The Biggest Table

Episode 21 (Grace Ji-Sun Kim)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another. And today I'm thrilled to be joined by Grace Ji-Sun Kim.

A little bit about Grace.

She is a professor of theology at Earlham School of Religion in Richmond, Indiana. She is the host of the Maadan podcast and has published in Time, Huffington Post, U. S. Catholic, and The Nation. She is an ordained PSUSA minister and enjoys being a guest preacher on most Sundays. She is author or editor of 24 books, including Healing Our Broken Humanity, Embracing the Other, Christian Doctrines for Global Gender Justice, Intercultural Ministry, and most recently, When God Became White.

She and her spouse Perry have three young adult children and live in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. So thanks for joining me today, Grace. It's, I'm excited.

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: Thank you so much for having me, Andrew. It's so exciting to [00:01:00] be here. Your podcast is so unique.

So thank you so much for having me.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, no, and it's been a great avenue to talk and understand not just the joys of the table, but also the struggle and the broken stories we, we carry with us at the table. And so I'm sort of, I'm really excited to hear from your perspective, especially as we wrestle with this white male God that you write about in your book.

Uh, and so one of the first quotes that stuck out to me from your book was, um, this one that says living in white spaces as a nonwhite person is exhausting. Can you elaborate on what that means for our listeners?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: Well, I think just in the U. S., white people, you don't have to think about your whiteness or the color of your skin, your ethnicity, but for people like me, Asian Americans, African Americans, Latinx, Native Americans, we always have to think about it. So thank you for quoting that [00:02:00] part.

Um, I begin the book by saying everything is connected to race. So for the rest of us who are not white, we have to think about it because it matters all the time. Uh, you know, We know black people are saying, you know, black while driving, because you can get shot.

And for Asian Americans, and as a woman, it gets exhausting because there's all these certain expectations of the stereotype. And if I don't fit in that stereotype, then they will say bad things. You know, if you fit into that, you know, it's not Great for myself. So it gets tiring and I always trying to explain myself.

Uh, you know, why do you think that way? Why are you saying that way? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? It gets really tiring. So I wish there was a space where I don't have to explain myself all the time. And [00:03:00] you know, my book is exploring this as well as I think the impact. so much. of a white male God has in our society, in the church, and for people like me.

So it is all intersecting. It's all intertwining. Um, you cannot really separate one issue from the other. So, you know, that's why it's so exhausting to me.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, no, and it's just sounds like if you try to live as God created you to be your question But then you have to shrink back and not be who God created you to be which is just as bad if not worse Yeah, so you're always in this dilemma as an Asian American woman, I'm sure

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: yeah And it gets very tiring

Andrew Camp: and so your family immigrated to Canada when you were a young Girl and so what How did race even impact hospitality and the table and the food you ate [00:04:00] growing up?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: Well, you know, I was five years old, so I started kindergarten in the middle of the year, and I still have clear memories of students in the class making fun of me. Well, first, I couldn't speak English. Secondly, I looked different from the rest of the class. We moved to a small city, London, Ontario, which was predominantly white, Protestant, you know, Anglo Saxon kind of, uh, city.

So racism, uh, I faced head on. So it was very difficult. You know, the racial slurs, um, said to me all throughout my primary school, um, the eye pulls, you know, just, Making fun of you on a daily basis, um, is very painful, it's hurtful, um, it's damaging. I know a lot of people who have been, you know, it's affected them throughout their whole life because it continues on in different ways.

So [00:05:00] that had a big impact. And, you know, of course, food is different, Western food and Asian food. And right now, you know, in 2024, you know, with social media and the world kind of shrinking and more immigrants today than there was in the seventies and with K drama and K pop, people are aware of. Asian foods.

You know, we have H Marts here in the larger city, so people can get it. And Korean food you can get in Trader Joe's or these other bigger stores. But in the 70s, it wasn't readily available. People didn't even know what it was. And so I remember in my grade three, um, School trip. We went to the zoo and in Korea, what's typically, uh, what mothers usually make for a field trip for their lunch.

You know, here in the U. S. It's a sandwich every day in Korea. It's kimbap. So back then in the [00:06:00] seventies and eighties, nobody has heard of kimbap. But today I think you could even buy the frozen ones at H Mart and Trader Joe's. So you can imagine these young kids. I Pulled it out, and it takes a long time to make because however many ingredients, six or ten ingredients that go into it, you have to cook it individually, and then you wrap it up.

So it's a lot of work, and my mother got up extra early to make that, and so I pulled it out of my bag when it was time to eat. Everybody, it was lunchtime. And everybody made fun of it. They, you know, say, Ooh, and, you know, what are you eating? What kind of food is that? That's all discussing all these things.

And so without even having a piece, I threw it out and like, that was my quickest reaction because everybody was making fun of. My lunch, which was made with so much love and care and a lot of time because my mother worked just to get up extra early [00:07:00] because that's what Korean mothers did in Korea. So that's what she had in her mind.

And so, you know, that was so many decades ago, but it still impacts me because I, I reflect on it a lot. I've probably written a blog on it that, um, Food, which is so important for all of us, you know, we cannot survive without food and the table is a place of hospitality. We welcome people, you know, and you can share and, you know, not just the food, but your life stories, you know, there's, it's a lot of sharing around the table, but we were outside, but the fact.

That people made fun of food and the fact that I had thrown away that guilt, uh, has been with me all my life. My mother has passed away. I've never been able to talk about it with her, and she probably never knew that I threw it away. She probably thought, Oh, you know, she [00:08:00] probably enjoyed it and had a good lunch.

But that Event so long ago has made a big impact on me and that, you know, since that I've been saying to myself, I should not be ashamed of my culture of my food. Uh, you know, food is not to be wasted, you know, there's always lack of resources. People go hungry and to throw away. You know, good food is sinful.

It's wrong. We shouldn't be doing that. And I know it happens in the U. S. all the time in restaurants and homes in churches and so many places. We just throw away food. Um, so that has happened. made a big impact on me. And so I hope that, you know, listeners were thinking, you know, listening today, your podcast, I'm sure some will be able to relate, you know, something that happened like 40 years ago.

But I hope [00:09:00] that, you know, we will be more welcoming of different cultures, that we will be, you know, accepting, because that we will Food is essential and has so much history and culture, identity, all associated with it. And food is something that gives us joy and, and comfort. So we should not be using it as a weapon against other people.

Andrew Camp: No, and I love that. Yeah, it does bring so much joy. You know, and I do love the fact that so much ethnic food is now readily available. Um, What's some of the stereotypes of Korean food you wish didn't exist?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: Well, I don't know if there's stereotypes, but, uh, you know, the utensils that we use is different.

So Koreans and a lot of people in Asia will use chopsticks. So East Asia and other parts of Asia. The world people use their hands, which is normal, [00:10:00] or you use fork and knives and spoons. So people around the world eat differently. It's all kind of wrapped up in one's history and culture. So chopsticks, which is, a wonderful tool.

Many people who don't use it find it so difficult, but it's such a practical tool. It's to pick up food that has already been cut up. Uh, but a lot of people in the Western world, we put knives at the table and you cut up your food. So there's already a huge difference. In how the food is presented in Asia, everything's chopped up, all the meats will be cut up the vegetables.

You don't need a knife, but I remember so many people making fun of the chopsticks. And even just more recently in seminary, uh, people made, we are [00:11:00] watching a video of a missionary who was, you know, a white missionary, I think in China. And they were celebrating someone's birthday, and I think the Chinese people were eating cake with chopsticks, which is very normal.

I love to do it, too. And people were laughing at that. That was very hurtful for me.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: There's nothing funny about chopsticks, and that is how we eat. It'll be just like some Africans or Indians using their hands to eat. There's nothing wrong with it. There, you know, there's so much meaning, I think Filipinos, and even some Mexicans.

The use of hand is very meaningful when they're eating food. And so for chopsticks, it's just an extension of our hand. It's, it's meaningful. And you know, this, you know, which country, uh, You, you're in by [00:12:00] the, the shape and the, the, the, what it's made out of, because it could be made out of plastic or metal or wood.

There's like so much significance to the chopsticks, but people making fun of it, uh, that's very hurtful and it's very racist. So I hope, you know, it's not so much a stereotype of the food, but it is the utensils that it's been very painful. I think when it comes to food, uh, Korean food, Japanese food is very, very healthy.

You know, we don't. We don't go to fast food as readily as people in the West. We're very conscious of the foods that we eat, you know, how much fat or meat, you know, that's all taken into consideration, and that's a very historical, cultural aspect, and I don't think you find that so much in the West. So I think just learning things about how foods are prepared and how we, um, Consume the food [00:13:00] is a very, very good, uh, thing.

And to add about hospitality in the Western context, if you're invited to someone's house, they always ask you, Oh, how many people are you bringing? Like, are you bringing kids? Are you bringing your spouse or significant other? That's always asked in Asia. Nobody asks that question. Why? Because.

Everything's chopped up. So if you bring like five of your kids, it's okay because you don't have to think about, oh, how many pieces of chicken do I need to cook? Because in the Western, you know, home, everyone's going to get a piece of chicken. So you got to make sure you have, if there's eight people, you got to make sure there's two extra.

So maybe 10 or 11 pieces. In Asia, that's not, we don't think about that. It doesn't matter because. Everything's chopped up. You'll just get a few less pieces or a few more pieces. So we don't need to ask how many people [00:14:00] are coming. And many people just assume you're going to bring your whole family or many other people with you.

And that's a very common practice of hospitality that you will bring people that are associated with you to the table, to people's home. And traditionally we sat on the floor, so it didn't really matter if extra people came, you just kind of squeezed into the round table. That was already on the floor.

So all these acts of hospitality, which are so different. And I find in Asian cultures, India and East Asian and many African cultures are way more hospitable than this Western world where, you know, the knife is at the table and you're cutting up your meat or your fish.

Andrew Camp: Hmm. That's really interesting. Um, I never knew that about, You know, the asking of how many people and I, you know, it's just part of the story I live in.

And so it's just a natural assumption,

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: um, [00:15:00]

Andrew Camp: you know, and so is it, is it rude to ask a, you know, if I'm inviting a Korean over for dinner, is it rude?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: No, we're so used to it now living in this culture, but I was just trying to make a comparison of what is happening and I find the Asian culture or the African or South American way more hospitable, but I don't think it's rude because I think it's just a common thing that you do here.

So it's okay. I accept it and I will answer how many will be coming.

Andrew Camp: Gotcha. And so as. You raised your own family. What, how did hospitality and the table emerge for your family? You know, as you were raising your kids, um, as second generation. Um, kids in North America

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: that everyone is welcome at the table, although, you know, me with all those experiences of racism, which is, which is all tied [00:16:00] into this white male God.

I was always so nervous. about sharing Korean food. Like if anyone was coming over a white person, uh, it was always going to be some sandwich or something like a non Korean food, because I was terrified to serve it. Uh, but you know, The last 15, 20 years with K dramas being so popular and people understanding Korean food, anytime someone comes over, I'm always saying, is Korean food okay?

Because that's going to be my first choice of cookie. And then if they can't eat it, then I'll just try to make some Western food. But I think, uh, you know, with the children, you know, I always Okay, cooked Korean food, some of them, you know, they get tired of it, but I think as they're growing older, they've been very appreciative because they know it's so much healthier.[00:17:00]

It's good for your body, all these probiotics found in Korean food, but it's good for their gut. So they, you know, they search for Korean food now.

Andrew Camp: Nice, that's awesome. Yeah, and so then as we think about sort of dismantling this white American male God That just you know is prevalent you you mentioned growing up with the picture of the white Jesus above your sofa So it's the first thing you see How how can the table be used as a means of dismantling and changing the narrative and expanding our view of God?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: Well, um, I think table is one way. I don't think it's the only way. And I don't know if that would be, uh, like someone's priority. I think your podcast is very interesting. There's so many aspects to dismantle. But the table is one good way to show hospitality in that we are all human beings.

[00:18:00] We can eat chicken, we may prepare it differently with different spices, I think, maybe Western food is not, you don't need to marinate so much, but in the Korean food and Chinese food, there's a lot of marination going, you know, overnight marinating, or there's a lot that goes into the prepare, but it's the same chicken, but, you know, we can, you know, Be able to share, uh, that even if you eat plain food or spicy food, that we're all human beings, that we're, we can be all part of the body of Christ.

So I think at the table, you can start sharing this and work towards dismantling this white male God. I think this white male God has been Uh, in the book, I go into more depth of how it became, but then let's go into why it's being reinforced. It's being reinforced so that that white people can reinforce their own power, [00:19:00] can legitimize their status quo, can allow whiteness to continue to happen in our society and, um, to oppress those who are different.

So, this white male God has spoken. been used as a tool to oppress people of color and also women of color. So women have been oppressed, marginalized. We are, we have been, and we continue to live in a patriarchal society. So hopefully through the sharing of food at the table, through love, because, you know, if you are able to break bread with another, You will not, they, that person will not be an enemy.

So, if we can break bread with those who are so different from us, um, either ethnicity wise or socioeconomic, um, [00:20:00] are, gender identity or human sexuality. If you are able to break bread, if you have some hesitation to, once you break bread with one another, you recognize that we are all human beings. At the end of the day, uh, we may be different the way we look, the way we dress, the types of food. But I think that that will help us to dismantle racism by dismantling this white male God.

You know, none of us have seen God. We don't know how God looks like, but God has been imagined as a white man. And, you know, I spoke in St. Petersburg, and if you've ever been there, um, Dali Museum is there in St. Petersburg, so I visited the museum, and one of Dali's paintings, you know, he's our contemporary artist, [00:21:00] um, and one of the paintings is called, I think, the Ecumenical Council. It's a very busy painting, like a million things happening in that painting, but at the top, it, At the top, he has, he painted God, the father, and then the dove as a spirit, and then Jesus.

But it's interesting that, um, this was the first and the only one where I've seen a naked God. So Dali paints a male naked God. And so even today, you know, even in our recent contemporary world, the reinforcement of a white male God. to reinforce kind of, uh, this white European, uh, superiority over the rest of the world, uh, is quite interesting to see.

And so as a theologian, for me, you know, much of my task is to dismantle this. To dismantle this white male God [00:22:00] so that in turn, we can work towards a more just society, a more equal society, uh, eliminate patriarchy in our churches and in our society, in the family, and in our communities and get rid of racism.

That is also so racism is systemic. So to eliminate that from our society, from our churches is so important to do.

Andrew Camp: No, it is, you know, and whites suffer from racism, not that we experience it, but our stories are eliminated. And you mentioned this in the book of we lose our identity, our cultural identity, um, by this whiteness.

So we're no longer Irish American. We're just white. Um, Exactly. And so it's the elimination of all stories that we suffer from. Um, and so yeah, your book is, is delightful, um, and a challenge, [00:23:00] you know, um, you know, and as, as we think about then like liturgies, is there a way to cultivate a non white liturgy of the Lord's table?

Like what, what might that look like maybe on a smaller practical scale?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: Yeah. So I think, um, Still, many people go to church, but many don't, but I think the liturgy for those who attend church is crucial because it's repetitive. It's kind of what you say gets reinforced in your own brain and your own way of thinking.

I've always said that words are so powerful. So if you continue to use the male language, and then those who say words aren't that important You know, then you could just throw in the pronoun thing, and everybody gets all uptight about, you know, why don't we use they, them for God, and everybody's going to get uptight.

So once you know that people get uptight, then we know that words are [00:24:00] important. It's just because they form our thoughts. They influence the way we think and the way we behave. You would think that words aren't that powerful, but they are. So if we're going to think about liturgy, I think we have really have to move away from this white language.

You know, I grew up, Oh, Fairest, Lord Jesus, and, you know, wash, you know, with the white, you know, the white lamb and all this, you know, white has always been associated with good and black is evil and horrible. So. Then the people who are dark, our skin are always viewed as evil and bad people. So we really have to break this down.

So move away from those types of languages. We need to write new hymns and gospel songs and new prayers and prayers of confession, a call to worship. All these are very important and to move away from the male language too. In the book, [00:25:00] I go into. Uh, you know, retrieving all these other, uh, rich biblical imagery and language that can move away from the white male God.

So why don't we incorporate some of that? I know people are going to be uptight and upset, but I'm not saying change everything all at once because I think that might be too dramatic, but to do a little bit at a time and so that people can get their feet wet. and come to appreciate. And I think pastors and leaders need to explain there are these biblical words and images that can be very helpful to move away from this gendered and from this racialized understanding of God, which has been so detrimental to people like me.

, I think how, um, our words are so crucial that we need to kind of slowly Teach the people in the [00:26:00] church. And I think ministers and leaders really need to educate themselves and teach the congregation. Actually, many of them are really hungry for this.

The book just came out, but I've already done a few. Talks in churches and people in the churches are using them now as Bible study. And so people are hungry for this. So I hope that leaders and ministers will really, um, kind of teach this in their church, uh, because people do want to learn about it.

Andrew Camp: No, I love it. Um, and it is so important, you know, and so many great resources have come out, um, even from InterVarsity Press of, you know, dismantling racism and really applaud InterVarsity's work. And your book is just another great resource. book in a line of books from InterVarsity.

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: Oh, so much. so much.

Andrew Camp: You know, and as [00:27:00] we close, there's a question I ask, and, um, all of my guests, and, um, what's the story you want the church to tell?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: Okay, well, there's a lot of stories, but I think the main story would be that God loves us no how we look, what our culture, our ethnicity is, what our gender, our sexuality, whatever it is.

We're all unique. We're all different. There's nobody the same as you, Andrew, or me. So all of our uniqueness, God loves. So that's it. Love, I think, is the most important message, and in turn, we need to love God and our neighbors. I think there is, I think that just wraps up the whole gospel message, the whole biblical message, and I think if we can focus on that.

Then I think we would all be trying to dismantle this [00:28:00] white male God.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: And we'll all be trying to welcome everyone at the table, be excited to share our culture, our different cultures, our histories, the richness that comes into our food, like the type of food we eat in Korea. Some of it has been around for hundreds and thousands of years.

We've been eating it. It's been modified as things change and new things come, but this is a rich history and that goes with a lot of other cultures. So to really appreciate that, I think. loving each other. If we break bread, we won't have an enemy. We will love that person who is sitting with us across from us.

And, uh, so I think we need to break bread more often and just share the message of love. I think that is the most important thing.

Andrew Camp: No, I appreciate that word, yeah. Um, yeah, thank [00:29:00] you. And just some fun questions as we wrap up. So, what's one food you refuse to eat?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: Well, now I don't eat meat, so I guess that would be one. Gotcha. I stopped eating meat.

Andrew Camp: Okay. That's fair. Yeah. So I refuse to eat meat right now. Yeah. What's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: Um, I think any type of seafood I enjoy so much. So, um, I think in Korea, the last time we went, I went last summer, uh, we had a sushi meal, and.

It was just out of this world.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. Um, and then finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in if you knew you had one last meal to enjoy, what would it be? And so if you knew you had one last meal, do you know what might be on that table of yours?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: I [00:30:00] would eat Uh, probably sushi or kimbap, and, uh, I love persimmons and Korean melons and Korean, um, uh, pears.

So I would like that for my dessert.

Andrew Camp: Awesome.

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: Well, that would be my last meal.

Andrew Camp: Gotcha. Well, Grace, this has been so fun. I really enjoy this conversation. And if people want to learn more about your work and, um, under, understand, you know, racism, where can they find you and learn more about what you're doing?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: Yes, I'm on social media, all under Grace Ji-Sun Kim on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. So please follow me there. I'm posting, um, all the time, what I'm doing next and when I'm writing. So please follow me. And I also have a substat called Loving Life. I think it's Grace K. Kim. I couldn't put Grace Jisung Kim.

I made a mistake at the beginning, so I couldn't, but they can follow my substat on Loving [00:31:00] Life and they will get the events by upcoming. And I hope some of your listeners will be coming to some of my events around the U. S. and abroad, too.

Andrew Camp: Because you'll be at Theology Beer Camp, I saw, correct?

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: Yes, uh huh, I'll be there, and I'll be at different colleges and seminaries in the fall to speak.

So I'm really excited about that.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, I'll be at Theology Beer Camp as well, and really looking forward to the time. Oh,

Grace Ji-Sun Kim: okay, that'll be great to see you there. So thank you again, Grace, for joining

Andrew Camp: us. If you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or sharing it with others.

Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. Until next time, bye.