The Biggest Table

Episode 44 (Cara Meredith)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast we explore the table, food, eating and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.

And today I'm joined by Cara Meredith.

A sought after speaker, writer, and public theologian, Cara is the author of Church Camp, bad Skits, cry Night, and How White Evangelicalism Betrayed a Generation and The Color of Life, a journey toward love and Racial Justice. She has been featured in national media outlets such as The Oregonian, the New York Times, the Living Church, the Christian Century, and Baptist News Global.

Passionate about justice, spirituality, and storytelling alike. Cara holds a master of theology from Fuller Seminary and is a postulant for Holy Orders in the Episcopal Church. With a background in education and nonprofit work, Cara also works part-time as the director of development for Made for pacs Co, an organization dedicated to providing mentorship and vocational resources to emergent creatives, contemplatives, church leaders, and community [00:01:00] builders of color. When she's not working, you'll likely find her reading a book, tinkering around in the garden, or hanging out with her family. She's proud to call Oakland, California Home.

So thanks for joining me today. Cara, great to meet you and looking forward to this conversation.

Cara Meredith: Sandra excited to be here.

Andrew Camp: So we'll just jump in with this question. 'cause as I, I was telling you before we started recording, as I was reading the book, my wife sees the book, sees the subtitle, and she's like, why, why are you ruining camp for everybody?

So like, why, why, why, why a book about church camp? And I don't think you're ruining church camp for us. You're actually holding a nuanced view. But like why, why a book about church camp?

Cara Meredith: Yeah. Um, well, yes, indeed. I hope that I am not ruining church camp for everyone. Um, as I say in the book, I love camp.

Mm-hmm. And because I love camp, I criticize camp. Um, so in that way, the why, um, is that really this book birthed out of paradox, out of the both, and out of [00:02:00] that tension of loving this place and also recognizing, um, that I, I didn't, I didn't know if I could send my own kids. To those camps that I had been very involved in.

Um, also recognizing the harm that, um, had happened theologically and um, then to specific people groups. So, so as far as why I hope it serves as an invitation to, um, yes, hold nuanced points of view, but also to. And to perhaps even create new ways, um, of living within, not only within white evangelism as a whole, but within these different arenas that are so formative to children, but really to all of us.

Andrew Camp: Right? Yeah. No, no. 'cause and you do, you do hold this delicate balance and tension of like seeing the good in camp, but also where we failed. Mm-hmm. Um, because for, you know, [00:03:00] any of us who grew up white evangelical. Church camp was like, it, it's the place, right? Yeah. Like, it's what we look forward to every summer.

You know, we're recording May 19th camp season's about to get started for a lot. Mm-hmm. You know? Um, and so like what, how did camp form you? Like what, what is the good that you wanna hold onto about camp?

Cara Meredith: Yeah, well, I oftentimes say I, um, and I say this in truth, but I went to camp for the first time in 1990, or excuse me, 1988 as a 9-year-old.

So I'll let you and, and the listeners do the math. And then I just stayed for almost another 25, 30 years. Um, really, I stayed for another 25 years and then had one last. Um, but in that way, camp was one of the most formative places for me. It was formative as a camper, um, as a, as a, a young teenager growing up in the nineties.

Um, I mean, I remember I, I had my first kiss at camp. [00:04:00] Like, I mean, that, that's pretty formative, right? Um, but camp was a place that I could go and I could be my, um, silliest, most authentic, um, campiest self. Um, I, in college, I started working at a camp the summer after my freshman year of college, and I stayed there for four years.

I worked there all four summers in college. Um, and then actually the first summer after I, um, was a high school English teacher too. So camp not only as a camper, but then as a young adult really became formative to me and very formative to my identity and in a number of different ways. It was an environment that I thrived in and because.

I was what camp was looking for, and camp was what I was looking for. I just continued to stay. So for me, that meant staying as a camp speaker, um, in, in, I mean, honestly more progressive evangelical environments that would allow me as a woman to speak. [00:05:00] But, um, I just kept going back to camp because I knew I could be who I most was deeply inside in that environment.

Andrew Camp: No, right. If you've been to camp, like I remember camp, you know, it's, and you even say this in your book, that it's easy to follow Jesus at camp. You know, like there's something, there is something magical about camp. Yeah. Like, it is, it, it can be a seminal moment for somebody's faith. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, and so like what?

Why does camp then keep drawing us back? Like, what is it about like this that we still yearn for? Because like even today, I'm like, I would love to go back to camp. Like, you know, like are, we've thought about, do I take my family to a church camp? Mm-hmm. You know, like what is it about camp that then lures us?

Like, and you mentioned like it helped you be free, but like there's something I think too Yeah. That allows us to, to experience Jesus in different ways than we do normally. [00:06:00]

Cara Meredith: Yeah, I mean for me, and, and I would say for a lot of people, I think the biggest thing is that camp, um, camp is intention to be a place where creation and creator kiss.

So I recognize that, um, I mean this is a, a podcast that finds a home under the Christian umbrella. So I can say those words. Right. Um, but indeed this camp is a place, uh, camp enthusiast, historian. He has a PhD in it, um, in the arena. But Jacob, so Sorenson, he calls camp, um, he calls them Sacred Playgrounds.

And I love that because it is a place where. Where God is present and where we humans can go and play. So I know that, um, for instance, I love to go camping with my boys, which doesn't necessarily mean we're going to church camp, right? But I know that as soon as we show up at the campsite and we build a fire and we pitch a tent and we roll out our sleeping bags and we.

Bust out the marshmallows or whatever it is, or having for dinner or dessert, [00:07:00] um, that there is gonna be something magical that happens there. So I think for, and, and again, that's not even within the walls of a church camp, but I think for a lot of folks there, there is first that, um, that gift from God to us, um, that comes with being in nature, um, being in such a sacred space.

I think also though there is, um, their attached to camp is nostalgia, is memory. That's also on the other hand why so many folks are also, some folks are having a really hard time with my book. Um, because, and maybe this is like your wife who's going, don't ruin it for me, but they, they don't want. Of this place to, to be tarnished, um, even if, um, there were harmful elements.

But, um, the, the memories that we make in the, in this, um, heightened, uh, physical, emotional, spiritual environment [00:08:00] where everything tends to be really big and campy, for lack of a better word, those are the memories that stay with us. So then you, you get, you get, um, folks who 30 years later, they talk about their camp high, that spiritual high that they experienced in this place and they want to recreate it.

Um, and yet again, it, it was so easy to love God there and to sense the love of God in that place. And that can be also the tension where it's so much harder when you.

So, yeah, I, I, I know I've deviated a little bit from the original question, but I think that's, that's where I go.

Andrew Camp: No, and it is, I love that, you know, sacred playground, um, the creative aspect. Um, you know, 'cause I think for many of us, it was a place where we were away from home for a week, you know, like mm-hmm.

No parents for a week. Um, you know, and so like, rules were different. Um, you know, and what you could and couldn't do was different. [00:09:00] Uh. You know, within the tight confines of evangelicalism, obviously, like

Cara Meredith: Yeah. You know? Yeah,

Andrew Camp: yeah. No, two piece swimsuits obviously. Um,

Cara Meredith: no. Make and purple. No. Yep. I mean, I, which I go into in the book like Right.

I mean, in truth, these are all elements of purity culture. Yeah. Which are really not helpful toward women in particular. No. Um, but there is so much freedom that happens in these environments. Um, in which yes, kids are able to be kids and, um, to thrive apart from, um, at least their parental authority figures.

Andrew Camp: Right. But yet then I think like with a lot of evangelicalism, there's a reckoning we're all having to come to grips with and what Yeah. The pitfalls are the less than robust theology. Mm-hmm. How did that process work out for you of being raised in camp, nurtured by camp, and then all of a sudden recognizing.[00:10:00]

The gaps? Um, yeah, like what was that process like for you?

Cara Meredith: Yeah. The reality is that, um, I equate this, and I say this at the very end of the book, but I equate it to a very slow moving beehive, um, in which there was a spiritual evolution that took place. So if I were a beekeeper, which I'm not, I do like to garden, I dream of bees, but I also recognize my limits.

But if I were a beekeeper and I wanted to move my hive from one side of the yard to the other, the reality is that I would need to move that hive over a number of different days and weeks and very slowly just move it one foot at a time. Otherwise. Um, the, all the low worker bees are gonna run from the queen bee or fly away from the queen bee, and they're not gonna stay.

So for me, the reality is that this book, the last time I spoke at a youth camp was in 2014. Um, the last time I spoke at a, at a family camp was in 2018. So hence that 25, 30 year [00:11:00] time period of being at camp. In the midst of that, I, um, I had, uh, I finished up my master's degree in 2013. So I think in a sense I can, part of it, I can blame on seminary where, uh, an unbeknownst to Fuller Seminary, uh, they, there was, um, there were certainly different perspectives that really began to, um, just.

Conflict with what I felt inside. Um, I was also in full-time ministry for nearly a decade with an organization called Young Life. And um, and that's where a lot of my camping experience, um, or my camp speaking experience, um, happened as well. Um, but I, I realized there was also a tension that existed, um, within Young Life's model of theology, um, that they were, um, that they were proclaiming needed to happen, um, in a, in a.

Um, and, uh, with a value toward certain, um, [00:12:00] theological theories that I was not in alignment with. So I think it was a combination of those. And then I, I would say the last was, um, just. Different people coming into my life that I recognize now. When I look back on that setting, really camp was doing harm to, and, and for me, those three people groups were women.

And I say that as a woman, as someone who identifies as a woman, uh, people of color, and the L-G-B-T-Q community. And I began to recognize, uh, the harm that was happening toward those groups in particular.

Andrew Camp: Right. Um, you know, and that's where I really wanna dive in, just 'cause I think it is the important conversation, um, because you have this quote.

Um, I wanna find it real quick just 'cause it's such a great quote and I wanna,

Cara Meredith: yeah. What did I say Andrew? You

Andrew Camp: said some great things. Um, I'd say, sorry. It was by, uh, Ross Murray. Um, he, he mentions evangelical camps want you to change for them more than they want to change for you.

Cara Meredith: Yeah. [00:13:00]

Andrew Camp: Yeah, so like, I think that's mm-hmm.

Where you, you know, this is where the harm comes in. Um, while, 'cause while camps foster a sense of belonging if you're a white, straight male. Um mm-hmm. And even I think for white, straight females too, I think it can, it can work, um, to some degree, but like for others, you know, those on the fringes, it, it, it isn't a place of belonging always.

And so, like, yeah. Help us unpack, like first unpack that quote like, 'cause I think that's where we need to start. Um, you know, and then like, help us understand what camp, the harm that camp has done. Yeah.

Cara Meredith: Yeah, so the, the section that Ross and, um, he did ask me to refer to him as Deacon Ross. Um, so Deacon Ross Murray, he's a deacon in the ELCA, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

Um, Ross is also a gay man. Ross is also, [00:14:00] um, a, a camp in enthusiast. He loves these places and he too was so. Formed by this place called Camp, um, since, since then and from and with and through all of those different intersectionalities and identities, um, Ross now runs a one week camp during the summer called the Naming, naming project, which is specifically for, um, which started, excuse me, with a grant to.

Um, camping options for Bipoc, um, the LGBTQ plus community and those who are disabled and really now is serving as a place for the LGBTQ community, um, in particular for kids. So they are able to go and they are able to be, um, their most authentic and free selves. Um, that is, that in all, all of which is then celebrated, um, under the umbrella of God's love.

Um, it's still very much as a Christian camp and is still, uh, very much celebrates God. Um, so in this, when I was, I, I came across [00:15:00] Ross, um, in a kind of, in a roundabout way, but I discovered this. And knew that it wouldn't, um, most ELCA camps would probably, I mean, some might still be following, um, the tenets of white evangelicalism, but the ECA as a whole is not going to be a part of.

The evangelical side of the church minus, um, the evangelical part of their identity as Lutherans. Yeah. Um, but for most listeners, they might notice. Um, but that being said, um, when Ross said that Eva Evangelical camps want you to change for them more than they want to change for you that. Was so true, especially for those whom Ross was most speaking about, which was, or which is queer identifying kids.

So just for last night or just last night for instance, I, um, had a private event, um, in Auburn, California, which is, um, a small town northeast of Sacramento getting into the hill country. [00:16:00] Just gorgeous. Um, and a lot of those people, uh, used to be very involved in different, um, facets of white evangelical camping.

And I would say for probably half the room, I mean, it was a small group. There were 20 of us there, but for half the people gathered there because we ended up doing more of a conversation with all of us than me sitting up front reading my book. For more than half of the folks there, they had left because they had realized that the camps they were dedicating their lives to and or the organizations, the ministries were not safe spaces for the LGBTQ plus children, kids, teenagers, campers, humans, whatever we wanna call it, that they were working with, that there were certain expectations.

So they might, so for instance, if they had, um, a transgender identifying child, that child. Would go to camp, but, um, because camps operate as private entities, [00:17:00] um, camps are, are allowed to discriminate. And so that transgender child might have to, um, be in the same cabin as some, as, um, kids of their assigned birth.

Um, and there are a thousand different ways that this happens. What does it mean for us? I think this is part of the challenge and, and every chapter, as you saw, every chapter could very loosely be broken up into three ways in which it, it starts with what I said at the beginning because really it follows this seven talk progression that I gave in a number of different denominational, non-denominational parachurch organizations.

Environments, but this seven talk progression and within it, so it, it's each, each talk or each chapter then is breaking down what I originally said, what was wrong with what I said, and what we can do better. Yep. And really just seeking to dream of better ways forward. So when I think of Deacon Ross and the words that he spoke [00:18:00] and the love that he has.

Not only for Grace, but of the God, um, who is Grace, who loves him, who calls him Beloved, who calls all of those campers at the naming project. Beloved, it makes me wonder, what can we do, um, so that we are the ones changing for them and for their needs, which, which is, which is. Which is exactly in alignment with who God is.

You know, I, yeah. So I, yeah, there you go. I'm, I'm preaching, but you, you're picking up what I'm putting down.

Andrew Camp: I'm picking up what you're putting down. No, and that's like the Jesus becomes us, like he doesn't ask us to, to become him like he becomes us and walks among like Emmanuel, God with us. Yeah. And so like, what does camp and even the gospel look like if we are to become mm-hmm.

You know, God with them. Yeah. Uh, you know, that's a different question than like, you know, how do we [00:19:00] get the most tick marks, you know, so our donors are happy. Which, you know, you touch on that like, hey, like a lot of these camps are run private, funded through generous donors. Yeah. Who love Jesus. Like, but they want to see is there money being put to good use and.

The only way they want results. They want results. Yeah.

Cara Meredith: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: Um, and so that puts camp maybe in a, a weird model. Yeah,

Cara Meredith: I mean, the reality is that, um, the reality at this hap is that this happens in a number of different ministerial situations, right. Uh, or environments. So it's, you know, this is not exclusive to white evangelicalism by any means.

No. Um, this, I mean, any in, in. In every church environment, numbers are a thing because, um, we have to be able to send numbers in, um, you know, when it comes to church growth or whatever else it might be to, yeah, I think [00:20:00] especially in this environment though, because. Um, numbers are connected to donor dollars.

Um, it just becomes a little stickier and trickier. So I, I do write quite a bit about this. Um, chapter six, which is supposed to be a chapter on the resurrection. And, and again, it, it follows this particular progression, um, of the good news, which is a progression of conversion, of trying to get kids from point A to point B.

You know, from either not believing in Jesus to being, to believe in or from being lukewarm to asking Jesus into their hearts for the 39th time again. Um, but within this, we, we tell the good news, um, of resurrection that Oh yeah. Jesus didn't stay dead on the cross by the way he rose again. Um, but from that, there's this convoluted, um, there's this convoluted path that starts to happen where consumerism, transactional capitalism, I [00:21:00] mean in all these different ways, begins to take over, right?

So there were a number of different folks that I interviewed and um, uh, one of the guys that I interviewed, he had worked at camp both in seasonal and year round camping environments. He remembered just feeling a little ick in his stomach when that letter came at the end of the summer, in which, um, at one of the camps that he had supported financially.

And it just said, and they said, Hey, thank you so much for giving because of you, because of your dollars. 103 kids came Jesus this summer, and he just sat there going.

We would convert and like that my dollars would be going to this and that. You would then be counting like, how many kids crossed this line? Like maybe that's not the point. So yeah. So it shows up in so many different ways. [00:22:00] And um, obviously we could talk about this for another five hours.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, yeah.

Because you talk, you know, like at what point does something become manipulative?

Cara Meredith: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Um, and you know. Teenagers, their hormones, emotions are run amuck. And you put 'em in this. Mm-hmm. Sort of, I don't even know what to call it. This space, this creative space, and like

Cara Meredith: Inc. Incubator. Incubator.

Andrew Camp: That's a great, yes.

That's I think the word I was looking for and it couldn't find that word. But if you put 'em in this incubator, like at what point are we preying on kids' emotions? Mm-hmm. Versus actually helping them fall in love with a triune god.

Cara Meredith: Yeah, I mean, welcome to maybe why your wife shouldn't read the book, right?

But also right.

It's one of those that, again, if the point is conversion, then there is going to be a certain [00:23:00] formula that is going to be followed. And within many of these environments, whether, and I imagine we're gonna get to this, but whether the night of decision happens on the first night of camp like it does in some places, or the fifth night of camp, or the last night of camp.

Because it happens at all different places along the way. Right? Um, if we are trying to get kids there, then there are also certain things that are going to happen to enhance getting people there. So that's where the program team might, um, they might do the program team. They are often the people who are, and they're being funny and they're telling jokes and they're making people laugh, but, but they might be doing that solely to try and break down walls.

Which is great, but also like. Why can't we just make people laugh for the sake of humor and laughter? Yeah. So, so there's that piece, but there's also like, there, there can be, um, there can be a tendency to run kids [00:24:00] ragged to make them super tired. One interviewee said, well, what were we supposed to do? We were so hyped up on sugar, we were barely getting any sleep.

You know, all of a sudden you get to decision night, everybody else is crying around you. It's, so then you have, I mean like is it, is it natural to think that, yeah, emotional manipulation group think might really be a part of this, but she was like, how else were you supposed to respond? When Jay Knapp, Jennifer Knapp started playing in the background, of course you were gonna cry.

Of course you were gonna make a decision. And for her, she was a Presbyterian, so that meant it was called confession night. So she supposed their pine con. Jane playing. I'm holding a pocket full of pine cones. I'm just, I'm confessing my sins over and over. Tears are running down my face like it was a desired result.

But also like, like where? At what point, I guess my last [00:25:00] thing, at what point do we go too far? Like, one thing I oftentimes say, we were talking about our kids before we got on this call. My kids are a little bit older than your. My sixth grader is coming into his humor right now, and which I love. Yeah, he's super funny most of the time.

But also there is a point in which, in which I just say, you just cross the line. You just cross the line. Little too far, cross the line. And I, I think that's where in these environments, um, it's really easy to.

Why are we doing that? Are we doing that just for donor numbers? Just so we can say, oh, we had the most kids accept Jesus into their heart this week. We had the biggest response. We really did a good job.

Andrew Camp: Right?

Cara Meredith: Like. Cross the line.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yeah. Or the effectiveness of camp. Like, you know, I don't, I no longer work in churches, but like, remember [00:26:00] hearing like, you know, we had this many kids accept Jesus, this many kids get baptized and this many kids are gonna commit themselves to ministry.

Mm-hmm. Like those what's, you know, and obviously in, you know, if you're giving a two minute camp report, like how do you. Distill, but it comes back to like, what's the point of, of sending our kids to camp? Like, you know what, why, why do we send 'em to camp? Like if it's only, if, if the goal is only to get them converted, like, well, chances are, you know, if I was raised in the church, I've prayed that prayer since I was five.

Mm-hmm. Like, you know, and have rededicated my life too many times to count, like

Cara Meredith: mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: So like, it really asks us like you. You're asking us to like reckon with the question of like, what's the point of church camp?

Cara Meredith: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: And do you have an answer? Like, do you, like, is there a point, like, you know, like what, how, what do we hold onto in the midst of, of a, you know, a desired set that you're working your way through?

Like a progression that, like [00:27:00] any good therapist probably would do. You know, like, you know, people want to work towards healing, but. There's also then manipulation.

Cara Meredith: Yeah. I mean, what's the point of church camp? I think if we were to go back to the beginning, well, if we were to go back to the beginning of camping, we would see that that camp was a place for white males to get out of city urban environments into the woods.

So maybe not that far back, but if we looked to the origins of Christian camping, camping in the early 20th century, it really was designed as a place. Um, again, God and humans to meet, right? So for me, when I am asked this question or questions like it, um, I, I do still think that camp, I mean, I, I still believe that camps are beautiful, sacred, holy places.

Um. I I also don't think that we need to do a whole lot for God to make God self known. Hmm. Like if God is in a place, which, which I, I believe [00:28:00] as I, I am a staunch episcopalian. Now I have hopped from one side of the Christian tradition, pawn to the other. My, my poor Baptist father is just like, where did I go wrong?

But for me, theologically, I believe that God is present everywhere, right? And if I believe that God is already in a place, present in a place, then there's just need. To to prove that, right. So I think I would start by simply saying, well, let's get rid of the need to convert and or for that to be the whole goal.

What would happen if we just simply had a place where kids and God and nature met where this holy kissing happened between the three? And then we just kept saying, Hey, God loves you. Hey, you are God's beloved. Hey, you are loved for exactly who you are as you are. And, and maybe that means preaching a gospel of [00:29:00] belonging over belief.

That belonging comes before belief that, um, all of a sudden kids realize, oh, well I'm in. Well, yeah, God loves me. N bd, no big deal. Sweet. Let's go on the zip line. Yeah. You know.

So hijack in which people come to faith over with fear. You know, because they're, why'd they say yes? Well, they thought they killed Jesus. Well, they're scared to go to hell. Yeah. Like, well, they, he's mad at them, feel really bad. Mad. Yeah. That God is mad and angry at them. Right. And so, I mean, there's one theologian that you may have read about, but, um, theologian, um, Jeff McSwain, and he talks about that quite a bit.

He, he just says. He says if people come to, um, faith out of fear, then they do not stay. That is where, that is where Deconversion largely, um, finds a home because they, nothing is keeping them there. Especially if shame is a part of that [00:30:00] and guilt, like of course, 10,000 people a day here in our country would be or are then leaving the and religions of their childhood.

Andrew Camp: No. And if we imagine camp being a place where we just preach God loves you. Yeah. Like we don't have kids. Again, like I hear stories, you know, from a youth pastor friend, like, you know, talking to his students and like, oh, I didn't have an emotional experience. Like I didn't cry. So like, there's something wrong with this me.

Like, what's wrong with me? Yeah. You're like, if your camp experience is based on. Emotions, like that's no better than fear. And you know, like, and emotions are great. Mm-hmm. Like we should experience deep emotions, but like if camp is measured by your emotional response and like, are we doing something wrong?

Yeah,

Cara Meredith: yeah.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Cara Meredith: And I would argue unfortunately, in a lot of these environments. Oh, because, so I don't know if you wanna go to Cry night yet. Yeah, let's go. [00:31:00] Let's go to cry night. Let's go. Let's talk about cry night. Let's cry night. So I alluded to it earlier, but they're almost always in the environment, in these environments because the point is conversion.

Um, there comes a night that kids are encouraged to get right with God, which is also a night of heightened emotions because. For all the people that I interviewed, there were different names for this night, and as you noted with one of your friends before we started the episode, indeed cry Night is a real thing.

I called it Cry Night, never to the children, only as a staff person and kind of in jest, but also what was I doing? Um, but, but it was also called Serious Night or Decision Night, right. Or again, the Presbyterian's Confession night. Yeah. Or the crosstalk. Whatever it was, there were a number of different names for this night and, and from it though, because the theory most [00:32:00] often employed in this night was a theory or an adherence toward penal substitution.

That meant that kids walked away feeling, um, like crap about themselves because of the human depravity present within this theory, and then feeling like they had killed Jesus. Right. I mean there, and I, I do go into this and there's one, there's one page I'm trying to find right now, but these were just some of the quotes that people said of what they perceived the message to be by and when, and as this theory was used to tell the story of God on the cross as an atonement theory, right?

What did that mean? Jesus saved you from an angry God. You were saved from. Someone else said, you're dirty, but don't worry, God loves you so much that he killed his only son. Another person, Jesus loves me, but his dad thinks I'm a piece of, and I don't know if I'm allowed to cuss on your podcast. [00:33:00] And the last one, I'm a wretched sinner and I don't exist and I cannot exist without God.

So, so those were the messages perceived That may not have been the intention of the speaker. That was not my intention as a speaker, but we're talking about, about 10, 13, 15, 18-year-old kids in these environments. It, it doesn't matter what the intention is. It is the reception, is it is that which is received right.

This theory is used because it works, right? There were so many people that I talked to, so many pastors, former camp staffers that were like, oh yeah, I hate piano substitutionary att theory, like, go read the Late Rachel Held Evans. She had big thoughts about it, of which the Theo Bros like went into full on attack mode toward her.

I haven't been attacked by the Theo Bros yet, but I won't say I'm above it.

But the [00:34:00] reality is that is that camps in particular, who were limited by a certain amount of days or time, whether it was a three day, a five day, a seven day, or a two week camp, they were limited. And so if they wanted results, this was what they had to use in order to get results, in order to get. Those numbers at the end of the week of the certain number who accepted their Jesus into their hearts for the first time.

Who Rededicated, who said yes to baptism, who said they would give their lives to ministry? So they used this and they employed this, we used this, I used this, and I employed this because I knew I could get the result I wanted. Right. That's

Andrew Camp: so. But the gospel so much more. Right. Like and we've come to realize there are so

Cara Meredith: many more atonement theories,

Andrew Camp: right?

Cara Meredith: Like it, like bajillions. Yeah. There are so many other ways to describe and or to talk about God on the cross. Right. [00:35:00] Jesus on the cross. Yeah. That people do not need to be left to feel like a piece of garbage.

Andrew Camp: No. Or like the, you know, Jesus died so I don't have to go to hell. Like, if that's what we're literally afraid of, like kids going to hell, like one, I think we need to wrestle with our own internal makeup of like, what, what do we believe about Jesus?

Yeah, but like you're not. That's not gonna help people love Jesus outside of camp.

Cara Meredith: No. It is a scare tactic,

Andrew Camp: right?

Cara Meredith: It is. I mean, it's, it's one of those that, again, like, I mean I think this is, I've, I've had some readers push back and. I think they're pushing back because camp is their sacred cow and they do not want to believe that anything like taint said sacred cow.

But the reality is that the message theologically, at least that is communicated in this environment, is one in which you've got, you know, it's, it's the old image on the donkey, and you've got the carrot in front [00:36:00] of the donkey, the guy. Probably a man riding the donkey is holding a carrot on a string on a stick, like down over the donkey's nose.

That's the dangling carrot, and the dangling carrot in this scenario is heaven. And then you've got a whip in his other hand and he's whipping the donkeys behind and the whip behind him. Hell yeah. And so you have both reward and punishment. You have the two, the juxtaposition, the black and white. Yeah.

And so of course children, they, they, they do not want the bad thing. Of course, they're gonna choose the good. Yeah. Of course. They're going to choose the better option, especially if everyone around them is choosing it, especially if that is most celebrated. Mm-hmm. By, by the grownups whom they esteem.

Andrew Camp: Right. Yeah. Yeah. No, and, and then this is why

Cara Meredith: we have to talk about camp right here, Andrew. This is it. Yeah. You did it right?

Andrew Camp: And, and then all of a sudden, adults are left bewildered. Why their [00:37:00] kids aren't following Jesus when they go away to college. Yeah. When they've been given a meager, scrap filled plate of the gospel understanding of the.

Cara Meredith: Yeah. You

Andrew Camp: know, where the gospel was simply transactional and, you know, it made no difference. And like you said, the camp world ignored the resurrection and the power of that new living, you know? And so it, it, you know, again, we get the results we want, you know, and we have to deal with the consequences. Uh, you know, again, I don't think anybody sought to have, you know, nobody did this with bad intentions like I wanna believe.

Yeah. Hearts of these Jesus followers, my brothers and sisters in Christ, right? Yeah. Like, and so, but like we do have to reckon with it. Like the decisions they make impact who we are, who I am today. Who you are today.

Cara Meredith: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And,

Andrew Camp: and so that's why we have to have these conversations. 'cause you and I both wanna raise our kids.[00:38:00]

Cara Meredith: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Better are different Maybe, maybe better of the, you know, but that they can face a world that is different than, you know, the mid nineties.

Cara Meredith: Yeah. Well, and well, and, and to be honest though, this, this is still happening today at camp. Yeah. So this is not just camps like of my childhood. No. Um, this is very much the rhetoric that is still being preached, that is happening in a number of different environments.

But this, for me, I, as a parent of young boys. Young, young men turning, seemingly turning into men. But it is, um, it is one of those that, um, I have to believe that even if I don't send my kids to camp, that what they are receiving from my husband and I from church when they, even if they're tuning out half the, you know, half the service.

When they go up to the altar because they are allowed, because all are welcome at the altar. Right. [00:39:00] When they go up and they, they put their hands out and they receive the bread, and they receive the wine, that God is doing something in them. Mm-hmm. When, when. People in our community and or everyone else, when they come up and they pass the piece and they say hello and they call them by name, I have to believe that God is doing something in those interactions.

Right. And when they hear the gospel being read, even if they don't understand. And when they see their mama or someone else preaching, even if they again, tune out for half of it, I have to believe that there is something spiritually formative that is happening in those moments that is, that is creating and laying a groundwork for a life of faith.

Andrew Camp: For sure.

Cara Meredith: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: No, absolutely. Um, but we are entering into camp season. We're recording this. Today's May 19th

Cara Meredith: also, you

Andrew Camp: know, and, you know, but, and then, you know, this podcast will be released June 17th. Right. So by the time these, you know, my, you know, [00:40:00] listeners are listening to it will be in the throes of summer parents.

I know parents who are sending their kids to camp. I know youth leaders going to camp. Yeah. That also want different, right? Like, you know, I have friends who have kids who identify L-G-B-T-Q, you know, and that are sending their kids still to evangelical camps and deal with this anxiety all the time of like

Cara Meredith: mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: Will she be allowed to stay? Like, you know, and so how, how do we help parents? How do we help youth leaders, people, you know, like if they're experiencing this at camp, like how do we have conversations with them that might not help them escape this camp hurt, but also like maybe change the conversation or help enhance what they're experiencing.

I. Yeah,

Cara Meredith: I think there for me, there are a couple of different answers to that question. Um, I, I firmly believe that, um, parents and [00:41:00] caregivers are the, are the first, um, touch point in a child's life, right? And so, um, I, in that way. I believe that parents and caregivers can have conversations with their children before and after.

Before. Here's what we believe, and you might hear something else, but I want you to, but, but tell me what you believe and, and let's talk about it beforehand, and then afterwards too, where that unpacking might happen. Um, so I, I would say that is, is one of my recommendations that, um, we can, and we should be having conversations about this, about values of.

Um, family belief systems about, um, who we believe God to be, whatever it may be. Um, that we are grounding our kids really in, in who we are and in these values, um, more than what they might, um, access or come in contact with at camp. [00:42:00] I think the other thing too, though, is that I wanna encourage people that there are, yes, there are.

Obviously are still very much within these spaces that, um, to me are, are not welcoming spaces for a lot of our children. Um, and I also give permission not to go to those camps. Um, but I, and, and with that I also say that there are some incredible camps that are happening and that are taking place. And whether those camps are HA and, and camps that are, um, under the umbrella of church camp, so to speak.

So whether that means finding a camp that's in another denomination that perhaps reflects your values or belief systems more, um, finding a camp that, um, aligns with, um, a child's gender or racial or sexual identity. Those camps do exist, like the naming project that we talked about, right? Um, but as well, there are, I'm starting to see a ton of [00:43:00] churches.

Um, in particular churches that are affiliated with the PEC post Evangelical Collective, um, that are starting to create their own camps. Wow. And they're going, we wanna do something because we still believe in the value of what happens when kids get out into these spaces when they're with adults who love them, when they receive a positive message about who God is and about who.

So there are a camps. Like ground swelling, that are happening organically that are just gorgeous.

Andrew Camp: No, that's awesome. Right. And I think it's just, you know, church camp is following the tale of evangelical deconstruction and reckoning, and so like mm-hmm.

It only makes sense that things new would appear. Mm-hmm. And that's a lot harder project at times is to create the new. Yeah.

Cara Meredith: Uh,

Andrew Camp: when we're so in ensconced in the old Mm.

Cara Meredith: Yeah. Yeah. You

Andrew Camp: know, uh, and where our kids find belonging, you know, and like where mm-hmm. Kids love to go despite its [00:44:00] $600 budget if, if, you know, our $600 price tag on the cheap end, you know, like it's, it's absurd to me how expensive church camp has gotten.

Uh,

Cara Meredith: it's in like, I mean this, I've had a lot of people refute this, but the reality is that I, I looked up the top five church camps in America. Yeah. And they were all across the globe. And average price for a middle schooler to attend one week at camp was $1,694. Now that being said, these were not, these, all of these places provided scholarships.

Okay. This did not include denominational support. This was the, this was the full price before any sort of, um, knockoffs happened. Yeah. But I still sit here and I go, I can't afford that. I'm sorry, I'm not a New York Times bestselling author. No. Um, the Theo Bros have not come at me yet, and so I have, they have not raised [00:45:00] my, my, uh, ratings yet.

Right. Exactly. Yes. But, but no, I, who can afford that? Right. And so camp them becomes an elitist privileged experience for those who can't afford it.

Andrew Camp: Right. Which then goes back to excluding the people that probably need to hear God's message more so than, yeah. The Theo bro kids.

Cara Meredith: Yeah. Yeah. Come on Theo Bros.

Come out. Come on. Ready. I know

Andrew Camp: I haven't gotten attacked either yet, so like, you know, I'm still flying under the radar, you know, and so we're waiting.

Cara Meredith: Andrew and I are here, here, we're here for the party.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. You know, I, I always joke with people that like, I'll know I, I've made it when I get my first really, you know, scathing email or Facebook post, you know?

Yeah.

Cara Meredith: I got my, I did get my first one star rating, which I didn't read. I Okay. I can, I could just, I can see the number of ratings. Yeah. Yep. I was sending an email out to my launch team and maybe it was someone on my launch team, but, so I don't actually know what they said. It could have been like, my book arrived late and I'm mad at Amazon.

Right. But I was like, [00:46:00] I have arrived. You've arrived. I got a one star rating, so.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, but I think, yeah, just to encourage, you know, listeners, if you have kids going or are involved in kids' lives this summer who are going to camp, like what is the discussion to help them just navigate the complexities, like for good and for bad, you know? And just to help them hold the beauty of camp and to recognize its place, you know?

Yeah. Um, in their life. Um, yeah. You know, and I think you're inviting us to hold the tension, and I think that's what's like, you know, as we've all wrestled with faith, you know, and like, what does faith look like for those of us raised in the evangelical world, who are mm-hmm. Who aren't quite happy there anymore, but like to recognize the beauty that they gave us, but then also to critique it in ways that hopefully we can build something new.

Um, yeah. You know, and that's, that's your invitation to us with church camp. You know, as, [00:47:00] as sacred as it is, it's, it's something we need to look at and say, okay, is there a better way?

Cara Meredith: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: And so if you could go back and do it over again, like what have you thought? Like what, what would that look like?

What would your seven day spiel look like?

Cara Meredith: Yeah, I need to work on an answer to this question. Uh, someone at my launch party also asked this and I, I just said, that is great. Can we do lunch? And I'll think about it. Yeah. But quite honestly, um. I think years ago, I mean, literally decades ago, I remember a friend who loved middle school kids.

She had, she had been a middle school counselor and she then, um, became a therapist for middle school kids. And she said, she said, if I could. Ask middle school kids three questions for the rest of my life, it would be this. They, or the three, the three questions, excuse me, that every middle school kid wants to know is this, and this is what I would center [00:48:00] my conversation on.

Yeah. She said, those questions are, who am I? Mm-hmm. Who are my friends and where am I going? Hmm. So I think if I were talking to a group of middle school kids, I'd, I'd ask questions with that, because I think you have those three questions. Who am I? I mean, you're talking about identity right there.

Identity, you can go into a million different facets of spiritual identity, of racial, ethnic, and cultural identity of sexual and gender identity. I mean, of every type of identity that exists. Who am I? Where am I going? Um, what does it mean to center ourselves in the present and, um, to not be scared of the future or to dwell on the past?

Who are my friends? You know, what does it mean to be enveloped by community? Yeah. Um, and to do this in a way that, um, also is, is perhaps with the God who was already present in this. Right? So there. Over and over and over again, talk about how much God loves you because that is [00:49:00] true. I believe in a God who does no harm, right?

So in that way, I don't need to like err on the side of human depravity and making kids feel like they killed Jesus and can instead just be like, dude, God loves you. I guess I gotta talk for another 20 minutes about that. But that's the bottom line. God loves you and you're God.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Cara Meredith: Like start and then stop.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And he surrounded you with friends who, who love you and who want to love you and find those friends who love you because of you. Yeah.

Cara Meredith: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Like no love relationship, no other relationship works. Starting with fear, like, yeah, I didn't choose Claire, my wife because of fear or you know, like I fell in love with her of who she is.

Yeah. And what she, who's she becoming like?

Cara Meredith: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: So why do we treat God's that relationship? Mm-hmm. Which is the basis of all other relationships differently, like,

Cara Meredith: yeah.

Andrew Camp: If I started my relationship, marriage relationship with fear, people would be like, Andrew, like don't marry her. Like, get out, like leave, like stop.

Cara Meredith: Better hope people would say that. Yeah,

Andrew Camp: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:50:00] There's so much and yes. Yeah, there, but it's also, yeah. There's good, uh,

Cara Meredith: there is good.

Andrew Camp: No, but to work with psychologists or people who, who know human development and to develop a camp model based on appropriate. Adolescent development like that might make sense.

Like

Cara Meredith: you think? Yeah,

Andrew Camp: maybe, I don't know. Instead of a seven stage, you know, quick redemption story.

Cara Meredith: Oh Lord. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Uh, yeah,

Cara Meredith: I'm here for it. I'm here for it. If you have an idea, let me know. I actually did almost put that as an appendix in the book. I will probably be writing that on Substack sometime soon.

Okay. Um, but I did initially, I, I had asked a couple of friends to come up with potential talk sequences. I ended up only getting one by the deadline that I needed, so I didn't put it in for sure. Um, but I, I would like to feature that at some point because I think it's a question that I.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. [00:51:00] Yep. Um, awesome. Um, cool. And it's a question I ask all of my guests as we begin to wrap up. What's the story you want the church to tell?

Cara Meredith: Hmm. I mean, can I just go back to what I've probably said 30 times already? Um, that God is here and God is in this place and this God who is the God of love, um, loves you exactly who you are as you are.

And so this God who is not a God of harm is just wildly, passionately for you, and that's what matters.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Awesome. And then some fun questions to wrap up. Fun. About food. About food. Okay. What's, what's one food you refuse to eat?

Cara Meredith: Hot dogs.

Andrew Camp: Is it because of camp?

Cara Meredith: Uh, you know, maybe slightly. I just feel like I was over hotdog as a child.

I just can't do it. My own kids love them, but I, I can't.

Andrew Camp: Okay. Fair enough. On the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the [00:52:00] best things you've ever eaten? I.

Cara Meredith: Mm. I mean this is, uh, this is not one of the best, but it is the best that I ate for lunch today, which was an In-N-Out cheeseburger, no onions. Okay.

It was, it was perfect. Yeah. And it is exactly what's coming out, coming to Mind. Mind right now. So,

Andrew Camp: perfect. No, there's, yeah. Being raised in Southern California myself, in and Out always holds that special, special place.

Cara Meredith: It was delight. Utter delight. Yeah. Yes.

Andrew Camp: And when people tell me that five guys is better, like they obviously have never.

Fell in love with Jesus. Like they just dunno. Jesus. Like

Cara Meredith: I was, I, I will say this, I did wonder if you were gonna ask me about camp food. Camp food, yeah. Most memorable camp food. If I can throw it in. Yes, yes, please. We, which actually, I think it was kind of in alignment with hot dogs, which is maybe why I have.

Like horrible memories. Yeah. And don't like it today, but at this one camp that I worked for, four summers, the Camp Staple, the most memorable food [00:53:00] was called Little Smokey. And they were literally little mini smoked sausages slash smoked hot dogs. They were. Absolutely disgusting. But they were like the camp favorite.

Yeah. Um, I'm pretty sure that like there were several summers that I lived on, little Smokies and s'mores, like, woman cannot live on, you know what, bread alone, little Smokies and s'mores alone. But she did,

Andrew Camp: did, yes. So yes.

Cara Meredith: I'm just saying.

Andrew Camp: I know. I'm sure. Yes. I, we, we didn't get into camp food, but yes. Camp food.

Yes. The joys.

Cara Meredith: And the sorrows. And the sorrows. Yes. Yes. Equal. Equal tear, equal territory there.

Andrew Camp: Yes. And then finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in, if you knew you had only one more meal left to enjoy, what would it be? So if Cara had one last meal to enjoy, what might be on her table?

Cara Meredith: Oh my.[00:54:00]

Well, like I said, I'm a gardener. Yeah. So I get really excited about the food I grow in my little urban backyard. Nice. So I think I would start with a meal from the backyard, although if you actually know gardens, you'll know that none of these things grow in the same season. So it's gonna take some like Holy Spirit magic, or.

Something, but I would get a big artichoke and I'd have artichoke with, um, melted butter and garlic again from my backyard because it tastes better. I would then, um, get a bunch of stocks of dinosaur kale. It's, it's the lato kale. Which is a special kind of kale. Um, but it's my favorite type. And I would, I would massage that kale, and then I have this lovely, um, like creamy orange, mandarin orange, um, salad recipe that is, I could just eat the entire thing and then I would just get a.

Big old fat heirloom tomato. Yes. And I would chop it up and you do not [00:55:00] need very much with an heirloom tomato. You can just chop it up. And I mean, I wouldn't even do like little pieces. I would do some big chunks and just put a little bit of sea salt, um, over it. Mm-hmm. And then I think I would probably, I mean, I know I said I just had an in and out cheeseburger for lunch and I, I do occasionally eat meat.

Um, but I guess my last meal would be vegetarian. 'cause then I would just have. Like big piece of sourdough. My neighbor, Theresa, she is like the sourdough queen. She drops off like a lesson or a, a loaf, excuse me, every week. So I would let her know that I was about to die and I needed some sourdough. Yeah.

So I'd ask her for a loaf and that would be the final piece of my meal.

Andrew Camp: Wow. I, man, I'm, I'm in for your meal. I love vegetables, you know, especially fresh ground, like until you've tasted. Tasted them. You never know. Like Yeah. Until you've tasted a really good carrot, like you're like, oh, oh, carrots. They're delicious,

Cara Meredith: but just you wait.

Yeah. I didn't even add a [00:56:00] carrot. Yeah. I mean, I've got several growing right now. Yes. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Awesome.

Andrew Camp: Well, Cara, this has been a joy and a delight. It's been fun. Um, thank you. Thank you for your, your ministry. And if people want to learn more about your work, where can they find you?

Cara Meredith: Yeah, on most of the socials, um, I am Cara Meredith Wrights.

You can look at Andrews, um, show notes to see how that is spelled. And then I'm on Substack also Cara meredith substack.com.

Andrew Camp: Gotcha. Awesome. Yeah. And do by the book Church camp. Um, it's a great book. It's a fun read. It's, you know, I, it helps us. Again, reckon with who we are. Um, and yeah, and if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing it with others.

Thanks for joining us on this episode of the biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. Until next time, bye.