking about you and. And kind of figuring out what, uh, what you'd like and what's going to work for you. And so I, I always, and it's almost always European wine is a great place to start from the South of France, from Northwestern Spain, um, from various [00:36:00] parts of Italy that are like, you can get a, Really good bottle of wine for anywhere between 15 and 25 that are not going to, you know, blow you away, but they're just good drinkable wines.

And they, you know, I think you're, you're diving into an ancient pleasure there, especially with some of those wine regions that have been there since the middle ages. And I'd like to feel that kind of connection with history that's there.

Andrew Camp: No, for sure. Yeah, no, there are some great wines available and I've always veered towards Spain.

Just, you know, like you said, they've been affordable, um, really nice wines. Yeah. Um, and, you know, my grandpa loves Spanish wines, and so he turned me on, you know, and so there's that history there, uh, for me with Spain. Um, but, um, and so as, as you've reflected on this journey, you know, for yourself, what does faith look like then for you today?

And how is it different than maybe 15 years ago?

Adam McHugh: Yeah, it's really [00:37:00] just, it's a lot, my faith is much simpler than it used to be. I used to be someone that was very involved in theological conversations and, uh, debates, that sort of thing. And when I, when I left ministry, when I moved into the wine industry, I pretty much just exempted myself from the internet.

I just pretty much said, you know what, guys, this has been fun. We've had a great time on Twitter. But I think I'm done with this. And I wanted to find my community, you know, in my neighbors and in the people right around me, which feels in some ways, very old fashioned, but also just something that was true to me.

And so my faith is just, it's become more open handed, but it's also just become a lot. Simpler for me, you know, the idea that that God came near is sort of a, a focal point for me, or I still use the prayer that I used in, uh, the listening life. Uh, what I [00:38:00] call the Samuel Prayer, speak, Lord, your servant is listening.

And the, those are kind of the things that I hold onto, uh, throughout, uh, my days. But, um, I'm just, I'm not someone I was very. It took a while. The, the, the sh the identity shift was a much harder transition than I thought out of being a pastor, out of being an ordained minister and kind of letting go of that leadership role was much harder than I thought.

Cause I trained as you know, anyone who's in professional ministry knows how much you train for that, how much education, how many tests you take, how many internships you do, at least the, you know, the presbyterian church that I was a part of. And, uh, just how much goes into that, but almost how much of your identity is intertwined with that.

But once I was able after a couple of years to finally let go of the role of minister, I really breathe a big sigh of relief. And so, but then when you're dealing with that, It's so [00:39:00] challenging that sometimes I felt like, am I losing my faith in this process? Because you express your faith in such a public way and to let go of that feels like a real transition.

But ultimately what happened was I started getting more embodied in my spirituality. I started experiencing God less kind of as a, you know, reaching for the skies and more, you know, plunging my hands into the dirt, which is very biblical. And, uh, it's a, it's a simpler faith, but I think it's a faith that, that has, um, a lot of endurance to it.

It's a quiet faith. And, uh, I feel more at home with that faith than I ever did playing that public role.

Andrew Camp: Gotcha. It's, you know, as someone who has, you know, eight months transitioning out of ministry, you know, I, in some ways it's good to hear that it took a couple years for you to let go because You know, it's, there's still part of me that wants to hold on, you know, and I, like, I don't even know what faith looks like after having it [00:40:00] been so it's a public faith, you know, and so, um, what you just said really resonated with me.

So, so thank you. Yeah.

Adam McHugh: Yeah. It's a conversation we should, that people should have more because there are a lot of sort of former ministers out there that are kind of out in the wilderness nowadays. And um, it's a, it's a good conversation to have to say, you know, you're not necessarily losing your faith here and people get very excited about, you know, sort of deconstruction.

of faith, and I didn't come from some really toxic background in faith, and so I didn't, I didn't have to let go of a sort of a lot of bad theology. I think I just had to let go of that, that, that idea of being in charge or that, that role that I play, that kind of formal public role.

Andrew Camp: Okay, you know, and so one other question I'd like to ask, um, or one question I do like to ask all of the guests, and I know you're not in ministry role right now, but as you reflect on the [00:41:00] church, you know, and faith, like, what is the story you want the church to tell in this, in this Uh,

Adam McHugh: the first word that comes to mind is belonging. I think what I'm seeing, I mean, the last few years, um, have been a little bit of a challenge. I don't know if you've noticed societally, it's been a little challenging out there, but, um, It's been, one of the things that's really interesting to me right now is, you know, I try to stay away from the news for the most part, but there are definitely more headlines about people leaving the church these days.

And I remember in the past, or maybe that's where the algorithms are taking me. But what's interesting now is that there are actually people not from church backgrounds or religious backgrounds that are actually starting to lament that. A little bit, the idea that people are leaving faith communities, which is fascinating [00:42:00] to me, because I feel like 10 years ago, a lot of those same voices would have been celebrating that people are leaving churches.

Uh, and now there are people are starting to see what role, uh, sort of religious communities. Clay in terms of people finding belonging in terms of them being freed from, from loneliness and isolation, all things, which, which feel very overpowering right now in our culture. And, um, I think the idea of belonging, of being welcome here as you are, uh, feels really significant to me.

And, uh, you know, and I, I, I, Admittedly been a little bit peripheral to religious communities for the last few years, but I can tell even in myself, I'm, I'm, I'm feeling a little bit more of a draw to find that, that level of connection. Again, the wine for me has been about connection and I've found that in the world of wine.

And I would like to find that again, sort of in. in a church world, but I [00:43:00] can see how all of these last few years of isolation and division, um, you know, have, have hurt us not only as a church, but, but as a society as a whole. And I really, really want for people to find belonging and connection, um, in faith communities.

Andrew Camp: Thank you. Um, and then as we, before we end a few questions in rapid fire, some fun questions just to change, you know, um, the tone a little bit. So they're just some fun food questions. So what's one food you refuse to eat?

Adam McHugh: I hate bananas. Okay. I don't like the way they look. I don't like the way they smell.

I don't like the texture. I hate bananas.

Andrew Camp: Oh, wow. Okay. That's a first. I know that's fair. And even banana candy. Are you like, is that even worse?

Adam McHugh: Won't do it. Won't do it.

Andrew Camp: No, I understand. Banana candy is the worst to me just because it feels so

Adam McHugh: fake. I don't think I've ever even had banana candy, but that sounds terrible.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. [00:44:00] Okay. Gotcha. So then on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Adam McHugh: I'm really smitten with this Peruvian dish called Lomo Saltado. You ever heard of that? Yep. It just means like salted meat. Yeah. It's this bizarre kind of peasant dish from Peru. That's like, you know, usually not very good meat that you marinate. So it gets really tender and it's mixed together with various vegetables and sort of like chili paste, but it has French fries in it.

And then it's served over a bed of rice and it's Absolutely delicious. And it's really good with a local garnache around here. Cause our garnache like kind of fruit forward and a little bit lusher, a slight juiciness. So that sweetness offsets the spice of the, of the chili paste. So yeah, Lomo Saltado is my favorite dish right now.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. Is there a good place in your area to get?

Adam McHugh: [00:45:00] No, I just make it at home.

There's nothing like that around here. But I've learned how to make it at home pretty good.

Andrew Camp: No, and that Peruvian food was high, from, if I remember correctly, it was influenced by Chinese culture. And so that's where you get sort of the stir fry of the beef.

Um, you know, but.

Adam McHugh: That's news to me. I didn't, I didn't know that, but that, that makes sense. Because it is served like over a bed of rice and it does have like that stir fry feel to it.

Andrew Camp: And then finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals as if, as in like, if you knew you had one last meal to enjoy, what would it be?

And so if Adam had one last meal to enjoy. Um, what would it be?

Adam McHugh: Just very classic, like steak up, what Puebra, I don't know how that's pronounced, but peppercorn steak with a little like cognac sauce, uh, New York cut, big New York cut that, uh, would definitely be at the heart of it. That's been pretty much my favorite dish since I was [00:46:00] about 10 years old.

So that would be a start. And then some form of potato would be in there too.

Andrew Camp: Okay. And what wine would you be pouring?

Adam McHugh: That's probably when I break out like a 10 year old Chateau Neuf du Pape. My favorite, my most important wine in my life has been Chateau de Beaucastel, which is one of the very best estates in Chateau Neuf du Pape.

That's what I, what we had on the day I proposed to my wife a few years ago. And so Beaucastel for sure. If I, if you could find like a 2010, that would be ideal.

Andrew Camp: Okay. Awesome. Well, Adam, thank you so much for this time. Thank you for, you know, just your journey and sharing a little bit with us and helping all of us understand wine and the beauty of wine.

If people want to get in touch with you or learn more about what you're doing, is there a place that they can find you?

Adam McHugh: I don't have a website anymore. Uh, you can, you're more than welcome to email me at adammchugh at gmail. com. I'm on Instagram, adammchugh [00:47:00] wine. And, uh, but if you want to, the best way to learn, you know, about all of the, a lot of wine, a lot of my story, a lot of the transition from ministry to wine is in my book, Blood from a Stone, which you can find anywhere you would expect.

Andrew Camp: Yep. No, and it's a great book. It's a great story and highly recommend it. Um, it is published by inner varsity press. And so, um, yeah, it's where every books, uh, wherever you buy your books, please buy it, read it. Um, you know, and yeah, learn about Adam. So thanks again for joining us on this episode of the biggest table where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food until next time.

Bye.