The Biggest Table

The Biggest Table - Episode 05 (Peter Englert)
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Peter Englert: [00:00:00] Welcome to the biggest table. I am not Andrew camp. My name is Peter Englert. I'm a friend of Andrew. I'll tell a little bit about myself later. But the reason that I am hosting this podcast is we wanted to do an episode where you get to know Andrew, because This is a great podcast. He loves faith, food, friends, family, all the F words there.

But, um, we just want to get it started. And so Andrew wouldn't have to introduce himself. I wanted to be a part of it. Just a little bit about me. I am an adult ministries pastor in Rochester, New York. I also host the podcast. It's the Why God Why podcast, and I'm also a co host on Hope on the Rise. So Andrew, without further ado, how does it feel to be on the other side side of the microphones?

Andrew Camp: It's great. It's a weird feeling. I've done other podcasts and been interviewed for other people's podcasts to beat. But to be interviewed for your own podcast, um, is interesting. It's, but I [00:01:00] think it will be fun and yeah, I'm excited to tell my story more.

Peter Englert: Well, before we jump into your story, why don't you just give everybody an intro?

Who is Andrew Camp?

Andrew Camp: Yeah. So no, I'm, I'm a former pastor. I'm a former chef. Um, and while those two things feel disparate to some people, I think they've actually been very similar to me. Um, which I think we'll dive into later, but, um, I'm married to Claire, who's a psychologist, and we have two daughters, Hazel and Hannah, both Peter and I are, um, girl dads.

Um, which has been fun to watch his journey of parenting. Um, and we currently live in Flagstaff, Arizona, which is if you're listening and aren't familiar with Flagstaff, Flagstaff is not Phoenix. We're at 7, 000 feet elevation surrounded by one of the largest Ponderosa pine forests. Um, and yeah, we love it because we love to be outside hiking and exploring and, um, just enjoying, uh, Flagstaff..

Peter Englert: [00:02:00] Before, before we get too serious in your story, um, which is a great intro, I, I want to just ask you some fast questions. Okay. So let's start with, let's start with this one. What's the best cut of beef?

Andrew Camp: It's not filet mignon. I'm not a big filet because I think fat equals flavor. And so with that, I'm, I'm a ribeye or a New York steak person. If I'm sharing a steak with my wife, Claire, like New York, because it's just an easier way to slice and share. A steak, but if I'm eating one by myself, um, a good, um, ribeye, um, is lovely, especially the cap around the end.

Um, you know, if you can get that perfect,

Peter Englert: what was the last meal? Um, and I'll be careful cause as a girl, dad, you might've had to make chicken nuggets. So what was the last like kind of formal or last, um, kind of chef oriented meal that you made? [00:03:00] And who is it for?

Andrew Camp: Who is it for? Um, the biggest one we did was for our anniversary, for Claire and I's anniversary, I made, um, roasted corn ravioli, um, homemade with the homemade pasta and corn, and then, um, served it with a like, um, sour cherry sauce.

Cause we have a cherry tree in our yard. Um, and then some crispy, uh, prosciutto and some arugula, um, and really all the flavors came together in a really good, fun way. And the girls loved the corn ravioli. Um, we didn't give them all the accoutrements and they did like the crispy prosciutto because it was like bacon.

Um, but no, it was just a fun way to celebrate our anniversary, but also then bring our girls into it a little bit. Continue to expose them to more than just chicken nuggets.

Peter Englert: Well, there you go. You're doing better than me. Uh, I got two more quick questions, then we'll probably [00:04:00] come back to a few more. Uh, if you could be on any, um, TV show that is on cooking, and it doesn't even have to be a game show, but you could just be on it, um, what TV show would it be and why?

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

What's popping into my head is I would love to do, um, the street food, food series with Netflix, just cause I love street food and other cultures. I love seeing, um, what the everyday person eats. Um, again, I think we'll get into this, but I've lived in China for, um, three years and I loved like the noodles, the, um, at night they had barbecue cart shock, shock, how I think that's how you pronounce it.

And so, um, enjoyed. So I'd love to explore the world of street food in other countries, um, and just [00:05:00] find those hidden gem stalls, uh, with really good food.

Peter Englert: All right. So here's the last one. Hopefully it's you've been doing great. You didn't even know these questions are coming. Um, if you could recommend a movie about food, not a documentary, it has to be like a movie.

If you could recommend a movie about food, what's the first one that comes to your mind?

Andrew Camp: Oh, that's easy. I, you know, as soon as you said movie, it's Babette's Feast. Um, it's um, yeah. Um, it's a hidden gem. A friend had told me about it while I was in seminary. Um, it's a, I think it was a late 80s foreign film based on a short story by Esau Denison of the same name.

And actually in this instance, the movie is actually far superior to the short story just because of the pictures. Um, you know, in the visualization of the story, but it's about a community, um, that's very rigid and fundamental in their, um, beliefs. [00:06:00] And but that is a former highly trained French chef who comes to this community.

Um, and what she does with food to transform the community is truly beautiful and is a picture of really what I love about food. Hmm.

Peter Englert: Hmm. Well, that's a good segue. Uh, Andrew, why don't you, uh, just tell us the story? So, really, your podcast is focused on faith and food and how it brings us together. Why don't you walk us through how those two areas of life have come together for you?

You know, when are you going to start back? Um, I think it's college and, uh, just let's go on a journey. I might interrupt you with some questions, but go at it, man.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. So it actually starts, as I think about my journey, it starts earlier because my family always ate breakfast and dinner together around the table.

So even, you know, in, when my sister started high school and she had a zero period at [00:07:00] Whatever that God awful time is at 7 a. m. My parents would still make sure we were all at the table at like 6, 6, 15 to have breakfast together. And then every evening, um, we would have dinner together. Uh, I was fortunate.

My mom was a stay at home. Mom loved to cook, loved to bake. Um, but the table was one of those central places and spaces, um, for our family. And it wasn't a lively table. I don't remember much conversations, um, but it was a stable, um, table. It was consistent. It provided me an anchor as I think back on to my own journey.

Growing up, I was always the adventurous eater of our family. So whenever we went to a restaurant, I never wanted to order off the kids menu. I always wanted to try something new. Whereas my sisters were more of the tried and true, like, well, they have chicken nuggets.

So we're going to get chicken nuggets or fettuccine Alfredo. And I'm like, Ooh, they have lobster pasta. Let's, can I try lobster today or crab or shrimp? And so when I, as I began to explore [00:08:00] food, I wanted, I just loved food and wanted to cook on my own and carry this, these traditions that my mom had given us, um, to begin with.

And so, so that's where it started. Um, but it really, this journey of sort of the integration of food and faith really began for me, um, in China of all places. Um, after I graduated from Biola university, I moved to China to serve as a youth pastor for missionary kids. For three years. , and it was in China that I began to notice as I sat with other, , missionaries that we just lingered at the table a lot.

, long after the meal had been finished, we still sat at the table. And even though couches and way more comfortable chairs were close by, we, we sat in these very uncomfortable dining room tables. And just lingered and I'm, I began to wonder like, okay, why, why, what is it about food that causes us to linger and why, why are we content at a [00:09:00] table?

Um, and so, yeah, I just began this journey. And as I read more, I came across a book from Eugene Peterson called living the resurrection. Um, and he, in one chapter, he's talking, he starts talking about food and meals and. In it, he has a sentence that like the disciples and the gospel writers are most fond of telling stories of Jesus around a table.

And it was at one of those sentences that just like light bulbs and everything went off in my head. And it has sent me on a journey of exploring food and faith, um, that I never expected but have loved, um, going through. And so, yeah, that's sort of the, the, the genesis of this story. , of how I began exploring this topic,

Peter Englert: I want to come back.

Um, that's probably a good place to start. Um, how did you get to China?

Andrew Camp: I did both undergrad and graduate work, [00:10:00] um, through Biola University. Um, but while in undergrad, I was a Bible major, um, and so everybody thought I had my life figured out because, you know, clearly you're, I'm closer to Jesus than other people for some strange reason.

Um, I had no idea what I wanted to do. And so I would always tell people, I'm like, I think, I don't know what I want to do, but I'm pretty sure God's not calling me to be a youth pastor or a missionary. And so then I'm attending the church I grew up in, which is EV Free fullerton. Um, and they had a longstanding relationship in China, um, had have an adopted people group there.

Um, since the mid nineties, I believe, um, and so I'm sitting there one actual Super Bowl Sunday and the missions pastor gets up and says, Hey, we need a team to go to China these dates, um, to do some VBS for a NGO that's in China that we're affiliated with. And I'm sitting there [00:11:00] and I remember I'm sitting midway in the sanctuary.

Um, I hear this audible go. Um, I'm not a guy that hears audible thoughts and words and promptings from the spirit a lot. But in this instance, it was as clear as day. And I don't remember anything else about the service, except that I needed to figure out a way to work against traffic, to get down to speak to the missions pastor.

Um, and so I said, Hey, I'm interested, you know, and the dates coincided with Biola's spring break. So it only missed. One week of class and all my professors were supportive of this idea and it ended up, my dad was leading the trip. Um, and so I went and said, Hey, I'll work with the, the youth. I'll work, do some stuff for the high schoolers or junior hires.

Um, and I absolutely just fell in love with China, uh, had been on other short term [00:12:00] trips to Mexico, one to Poland, and I'm like, yeah, I don't think missions work is for me. It's just not, you know, I enjoy traveling, but I'm not, this isn't who I think where God is calling me and China just was different. And so after those two weeks, um, people were like, Hey, if you want to come back for the summer, like come on back, we'll, we'll figure out what to do with you, but you know, there's, you can explore and just see what else is going on.

Um, and so, yeah, I spent two months in China and after those two months felt like, no, this is, I need to come back and I need to work with the youth here. They'd been looking for a youth pastor for the community and, uh, really just sensed this is what God had for me after for at least two years and ended up staying for three.

And so, yeah, China was a very rich, formative experience for me, just getting to know missionaries, getting to know, working with a community that was diverse of 15 different nationalities at least in every denomination [00:13:00] in between from, so in the youth group, we had everything from assemblies of God to very Dutch reformed.

Um, and normally, you know, if you're in America, those two don't mix, um, but there it, it worked beautifully and gave me this picture of what, what The church and the body can be when our differences aren't, where we don't have a choice, really, you know, like we, we have to be together and we have to love each other and figure out how to coexist and, and it just brought me a deeper appreciation for the diversity, um, of experience of, of the body from, you know, growing up very, white, evangelical, non charismatic, you know, to have, to grow to have a rich appreciation for Pentecostal and, um, assemblies of God theology and, and having a rich love of the Dutch Reformed and what they bring.

Um, and then all the while trying to walk this middle road that Where, you know, I don't upset too many people all the time, [00:14:00] um, and so, no, it just was a really rich, fun, um, growing experience for me.

Peter Englert: That's great. Let's, um, let's also back up a little bit. You, you explained a lot of the faith side of it. Um, uh, you know, this story reminds me when I, um, so I, I grew up with Assemblies of God.

I'm now in a non denominational church, so I, I understand what you're saying.

Let's um, let's kind of keep moving the story forward. So at some point you decided, uh, to leave China, uh, and then also you got married and then, you know, there, there's a little bit of a parallel of working in the food industry and working for a church, so bring us up to speed on that and, uh, just your background.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, so when I moved back, um, from China, it was to pursue my master's at Talbot and it's in spiritual formation and soul care and really wanted, uh, to understand my heart [00:15:00] more. Um, and again, a lot of this was formed by Eugene Peterson. I'm, I'm naturally live in my head. I love to read. I love the life, the thought life.

I love exploring good books and good theology, but knew I needed to get in touch more with my feelings and my heart. And that's what. The Institute for Spiritual Formation did for me, um, opened up my heart in new ways, um, to experience God's love. Simultaneously to going to my master's, I was living right next door to my grandpa and my grandpa figures important into this, um, because growing up, my grandpa didn't like kids.

Um, he, he, I don't know if he hated us, um, but he never really wanted us around. Um, and so, but he also loved really good food and good wine. And so when I got back, I'm living next door to him, literally like walking distance. And so I take a chance because my sister had done it. Um, and I say, Hey, grandpa, could I cook for a meal for you?

And he's like, sure. What do you want to [00:16:00] cook? And I'm like, I don't know. I'll figure it out. And he's like, great. Whatever you want to cook, I'll reimburse you for the ingredients and I'll provide the wine. Um, and I'm like, great, you know, like I'm a starving seminary student. Like I don't have a lot of money.

And so, um, I just start cooking for him and I forget what we first cooked for him. But one of the first dishes I believe I made for him was like a shrimp and a champagne beurre blanc sauce. Cause my grandpa loves champagne, you know, and a beurre blanc sauce is a very delicate French sauce of basically butter emulsified with a little wine, you know?

And so it's very, it breaks easily. It's not easy. You know, but I just start cooking and we start spending time at the table, um, and not just time, we spend hours, you know, and it's time where he just starts sharing about his journey and his life and his regrets and his loves. Um, and through that, we just, I, I see a different side to my grandpa than I ever saw.[00:17:00]

Um, while also learning to cook and, and loving to cook. And I'm like, Hey, I'm actually good at this. Like, okay, there's more to this. And, um, and it's in seminary. And again, ISF is opening up my heart in new ways to what God might have for me. And I'm like, okay, food, food keeps playing a role in this. And so I think I need to Go to culinary school while also doing seminary while also working part time Because I'm single at the time and it's like what if I don't do it now, when will I ever do it?

And so halfway through seminary, I decide to go to culinary school at Le Cordon Bleu in Pasadena And so yeah, it it begins to open these new horizons and through culinary school and through a birthday dinner at Pallet Food and Wine I I'd land a job at pallet food and wine, which was at the time, one of the best new restaurants and in the nation, um, drop out of culinary school because I figured, well, [00:18:00] why pay to go to culinary school when I can get on the job training?

Um, you know, and at the time my, my, when I started at pallet food and wine, I think I started at eight 50 an hour, um, in LA, you know, which that doesn't cover rent, um, let alone a culinary school bill. Um, but again, it was taking steps to. To explore where God might have me. Um, you know, and palate food and wine didn't work out just for various reasons.

And so I left palate. Started working at a Christian camp as a cook, um, which sounds weird, but they were, it was forest home, family Christian camp, and they were trying to do more from scratch cooking and do different things and make camp food, not just, you know, slop. And so we made mashed potatoes from real potatoes every night.

Um, I think, I think the first summer I was at. Forest home. I did like two tons of potatoes that were turned into mashed potatoes. So [00:19:00] like when people ask me like about mashed potatoes, I'm like, Oh, like I've cooked a lot of mashed potatoes in my life here, but when I do cook mashed potatoes and here's a little, you know, tidbit.

It's two pounds of potatoes and one pound of butter, period. Like it's, it's more butter than potatoes at times, just because the only way to take, make potatoes taste good is by adding lots and lots of butter. Um, but my girls love them as do most people, because again, it's potatoes with. It's a little potato with a lot of butter.

So, you know, uh, but yeah, so that's, that's sort of the, the rough shot of, you know, how I got there and then in the midst of this. All of a sudden, I am invited on a blind date, um, you know, by some friends who I hadn't talked to in two years. And so this is the summer of 2009. I'm wrapping up my first summer at Forest Home, um, and this, this couple I had known through Evie Free Fullerton, but [00:20:00] then the husband had also done the same master's program.

She Facebook messages me out of the blue. I haven't talked to him in two years. And she's like, Hey, Andrew, this is Jen Castillo. Like, are you interested in going on a blind date with my friend, Claire? She's in the, she's pursuing her doctorate in clinical psychology from Azusa Pacific University here. And she's also served as a missionary for two years in Mexico.

We think you guys might enjoy each other. And I'm like, sure, why not? What do I got to lose? You know? And so I say yes to this blind date, not knowing anything, not. Knowing what I'm getting myself into, but I'm like, okay, Dave and Jen Castillo. They're a great couple. It'd be great to reconnect with them.

They're great people. So the chances of Claire being a great person are, are high. So even if there's no romantic interest, like she's going to be a decent human being as well.

Peter Englert: Do you, do you think, did, did you have the thought though, that maybe she had like a clinical project [00:21:00] and like she was going to analyze you?

Cause I'm married to a mental health therapist and my dad always makes the joke, he's like, you're writing a paper about our family, you know?

Andrew Camp: Yeah, no, that's, that is the running joke. I, I didn't think that actually, it was more because I love the mind, you know, and want to marry somebody I can have robust conversations with.

I'm like, Ooh, this sounds intriguing. Cause we can actually talk about the human soul in, in deeper ways. Right. You know, and that we share this love of academics. I think I love academics more than she does, even though she has the higher degrees. Um, but it's been great because we can talk about faith and we can talk about what's impeding us and what's helping us and how, um, how do we want to help others?

Uh, so no, it's been actually really enjoyable for the most, for the most part, like any marriage, but we're, we're food factors into this. [00:22:00] Um, and why I want to mention the blind date. It's because my friends tell me to bring a, a dessert. And so as a chef, I can't just bring any dessert, right? Like I can't just bring box brownies, but nor can I play all my cards, you know, on the first day, right?

Cause then it's just downhill, like I got nothing left. And so I, initially I settled on a cheesecake, like a New York style cheesecake with fresh berries. Again, returning to China. In China, I actually baked a lot of cheesecakes. I became, you know, the students love my cheesecakes. Other people love my cheesecakes.

It was a way of me just to have fun and bake cheesecakes. Um, and so I was like, okay, I'll make a cheesecake. It's safe, it's easy. Um, I've done it a million times. And so the night before I was gonna bake the cheesecake. I'm actually down at my parents'. Um. Because I would stay the night at my parents before seminary classes and they had a carton of thrifties, um, chocolate malted crunch ice cream.

And I grew up on [00:23:00] thrifties ice cream in Southern California, where it was the 25 cent cylindrical cone of, um, goodness that we would walk down to and get. Um, and I'm eating this and I'm like, this would make a great cheesecake. Like, how could I make chocolate malted crunch into a cheesecake? And so all that night I'm like literally thinking about a cheesecake, you know, and I'm like, okay, I think I'm supposed to do this, like as weird as it all sounds.

And so I figure out how to get, you know, look up chocolate malted cheesecakes and figure out how to do that. And then I'm like, maybe I can incorporate whoppers into the crust and some on top. Maybe do like a chocolate Kahlua ganache on top as well. And I actually think I focused more on the cheesecake during my seminary classes the next day, um, than the actual classes.

I don't even remember what classes I was in. Um, and so I baked this cheesecake. And the date went well, obviously we're married now. [00:24:00] And, and it was such a delightful experience that day. And the next couple days I'm reflecting on this cheesecake, um, And I'm beginning to think about it, like, okay, I threw out a recipe, I, I didn't play it safe, I, I experimented, I, and I began to wonder is, as I approach this new relationship with Claire, like, am I supposed to throw out recipes and just give her me, not play it safe, let her see me, and, and if she rejects me, at least she was rejecting me and not a safe contained Andrew.

Um, which is how I've had generally approached relationships in the past. And so that cheesecake became more than a cheesecake, it became a metaphor of like, okay, I'm, I'm not going to play it safe. I'm going to let her see me. I'm going to let my true colors come out and [00:25:00] experiment and see what happens when, when I, when I throw out the recipes and just sort of try to create something new and fresh.

Um, You know, and so that it's again, it's weird, you know, how a cheesecake becomes a guiding metaphor, um, for me in this relationship to such the degree that our wedding party favors were chocolate malted balls, chocolate malt balls with the story of the cheesecake and the recipe for the cheesecake.

Peter Englert: Hold on, hold on one second.

Um. I'm assuming this, but for our listeners, did she like the cheesecake?

Andrew Camp: She loved the cheesecake.

Peter Englert: Okay. Did she, did she have a relationship with thrifties and ice cream and Whoppers too?

Andrew Camp: A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Not as much as me, you know, and she, she enjoyed it, but yeah, it wasn't as nostalgic for her as it was for me.

Um, but no, she really liked the cheesecake and, um, was like, Oh, man, this guy [00:26:00] can cook

Peter Englert: so let's, um, and we'll, we'll continue with the story. I think this is super powerful. I'm, I'm definitely enthralled by this story. You know, you and I talk on the phone. So just to see each other, um, is pretty powerful. But, you know, you almost talk about, you know, Making this cheesecake as if the voice of God spoke to you and and I guess as you reflect on like this pivotal situation, um, pivotal situation.

Don't don't tell your wife. I said that, uh, you know, maybe a pivotal moment, but what. Besides, like, be you, be who God made you, what were some other spiritual significance about this moment and this cheesecake and this double date, because it sounds like God was doing something pretty radical in your life.

Andrew Camp: That's a great question. No, it was a very deep spiritual [00:27:00] experience, and I think

for me, and I think it had started prior, but it was God, a lot of the food journey for me has been about God seeing my heart and my passion and saying, enjoy, like, um, I see it, enter into it, you know, and let's, let's explore it and see what comes. Um, it hasn't always been easy. It hasn't always been quote unquote, enjoyable.

Um, but as I reflect on it in a more holistic way, not just about the cheesecake,

food has become an arena in which I delight in God and I feel God's delight in me. Um, and I [00:28:00] feel the most, I feel confident, I feel like, oh, this is who, in some small ways, maybe not in small ways, in some way, like this is who God created me to be, you know? And, um, as I'm talking, I'm reminded of like Eric Littles.

When he's running, you know, that he just feels, I'm going to butcher it now, but like, um, that he just feels the pleasure of God when he runs. And for me, when I'm cooking and in the kitchen, um, there are instances where it's like, this, this is good and this is right. Um, and so, yeah, I think that's, it's been a.

a way for me to experience God's delight in me in ways that I don't often get.

Peter Englert: That's super powerful. Let's hold on to that thought because you still got [00:29:00] more to the story. But, um, I think that that, you know, listeners, uh, as you listen to Andrew's podcast, you need to remember what he just said there about the intersection of faith.

About God delighting and, you know, I just leave you with this question, you know, as a listener. What is that for you? So, but Andrew, so you marry Claire, um, you're, I think last we left off professionally, you were making two tons of potatoes, uh, uh, you know, and, uh, two tons of potatoes per summer or whatever.

Can't wait to try your mashed potatoes. Thank you for the tip, you know, butter and potatoes, you know, 50 50, but, uh, take us from there.

Andrew Camp: With Claire finishing her degree, her last year of the degree is this nationwide internship matching program. Um, and you know, we're in Southern California, neither of us like Southern California, neither of us like the concrete jungle, the sitting in traffic, the Lots [00:30:00] and lots of people.

So we're like, we don't have kids. We're like, we're at this perfect stage. We're like, let's, let's explore. And so as she's thinking of where to apply, I told her, okay, the only criteria I need met for me is that I need to be able to find a job cooking that is of interest to me. Um, you know, and I said, that can be Southern barbecue.

That can be regional cuisine, you know, or it can be fine dining. Like I'm not. Stuck in this, it has to be fine dining and it has to be this Mecca, right? Like I'm open to exploring whatever. And so she applies all over the nation from Vermont to Washington, to Louisiana, to Evanston, Wyoming. Um, which is not a food Mecca, but was an hour away from Park City, Utah.

Um, which is a huge skiing resort town with lots of restaurants. And so that became her top choice and she got matched to her top choice. And so. We find out we're moving to park city, Utah. And so [00:31:00] I began exploring different areas and restaurants and seeing what's available even before we move and actually make contact with a few chefs.

And, um, one in particular that I thought I would work for and that never panned out, um, but ended up working at silver restaurant, which was on main street in downtown park city and, um, really loved that restaurant and went in as a novice. Line cook, you know, I did banquets at this Christian camp, and so now I'm working on the line, which is a very different beast than banquet cooking, um, and they didn't think I could do it, um, but eventually I figure it out, um, and within two years, I'm promoted to sous chef, which means I, under the executive chef, I'm basically second in command, um, and helping run the kitchen and helping run the line.

And Ordering food and directing the team on certain nights and, [00:32:00] um, again, working a line is exhilarating and it can be frustrating and because you're, you're around, it's 120 degrees on the line on a good day, um, just because you're around the ovens and the stoves all the time and you're moving and, um, but to see a team come together is beautiful and to celebrate afterwards and to Enjoy that camaraderie that exists in the kitchen, um, was super fun.

And, but at the same time, I'm cooking professionally was never the end goal for me being in pursuing this food and faith idea. It was, it was the means to an end. It was me to learn more about food and to gain confidence cooking and to explore flavors and nuances and creating. And so I'm slowly becoming like, okay, this isn't the life we want.

Um, you know. For instance, at my last winter there being sous chef, I would kiss my [00:33:00] wife, I would kiss Claire goodnight on Monday night. And then I wouldn't see her awake until Saturday morning when I rolled out of bed at about 10, you know, after having worked until midnight the night before. And so again, that's just not the life we hoped for.

Um, certain people can make it work, but it wasn't what we wanted. And I'm working every day that people are I'm working so other people can have fun and not having the community that, um, we want. And so I began thinking, maybe it's time to return to ministry and return to the church and help others experience more of what I've been experiencing these past, um, few years.

Um, but it was just striking out on finding a job. In May of 2015, silver was sold out from under us. And all of a sudden I find myself unemployed. You know, like sold out from under us, meaning like this executive chef went to the restaurant one day and the locks had been changed. Um, and so the next [00:34:00] day, like we're over there packing up the restaurant and I did, you know, my severance was some really good bottles of whiskey, which, you know, made up for a little of the, of the hurt and the pain.

But in this instance, all of a sudden I find myself without a job. Um, I was offered other numerous cooking jobs and just didn't feel like it was right to step back into. And so with. Where Claire was professionally and being fully licensed and making money, I was like, what about becoming an unpaid intern at the church we were working at, just to gain some experience.

And so I became an unpaid intern at Mountain Life Church in Park City, which we'd been attending for a few years since moving there. And I knew there was no job, but I knew the executive pastor really well. And I said, I just need experience. I need. To get my foot in the door someplace. And he says, great, like we'll help you, we'll do whatever we can.

And so, yeah, started working there and work my way into a job, you know, and which was great [00:35:00] because we had started developing community with other people. And we found out Claire was pregnant. We're like, we don't really want to move and start all over again, right. When we're having a newborn baby. And so everything turned out well, where we, I stepped into this role a couple of months before Hazel was born and, um, you know, stayed at park city for, for five years, working full time.

And it was, you know, trying experience. Cause we did COVID through, you know, in park city and birth of our two girls. Trying to figure out what ministry was like, started a Latino ministry with some other couples and, um, really wrestled through what is ministry. And then, you know, felt like the time was coming where is, okay, is this where we really want to raise our girls?

You know, Park City has some really great things about it, but also some not so great things. Um, And so we just started looking for other opportunities for me and came across a church in [00:36:00] Flagstaff, which we never thought Arizona would be on the table because we affiliated in Arizona with desert. And we like the mountains.

Claire was like, I want to move someplace green. That was her number one request. Um, and so she was like, okay, you can. I showed her some pictures and she's like, okay, you can pursue it. And eventually they fly us out. And Claire, I remember Claire telling me she's as the planes landing in Flagstaff and a really small airport, she just sees the green all around her.

And she's like, okay, maybe we can make this work, you know, and taking a step off the plane and, you know, smelling that. You know, the pine, you know, um, and so, yeah, we ended up in, in Flagstaff and that didn't quite go as planned either. Um, you know, and I'm currently in a in between season where I'm not quite sure what's next, but.

Sort of provided me the time and the space to start this podcast and to explore a new and a fresh, this, this deep passion. And [00:37:00] it's like, okay, like nothing else has been opening up safe for this continual push towards food and faith. And so again, Claire's at a space where her private practice is doing well enough, where it's like, it's afforded us some flexibility for me to.

to try some things. And so here, here I am again, once again, I feel like I'm stepping out in faith, you know, into this dark abyss where I don't know what it's going to happen. Um,

again, it's brought a sense of joy. Um, and And delight and think I've, people have been responsive and you're like, okay, maybe I found a niche here that's worth continuing to pursue. And, um, yeah, so that's sort of again, where we're at.

Peter Englert: So we're going to come back to food in a little bit, but I, I kind of want to go to faith.

Um, I think one of the knocks on pastors is they're not [00:38:00] authentic and real enough. And, um, I've heard a few of your podcasts here. Fairly authentic and real transparent, which is a good thing. But let me ask you this. So on my podcast, a person that's had a huge influence on my life, his name's Ron Hall, he was my professor.

Um, he actually got paralyzed in a surfing accident and, um. You know, so he, he and I just talked and we just had an episode and we talked about the four seasons of spirituality. The first season is, uh, life is good, God feels near. The second season is, life is good, God feels far. The third season, life is hard, God feels near.

And the fourth season is, life is hard and God feels far. Today, um, I, I'm on the East Coast, you're on the West Coast, we'll touch more on that later. Which one of those seasons resonates? You

Andrew Camp: know, life is hard and God feels far, [00:39:00] um, and, and I think that's for both Claire and I, um, during this season of just wrestling and having this idea and this belief that's not always accurate, but that if I do certain things, life is going to line up for me pretty well, right? Like, you know, making the right decisions, making sound informed decisions, making, um, You know, not being careless, you know, pursuing degrees will lead to the right job will lead to the right life.

And that's just not what it's been like for, for us in this season. Um, And so, yeah, it's been a hard season of knowing, okay, where, where is God and what is God up to, because we can't do anything. Finding a job has been more difficult than I thought it would be. Um, being home, you know, um, [00:40:00] while it has its perks has also been hard and challenging.

Um, and so I, yeah, it's just sort of, okay, God, what are you up to? And, and do you still see me? Um, you know, and even though I feel delight in this podcast, like there are other times where it's like, okay, what, why doesn't any of this make sense? Um, and so, yeah, it's, it's been a harder. season in which God hasn't felt it close.

Peter Englert: You know, tell us, I think this is gonna be helpful for our listeners, so we don't slap cliches on, uh, tell us about, like, your prayer life and reading the Bible, you know, just be honest, but also, um, you know, just kind of, maybe there's glimpses of where God is, but I think it'd be helpful for our listeners, like, where are you at in all of those practices?

Andrew Camp: Yeah, there. I wish I could say I excel at those [00:41:00] practices, but I don't. Bible reading has been one of the hardest things for me, um, since I was a kid. Um, you know, all, growing up in the evangelical world of like, read your Bible and pray every day, um, just was always a hard pill for me to swallow. Um, and then studying scripture academically just didn't probably help.

Um, but what has helped sometimes is art. Apps, you know, I've enjoyed the Lectio 365 app of just listening, um, and being guided in prayer or, um, the pause app by John Eldredge, um, of just somebody else praying for me and doing and inviting me, um, has been helpful at times, um, just because[00:42:00]

as much as I know about scripture and as much as I've helped others, I need the help at times. Sometimes I need somebody else just to pray. and give me the words to pray. Um, and so, yeah, those, those have been the most helpful.

Peter Englert: If you were to describe this season as a food dish or a recipe, how would you describe it to our listeners?

Andrew Camp: What

comes to mind, and I don't use it lightly, because a couple of times we've done a Passover Seder, and during a Passover Seder you eat the bitter herbs, um, as a reminder I believe of just the bitterness of slavery and the hardship. And so like the idea of bitterness comes to mind, um, in a way. Um,[00:43:00]

but not fully bitter because there's still some sweetness, you know, and being able to cook more or be able to be at home more with our girls or, you know, this past Monday we made Chinese wontons, you know, um, together from scratch, you know, and just trying to help them enjoy food more and get them cooking more.

Um, and so those are, those are some sweet. Times, you know, and then after dinner, we drove to this house nearby that does the big Christmas light show and just sat in our car for 30 minutes, just listening, and then our girls got out at one point and started dancing to the music too. Um, so, you know, I don't know if there's a dish, but if the flavors were there, it would be a bitterness with.

With some [00:44:00] strong hints of, of sweetness, um, mixed in.

Peter Englert: You know, it's interesting about that, uh, you're not the only one that loves Eugene Peterson. And, um, you know, God must have a little sense of humor, cause I'm reading the book, Eat His Book Again. Um, yeah. And in the first two chapters, he quotes Revelation, and, um, the Apostle John talks about, I ate the scroll that tasted sweet, but was bitter in my stomach.

How do you, how, based on what you just said, which was so beautiful, and I, I hope your listeners are hearing, like, you're not just, Throwing out the Christian cliches, like you're in the middle of a really hard season trying to find God and just like all of us, whether we're a pastor or not. But as you kind of think of what Eugene Peterson said and what the Apostle John says in Revelation, how does that hit you about [00:45:00] eat this book, eat it, eat it so that, you know, it tastes like honey, but it's bitter in your stomach.

Andrew Camp: I think it's the not so subtle, but hard reminder.

That the spiritual life's not easy, like it's not, it's not a simple equation, it's not a do more, try harder, um, type of life, it's not, I read a lot of Andrew Root, you know, um, in his ministry in the secular age and finishing up his last book and, you know, he, in his last book he talks about a lot of heroic action and inner genius and how they're the two defining moments of our, of our culture.

Um, and how often the church wants inner genius or heroic action instead of confession and surrender. [00:46:00] Um, and so

it's It's that reminder that no matter what I try, no matter how hard I go at it, I have to be willing to receive and be open. And at times I don't want to. At times I want. I wish there was enough power within me to fix it. I wish I could make it easy for our family. I wish when my daughter asked me why I don't go to Christchurch anymore, like, you know, she wants me at Christchurch, that I wish I could tell her.

Yes, let's go back to Christchurch and everything will be fine, but that's not where we're at right now. There's still Healing that needs to happen For me, but I wish that wasn't the case and yet here we are And so as I'm talking the table is full of delight But there's also at times flavors we need [00:47:00] to experience to stretch us You know and to be open to the new and the different not just for the new and the difference sake, but to receive something different.

Like I don't ask my girls to eat asparagus and broccoli, you know, and try new foods because it's good for them. But I want them to know something more to life than, than chicken nuggets, then Kraft Mac and cheese, then DiGiorno pizza. Um, I want them. You know, I want them to taste and see that the Lord is good, um, in multiple ways and good and very, and not just in, in the ice cream way, you know, but good in, in the bitter way too, you know, that there are, you know, the Chinese have this dish that's, it's a bitter squash and it is bitter, but they eat it because it needs to be juxtaposed with other [00:48:00] flavors and it's that harmony and the balance of Chinese cooking.

Um, yeah. And I think we need to remember that, too, and I need to remember that, too, in my own spiritual life, of the bitterness, um, that is real, and I don't like it, and I don't, and I want it to end quickly, but it's there.

Peter Englert: I want to go back to your grandpa, just for a second, um, because you've talked a lot about food being bitter, and I don't want to read too much in, but You know, it sounds like before that moment that you lived next door to him, you didn't really have a relationship.

And I guess as we kind of talk about bigger tables, I think the hesitancy is, am I going to be stuck at a table with someone that I don't want to be with? And so. I'm curious about how you stepped into that table, um, and [00:49:00] maybe what the relationship was like, but how the table changed that relationship.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, um, I stepped into it with fear and trepidation, not knowing. Um, because again, my grandpa at times wasn't a nice person, but I also wanted to cook and I, and I was fresh from back from China and I was lonely and I was struggling. And so again, it was taking a chance and taking a risk, um, and not knowing what to expect, but.

But also knowing my sister had had a good experience with it. So hopeful too, that maybe there's something here that I can glean. Um, but sitting at the table, I saw a different side of my grandpa than I ever had seen before, um, where the rough edges went [00:50:00] away. Um, the grumpiness went away. He still had some weird thoughts and ideas, but that's fine.

Like, you know, he's not perfect. Um, but I saw a man. Who had done a lot in life, but also regretted not loving more, um, and wishing he had done better, wishing he had done better to love my grandma, um, who had had a massive stroke when I was 12, um, and so, so yeah, like, I think we are worried that we're going to be stuck at a table with someone we don't like, but in that instance with my grandpa, I began to see a man who loved fiercely in a very different way than I think I would have thought, but who did the best he could given his childhood, which then helped my dad do the [00:51:00] best he could, which is now helping me do the best I could.

And hopefully it's a little better than the previous generation, but it just became this warm, warm place where we were. In each other's company and hear stories and to love each other, um, was beautiful to the point where, when, when he passed away, I, I was like, I need, I want to eulogize him. Like, I want to share, like, at his funeral because of, of what, of the transformation I saw and of the restored relationship, um, that developed because, We ate together and drank together.

Peter Englert: So I asked that question because I think kind of in your raw state, this is somewhere where you can be really helpful. Um, sometimes you go to the table because you need healing from somebody you [00:52:00] trust. And sometimes it takes a bunch of courage to go to a table to heal because it's someone that has hurt you.

And I think the issue is. If you're not in that seat, and I've been through similar, um, as you have, um, and people say things to try to be helpful and kind. Today, in the year of our Lord, uh, what is today? Is today December 6th that we're doing this? Um, 2023. You know, knowing that the table can be a healing place, but sometimes you need to be with someone that's going to shepherd and care for you.

Other times you need to be with someone that hurts, that has hurt you, uh, for that process to start. How do you navigate that? You know, what are some of the first thoughts that come to your head?

Andrew Camp: You ask good questions that are making me, [00:53:00] Peter's not letting me off the hook. Um, how do you navigate that? I, I think for me in this instance,

it takes time, you know, like I, I want there to be reconciliation and restored relationships with the hurt that we've experienced, um, but I'm not ready yet, and so right now I need friends and people who are safe and who can guide, um, and hold me, and, um, there will come a moment where I I won't be fully ready, but ready enough to step into

a, a table experience , for healing to occur in the re broken relationships.[00:54:00] I think in the Christian world, we want it to rush to make that happen without allowing the space for healing to take place where it can be fully received, um, on both sides. Um, and so, yeah, I, it just takes time.

Peter Englert: I really appreciate that. And I think it's kind of like the heart of this podcast because we can't, we can't always explain spiritual things as directly as we like. And food is this beautiful picture. Um, you know, uh, I'm probably going to butcher this, um, pun intended, but, uh, I'll let you clean up whatever mess I leave here.

But I've, I've never cooked a beef wellington, and I am absolutely scared out of my mind to cook a beef wellington. And that's a huge confession on this podcast, [00:55:00] but I think the fear is kind of what you're saying. It's I'm going to follow the directions absolutely right. And I'm going to make sure that the, the bread covering over it, that, you know, the meat, the sauce, but when I put that in the oven, I, I don't know when I cut it open, if it's going to be like so well done that I might have just put it on the fire without a grill cover, or if it's going to be so raw that I don't even know how to fix it if I have to microwave it or something like that, or Yep.

Or if the meat's perfect, but the bread's burned, like, you know, is, is that a good description kind of, of what you're feeling? I don't know. I just, that was a thought. Yeah,

Andrew Camp: no. And I think that's the beauty of food, um, and cooking and doing it together too. But, um, try as we might, it doesn't. [00:56:00] guarantee success.

Um, but that doesn't stop us from trying again or tweaking or learning. And somebody once told me like, um, like food is a great metaphor for like sin in the spiritual life because you're never going to hit the mark perfectly when you cook. Like there is no perfect dish. There's always room for improvement or tweaking or nuance.

And I think we want that perfect dish, but we can never do it. And so we just, When the dish fails and beef wellington is a expensive failure, you know, like it's, you know, in time, you know, I've never done a beef wellington either, but there's a lot of steps and you're buying a beef tenderloin, which isn't cheap, you know, and so the ingredients are expensive and it's a multi hour ordeal just to get it in the oven.

And so that's a, that's a costly [00:57:00] mistake, but. The next day you still have to get up and cook again and you still have to eat. Um, and even if it fails, you still have to feed people. And so maybe it's just ordering pizza and laughing at the mistake, you know, but I think that's. The beauty of food is that no matter how often we fail, we try again.

Peter Englert: Hmm.

Um, why don't we kind of close with this, um, few more questions? So I did a lot of food. Um, I did a lot of food questions in the beginning. I, I actually want to get some of your quick responses. I want, I want to take some theological or doctrine and um, I want you to picture it as food. I'm not going to ask the Trinity because that's really loaded.

And I don't want your Talbot or my Valley Forge or other professors [00:58:00] to come. But, um, let's start with this. Um, If there's a food that helps you describe the gospel, what would that be?

Andrew Camp: The gospel. That's just a loaded term in and of itself. Um,

The first food that came to my mind, and stick with me, is a strawberry. And I think, maybe it's because of the state I'm in, but each strawberry is so delicate that every strawberry has to be picked by hand. No machine can do it. And so, but a strawberry, Especially growing up in California. We had beautiful strawberries in the spring, right?

Like if you've never tasted a vine ripened, California strawberry, you've, you've missed out on something because a strawberry in that state is there's richness, there's sweetness, there's [00:59:00] texture, and it's, each one is unique. And I think that's the gospel in that, like

Jesus sees us in our state and is gentle enough to handle us with care. And so, yeah. Yeah.

Peter Englert: Grace.

Andrew Camp: Grace.

What about coffee? Let's, let's try coffee. Let's, you know, only because I, I love coffee and I love a good pour over and I love well roasted coffee, again, where, I mean, black coffee, um, where you taste the nuances and you taste the particularities of it, um. And yet the warm, comforting nature of a cup of coffee, especially in the morning or with a good [01:00:00] book, um, there's nothing quite like it.

So again, I, the particularities of, of a good coffee, maybe it's like Grace,

Peter Englert: you have my 100 percent support for coffee on that one, so, um, forgiveness.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Forgiveness, if there's a food that means like forgiveness,

I don't know if there's a food, but I think it's the, it's an experience. And I think I'm thinking of a story in which when Claire and I were first married, I'd had a rough day at work. I think, um, this was when one of my nephews was having some major health issues. And I go home and I cook some chicken legs on the grill, except they were still raw in the middle.

And I like, you know, I had a rough day. I was on my wits end and I serve raw chicken to [01:01:00] Claire and I'm like. I lose it and I just can't handle it. And yet in that instance, she lovingly just, it's okay. We can microwave it. We'll figure it out. It's not the end of the world. And so maybe it's not a food, but maybe it's that experience when you do completely fail at cooking.

And yet you still find love from the other person,

joy,

joy,

I think it's a,

I'm going to say tomatoes and stick with me again here. Cause again, this is when I was working at forest home, I would drive past this tomato stand and during summer they had heirloom tomatoes and they had not just one or two, but they had the full. rainbow of of [01:02:00] tomatoes and up until this point I wasn't a tomato person but I would stop and get fresh heirloom tomatoes from this in different colors and Claire and I would just sample tomatoes and taste the different flavors and it was the joy of a perfectly ripe tomato.

It's hard to beat or any perfectly ripe vegetable you know like vegetable or fruit when you get that bite that you're like oh this is This is what an apple, like a honey crisp apple, should taste like, or this is a tomato, versus a store bought Roma tomato in the middle of January.

Peter Englert: Last one. Peace.

Andrew Camp: Peace.

I'm gonna do the cliché. I'm gonna say grilled cheese and tomato soup. Um, you know, and again, when we make tomato soup, we make it from scratch. And when I make a grilled cheese, Claire always mocks me because I take a half hour [01:03:00] to make a grilled cheese sandwich so that the bread's perfectly toasted. But our girls love it.

We love it. You know, and to sit down with a bowl of tomato soup and a grilled cheese sandwich

just feels comforting and peaceful.

Peter Englert: Wow. I, um, Andrew, this has been such an honor. And, uh, you know, I think that that's a great place to close. So why don't we kind of give the final, um, just kind of final remarks. So right now, I think you're on Apple podcast and YouTube. Um, but is there one last thing? Oh, Spotify too. Thank you. That's a great, that's a great podcast host right there.

Um, anything else that you want to, um, to add about this podcast?

Andrew Camp: No, it's just, it's a journey I'm on. And I just, I'm thankful for the [01:04:00] people who are, who are joining me on this journey to sort of see, and it's been fun to talk to the guests I've had and to hear their stories and, um, to just see where, where food and faith can lead us in different, as we explore what it means to follow Jesus.

Peter Englert: Well, um, I'm going to say this because it's recorded. You're definitely going to have to post this one at the top. I think people are going to want to listen to hear you before they listen to the other episodes. But this has been a joy and a sacred privilege to just, um, this is just me and you having coffee with hundreds of listeners.

How does that sound?

Andrew Camp: Perfect. I love it. I appreciate you. No, I really appreciate you, Peter, reaching out and suggesting this and taking your time to do this for me. So no, I. Really appreciate it.

Peter Englert: Thank you so much, uh, Andrew. And, uh, thank you to all you listeners. One of the best things you can do, and I can say this because I'm not a host on this podcast.

You're not only going to want to listen to this, you're going to want to share it, review it, uh, share it on [01:05:00] social media, text it to your friends. And we are so glad that you joined us at The Biggest Table.