The Biggest Table

Episode 32 (Liz Charlotte Grant)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew camp. And in this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.

And today I'm thrilled to be joined by Liz Charlotte Grant. Liz is an award winning nonfiction writer who writes the substack, the empathy list, and whose first book Knock at the Sky: Seeking God in Genesis after Losing Faith in the Bible just released on January 7th. She lives in Colorado with her husband, two kids, and nine hens.

So thanks for joining me today, Liz. It's great to connect and looking forward to this conversation.

Liz Charlotte Grant: Thanks for having me. Food is one of my passions, so I'm just delighted to get to talk to you about it.

Andrew Camp: No, I love it. And I think it factors into Genesis a lot, um, really enjoyed your book and found it an intriguing examination of sort of deconstruction and refinding faith after the evangelical world.

Um, but I want to start here just because you write in your book that writing [00:01:00] while we think of it as an isolated activity is never. something we do in isolation, but rather it's a community that guides this process. And so I'm curious, like what, who was your community, both maybe authors that you interacted with, but also then real life flesh people who, who upheld you and supported you through this whole process?

Liz Charlotte Grant: So my, my community starts with my husband. So we've been married for 14 years. Um, I forget what anniversary that is. I don't know. Paper maybe feels right for a year. I released a book.

Um, he is a visual artist. And one of the things that has been so essential to our kind of communal experience as a married couple has been sharing this artistic sort of obsession, uh, inclination, compulsion. Um, so he, and actually I was just telling him [00:02:00] this, I, you know, there was a point at which in my writing career, I almost quit writing.

Um, and the reason I did not is because of his example of just persistence. Like he just is one of the most disciplined, consistent artists I know. He's just always involved in kind of his own practice. And so, um, I think for me, watching him do a really good job continuing to show up kind of regardless what happens, regardless how the work is received, regardless whether he shows it, he does a really great job just Showing up to his studio, um, and we actually have two studio spaces for him.

He's, he's lucky. He's got a garage and like a separate space in a coffee shop that we rent for him. It's like in the roastery. Um, but he just, you know, over years has just continued to show up. And I think for me, um, having that example. And then also, you know, [00:03:00] I joke that he's my life coach because I'll also, you know, come to him and make him tell me what to do.

Um, which he doesn't. Like tell me what to do because it doesn't go well. No, um, but I, I do take his advice and kind of, it helps me to think through things with him. So he is number one, the person who kind of got me through book writing. We would go on walks together over lunchtimes, like right after lunch, we would go out and I would just talk his ear off about everything I was learning.

I'm an extrovert. He's an introvert. It's. And, um, he would just walk with me and kind of reflect back and anyway, grateful for him. Yeah. I know such a gift. Um, I also have a lot of writer friends who just, you know, Are just great friends, first and foremost, and then kind of beyond that, we were able to kind of talk through the admin and publishing [00:04:00] side, the business side of writing, which is its own kind of beast, I'm sure.

And so I'm a fabulous agent, a fabulous agency. I work with, um. Who helped like negotiate the deal for this book, but then also, um, great friends with my editor, Lisa Cockrell, great friends with like some of the folks you've had on. I know you've had Lori Wilbert on. She's a friend of mine, real good friends with KJ Ramsey in real life.

She's in Colorado and we became friends because we ended up at the same. Anglican church together for a while. Um, Sarah Southern's another deal, dear friend. And actually, Andrew, you might like to talk to her. This is kind of a side note, but she's like travel and food is her deal. Oh, wow. So I got, I got to connect you with her, but anyway, I, I just.

Have been very lucky to have generous and genuine relationships with many writer friends. I mean, writers groups, [00:05:00] red bud writers guild. I just, I it's, it's a gift. I mean, I, I consider it just another way to make friends. Um, I was like, Class president, super extrovert. So I have like 15 circles of friends that I, I get to enjoy.

And then, um, various church communities I've been a part of every year. I'm currently in a PC USA church. Okay. Um, but I've been a part of a lot of different church communities every year and have many friends locally through that. And so I just feel so, um, Delighted at one of my friends, her name is Lisa, and she herself is a writer and she and other friend of mine, Tessa were early readers of this book and at the time, this book that I wrote is a, it's basically braided essays.

So it's a lot of kind of different, um. Fragments of stories and exegesis all kind of mashed up together to kind of see what meaning emerges from [00:06:00] them being all close up and personal. And when these early readers got copies of early chapters, they were like, we can't make sense of what you're trying to say here.

They're like, we're probably just dumb. And I'm like, no, no. Yeah. They're like, we just don't get it. And so they kind of convinced me. Them and my agent to kind of make the writing more personal to insert myself a little bit more into the text as like an eye character. Um, and that was a big deal for just kind of making it make sense.

So anyway, this may or may not be what you had in mind for this answer, but I just feel so grateful to have. A lot of real and genuine relationships in my life where I can make them read my words or make them tell me the truth about what they actually thought about it. For sure. Yeah. Um, and, and that's just a really rare and, um, sweet.

that I have in my life. [00:07:00]

Andrew Camp: Right. Well, cause writing anything you do in the arts from, you know, cooking to writing, you know, to your husband's artwork, like it's very vulnerable to put yourself out there. And so like, it's scary. Like, I don't, you know, I like to write, but I don't like other people to read it.

Or I don't, when I was a chef, I don't like to watch other people eat my food because it's like, You know, I want to say, I don't care about what they think, because if I feel like I did a good job, like what they think may not matter, but it does, um, you know, and so it's, you know, this production of quality art is a vulnerable thing, and to have a community that will support you, encourage you, give you honest, helpful feedback, um, is just so important, um, for me.

In this process.

Liz Charlotte Grant: It's huge. Yeah. I'm curious for you, if you don't mind me asking, I'm curious about like, do you have experiences where you had to like watch people eat your food in front of you beyond like family members, you know, and they're, they're quick [00:08:00] to make their judgments,

Andrew Camp: right?

Liz Charlotte Grant: I know.

Andrew Camp: Um, like I've done a few catering things, you know, and so that's.

Always weird, you know, especially if you're in a home or doing, you know, someplace closed. Um, but in the restaurant we had a closed, you know, we didn't have an open kitchen, so you couldn't see, you know, and then we can also curse the customers who ordered the well done steak and then complained, you know, complained that it wasn't, you know, that it was dry or something.

Yeah. Or like, well, it's well done. Yeah. Um, so yeah. I, Um, yeah. And even if I was doing like plated buffet, like after I was done, I would like want to retreat to the kitchen just because you're like, Nope, I'm done. Like I don't need to be out here anymore. So,

Liz Charlotte Grant: yeah. Did you have any like executive chef experiences like Karmie?

Andrew Camp: What do you mean? Sorry. I didn't quite understand.

Liz Charlotte Grant: Oh. Yeah. Did you have any like executive chef kind of horror stories where they're like trying food in front of [00:09:00] you?

Andrew Camp: Um, my biggest horror story is just being yelled at, you know, just being reamed up and down or like, um, I, I just started at a restaurant in LA and like, we were doing a wine dinner and I was plating like little quarter size slivers of apple, like with my hands, you know, and so you're just trying to put them on the plate and like, I'm shaking and trying to move as fast.

The executive chef just looks at me. He's like, stop shaking. And you're like,

Liz Charlotte Grant: Do you like that? Doesn't help, bud. Not

Andrew Camp: helpful.

Liz Charlotte Grant: Uh huh. Relatable.

Andrew Camp: Mm hmm. Yep. But it's all good. But then I also had chefs who would like, you know, re meet a new one at times, but then come back and say, Hey, here's where you messed up. Here's how we can help. Here's how, what we can do to fix it. And like the only one chef wants, and he's my mentor chef, he said, the only thing that separates me from you is I have more years of effing up.

Oh, Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's really

Liz Charlotte Grant: generous. Yeah,

Andrew Camp: right. Like you're like, okay, like that's part of this creative processes.

Liz Charlotte Grant: Mm hmm,

Andrew Camp: you know [00:10:00] and I'm sure it's the same with writing like

Liz Charlotte Grant: yeah, I just I was just talking about this actually with my daughter who is Creative herself. She likes to write but I'm working on a series of on publishing for my sub stack and she was looking over my shoulder and We were watching this kind of animated version of a famous Ira Glass quote, which is basically, I don't know if you've seen this, but he basically says, like, there is a gap when you start out making any, anything creative.

Right. You get into making art because you have good taste. And you start making art and you realize that there's a gap between what, you know, is good and what you can actually do when you begin. And so there's this element of, you just have to keep making work, keep making work, keep making work, keep doing it over and over and over and over.

And, um, there's another. Writer, he talks about throwing out the first million words you write, literally throwing it in the trash. [00:11:00] Like that's when you begin. Um, and I think that's true with any creative endeavor where you just kind of have to get the experience before you're making anything that's worth, you know, reading, eating, hearing, um, And so I, I very much relate to that.

I mean, I think I've been doing this now for 12 years, um, writing professionally, and I'm sure you've been cooking for that long, at least. Yeah. Yep. Um, I think for myself, I feel like, okay, I'm just starting to really kind of You know, in the past, say five years come into my own voice, my own style, things that I'm still really proud of that.

I wrote that I would be okay with people reading again for sure at this point. Um, but it just takes that time of effing up and figuring it out, you know, right?

Andrew Camp: Yeah, it's true. Yeah. And it's even this way with the podcast. [00:12:00] This podcast started a year ago and I'm still figuring it out and, you know, Finding my voice and how to, and, you know, bring myself into the conversation more and not just to be, you know, a guest conversation.

Um, but yeah, so yeah, it's a, wherever the creative process is, it's a, it's a long arduous journey. Um, Yeah, it really is. Yeah. And just want to encourage you listener, if you're on that creative process, keep Going like don't. It takes time. It takes, find your community, find those people that will help you continue to refine and find that voice so that you can be that gift to the world, um, that we need.

Liz Charlotte Grant: Yeah. Sometimes it just takes, it's like you need both the people who will. Encourage you. to just keep doing it, and the people who will tell you what's wrong with what you're doing. Yeah, exactly. Yep. And sometimes they need to be different people. Like, they

Andrew Camp: do. Yes.

Liz Charlotte Grant: Um, [00:13:00] but it's worth, it's worth doing anyway.

Andrew Camp: It is. Yeah, for sure. Um, and so to get back to your book, um, I'm curious, what led you to Genesis of all places? Because when we lose faith in, in the Bible, or we're seeking to find a new path forward in faith, most of us start with Jesus. Um, Genesis may, you know, the Old Testament doesn't rank high, you know, of where we start.

So why Genesis? Because there's a lot of patriarchy, there's

Liz Charlotte Grant: You

Andrew Camp: know, God seems capricious and at one point loving on humanity, but the next point destroying humanity, um, rape, incest, like you name it, it's there. And yet it's a mass. Yeah. And yet you find beauty and you find faith. So how, why,

Liz Charlotte Grant: um, those are my favorite questions.

How and why? So I, I'm, I [00:14:00] think one of the things that has been fascinating to me. is that so many Christians who are reframing faith, they might not start with Genesis, but Genesis is sort of at the back of their minds. It's like, well, if I'm thinking about faith differently, probably I'm thinking about the beginning of the world too.

Like what is cosmology? What do I make of, Why I'm here, you know, why, what, what role we have on this planet and kind of how our relationship to the planet, our relationship to ourselves, um, gender marriage. These are often things that are on the table immediately, as soon as you start kind of reframing faith in any, any way, um, whether you're going, okay, maybe I don't have a complimentary in marriage.

Maybe I have an egalitarian marriage where there's equity between the partners. Well, what does that mean? I guess I got to go back and figure that out again, right? So, so many of the [00:15:00] questions about faith tend to come back to these early chapters in Genesis, um, because our faith typically has been defined so narrowly.

Um, and in particular, these passages have been defined so narrowly. We have this just very limited view of what we should be like as Christians. So Jesus is certainly the main redefiner, I would say for any of us. But I think, um, for myself, you know, I actually, Ended up trying to, I wanted to write a book about the prophets and then became really obsessed with the idea of God's voice, you know, God speaks with no throat and the universe comes to be like, normally voices have containers, God has no container and yet we have this sound wave.

So how does the sound happen? So I started asking these questions because the voices of God is what animates the prophets, right? Yeah. And so I [00:16:00] started going backwards and just realized there were so many more questions to explore. And I really wanted to sort of encounter God freshly. Um, and what, what, what better way to do that than go back to these kind of early humans who are encountering God for the first time without any.

Background knowledge about God without any history, they're just kind of running into divinity in their normal lives, you know, um, and so whether you believe the Bible is historically true in every little detail or not, I think the fact is, like, this story is meant to kind of get us up close and personal with God, it's, it's about encounter.

Um, and recording these encounters. And so I was very curious, like, does it hit me different if I'm sort of surrendering to the story and just kind of approaching God as God appears here? [00:17:00] Um, I w I wanted to be surprised. I think I just was really hungry for that. Um, and I, it certainly surprised me.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Coin in. You know, this voice, this idea of this voice of God, like keeps appearing throughout your book and in some ways it, it bookends, you know, your book starts with this voice that calls out and beckons and makes, initiates, and then the last chapter is on Jacob and this God who invites this wrestling and this, you know, Um, yeah, um, this God who beckons forth.

And so like, God is always in your book, this one who makes first contact with us, which I thought was very beautiful and like, oh wait, this is a great way to bookend this. Like we have this God who initiates contact, but then also invites this wrestling, um, you know, and, and it's throughout there because all of these characters are wrestling with this.

Like you said, this, who is this God without any. tradition [00:18:00] associated with it. Um, and so what, what did surprise you about this god who, who speaks with no throat?

Liz Charlotte Grant: I

think I, I felt surprised at how much space there was for my questions in the book of Genesis. I think the traditional, let's say, white American evangelical view of the Bible says that the Bible is really easy to read. There's one reading, one interpretation, and we can all slot ourselves into it. Like we all fit here.

We can find Um, easily applicable relevance to ourselves from this text. Um, I knew that that was not the whole story in part because I, um, went to a university where I took a lot of theology classes. So I was aware, [00:19:00] okay, it's an ancient Near Eastern https: otter. ai

The authorship questions are more complicated. The historical questions are more complicated. Like, I knew all these things, you know, um, as well as the fact that, of course, it wasn't written in our language. Right. Um, so there's that. Yeah. Um, I think what really delighted me was finding so much space for so many.

other questions. So many big questions about, you know, who I am as a woman, you know, what bodies mean, like why we even have them, um, why God doesn't have one, what it means that we're part of this world. Like what, what is at the actual base of the universe? I think the question, or the answer to that question that I often heard was, Like evil, like at the base of humankind, like evil is what [00:20:00] runs the world.

And in fact, that's a very different picture. We, we receive a different picture from Genesis at the base of the world is generosity, it's communion, it is community. Um, It is love and free will and, and thought and intention, you know, um, it's silence. One of the, one of my favorite interpreters talks about how, um, at the beginning of the world, it's not so much that God spoke initially, it's that God created the silence in which God could speak.

So first there's chaos. Which, you know, waters in Hebrew culture represented chaos, the powers of chaos. Um, and so there's, you know, the spirit hovering over the waters, uh, and it's loud and it's chaotic and the spirit hovers and [00:21:00] creates silence. And then into that silence, that like intake of breath. God then speaks the universe into existence.

Um, so many of these things, I think, you know, the creative act, the sort of, uh, trying and trying again, there's some of these stories, um, in the Jewish Midrash, which I get into a lot in, in this book. Um, there's a story about God creating and decreating the world a thousand times before God makes our universe.

Hmm. And Obviously, that is not, that is not history, right?

Andrew Camp: No, right. Yes.

Liz Charlotte Grant: And yet, like, I, I felt like that was very instructive to think about, you know, the interpretation of that was like, God institutes repentance at the beginning of the world. And that is the purpose of God creating and recreating is to show that we can return, we can turn around, we can [00:22:00] change.

Yeah. Because God's self changes God's mind, too. Right. Which is just like, I mean, a mind blowing thought for evangelicals, right?

Andrew Camp: Right. Yeah. Like,

Liz Charlotte Grant: God changes God's mind? Are you serious?

Andrew Camp: Yeah. It's one of those things that you, we have to wrestle with because it's there in scripture and you know, I remember being in, at Bible school and like professors trying to explain it away.

And like, You know, open theism is of the devil. Like, don't even go there. Like, because then we're just taking away, you know, God is no longer God. It's like, well, that doesn't do justice to the complexity of that. Like,

Liz Charlotte Grant: yeah.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Because a lot of your book is about this, you know, ability to change and reframe and be okay with this wrestling that I, you know, and like you, you talk about that the presence of doubt simultaneously awakens hope and grief.

Um, which I think is just so accurate because doubt [00:23:00] helps us form a new way, but we grieve and we hope and, you know, in, in Genesis, we see this wrestling of God, even of like home. Who, what have I done? What, you know, who, who are these people? Like I love them, but they're, they're doing everything wrong. Um,

Liz Charlotte Grant: yeah.

Like what a mess.

Andrew Camp: What? Yeah, it is. It's a mess. And yet underneath it, you find this. You know, you, you just talked about it. You find this beauty, this repentance, this, um, healing this community that emerges, um, when a lot of us read it and we just see muck, um.

Liz Charlotte Grant: Which is fair.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Liz Charlotte Grant: It's a very challenging text, but I think, you know, the Bible in general, it is built as a conversation.

You know, it is so many different writers in conversation with each other about God, about the world, about our place in the world. I mean, I think that's one of the fascinating things about the Bible. [00:24:00] It isn't just one story. It's also not. I mean, I think there's one long narrative, right? There are themes that carry over from story to story from author to author.

There are so many perspectives on God here and on humanity. And I think one of the disservices of kind of reading the Bible as if it's really easy and there's one interpretation is that we don't get to see the great complexity that exists within this Christian story, the sacred text. Um, and, and I felt like, you know, coming to the text with all my questions, it's like, look, join the club.

You know what I mean? Like, like hundreds of writers have done this before you, not in our time. in the Bible itself. Right. And I get to join their voices as I wrestle with this text.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, because you also mentioned that every generation needs to reinterpret and find its place. Like, you know, we were raised as [00:25:00] evangelicals.

The Bible says it, I believe it, therefore that settles it. Like, you know, which is just does, like you said, does a disservice to this beautiful text that was created. Yeah. I mean, I think

Liz Charlotte Grant: it, it just services us to like, it just services, like our unique role in interpreting and in encountering God.

Andrew Camp: For sure.

Cause once you start questioning, you're either told to, well, you just need to pray harder or you're dismissed. Your questions are dismissed. And then you're left wondering if there is even a place for you in the community of faith. That, yeah. Really has nourished me like as much as I rail against evangelical white evangelicalism Like it is a community that gave me a foundation for which I can then now do other things and explore harder questions.

Liz Charlotte Grant: I totally agree with that. I mean, I, I can [00:26:00] do the same thing. I can kind of rail on it. But, um, one of the things I write about in the introduction is how evangelicalism gave me a real seriousness with which to approach the scriptures and some of the basic tools. with which to approach the scriptures. Um, so even if there were times at which I was encouraged or discouraged from using those tools, right.

The fact was that I know how to read the Bible because of evangelicalism. Yeah. You know, and I know how to encounter God, how to even kind of open an invitation to God. Right. By Because, because I grew up in this faith, you know, um, there's a sense in which I, these stories have nourished me over time over the course of my life.

I'm in my late thirties now. Um, and I feel a stubbornness to let go of them. Like, I'm, I'm not ready to relinquish these to literalists. You know, these are, these are my stories. [00:27:00] Um, they shaped my life. They've the lives of thousands of years of Christians. And I think, you know, You know, regardless how they've been read, they have shaped us, right?

And I think there's just more to explore there.

Andrew Camp: No, absolutely. And one aspect I do want to explore with you is sort of this garden. Um, you love to garden, you love food. And so the beginning of creation starts with God creating a feast before he invites us, before he creates those with whom he wants to partake with.

Um, and then we have the Imago Dei, um, I think which is a whole other conversation too that maybe we can bring into this because I think it's wreaked havoc on all of us, um, in some wrong ways. But how has creation, creation shifted for you from this book and this journey you, you've been on over the years?

Liz Charlotte Grant: Hmm. Yeah, you're right. I am an avid [00:28:00] gardener. I, um, Basically, I have a little urban farm in my backyard in the summer times. Nice. Yes. The big believer in the CSA, the community supported agriculture for farmers in my region, signing up to receive their vegetables every week. Um, and then as you mentioned in my intro, I have nine hens, um, who live in my backyard give us eggs and, um, they are wild little beings.

Um, Yeah, I think I myself have been on a journey with food. Um, I am a fat woman, which I write about openly in the book because I think, um, so many of us, our understanding of who we are in our bodies has been marred by American culture and norms more so than shaped by the biblical text. And so one of the things that is very challenging for those of us who are in non normative bodies, and I also am, [00:29:00] I'm a woman, which.

according to much of Christian history would have been a non normative body. And I also have a disability, um, an invisible disability in my eye, um, where I am low sighted. Um, that's a story for another time, but all three of those kind of added up to a sense of my body, me believing that my kind of, Image of God was lesser in some way.

And I think one of the things that is really beautiful in this early Genesis account is that the writer in Genesis does not have this hang up. Like there is no, you know, you image God if or when it's, it's, you just do right. God has placed God's image in you in some kind of indefinable way. Right. You know, there's actually a lot of space there to interpret what [00:30:00] that is.

Um, but we define, we, we mirror God in this world. And that is just a fact. Um, it doesn't matter what size you are, what ability you have, what gender you are. If you're mixed up about gender and sexuality, there's no, there's no if to that statement. It's just, you do mirror God. So I think that was very hardening to me, um, to be able to kind of affirm that for other folks who have non normative bodies.

Um, but that has also kind of. Tied into kind of a more complex relationship to food for me, um, but I would say, like, in my twenties, I became very interested in where our food comes from, you know, where is it grown? How does it get to us? Um, what does that mean for its nutritional value? It's deliciousness.

Like I, [00:31:00] I grew up having my mom cook and I was like, I will not do that. Like, I don't want to, I don't want to fall into stereotypical norms. Like I'm a natural rebel. Um, and I told my husband this when we were dating, I was like, I don't cook just so you know, which is, which is funny now because I am an avid cook.

Okay. Um, and I got into gardening because. I wanted to grow different ingredients. Like I wanted to try things like one of my first gardens, I grew, um, ground cherries, which are kind of a strange, you probably, maybe, you know, because of food world,

Andrew Camp: I don't know of ground cherries.

Liz Charlotte Grant: Okay. Ground cherries are, they're like little tomatillos.

They're yellow. They have a

Andrew Camp: husk.

Liz Charlotte Grant: They have similar seeds to like a tomatillo,

Andrew Camp: but they

Liz Charlotte Grant: taste, yeah, but they taste like. Sort of some mix of like pineapple and a [00:32:00] grape and like, it's like a really interesting taste and texture and flavor. And I, I started kind of, this was around the time of my disability diagnosis, actually.

So I had this rare eye disease that popped up out of the blue. Um, Incurable. It took away sight from my macula, like just killed some cells there. So I have sort of a hole in my vision in my right eye, um, which can't be corrected by glasses or anything. Um, so around the time of that diagnosis, I needed like a really absorbing hobby and I had already been a little bit hippie about food.

Like I had been interested in how do I get food from local farmers and had looked into that in the past for our family. Um, so in 2017, when I got this diagnosis, I was like, I need an absorbing hobby. I'm going to start growing vegetables. My husband was like, are you sure? Um, [00:33:00] and I turned our whole front yard into a vegetable garden.

Wow. So got rid of all of our grass planted, you know, probably. 12 tomato plants, um, onions, uh, garlic, ground cherries. I mean, you name it. I was trying to grow it. Yeah. Right. And I found such joy just like getting into the dirt and getting to go out and find these like beautiful vegetables. I mean, I, I didn't like tomatoes for the longest time.

And then I grew my own tomato for the first time and realized, oh, I've never had a ripe tomato. So. I've never eaten a real tomato before, but when I could like go out into my garden and pick a tomato that was warm because the sun had warmed it and it was squishy and juicy and complex and tart and sweet and, you know, [00:34:00] umami flavors, like somehow I'm getting umami like mushroomy flavors, you know,

Andrew Camp: um,

Liz Charlotte Grant: and then you salt it and you put it on a BLT with Sourdough bread and mayo and crunchy lettuce.

I mean, is there anything better in the whole world?

Andrew Camp: The answer is no. For you listeners out there, the answer is no. And we this, this episode's coming out on January 14th in the dead of winter when tomatoes Are non the distant, the worst.

Liz Charlotte Grant: I know sometimes I still have them. If I had a really big harvest, like if I had a bumper crop and then I can like maybe like put 'em on the window and kind of windowsill and just like hope for the best.

And sometimes I might have 'em in December. I've had it a couple times. Wow. Nice. But we are not at that phase right now. And tomatoes are just like mushy mealy, you know, flavorless. You know, just the worst textures you can imagine. But when I was eating heirloom [00:35:00] tomatoes for the first time, it was like, like, I got it.

I was like, Oh, this is what God made, you know, like I didn't grow this thing. It just, I put this seed or this plant in the ground. This thing grew up to be almost like a little bush in itself. Like it's taller than me. This fine. And I'm picking these fruits off of it that I, you know, I didn't really do much to nurture, you know, I tried, but like, especially in the beginning, I was not a great gardener.

Just, you know, I was just trying things. Um, and I just tried to put things. In the ground. I mean, it was the same with asparagus. I was like, when I tried asparagus for the first time from the ground, I was like, this is a different plant. I have not eaten this plant before, but like, if you can kind of snap off an asparagus spear and you can like crunch on it in the garden and it is delicious.

It is delicious. And, and I think it helped me understand the generosity of God, [00:36:00] the great abundance of God. I started to get a sense of. Ecology and ecosystems because I'm like watching all these things work together and I'm, I started reading seed catalogs.

Andrew Camp: Okay, you fully nerded out. Oh,

Liz Charlotte Grant: yes. The answer is yes.

The answer is yes. Um, and I'm like reading the origin stories of these seeds. You know, there are seed explorers who literally go, you know, to the jungles of the Amazon. To find this particular squash seed, you know what I mean, right? Yeah. And it's like, you know, the types of cuisine that have developed around the world and these different cultures and these different regions, you know, I know Andrew, you, you are into wine.

And so the terroir, the terroir,

Andrew Camp: I can't say it right. No, for sure. That's all good. Nobody can say it right.

Liz Charlotte Grant: I know. I know. But like the way that the ground Influences and [00:37:00] inflects particular fruits and vegetables with flavor, right? You know, when I found out that there was like the Papa in the Northeast that resembles, there's this, this fruit tree that I'd never heard of before, this native fruit in North America.

That is somewhere between like flavor wise between the cross of a banana and a mango that grows in North America. I know there are these some of these things I just never knew, but when you start looking around and you see, like, the abundance of things to eat, right? You know, in weeds, I now eat lambs quarters regularly.

Right? Yeah. They're delicious. It's a delicious like spinach vegetable and I like it better than spinach and it grows between sidewalks. Slabs, you know, like that's where it goes. That's where it likes to grow. Um,

Andrew Camp: what is it? Our friend, Lori Wilbert had that great phrase. She says [00:38:00] a weed is just a misplaced plant.

Liz Charlotte Grant: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. I, I mean, honestly, um. As I started to see this, like, abundant generosity that just existed everywhere around me, I think that's when I really started to understand what was at the heart of the universe. I mean, it was like, the universe is not about taking. It is not about scarcity.

It is absolute abundant generosity. Like that is the heart of this place. We get to live in a place like this. We get to have minds where we get to make decisions for ourselves. We get to eat in great abundance from the world. Um, I mean, honestly, it's, it's hard to even wrap your mind around, but this is the kind of God that we serve.

You know, this is the kind of world that God has made all of us interconnected. All of us have with abundant resources, like all of us together, working together to make something even more beautiful. [00:39:00] Um. That's the kind of God I want to serve.

Andrew Camp: Right. And I, I feel your enthusiasm, you know, and just the excitement with which you were talking.

I'm like, yes, yes. And amen. And then yet, that's not talked about in church, or at least in the evangelical church, it feels like. Like, what? And maybe you don't have an answer, but I'm curious, like, what caused us as evangelicals to lose sight of this? abundant, generous, non scarcity, non retributive God that shows up in Genesis and yet to believe we need a God whose wrath needs to be appeased.

And both can be true, but we don't, we forget about God's generosity. And, um, I, I don't understand why. And I'm, I'm curious if you have any thoughts of like, what happened, what, you know?

Liz Charlotte Grant: Yeah. I mean, [00:40:00] I don't know if, I go back and forth because, you know, Is, is God, is God's justice, the kind of wrath we've been told it is?

I don't know. You know, the thing that has kind of most informed our imagination about hell. Or about justice as hell, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's eternal conscious torment. Yep. Um, those words are not in the scriptures. No, there are certain kind of phrases like that, but both heaven and hell are very loosely sketched out.

Let's say, if that, um, which I take. As meaning that this is a less, um, a less central doctrine of the faith, frankly. Yeah. Um, you know, if we look thematically at the scriptures and say, kind of, what are the themes that come up [00:41:00] over and over again, it is caring for the earth. It is caring for the orphan, for the widow, for the marginalized.

That's, that's basically it. I mean, that's, those are, you know, those are the things that we come back to over and over and again. And, um, I think it's tough because we have centered so much of American evangelical faith around these ideas of kind of retributive justice. Like, yeah. almost karmic. Like, if you do this, God will do this for you.

You will receive, you know, um, in reality, if we, if we think about the whole world as God's kind of generous invitation to us to encounter God, and then to also kind of thrive in this place, you know, I can understand like why we've kind of gone off center. Right. Um, I also think like there is a reality [00:42:00] to.

The world as a broken place, too. And I think we have tried to answer that question in these different ways. Um, you know, what do we do with suffering that doesn't seem to have a cause? Like, what do we do with drought and famine and, you know, plague? Right. Um, I think there is a reality there that. you know, Christianity is trying to address, but I am, you know, I, I have to be honest that my, my theology is probably formed most by Lewis's great divorce here.

Um, then the Bible, which is, is that on the same level because it's Lewis? I'm not sure. Anyway, hard to say, I've heard a lot of Lewis sermons.

Andrew Camp: Awesome.

Liz Charlotte Grant: Um, I think, Part of the reason I think it informs my imagination is just that there is not very clear [00:43:00] pictures of what heaven and hell are like in the scriptures.

And so I believe that that gives us some license to kind of wonder and think and ask God and, you know, um, ask each other, what do you think it could be like? I think for the question of, Hell has been interesting to me to answer in terms of the great divorce in that, you know, Lewis sets up this reality in which those who are in hell are actually there on purpose because they have picked it.

They want to be as far away from God and other people as possible. So they have self isolated. Yeah. Um, and that is its own punishment. That's a very compelling image to me, because I think that does put the proper emphasis on our own free will to, to say, like, the invitation is always there. And that's, that's something that we kind of see over and over in the scriptures, you know, even at the end of time, [00:44:00] Jesus knocks on the door, he is knocking right and waiting to be let in to judge, which is wild.

Yeah. Um, so I, that puts it in some proper perspective for me, but I think my vision of heaven on the flip side. Is this kind of endless abundance? Yeah, like, it's like, what does it look like to be in the world and to not be able to die or to be afraid or to feel pain? Well, you know what? I bet you we're going to get to the bottom of the ocean, right?

Like, if, if we're going to, like, explore every square inch of this planet. You know, there's so much of the oceans. We've never even seen. There's species. We've never identified. Like, if I don't fear death, I'm going to get to the bottom of the Mariana Trench. Right. That's where I'm [00:45:00] going to be. And I'm going to be like, are there amazing food sources here?

Like, what are these creatures? What are, you know, um, maybe we have whole colonies underwater, you know, or maybe we decide, you know, what, we have endless time. Let's get to the far, Outer reaches the galaxy, like, maybe we go on, like, a huge quest, right? Like, yeah. And so I think, you know, that's, and that's that Lewis idea of the kind of farther up, farther out, further in, you know, um, I, I think both of those to me have really resonated.

And listen, I don't, I don't normally quote CS Lewis on these things, but I think this just feels appropriate as we think about, like, what do we do? With some of these major questions of faith, I think as we reframe faith, these can feel daunting. Like, am I still Christian if I reframe these [00:46:00] questions? And I would say yes.

I think it's, there is so much, um, history around Christians asking these same questions and answering them with different answers. Right. And for me, that's been really huge and saying there is permission to explore these things. Um, even if white American evangelicalism has kind of gotten off course in my view.

Andrew Camp: No, so much you've said, and there's worthy worthy of unpacking more. Um, but I'm also curious, you know, because you said, you know, we live in this generous world, this abundant world. And yet food scarcity, food, uh, insecurity, um, food deserts, droughts, like they're still prevalent. And even within our own communities, unfortunately.

And so like how, how can Genesis help us move, like you said, towards those greater themes of towards the margins of caring for the oppressed, [00:47:00] caring for, um, the widow, uh, the orphans.

Liz Charlotte Grant: Yeah, I had the opportunity to work in a job in food and security. Actually, um, I worked for my kids elementary school. I coordinated a CSA, um, different shares of food from a local farm for, um, food insecure people in our community, our direct community in that elementary school.

And so I would go and pick up the shares and bring them back and hand them out, um, to people on the playground, or I would give them to kids in their classrooms and they would put it in their backpack and take it home. Um, and it was like organic food from like 12 minutes away. Wow. Yeah. Just the best. Um, And 1 of the things that was really sweet about that program was, it was such a local and sustainable way to do it.

Number 1. Right. But the [00:48:00] other thing was that it was actually sustained by other people in the community paying for it. So, certain members of the community. Paid money for this share and other members got it for free, but you couldn't tell the difference like when somebody came up to get it, it was the same process like they weren't, you know, embarrassed by not being able to afford it.

It's like, everybody got it the exact same way. Yeah. Um, I think one of the challenges with food insecurity in general is that there is stigma around these things, um, and that can be really challenging and getting people the food they need. But I also think the other thing that is really hard is, you know, the inclination of the human heart is to hoard, you know.

Apart from believing and being transformed by this truth of God's generosity, I think we do hoard, we kind of hold [00:49:00] tightly to these, to what we have, because we don't believe there's enough, um, and I mean, literally, if, if, uh, certain members of our society in the upper Escalons, Escalons, if they were to redistribute even a tiny bit of their wealth, we could cure hunger.

Period around the world, just like in a minute. No, um, and so I think it is informative to us to just. And, and it behooves us to look at ourselves and say, kind of what level of, um, like, do it behooves us to look at ourselves and say, are we living as if God is really generous, as if we will have what we need?

I mean, I think in the developed world in particular, we are especially, um, [00:50:00] vulnerable. To believing we deserve it, or that it is ours. And the fact is, like, we live in ecosystems, you know, including with our other fellow humans. And so, what is actually best for our world is to share.

Andrew Camp: For

sure.

Liz Charlotte Grant: That is what is best for human society.

Um, I think it's, it's just a challenge to overcome, but I, but it doesn't mean that it's an impossible challenge. And I think we should continue to try.

Andrew Camp: For sure. There's so much, whatever the principalities and powers are from, you know, economic systems to government systems, to the internal heart of human beings, like there's something that.

Wars against this equitable sharing, um, you know, and, and it is a battle that is more than just a human heart issue. Yeah, [00:51:00] the

Liz Charlotte Grant: systems behind it. Yes.

Andrew Camp: Um, you know, like you said, like the wealthy have control over way more than I think we want to give them credit for. Yeah, we'd still live in a generous world and God invites us towards this generosity and we see it in the New Testament.

When the New Testament church practiced it, something amazing happened.

Liz Charlotte Grant: Um,

Andrew Camp: I'm curious what would need to take place for us to, to try that again. Um, you know, cause I, I think the world is waiting for something. Um, it's groaning. Um, but. Yeah, whether we whether we rise up to the task, I think is the question, um, we face, um, yeah, um, this has been a delightful conversation.

And I think we could keep talking forever. Um, [00:52:00] but, um, it's a question. I ask all of my guests. What's the story you want the church to tell?

Liz Charlotte Grant: Hmm.

It is probably very similar to what we've been talking about. Like the base of the universe is generosity. You know, God created because God loves us. Right. Mm hmm. That just feels like the kind of base story that I need, you know, um, and I think our whole world needs, like, to know that God, God created because God's, God loves us.

Andrew Camp: wholeheartedly agree. There was a moment this past year in the midst of my journey of faith and my spiritual director asked me like, what do you want to hold on to? And I'm like, I think I just want to keep holding on to love. Um, because I think if we can hold on to love, there's something there. Um, and it may take [00:53:00] a while, but, um, that's where I think beauty, generosity, love, abundance, um, yeah.

Community. Yeah,

Liz Charlotte Grant: generosity is just another way of saying love anyway, it's true and community and, you know, I mean, that's sort of, they're all sort of cinnamon synonyms of this, um, bigger picture of God's deep love.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. Um, and then some fun questions to end with about food. Um, so what's one food you refuse to eat?

Liz Charlotte Grant: Oh, um, probably. It would probably be like. Peppers sometimes like the really hot peppers. Okay. Fair. Anything beyond a jalapeno. I, I am a

Andrew Camp: reversed. Okay.

Liz Charlotte Grant: I'm, I'm kind of lame and can't handle it.

Andrew Camp: That's fair. No, no shame. Um, and then on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've [00:54:00] ever eaten?

Liz Charlotte Grant: Such a good question. I want to give it a good answer.

I think maybe, I think maybe I will say like the first time,

gosh, there's so many answers. I love, love all sorts of different types of foods. Um, I remember the first time I had um, Indian food though, it was like an experience with friends. And Um, up until then, I probably had been very vanilla Midwestern in my, in my, uh, cuisine choices. And part of that was my family and, you know, all sorts of stuff, but I remember going for the first time and them introducing me to Indian food and, you know, this is roti.

This is naan. This is [00:55:00] chutney. This is, you know, and they're, they're kind of showing me all the things, showing me all And then we went to a movie that was this arty. You know, it was like a Wes Anderson film, which I love Wes Anderson. Um, and it was just this experience, you know, that just kind of blew my mind as I'm trying all these different flavors.

And of course they're too hot for me. Yep. So I'm just like downing the rice. Yeah. Yep. Um, but it was, it was stretching in all the right ways, you know, it just kind of, uh, caused me to cause my world to expand. Um, dramatically, you know, in, in kind of one 30 minute meal, all of a sudden it was now my world is more open, you know, and now I'm trying sushi and Thai food and, um, Middle Eastern food and, you know, just falling in love with these different flavors and these ways of eating, um, that I hadn't tried before.[00:56:00]

Andrew Camp: Huh. I love that about, you know, just the, how, how our worlds can expand when we are willing to try. New cuisines, um, makes us appreciate the, again, the abundance, um, and the generosity of which this world is. And then finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in, if you knew you had one last meal to enjoy, what would it be?

And so for Liz, what would be on your table?

Liz Charlotte Grant: Oh, you know what? Um, my kids and I have this conversation all the time. We constantly are asking each other this question.

Andrew Camp: That's awesome. You're the first person. You're the first guest that's like had this conversation beforehand. They're like, some people are like, oh, that's morbid.

I'm like, well, actually it actually speaks to something deeper. And

Liz Charlotte Grant: I think about it all the time because my answer is always changing. Okay.

Andrew Camp: So probably depends,

Liz Charlotte Grant: but I, I think I would do really good sushi. Okay. Really good sake. And then probably creme brulee. Okay. [00:57:00] Perfect.

Andrew Camp: That

Liz Charlotte Grant: would be my ideal. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. Love it. Well, this, this has been great. I really appreciate, um, your generosity, the beauty with which you write, um, and just your invitation, um, and to into new ways of being. Um, and so if people are interested in finding more about your work and, um, following you, where can they, where can they find you?

Liz Charlotte Grant: I'm on most places online at Liz Charlotte Grant. Um, you can buy my book. It's called Knock at the Sky Seeking God in Genesis After Losing Faith in the Bible. And that's You know, where books are sold, if you must buy it on Amazon, please write a review. Um, if not buy it on bookshop with your favorite little local place, um, and I'm on threads, Instagram, et cetera.

So

Andrew Camp: perfect. Awesome. And we'll make sure those are in the show notes. Oh, my

Liz Charlotte Grant: newsletter. You mentioned that, but my [00:58:00] newsletter is the

Andrew Camp: empathy list. Correct. Yep. It's a sub stack. Um, you can find it, um, just by Googling the empathy list. And, you also have a website, Liz Charlotte grant. Uh, dot com. I believe. Um, and so, yep.

But no, do buy the book. It is a great read. Um, I think it does stretch our understanding of Genesis in ways that are helpful, especially if you've been raised in the evangelical world. So, yeah, uh, knock at the sky, um, get it wherever you can find books. And so if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or sharing it with others.

Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. Until next time, bye.