The Biggest Table

Episode 55 (Victoria Loorz)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I'm your host, Andrew Camp. In this podcast we explore the table food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.

And today I'm joined by Victoria Loorz.

Victoria is a wild church pastor, an eco spiritual director and co-founder of several transformation focused organizations focused on the integration of nature and spirituality. She feels most alive when collaborating with mystery and kindred spirits to create opportunities for people to remember themselves back into intimate, sacred relationship with the rest of the living world. After 20 years as a pastor of indoor churches, she launched the first Church of the Wild in Ojai, California and began to meet others with the same sense of call to leave building and expand the beloved community beyond our own species. She then co-founded the Ecumenical Wild Church Network. She's the author of Church of the Wild and Co-author of Field Guide to Church of the Wild.

So thanks for joining me today, Victoria. Excited [00:01:00] to unpack this Church of the Wild with you.

Victoria Loorz: It's Do so,

Andrew Camp: so I wanna start here 'cause it, it was a great quote from your book, um, that sort of sums up what I, I thought of when I was thinking of Church of the Wild and you write,

"Wild Spirituality is an opportunity to reorient our relationship with the whole world through a wild Christ that existed before Words and churches and empires. It is an act of resistance against the attempts to sever human participation from the whole system of life. Spiritual practices that reconnect us in conversation with the sacred world are the underground mycelium of Church of the Wild."

So it feels, can you unpack that? 'cause I feel like that was a great summary of what you're talking about in your book, but it's also a big concept,

Victoria Loorz: big thing. Yeah, it is. And it just keeps, it just keeps, um, not so much expanding, but maybe that, but, uh, deepening,

Andrew Camp: Hmm. [00:02:00]

Victoria Loorz: This, this, um, you know, so I, I kind of start with what. I love words and getting to what the core of what words, uh, meant when they were first, um, adopted. Mm-hmm. And how they shift throughout time and kind of lose, and often even become the opposite of what they were meant to be.

So religion is one of those, you know, that gios lis like ligament, it means reconnection. Hmm. And so, you know, the whole, the whole purpose of humans having religion is to reconnect not just with God, but with each other, with our own selves, with our place. And half of that has been, you know, disconnected.

And so it becomes in a lot of, in a lot of Christian religion, um, just about reconnecting with God, maybe with each other. Um. But, but we lose the fullness of what that actually means. And how does that impact our spirituality? We see how it impacts the world,

Andrew Camp: right?

Victoria Loorz: By, by [00:03:00] being separate, uh, seeing ourselves as separate, seeing the rest of the world as resourced here just for our consumption.

And in order to do that with any being, we have to desacralization them. We need to desecrate them. We need to make them not a holy other. And I think that's anti-biblical. I think it's, uh, so off base that it impacts, you know, it, it gives us license to destroy the world, which is what we've done as a species.

It also. It also more quietly, um, disconnects our, our us from our own spiritual reality. You know, it's like there's, you don't know what you're missing when you're cut off. And so that was really the impetus of this, of like, um, what, well, I mean, I got to a point in my own life where I was a pastor and that was part of my life.

And then I also was involved in the climate movement [00:04:00] as another part of my life. And you know, so right after. Seminary 30 some years ago, I did work to reconnect, um, the evangelical church with the rest of the living world as part of the evangelical worldview. It wasn't something new. It's not a leftist agenda, it's just caring.

Then it was about caring for creation and since then, um, it's just deepened that what I recognized after many years of pastoring and then many years in the climate movement, um, was what was, what was missing in both worlds was deep, intimate, actual kinship relationship with our place and all the other things, and that, that, as all the scientists say, most of the politicians even say, who understand the need for reconnection, is that at core it's a spiritual problem and therefore at core it's a spiritual solution.

You know, and it's not just churches getting involved with the climate movement. It's not just lowering our. You know, [00:05:00] climate footprint or whatever. Um, that's important. It's not to de-emphasize that, but at the core, the church is here to reconnect, to be an agent of reconnection. And so what people are needing, what, what the world is longing for is ways to reconnect in intimacy and in love with each other, within our own selves and within our place.

That's just something that has been, uh, so disconnected from our vocabulary and our worldview and our way of seeing that we've forgotten. But our ancestors, all of our ancestors knew this. And so it's, it's, uh, it's a, it's an act of remembering

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Victoria Loorz: Who we are in relationship with all of, um, life.

Andrew Camp: Right. And 'cause you talk about that, you know, this isn't, and you sort of alluded it to it in your just past comments, that this isn't just about us loving creation, but learning to be loved.

By creation. And so [00:06:00] like where did you, how did you get to that point where you began to see that I don't need to just love my place, but I need to be loved by my place? Because that's a different posture.

Victoria Loorz: It is. I mean, Robin, Wall Kimmerer certainly talks about it and um, but it was even before that was like, wait for me to just love somebody and them not respond.

That's not really love. That's maybe infatuation,

Andrew Camp: right?

Victoria Loorz: Or admiration. But actual love is reciprocal is two way, is me opening up and in vulnerability to another and they open up as well. And we enter into, you know, sacred conversation, into, into relationship the verb. And so in order to. Really, like, that's why I use the words in the book Falling in Love, because that feels different.

You know, when you fall in love with somebody, then that relationality is implicit [00:07:00] versus I love ice cream. You know?

Andrew Camp: Right.

Victoria Loorz: Um, and so, you know, we just are, have a, um, an anemic language for relationship and, um, and that's just the reality of the English language, the romantic languages that are disconnected from our relationship with place and with each other.

And most, I would just say all, it's just that I don't know all of 'em.

Andrew Camp: Right. Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: More indigenous languages. I was just on a call this morning with a woman who speaks, um, teaches Welsh, um, as well as an American indigenous languages as well as Hebrew.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: Yeah. Uh, is so much more deeply. The language itself is deeply embedded with, with locality, with place, with, um.

With concreteness, with soil. And so it's impossible to, in those languages, or it's not impossible, I should say. It is possible to have a language that [00:08:00] invites us into relationship, but be, we don't have that and so and so we we're it. And so it's a lot of undoing. It's undoing of, um, and remembering of, of what it means to be in intimate relationship that it's with any other, and you know, like some people understand, well, I know my cat or my dog, I know that they are in relation.

I know they love me,

Andrew Camp: right?

Victoria Loorz: And yet, what is it in our brains that just like block off that Anybody else, any other life being, living, being. Can't have that capacity. I mean, it doesn't even make sense when you name it. Mm-hmm. Um, that it is that we are in relationship and if God and Christianity and religion isn't about relationship and love, then it has lost its, I think it's lost its purpose. It's lost its core.

And so really this is getting back to this is a, these are developing practices, spiritual [00:09:00] practices of remembering and of living into relationship with, um. The deeper part of It's a lot of undoing Yeah. Of worldview and of, and of habits, um, and of language.

But then it's, it's developing that relationship. Once you develop a relationship with somebody very different than you, you, you, you expand. You expand,

Andrew Camp: right?

Victoria Loorz: And so that expansion happens when you commit to entering into these practices. And it's not something we have to make happen, we don't even need to, but it's just allowing the possibility and availing ourselves, availing ourselves to the who that is within and between all things.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: So, yeah.

Andrew Camp: I wanna get to some of that undoing. 'cause I think there are these forces that are, that have and continue to push us away from that relationship. But you, I also wanna get to sort of, to the touch, begin with sort of [00:10:00] the foundational 'cause you do, you know. You and I both worked in churches, we studied scripture, and so like you do ground your work in scripture.

This isn't just some leftist agenda like you said, like this is a, you're trying to help us reconnect with what God originally intended for us to be. And so, so help us understand the scriptural foundation of what you're trying to do. Just. You know, again, because people will say, well, this isn't biblical.

Like, you know, you're saying this is very biblical. Like

Victoria Loorz: actually, yeah.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: And so, and I hit a place in my own journey where, you know, I was a pastor and I had been in the climate movement and I was feeling something missing kind of thing.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: And it ga it came to a place where I had to recognize, you know, I actually experience, if I really think about it, I experience the presence of the holy, I experience the presence of God more when I'm in relationship with nature than even when I'm in church.

Hmm. And for a pastor who is [00:11:00] focused on very, you know, I was focused on transformational kind of practices or formational, you know, just like centering prayer and to say prayer and retreats and all these things where I wanted that. Mm. You know, direct experience with God.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: And so for me to get to that place to go, wow, you know what, there's something missing here.

Even as I've been focusing on it. So I got to a place where I had to admit that I had found that that was true for me. And I think it's true for a lot of us, um, whether we're in religion or not, uh, establish religion or not, or you know, do I have to then, like pastors have told me, you know, God's not a tree.

Uh, you're worshiping nature. You know, those kind of things. And it's like, okay, so are these two separate things? Is it true that I need to choose one? Is this a binary? And that's when I dove into the scriptures to just go, is this true? [00:12:00] And as I asked that question, it was like. Just sometimes when we just ask the right question, the answers are available.

Right. The answers were just like everywhere. It was just like, oh my gosh. Every single leader, every single leader in the Old Testament and the New Testament at a pivotal point in history and a pivotal point in their own leadership, were called into relationship with the wilderness.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Victoria Loorz: Were called into Jesus was thrust into the wilderness.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Um,

Victoria Loorz: others were allured into the wilderness. Um, some like Paul were kicked off the horse and sent into wilderness. Like all of 'em, every single one of 'em had a time where they were sent into the wilderness. So I, I, I began that beginning like, what is this? It's not just a, um, you know, like, like a, a metaphor,

Andrew Camp: no,

Victoria Loorz: this isn't just like wilderness has a difficult time like this is, there's some, there's [00:13:00] something too going out into relationship with the trees and the waters outside of the village that we're overlooking.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: Um, and, and then started to look at, well, Jesus actually, every single time, every time he went to pray, he went in into, not just in, which is a locational work, but the Greek is, um, is basically it means into, which is a relational word. Went into the wilderness, into the lake, into the garden. He went into relationship with the natural world and that's where he met God.

Hmm. And so we're overlooking that too. You know, like I say in the book, like we, the church is really good at, you know, focusing on prayer. That was my thing.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: Um, but we, and then, and then sometimes we'll go and do retreats out in the wilderness. 'cause it's pretty love some time and it's, it's calming.

We [00:14:00] can meditate out there maybe, but we, we disconnect 'em like, yeah. Like Jesus never did. Like we, I never, when I was a pastor of indoor churches, talked about prayer in the context of going into the wilderness.

Andrew Camp: And I think too, I'm curious, sorry to interrupt. Like, because I think when we, we think about Jesus going into the wilderness, or Moses going into the wilderness, or God leading his people through the wilderness, we think of it as a desolate.

Almost godforsaken place like Barren Desert, maybe. Like, you know, you went, you, you and I were talking and you went to Arizona State and Tempe. So like, maybe like Arizona desert, just

Victoria Loorz: right.

Andrew Camp: Devoid of life. But I don't think that's what you are hinting at. Like,

Victoria Loorz: they happen, these human beings, if, if we're gonna believe that these are not stories that were made up of people that lived in a, in a non, in a fairy tale land.

They lived in actual places and they were drawn into the wilderness [00:15:00] of their actual place, which for many of them, like in, uh, you know, um, the Middle East where a lot of these stories took place happens to be desert or Mediterranean terrain. And so we translate that. Like we gotta go out to the desert, like you just said, right?

But it's not, it's just where we are. It's like it matters where we are. Our look, our, our, uh. It. I mean, I always go back to that Jacob story of, you know, he's, he's in the desert, he's, or he's in the wilderness, not necessarily desert. He's in the wilderness running away from his brother. Um, and he has his dream and the dream says, you know, actually it's, it's connecting heaven and earth.

And he wakes up going, oh my God, this place is holy. And I didn't see it. You know?

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: I feel like that's what we're doing. It's like this place, this place is holy where we are, but we are so disconnected from it that we have to go on a retreat somewhere to like, you know, it's pretty. And then we come back home to [00:16:00] our regular life.

'cause we live in a city or a suburb and it doesn't matter. Like we are still. On this creation. Hmm. Um, you know, another, another scripture that was transformational for me was, you know, just like the Romans eight, the creation, groaning. What are they groaning for though? Like, that's when I went and did a deep dive on that.

And it's like what it literally says when you translate it, and I'm, and I'm gonna butcher it a bit 'cause it's not in front of me.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: Is, but the, the, the, the center of it is in order to be like Christ, to enter into our Christ-likeness, we need to like, it's provisional. It's only when and if we enter into that groaning with creation.

Like, that's when we are in connection with, with Christ. I mean, it's literally provisional. There's no way around it. There's no translation that doesn't say that. It's like, and it's, and that doesn't mean we just are like groaning, you know, [00:17:00] crying. It means that we are in such deep connection, just like we are in love with anybody.

When they are suffering, we suffer. Suffer.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Victoria Loorz: So it's that deep relationality with all of creation, not just with those in our family or in our community. Um, yeah, I mean, I've got a bunch more.

Andrew Camp: And that, I think that's, it's really, really helpful because I think, again, like you said, we, we, we've separated nature from our habitations.

Right. Or like, you know, the national parks have become separate places, you know, and I think they're worth preserving. I don't think we should get rid of 'em by any stretch of the means, but nature is a place we go to Perez, you're calling us to inhabit. Something deeper. And, and you're very specific to where you're saying, this is Church of the Wild, not church in the Wild.

Um, and so help us even explain, understand sort of why

Victoria Loorz: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: You know, prepositions matter and they matter deeply to you. [00:18:00] Um, and I love it, right? Because language is important and Yeah. Communicates deeply.

Victoria Loorz: Language not only communicates our experience, but predicates our experience.

Andrew Camp: Mm.

Victoria Loorz: You know, if we don't have words for something, we miss it.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: And so we've, in our language, we've lost a lot of the words of relationality and sacredness of, of the whole.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: Um, so yeah, so Church of the Wild, like it was a very intentional, every word there was very intentional. You know, I, there's some words that are difficult to sort of redeem because they're so laden with wounding for a lot of people, some Christian words.

Um, but some words are can be re-understood when you just place them with something else. So putting church with Wild makes you go, wait a minute. What?

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: And, and it's definitely, I mean, it's generally in, but people think of wild as, you know, Yosemite. Um, but it's, it's the wild places that are [00:19:00] wild to me means the essence of the what we're created to be.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: Um, versus domesticated by humanness. And, and so it's putting those two together that we are, that we are creating community of connecting with the holy, connecting with God, connecting with Christ in relationship with the whole, with the whole community beyond our species even. And it's of, it's in often, you know, it's not indoors.

You can kind of talk about it indoors. You can do some things indoors, but it's really you. When you make the time to really deeply listen to those places. It could be in your backyard, in your garden. It can be a park down the street. It can be the rain, the sunrise.

Andrew Camp: Mm.

Victoria Loorz: Um, it's slowing down with a reverence, with a reverence of the whole.

And then it's the of, it's, it's that we are not just inclu like [00:20:00] inviting the trees to worship with us. Even if you read the Psalms, the trees are inviting us into the constant worship that is ha that is, that is creation.

And so it's, it's this, um, the holding is, you know, what I now call just the holy wild, you know. I I need to just mention one more word for my, for the word geeks among us, um, is, is what really was a transformation for me was when I, um, learned and then deepened into, and did deeper study into, uh, John the gospel of John.

The, the opening Yeah. The openings hymn.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: Of, in the beginning was the logos.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: You know, the word is logos, which is translated in every single New Testament available right now as the word.

Andrew Camp: Yep.

Victoria Loorz: But 500 years ago during the Reformation, there was one, um, translator who was the first one to go back to the [00:21:00] original, um, writings.

Um, in, you know, since it had been canonized and since the Bible had been canonized and, um, Erasmus of Rotterdam, he, he was a scholar. He was like just really committed to like, what is. What do these words actually say? What did it actually say in the beginning? And he, his, his versions, um, used the translation of the word logos that was used the first four centuries, um, and understood by the people who first heard these words and first were grappling with this grappl, you know, who is Jesus now that he's gone.

Yeah. And understood Jesus as Christ. And so the word that John used or the community of John used to describe this, that God in the beginning this is, this is Jesus wasn't just a man who's gone, but in the beginning was this logos and that Jesus is embodying this logos [00:22:00] and logos meant then, and for four centuries after, and I think four centuries before it meant.

A deep relationality, it meant conversation, not word. Mm-hmm. It meant the whole relationship of backing and forthing and Mm. Um, and so it was translated into, into Latin for the first four centuries as conversation.

Andrew Camp: Wow.

Victoria Loorz: And to me, that changed everything. It's like, in the beginning was the conversation, and the conversation was God was with God and the conversation was God.

And all things became, through this conversation, there's nothing that exists that's not, that doesn't come through conversation, which is in that way of saying the sinew of relationship, which is love.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: And so that all of a sudden like, okay, now Yeah. First thing I'm starting to understand it in a different way, in a way that, [00:23:00] that makes sense to my heart.

You know? Like I've always loved that. In the beginning was the word, like there was something just really. Yummy about that part of

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: Of John. But that opened it up for me that this is what this, this actually means. It was, you know, I have a theory that it was changed politically, um, which I don't need to go into, but, um, but when we understand like, all of life really is a conversation, all of life only exists in relationship that we need each other.

Like our bodies are even a conversation. The, the bacteria and the proteins and conversation with each other. You know, the, the planets are in conversation with each other and atoms in convers, the protons and neutrons aren't even like nouns. They're just little verbs of relationality.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: Um, and that is, that's what Christ means.

Christ is that, is that. Send you that conversationing between all things. Okay, now I, now it makes sense to me. Now it's something I can, [00:24:00] you know, that changed everything for me. Right. And that's when I started to go, okay, we need a new way of practicing our faith, encouraging one another, um, that is not disconnected with the rest of the living world.

That is cut off the voices of not only other people that aren't like us. Um, which we lose a lot in that. Yeah. Um, understanding of who God is in that and, and, and the voices of all of the more than human, others that don't use, uh, language like we do, but we still can communicate because we're interconnected.

Andrew Camp: I I love that you touched on that. 'cause I, I loved your unpacking of that idea because it's like. You know, I was raised evangelical, and so we believe that Christ is in thing in all and through all, and by Him, all things were like, right? Like we have this deep idea that Christ, and yet like when it comes to nature, we're like, we can't, don't get too close.

Don't worship nature, don't, don't talk to the trees or like, don't.

Victoria Loorz: Right? [00:25:00]

Andrew Camp: Because it's like, and so that's why it's so weird of like, okay, we believe this Christ created all things and through him creation is upheld, like, you know, through his power, through his presence, creation is upheld. And yet like. We are scared of creation.

Right.

Victoria Loorz: And you gotta look at why. Yeah. You gotta, something doesn't make sense. That's when you start to go, Hmm. There's something here that doesn't make sense. And it, and you can't just go, oh, well, it's a mystery. You know?

Andrew Camp: Right.

Victoria Loorz: Um, you look into, and there's reasons why, there's reasons why we are afraid to, uh, connect with nature and they're not really, there's not really pleasant things.

Andrew Camp: No. And, and, and like you, you talk that there is a point of nature where it's not all just lovey-dovey. Right. Like nature

Victoria Loorz: part of God too.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Like, you know, there are wild beasts that can hurt us. Like, I can't be stupid and, you know, expect a coyote or a mountain lion to just, you know, we're, we're still living [00:26:00] in a world that is inhabited by sin and sin affects everything.

And so I think. We're not at that point where the lion lays down with the sheep, you know? Right,

Victoria Loorz: right. And it's, and the way life is, like, there's, like, the way life is, is we are kept alive through a system that I despise, but is real a system of predation.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: You know, one being to stay alive needs another being to give their life.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: Or we take it without mm-hmm. Which was what we do. Um, but we can still, you know, so, so species killing each other. We kill, we kill other species. Like, it, it's part of, I don't get it, but it is, it is what it is and therefore it is holy, you know?

Andrew Camp: Right.

Victoria Loorz: And so it doesn't mean I have to, um, go kill things, you know, to be more like God.

Andrew Camp: No,

Victoria Loorz: but it does [00:27:00] mean. Life is more complicated and more complex than what we want it to be. And there's something about knowing that, um, that we are not just predators. We are also prey. And we don't like that. We don't like the idea that a mosquito can, you know, draw their life from us. 'cause it gives us itchiness.

You know, we don't like that. We don't like when there's a bear in the community. 'cause you know, oh my God, they might hurt somebody and so I get it. But we've gone overboard on that, you know? Mm-hmm. It's like we've, we've eliminated the majority of predators, uh, apex predators and a few levels down throughout the world because we're so human focused that we're the only ones that matter.

Right. It's, but it's not an easy thing. But that's God. God is not an easy thing. God is not something simple of like, God is not all light. God is also dark. God is also when we're [00:28:00] sleeping, it's also winter. It's also compost. And we don't like to look at that. And it's, it's to our detriment,

Andrew Camp: right? So we're content in our black box churches where even if we're surrounded by beauty, we want no windows in a sanctuary because it's a sound better or it might look better.

And we can have lights and fog machines,

Victoria Loorz: right? We can create the fog ourselves. The,

Andrew Camp: yeah. Well it was fun. It's funny, it's like I, we used to live in Park City, Utah, um, before we moved to Flagstaff. And the one thing, you know, the, the church we attended, um, it's part of the Evangelical Free Church, but the one thing they did so well is they created a sanctuary full of natural windows that looked out at the mountains.

Victoria Loorz: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: And so like. You know, yes. Lighting was bad, and yes, sound could be bad, hard to work with. And there were some people were like, oh, we just, we need to get rid of all the windows and so we can, you know, so people can focus on Jesus better. Right. Like, you know, and I'm like, wait, what, what? Like, it just [00:29:00] like, like where, where have we gone so wrong that like, me being distracted in a church service by nature, by seeing elk or horses run across, like, might not connect me with Jesus.

Victoria Loorz: It just, when you sit, when you see it, it all of a sudden just doesn't make sense anymore. And you gotta go, okay,

Andrew Camp: yeah.

Victoria Loorz: What's, what's going on here?

Andrew Camp: We live in this moment where like, there's so much that's warring against us internally, externally, you know, technology, ai, like, you know, like the, the myriad of problems.

You know, we could be here all day, listen, right? Like, but I feel like. Your project and this, these ideas that you and your community are cultivating have a chance and a prospect of helping us resist empire. And so like what, how can Church of the Wild in this reconnection conversation help us get past this allure of empire?

Victoria Loorz: Mm-hmm. [00:30:00] Yeah. I think, um, there's a lot of answers Yeah. I think could offer there, but what comes to mind is a couple things. Um,

it took a lot of generations to, to get here. Mm-hmm. So to be patient with ourselves

Andrew Camp: mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: And. And so I think recognizing kind of what we were just saying, when we, when we allow ourselves to recognize what doesn't fit right within us, and we just kind of overlook 'cause we don't have the time or energy to, to see it, it kind of, I think it kind of begins there where you see, where you allow yourself to see what is mm-hmm.

And to see where you might be, um, might, maybe, possibly not be Right.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: Fully. Um, so it takes some, some humility and some vulnerability to look at, you know, to look at what you have, um, established within your life as your worldview. It's scary. [00:31:00] Mm-hmm. And so, and so we do need each other as we, as we do this, this deeper looking and then we need to, um, so we need support right there and then there's.

'cause 'cause that, that's like a, a death of, of a way that we thought life was.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: And so we need to remember how to grieve together, how to let that go, how to release, what that means, you know, and, and in in that we're emptying ourselves so that we're open to what is, to what is to what is God, you know, to, and, and a way to do that is to really be with others who are.

Already What is Hmm. Without ego, without, um, without these layers of domestication and, and those who are not human are already there. They live there. And so, I mean, there's been all kinds of studies about how spending time in nature low is your blood pressure and you feel calmer and you release stress [00:32:00] and there's a reason why, you know, and it's the presence of the holy Yeah.

It's, it's the presence of these others that the outer landscape is connected with our inner landscape. They're connected, they're not disconnected. And so the more we can spend time just being, there's, you know, there's all kinds of sort of little best practices and invitations we do through Seminary of the Wild, the work that I do.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: But really it's just all of us can do it. 'cause that's where we're from. This is who we are. And so it's really, it really is more of a remembering than some creating some new way of being Christian or whatever.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: It is just a remembering of who we actually are and being with people who are, you can feel that even just when people are really secure within themselves, you feel yourself feeling more secure, you know?

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: And so that's what this cedar tree that I'm looking at on my window like is fully cedar tree all the time. And just being with them, [00:33:00] just that mirroring happens is a real thing. But then when you recognize that your connection with this tree, when you start to feel like, wow, you know what? This tree is really solid and stur, or this tree is really leaning over and I feel like my life is kind of leaning over that.

Those aren't just random metaphors. That there's some kind of connection there, and that connective tissue is the presence of Christ. Hmm. Like how trippy is that?

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: And so it, it makes every encounter a sacred one. Hmm. Um, and so, and so at the, at the core of the practices of Church of the Wild, or Seminary of the Wild, or any of this, um, this movement that's bigger than the work that I'm doing, um, to reconnect with the rest of our, the alive world as, um, as at least alive.

And that, and that ideally as sacred because God is all of it. Mm-hmm. Not [00:34:00] just this little narrow recent part of it. Um, just availing ourselves again and again. So like Church of the Wild, that's what it is. It's like we meet outside, there's over 300, three to 400 communities that we know of that are in the network.

Um. And they meet outside, um, in parks, in, uh, you know, some of them meet in, in the middle of the city, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, and, uh, some, it's, it's ideally like out of the, out of the center of, of, uh, people and meeting and just maybe you have a, a theme, a hymn, a you know, music, a poem, a a scripture, a story, and then there's an invitation to go out yourself and just for 20 to 45 minutes just be there.

Just feel yourself drawn to a place. Trust it. Sit down, listen.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: Yeah. So,

Andrew Camp: yeah. I wanna [00:35:00] ask, 'cause I think some of us, you know, and I'm, I felt it, I'm sure you have felt it. We've been raised in a tradition that tells us not to do this. And so, like, you know, what you're describing sounds so good, but I think taking that first step to grieve it.

Like

Victoria Loorz: Right.

Andrew Camp: You know, it's comfortable, like, you know, and so to walk away, you know, I, I was a pastor, I got let go of a job for financial reasons. And so all of a sudden you find yourself without that community and it can be very disorienting. Right. And so wanting to hold on is a very real thing, even if we're disillusioned.

Um, and so how, how to find the courage just to even take a step might feel hard for people, like

Victoria Loorz: mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: Because it is so counter-cultural,

Victoria Loorz: right?

Andrew Camp: But yet so beautiful. And so it's like this, this t like if we're honest with ourselves, I think many of us will feel this tug and pull [00:36:00] reading your work. And I felt it in myself of like, okay, this fat sounds.

You know, hippieish, you know, like, or like it sounds not Christian, you know, like my mind went all the places, right? Like Right. And maybe not rightly, wrongly, whatever. Right. You know?

Victoria Loorz: No, it's real.

Andrew Camp: And so like, how do we deal with this tension we may feel with ourselves? 'cause I, it's real. And so I think we have to own that.

Like, hey, walking away or trying something new means the loss of community. Oh. Or means the loss of structure.

Victoria Loorz: Absolutely does. That's a really important, in fact, I got off because

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: It's only after that grief and that which the grief can only happen as you can name the loss. Um, and it's only then that in that emptiness, in that, in that composting, that new life emerges.

I mean, this is the Pascal mystery. This is nothing new. No. This is how life. Evolves emerges, whatever. It's how we grow. [00:37:00] Um, and so to skip any of those steps is not helpful. Um, so, you know, like when I first did, um, when I first started the first Church of the Wild, um, I was in a church as a associate pastor.

I kept talking about these things within the context of scripture, going, asking the questions like, what does this mean? What do we, what do we, what are we missing? So I think we need, I need to, I needed to start there. My community there needed to start there. And then when I left the, in indoor church, I wasn't planning on doing anything, but people came around me and they're like, that church you've been talking about for two years in this, in this backwards kind of way, or not direct, not backwards, just kind of a not direct way.

That's where I wanna go to church.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: And I was like, we can't, I'm just making that up. Um, and so it took a few months to kind of basically talk myself into, all right, let's just do it. At first, you know, it's like I didn't explain too much. I was just like, let's just try this. And everyone's kind of resistant [00:38:00] going, it's weird.

And when people experienced it, they're like, you know what? I just tapped into a connection with God as I know God.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Victoria Loorz: You're not talking about a different God, you know? And so it, it's very much of an experience. And so however you can create that experience for yourself in a way that's not 10 steps, but like one step.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Victoria Loorz: And then another step, like, and then like the first two years I only held services at Easter time on Holy Saturday.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Victoria Loorz: Because I figured there was enough places to go to do Good Friday. There wasn't plenty of places to go do, or Easter Sunday. But we just don't, we just kind of skip over, like you just said.

We just kind of skip over the Holy Saturday, which is an essential part of this mystery. And so how do we, and so I would just hold the, the Holy Saturday of the grief and um, and I think that was, you know, at [00:39:00] the time I was just kind of like annoyed that everybody just skipped over it. Yeah. But then as I, as you know, like all things that change, you don't really see it till after he looked back.

Andrew Camp: Right. Yep.

Victoria Loorz: As I look back now, it's like, that was really essential, you know? Mm-hmm. It's like that that piece was something missing for people and. Um, and you really can't skip over until you've made space within you. It's like truth and reconciliation, you know, like the truth. You have to see the truth, have the courage to see the truth, and then there's a grief and there's a, listening to the stories of those you've heard and all of that.

And then you can talk about the reconciliation and

Andrew Camp: mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: Even within traditional theology, like evangelical theology, just skip over all that. It's like,

Andrew Camp: right.

Victoria Loorz: Sorry. And then you, you're reconciled, you know, just say this, say this thing. Like, let's hurry up through it, you know?

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: It's, it's not real. And so I think as much as, um, you know, and I've made that [00:40:00] transition from evangelical to not

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: To something that's emerging. Um, and, but I think, I think that, and there's a lot of people that are drawn to Church of the Wild and to seminary of the wild who, um, like you were saying about your podcast who are not. Who don't have a background in Christianity, or they've left a long time ago, or their parents left.

Um, all of us though have that, all of us who are European descent have that history. It's in our ancestry, it's in our DNA, you know? Mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: Now. Yep.

Victoria Loorz: And so to deny that and skip over that, you know, it's good for some people, but I think people are really drawn to something that's still connected with, uh, who they are, who their ancestors were, and the truth, the, the, the, how do you even say it?

The real Jesus in the midst of it all.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: You know, it's like we don't walk, most of us don't walk out of churches because of Jesus.

Andrew Camp: No, no.

Victoria Loorz: [00:41:00] We walk outta churches 'cause of the institution, you know? Yep. Um, but we don't, we don't wanna walk away from. From the core of this deep connection with the holy.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: But we don't have communities to do that anymore. You know, it's like there's not this, and I hear this from a lot of people, um, who the, the container of church held this space where we can talk about our spiritual lives, where we can share our spiritual lives together. There's no other place in the, in the culture to do that.

We can still have friends, we can still have friends that left the church. But even that, it's just kind of like, so we're at a taco shop, how was yours? You know? Yeah. Spiritual life this week. Like we just don't do that. Mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: But

Victoria Loorz: that's what this offers. It's like a common ground, which is our common ground.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: And so, like I've had, uh, wild church gatherings where there were people from across the scale, you know, the spectrum of people who are still going to church on Sunday. They came to this on Saturday, they're [00:42:00] still, um. You know, there's people who left church a long time ago. There's people that are, you know, different religions, Jewish people or uh, people who are, you know, I've even had people that are full on atheist coming.

Yeah. And, and the, the, the, the container is held in a way of like, God is bigger than all of us.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Victoria Loorz: Part of the letting go we need to do is that we think we know it all.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: And so that humility of like, this is my experience and this is, this is how I've experienced God. This is how I experienced this time, this 40 minutes of just being.

And for a lot of people it's just like, I felt really rested, you know? Hmm. Um, I felt it was beautiful. Um, and then somebody, some people, you know, have a deeper sort of, um, connection or revelation in that time, and you're not trying to connect Correct each other. You know, you're just in this community of, of.

Of love, of like, what's your [00:43:00] experience of the holy, this is what it means to be in direct connection with God. And we're all, I don't know.

Andrew Camp: The experience is that healing. Yeah. The, this experience that is healing, that is peaceful. Like, you know, 'cause you also talk about like, you know, trauma and like all of us have some trauma, some bigger than others, and some obviously need professional help, right?

Like

Victoria Loorz: Right. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: But you also talk about the role that, you know, nature can play in, in healing our trauma. And so like, as we carry our trauma big or small, like how, how does nature and this spirituality in nature and connecting with Jesus and nature, like how do you see it functioning to help us re reckon with our trauma.

Yeah. And hopefully move past our trauma. 'cause that's what we want religion to do, is to lead us into flourishing.

Victoria Loorz: Right.

Andrew Camp: We can't flourish if we're carrying our trauma with us. [00:44:00]

Victoria Loorz: Yeah. 'cause we never like get over it. But we do get to a place where we've reconciled with it and it's been integrated into who we are.

And so, you know, there's a lot of ways to talk about this. And I'm not a trauma expert, but this is, I think this is real and this is what we kind of focus on. Um, and I think it was Gabor Mate who talks, who is an expert in trauma and Yeah. Um, and, and he said lots of things about it. But one thing that just sticks with me is that trauma is unwitnessed pain.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Victoria Loorz: Um, and so, you know, it's like you, you've seen people who have gone through similar traumatic things and some people are completely destabilized by it. And some people are able to integrated into their life and actually be of service to others, you know? Yeah. And, and I think a lot of the difference is whether they, when the trauma happened and since then they've been able to, uh, be seen in the midst of that and a lot of trauma it can't be seen [00:45:00] for, you know, rea lots of reasons.

And so I think, and I think that's even what Romans eight is talking about, is as we witness the pain of each other in, in relationship, the, the difficult, painful suffering that we go through that life is, doesn't stay stuck within us.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: It does transform us and allow us to be of service to others who have been through something similar.

I mean, that's just what happens. And so as we, as we gather with, with the, with others who aren't human, who have witnessed tons of trauma, if you imagine like they've been cut, these trees have been cut down twice and they've been forest fires and they've, you know. But, but to witness that, like what Roman eight says is like to, to be witness to that, to grieve with them, to groan along with them, allows the trauma to pass through.

[00:46:00] And we need each other for that. And so I think we, it, it, it just inherently happens as we avail ourselves. And, you know, there's a, um, there's a Mary Oliver poem I love to refer back to. She says, um, tell me of despair yours, and I'll tell you mine.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Victoria Loorz: You know, it's like when we go out and just can release, and I know a lot of people that have been through a lot of trauma as a child felt like they were seen and safe in nature.

Right. You just hear that time and again, because as a child you sort of inherently know that.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: And a lot of adult, uh, trauma recovery is done in relationship with nature because we can share our. Despair with someone who is non-judgmental, who's not going to, um, you know, uh, abuse that privilege of receiving our story.

Um, and then listening to their story back is important. Right. You know, and, and [00:47:00] what, what that looks like. You know, maybe uncomfortable people, but you just, you just ask for it and you just see what comes up, you know? Mm-hmm. And it's not as complicated as we wanna make it. Um, no. And so it's just that relationality of, and then the more you can allow yourself to be heard by the, the river, the more your, your courage.

You get to allow yourself to be seen by other people. Mm-hmm. And the more other people can receive you, you know, we need training as a community about how to receive that trauma and not give advice, and not try to, you know, shame them or fix them or anything, but just allow that to be. Cowi and grieved with them.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Victoria Loorz: That's where the healing actually happens, you know, that's the presence of Christ.

Andrew Camp: It goes back to that language of connectedness or the, you know, language of reciprocity. Um, you even start your book with like, you simply need to learn how to listen.

Victoria Loorz: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: Um, you know, and [00:48:00] this language of connectedness and like, can we relearn, unlearn and relearn what it means to listen not only to each other, but but to this creation and this beautiful wild creation that, that God has created for us.

Victoria Loorz: Yeah. Yeah. And. And with us, you know? Mm-hmm. Like this co-creation that's always unfolding.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: You know, it's not stuck in 2000 years ago. No. This, this spiritual journey, it's, it's constantly unfolding with each other. Yeah. And it's just as we, as we narrow what each other means has, is detrimental, you know?

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: And we say, these people are included in these, people don't believe the way I do and therefore they're evil.

And we, we have now licensed to be violent. You know, it just, it leads to, it leads, it leads to destruction. And that is, I think, the exact opposite [00:49:00] Jesus was talking about.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Victoria Loorz: So, um,

Andrew Camp: If we believe John 10 10 to be words of truth from Jesus, that the thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy, but Jesus comes, that he, we may have life and have it abundantly.

That we have to learn what it means to not steal, kill, and destroy and what it means to live abundantly. Right.

Victoria Loorz: And it's so easy to just skip over and, and, um, take out of context.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: Or just take out of habit, you know? Mm-hmm. The meanings, but meaning is always unfolding. You know, life is very different now than tooth thousand years ago to pretend it isn't as dumb.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Victoria Loorz: And therefore, the way we process the essence of these, um, these stories that have survived of, of Jesus and of the core of what our, our faith is built on, requires us to reenter and reengage, um, in, in what is reality right now. [00:50:00] Yeah. And we can't do that, just like Jesus couldn't do it. Right. Like all of 'em needed to be in relationship with, with the rest of the place and the land.

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And so to enter into this relationship, we all have to start someplace. And we've sort of touched on it, and you've even mentioned like a person begins where they are. And so like if listeners have enjoyed this and are like, Hey, this has piqued my interest, like, where would you recommend people begin?

Like some people live in cities. I live in Flagstaff, where I can walk out into the forest Yeah. Any day of the year, but other people are maybe in Chicago, like Yeah. And so like what does, how, how do you, how begin this journey mm-hmm if you feel stuck in a city.

Victoria Loorz: Yeah. And, and it's, um, I mean, there is something really life-giving to be able to walk out your garage into the national forest.

Yeah. And all of it [00:51:00] is holy, you know, the rain, the, um, the sun, the moon, the, the, the, the river that's now concrete, you know? Mm-hmm. The LA river, that's all concrete is still there. Like, my daughter lives in, um, in la, in Hollywood. Okay.

Andrew Camp: Okay. Um,

Victoria Loorz: right by Hollywood Boulevard. And they just, uh, after the Dodgers won, uh.

Uh, they went out and, um, went up to the top of, um, the hill there and they, and they were just listening to the city celebrating, and there was an owl there, and they're on their way back, they saw coyotes and they saw raccoons. Like they're, they're everywhere. You know, I, yeah. I a workshop in Chicago recently and I was astonished at how many people had relationships with places that were just outside of their neighborhood.

Hmm. You know, there's that, there's these kind of places everywhere. If we just sort of. Open our eyes. [00:52:00]

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: And it's, you know, like there's a one, there's somebody on our staff who lives in Manhattan, in New York City, and a, you know, fifth story up, and her relationship is with this tree that's right outside of her window.

Hmm. And that's become her particular other that she's deepened relationship with. So, you know, or it's, um, there's a, there's a spider in your shower, you know?

Andrew Camp: Right.

Victoria Loorz: Normally, and I, and I've seen this shift for me over the years, like, you know, normally be like, uh, get the spider out, kill a spider. Right. And, and I just noticed it like this last month, like.

There's this spider that ends up in my sh in my bathtub every fricking day. And so like one day I was like, I don't, I don't need to bring this spider out. And I'm like, I couldn't do it. Now I've shifted enough that it's like it takes me two seconds to put this spider in a, in a little cup with a cover and put 'em outside.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: Like just that kindness. Um, it's, it's [00:53:00] kindness. It's kindness to each other and it's kindness to self and it's living in a way that is kind to all, you can't just be kind to some people.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Victoria Loorz: Um, and there, it doesn't mean I want the spider to stay in my shower.

Andrew Camp: No. Right.

Victoria Loorz: Doesn't mean I'm not gonna do something to kill the ants that are taking over my cupboard.

But there's ways to do this. Um. This co-living with all other beings that is kind, you know? Yeah. Like when I moved into this house, um, there was a wretched smell and I thought it was mold. I was freaking out, like buying all these things to get rid of the smell. And it turns out it was a Mama Otter who had her babies underneath my house.

Andrew Camp: Wow.

Victoria Loorz: And so once I figured that out, you know, we were able to, um, have her move the babies instead of like, you know, like forcing it. Yeah. There's ways to do this where once the mama felt that her kids were unsafe, she, we just opened up the [00:54:00] places where she could take them out and she re nested them.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Victoria Loorz: You know, and then we, you know, secured it so that she could make her nest somewhere else. Um, there are unkind ways to do this and there are kind ways to do it. You know, there's, we have to eat. There's kind ways to do it.

Andrew Camp: Just

Victoria Loorz: kind of to have a burger

Andrew Camp: Yeah. In

Victoria Loorz: unkind ways. So I think it is, is a deepening into kindness as well.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: And um, it sounds so simple. It

Andrew Camp: does,

Victoria Loorz: but it's, but it does actually. That is the spiritual, um, foundation of

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: Of what we're about.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: Is love.

Andrew Camp: No, it's love, it's kindness. And I think it's being that, having that love and kindness towards yourself as you're on this journey, like wherever you are to be kind and loving towards yourself.

Because like you said, like I can't love others if I am anxious or insecure or, you know, [00:55:00] um, but

Victoria Loorz: love your neighbor as yourself. Yeah. Like, it's so foundational,

Andrew Camp: right.

Victoria Loorz: We, we can put the bumper sticker on, but then to really live into that is a lifelong, um, yeah. And it takes, it takes inner kindness mm-hmm.

Of patience of like. Dang it. I just did it again.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: And now I'm going to acknowledge that I'm gonna grieve that I'm gonna ask forgiveness.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: And I'm gonna move on. It's not a one-time deal.

Andrew Camp: No, it's

Victoria Loorz: an ongoing aliveness.

Andrew Camp: Right. Well, no, I've, I've love this quest, these, this conversation. Um, and so as we begin to wrap up, it's a question I ask all of the guests.

What's the story you want the church to tell?

Victoria Loorz: Hmm. I think it's just that,

Andrew Camp: yeah.

Victoria Loorz: That we are, you know, if, if the, if the challenges, the crises that we are facing right now are at the core spiritual disconnection from each other, from our own essence of, of soul, from Christ, from the [00:56:00] land, then the, then the church can be that place of holy conversation, of bringing in the voices of those who have been othered and be the place of, um.

Of conversation, of reconciliation with one another, with God, with the place. Yeah. And of, of, of deep kindness and restoration. Like, like the church. It's not just about, you know, getting rid of styrofoam cups and, um, you know, reducing your carbon footprint. That's great. It's about this, how do we integrate this spirituality of interconnection of

Andrew Camp: mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: Of Christ as the conversation between, um, into who we are as a church. And, and that has a billion layers.

Andrew Camp: Yes.

Victoria Loorz: But as we start to consider that how, what, you know, what are we, what are we called to do as this [00:57:00] particular community in this particular place? And there's a lot of great stories.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: My friend, uh, forest Insley has a, has a podcast called Circle Wood.

It's called, no, it's not called that. That's his organization. Uh, dang it. I'm gonna have to look that up. Okay. I'll add it later. Yeah. Um, but he works, he, he works with a lot of churches, evangelical churches included in how do they, uh, deepen relationship with their place. Hmm. And, um, not just like, I'm gonna make a community garden.

That's a good idea. But there are many ways that we can do this so that people have access to some wild land, for example. Yeah. That a lot of inner city, especially communities don't have, but churches have all this land, right. All over this country. So there's lots of things that, that churches can do and say and be, um, that is that focal of, ah, the voice, hands and heart of Christ.

Andrew Camp: Right. Yes. [00:58:00] I love it. Love it. Um, and some fun questions. Uh, you know about food. So what's one food you refuse to eat?

Victoria Loorz: Oh boy. Hmm. I had about, um, six years where I, I just refused to eat meat. 'cause I was like, I wouldn't kill an animal. I know I wouldn't. Mm-hmm. Even if I was, I mean, who knows when you're starving, but I just know that's not me.

But I'm, how, why am I okay with other people doing that?

Andrew Camp: Right.

Victoria Loorz: I've, since I've since shifted, um, so that. Because of this predation thing that we are there for one another, but it's, but it's about how we treat each other. So it's, so, it's, um, pulling away from industrial foods.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yep.

Victoria Loorz: And like, ideally, I would love to like, know the people that, that have relationships with the cows and, you know, and there's, there's [00:59:00] more and more, it takes some time of investing in your community to, to have relationship.

I'm sure you talk about this all the time.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: Relationship with your food means relationship with people who are, um, you know, tending the food, growing the food

Andrew Camp: Right.

Victoria Loorz: And relationship with the food, you know, themselves.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: Um, and so I think it's, it's more that, it's more that like how do I deepen my relationship with, um.

Those others who have given their life. So it, it means gratitude is different than Grace at the beginning. It's like this deep gratitude that these other beings are now part of me.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Victoria Loorz: Yeah. And they've given their life for me and how do I give my life to, to them, to others

Andrew Camp: for sure. Hmm. I love it. Uh, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Victoria Loorz: Oh my goodness gracious. Um hmm. That's such a hard, [01:00:00] oh man. Well, okay, here's my answer. Yeah. And this is true. Um, I have a friend who has gone through our seminar of the Wild Program. She's a chef and she focuses on local food and, um, foraging and fishing and, um, and the food that she, she made a breakfast salad, which sounds so weird.

And I normally wouldn't even be like, oh my God. It was just like, I couldn't stop. I was obnoxious. I couldn't stop saying every single bite. Oh my God, this is so good. Hmm. But, um, Ashley Rodriguez, she, she writes, um, she writes cookbooks and, but she has a deep connection with her food. Okay. And I think that's what makes the difference.

Andrew Camp: No, it does. Um, and finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in, if you knew you only had one more meal left to enjoy, what would it be? So Victoria had one last meal. What might be around her table?[01:01:00]

Victoria Loorz: I mean, the image that's coming up is just like a, it's more about the people that are there with me.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: And the, the relationship with, with the food that is there. Um, but I'm picturing just a Thanksgiving meal

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Victoria Loorz: And just, you know, foods that, uh, my mother and my grandmother made, even though they're like super unhealthy.

Andrew Camp: Yep.

Victoria Loorz: Because of the emotional connection there.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Victoria Loorz: I think that's about the best answer I'm gonna be able to come up with.

Andrew Camp: At many times it is, it's the food that re remembers the stories associated with it. Mm-hmm. It's the stories that go along with it, you know? Um. So, yeah. Um, so Victoria, this has been delightful.

It's, I loved unpacking Church of the Wild with you. It's helped me understand better, you know, what the book talks about. [01:02:00] And so if people are interested in your work, where, where can they find you?

Victoria Loorz: Um, well you can find the book on any bookstore, church of the Wild, and then the, um, the Center, it's actually the Center for Wild Spirituality, which is Wild spirituality.earth is where we offer programs.

And then, um, my name Victoria Lures um, dot com. You can get connections to all of those, including to the Wild Church Network.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. So yeah, do connect with Victoria. Read Church of the Wild, and you know, there's the field guide now to Church of the Wild, just to help you practice this. Um, and yeah, and just to take steps to reconnect with our interconnectedness of all of God's creation.

Um, so if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing it with others. Thanks for joining us on this episode of the biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. Until next time, bye.

Victoria Loorz: [01:03:00] Thank you.