The Biggest Table

Episode 36 (Sarah Westfall)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of the biggest table. I am your host, Andrew camp. And in this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.

Today I'm joined by Sarah Westfall.

Sarah is a writer, speaker, and host of the human together podcast. Her book, The Way of Belonging, Reimagining Who We Are and How We Relate, is a spiritual narrative that invites us to put down the exhausting search for acceptance and approach belonging as a way of being, a divine welcome that is already ours to embrace and to extend right where we are. Her previous work includes serving as director of community for online writing groups and as a student development professional on college campuses. Sarah lives in Indiana with her husband, Ben, and four sons.

So thanks for joining me today, Sarah, it's great to connect.

Sarah Westfall: Yeah, Andrew, it's so good to be here with you.

Andrew Camp: No, and really enjoyed your book on the way of belonging. And when I saw it was coming out from IVP, I was just excited, just [00:01:00] thinking through hospitality and belonging.

Um, so I'm excited to explore these themes, um, with you and, um, how it relates to the table.

Sarah Westfall: Yeah, absolutely. I know when you're in your intro and you were talking about hospitality and food. I'm like, oh you're speaking my language right now

Andrew Camp: Awesome. Um, so and as we get started, I'm just curious for myself and for our listeners Like what's your story of belonging and how did this that story inform how you wrote this book?

Sarah Westfall: Yeah, you know, I think belonging is, is a question that I have carried within my person for a really long time. Um, I was actually just over the weekend at my mom's house, looking back through some old, old photos, helping her sort through these boxes of photos. And there were, um, there's a series of them from when I was like, probably six or seven.

Um, we grew up in, on a street in which, um, all the neighbor, neighborhood kids were out. [00:02:00] Um, we would, our, our, Backyard was kind of all an extension of each other's backyards. And I think back to that time, it was probably the time when belonging felt the least complicated, um, in my life, because if you. You know, you felt lonely.

You just kind of went next door and knocked on, you know, Emily's door and said, Hey, you want to come out and play? If she said no, you just went to the next door and kind of kept going. You didn't think too much about it, or at least I didn't.

But as I moved into the school age years, especially in later elementary, Um, middle school, especially in high school as these questions of, of who am I of identity of, of wanting to fit in began to, to surface and you kind of collect relational wounds along the way.

Um, those things kind of compiled and, and belonging then became much more [00:03:00] complicated for me. And I began to, to ask the question or to seek out the answer to that question of how do I belong? Where do I, where do I fit in? Um, really through acceptance. And. And through achievement, um, I traded the spotlight for like the few moments in the spotlight for, for really being known, um, being seen as not the same as being known, um, and so for me, it's, it's been a long journey of this question that I have carried and.

And finding different ways to answer it and, and, um, to reshape my approach to belonging over the last, especially over the last decade, I feel like that. The way that I have pursued belonging has shifted from when I was was younger, [00:04:00] um, and I'll be honest. It's a question. I still carry because I continue to grow and change as a human and my relationships and places and people continue to shift.

And so, um, it's a question. I'll continue to explore as well.

Andrew Camp: No, I love that. Yeah, because In some ways we want to arrive at belonging and just find that safety and security. But if we're honest because of the mobility of today's society, a friend is here one moment and gone the next. Um, and so belonging I think is always shifting and given stages of life and, you know, from kids to marriage to empty nesting.

You know, it's always a work in progress.

Sarah Westfall: It is. And I think of it even in the context of my most intimate and trust filled relationships, like my own husband, my sense of belonging, even with him, [00:05:00] the person with whom I can be the most myself. With whom I feel the most at home, it can still shift based on where we are in, in our marriage or where we are as individuals.

And so many factors play into that. Um, and I think one of the, the graces that I have discovered along the way is a letting it shift. Like you said, not thinking of it as this like concrete place of arrival, but as this thing that kind of ebbs and flows and we can let it. You know, and just acknowledge that, um, that there's, there's pliability in it.

Andrew Camp: I love that word, that pliability of belonging.

And you mentioned, excuse me, sort of in the beginning of your book that your quest for belonging sort of shifted as the question shifted, you changed your question from what does it look like to belong to how can I be a place of welcome? [00:06:00] And so what, what's that shift and why is that shift important as we think about belonging.

Sarah Westfall: Yeah. You know, I think the question, especially back in my, my teens and in my twenties, I think when I was asking the question of, of where to bo where do I belong? I was really asking the question, , who am I? And am I loved?

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Sarah Westfall: And. And that question is, is not exactly the same as, as my belong, or it is, it's related to belonging because this is question of, of who am I, am I, am I wanted here?

Am I welcomed here? Um, in this space and. And for me, the shift came because I think that's still an important question. I think it still matters. Um, our relationships with other people and the places where we ourselves are, feel welcomed and invited, [00:07:00] um, that are safe, that. Invite us to be whole and, and known.

But I think that's only like part of the equation when it comes to belonging. Um, I read Henry Nowen's book, the return of the prodigal son, and I was so familiar with that story, having, having grown up in church, um, you know. Most of us identified maybe with one son or the other. I was the older brother personally.

Um, cause I am an oldest, I'm a high achiever. I kind of allowed my worth and my work to get wrapped up in each other. Um, and so it was really easy for me to see myself, um, in that story. But what Henry Nowen did in that book that kind of shifted the question of belonging for me was that. He said, while we might see ourselves in one son or the other, what God continually invites us into and what he demonstrates, kind of as the father figure in that [00:08:00] story, is this abundance of welcome.

And so the invitation then to us is not only to come home to the father, to, to say, I am already loved. This is who I am. But then to allow us to continue to be formed into people who extend that same welcome, that same sense of home in the world. Um, and I think that is the continuing invitation to us.

And for me, it really helped me to stop caving in on myself in these moments when I felt like I just didn't fit. And I got really self focused in that, um, or I wanted to pull back from people from places from relationships and instead by shifting my focus to how I can step into a room and extend welcome, honestly has been so much more freeing.

It's like an exhale of I'm not just waiting around for. People to [00:09:00] want me that I can then be a the kind of person who extends that welcome, um, and so it there's definitely, you know, long term in relationships. There has to be that reciprocity. In order for trust to grow over time, but, but I think that for me, just that shift of allowing myself to, to become the kind of person that extends welcome, you know, when I go to the grocery store or when I'm at the kid's school, um, And to have that change of focus has helped me not feel like I carry so much lack when I walk into a room.

Andrew Camp: Interesting. Yeah. Um, but in order to do that, that's, that's a hard work that we have to internalize, you know, God's welcome towards us that. Even if we identify as the elder brother, the father, as you point out and helped me understand, you know, [00:10:00] the father still Searches for the elder son. He's not just searching for the younger son He goes out and searches for the elder son And so,

you know, and you also in your book are clear that this isn't a five step program to becoming a person of belonging You know, but but there are postures we can take and so how do we begin to internalize that welcome of Jesus? That then helps us to be A welcoming presence.

Sarah Westfall: Yeah. You know, it's funny. I think when we think about belonging, we often think of our external relationships with other people.

And that's, that's certainly part of the equation, but when, when it, we think about embracing this posture of welcome in the world and, and becoming more settled in who. Who we are with God in our day-to-day lives, um, that is largely internal. Mm-hmm . That is internal work. . Yeah. And being able [00:11:00] to step back from the, the very hectic nature of our everyday lives and, and pay attention to our internal landscape of paying attention to, um, what is happening within us and being able to know and to name those things.

And so. You know, I think you alluded to this earlier that there is a lot of internal work that continues to happen, um, as we pursue belonging in our day to day lives. And so, for me, that looks like needing to carve out some time for reflection. Now, some days that's like five minutes. It's not, it's not necessarily super, um, long and extensive and intense.

Um, and sometimes it's just like the nature of, of, you know, how, when you are, um, like shopping for a new car or a new home, [00:12:00] suddenly. You begin to see the, that particular brand of car everywhere and you're like looking and you're noticing. I think the same is true of when we are trying to, um, pay attention to our internal landscapes.

The more that we begin to pay attention, the more that it kind of becomes more natural or our, our, um, you know, we're like those feelers are out. Um, so we be, it becomes more natural as we go, even if it feels kind of awkward at first. Um, so it becomes part of more of just. The cadence of our days and how we view the world.

Um, and so this, this posture of embracing the God who, who comes after us again and again and again, who invites us for, uh, CS Lewis says farther up and further in, um, I think it does begin with seeing ourselves the way that God sees us. And [00:13:00] for me, that is a continual work because I will continue to default to, um, false versions of myself.

I will continue to, um, not want to see certain aspects of who I am. Yeah. Um, I will want to, you know, hide from those things. Humans have been hiding since the very beginning.

Andrew Camp: Right. Yes.

Sarah Westfall: And so we continue to do that, um, even try from ourselves sometimes, let alone God and each other. And so this is continual work is continuing to, to take a look at what is happening within us.

Do we really believe we are loved fully, wholly where we are from the father who comes to find us. Um, and not in a shame inducing way. But in a way that let's, let's name what is really happening within us. Let's really name, um, [00:14:00] who we think God is and, and who, what, like the, the dialogue, the narrative that we believe, um, about ourselves and being honest about those things, maybe sometimes.

Like, that's our own work. Maybe sometimes that's alongside a spiritual director or a counselor or a trusted friend. Um, but then I think some of the other things, like once we are kind of knowing and naming what is happening within us, also knowing and naming the narratives that we have with the other people that we're interacting with, right.

Um, we all kind of have some defaults that we, we fall back into, um, people who are easier to get along with than others. You know, you find out a certain detail about someone and automatically there's, there can be assumptions that come with that. Um, And so being [00:15:00] people who pursue the wider story, who, who seek to, to understand and, um, and not lose sight of the humanity of one another in the process, um, and then naming that narrative that's happening within us, I think is really, really important in, in, in interacting with each other and becoming people who.

Who truly are welcoming to, to all. Um, cause I think we want, we want like, you know, if somebody would ask me like, Oh, are you a welcoming person? I want to say really quickly, flippantly, well, of course, like, yeah, I'm not going to be nasty to someone, but if I really take time to, to do some of the work, I begin to notice.

hesitations within myself, I began to notice, um, some preconceived ideas and stories that I've been telling about certain people. [00:16:00] And that in and of itself, again, is not a place of shame, but it's a, it's an invitation then for you to kind of lay it out before God and say, okay, what are we going to do with this?

You know? Um, and so, yeah, I think it really does begin with a lot of. Internal work

Andrew Camp: for sure.

Sarah Westfall: Um, and may not begin. Cause again, like you said, it's not a five step program. We might have to like do some internal work and then, um, begin to like reach out and, and develop trust and transparent relationships with people.

And then something might happen. And we're like, Oh, there's more internal work to do

Andrew Camp: for sure.

Sarah Westfall: It's a both and, but yeah,

Andrew Camp: no. And we can't wait for us to be settled in God's love before we try to extend it. Uh, but you, like you said, it's this testing and growing, like, you know, you grow and you put some feelers out there and see what's, what's working or not working.

And I don't even know if that's [00:17:00] the right language. Um, but you know, but yeah, like you said, it's, it's a growth process, the pliability of belonging.

Sarah Westfall: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: But there are also like, there's a lot of internal work that needs to happen, but there's societal pressures. Also that prevent belonging, like, you know, and I don't, I think I'm kept an obvious and saying that because we're, we're inundated with it.

We're coming up on, you know, so much news in the new year that's going to reinforce or make us not feel like we belong. And so like, as you thought about belonging, what were some of those societal issues that you're like, Hey, this. We need to wrestle through this on a bigger scale than just the internal work.

Sarah Westfall: Yeah,

you know, I think I mean There's just there. There are a lot of things that weigh heavily on me, especially when it comes to belonging [00:18:00] Because I think that we live in a moment where I won't say that we completely lack curiosity and imagination but I don't think it's As high of a priority, um, and when we lack curiosity and imagination for, for what things could be, um, or for what God promises will be, um, or even keeping sight of his original creation.

I'm keeping that in mind. It's, it's really easy for us to, to fall back into our corners. I mean, as human people, it's, it's really easy to kind of drift toward what is familiar. We're experiencing it right now a little bit. Our family is, um, trying to navigate where our, um, church community is locally. And as we're, [00:19:00] we're visiting some of these different, um, spiritual communities, these churches, um, We're processing with our kids and they're like, well, I don't, you know, I don't like it.

I don't feel like I belong here. And we're having to like unpack that language. Well, what do you mean? Is it because. You don't know anybody yet is because it's not familiar. Yeah. Um, and, and that's a huge part of it. You know, we, we tend to gravitate, gravitate toward what is familiar and what is known.

Yeah. Um, what is comfortable and, but in the process, um, it becomes much more difficult to be curious. Yeah. To listen, to realize there are people who have experiences far different from our own. And without curiosity, we're not going to understand how they arrived at a certain conclusion based on the experiences that they've had.

Um. And so, you [00:20:00] know, when I, when I think of belonging and when I think of being human together, I would love, even just for myself, I pray and I hope that we can be people who, who are quicker to curiosity about one another rather than to. Um, assumptions to, to bias. Um, I also recognize that there are some deep wounds.

Um, whether we're talking about the church, whether we're talking about political politics, whether we're talking about, um, you know, there's so many things that people have experienced serious wounds. Um, and so when it comes to belonging, I think part of that internal work, part of that work we have to do with each other is, is asking how can we move toward healing?

How can we move [00:21:00] toward tender, compassionate care for ourselves and for, uh, for each other? Um, and I just, yeah, I, I don't know how specific you want you want to get, but I just think in general, like those are some of the things that continue to kind of grieve me. Um, and I think the other thing, um, that I would love to see, and it's, there's not like a complete lack of this, but I think I, it is so easy even within myself.

Um, to be able to call out what is wrong, I want to have more of us beginning to reach for and look at a vision for what, for what could be. Um, and because we, we need people, we need people who are saying, Hey, these are the things that need fixed. [00:22:00] But I feel like we also equally need people who are saying, um, what if, you know, what, what could, what could it be?

How could, how, where do we go from here and in a pot, not necessarily just in like silver linings kind of way, but let's, let's get a vision beyond the. Maybe cynicism we have right

Andrew Camp: now. Yeah, no, and I love that because, you know, you and I were both raised in the evangelical culture where truth telling of our past wasn't always there per se.

And so we're in this moment where people, we're, we're having to reckon with the hurt, the pain. Um, and that's good, but like you said, we need to also then have, a lot of us feel stuck of like, okay, we, we see the truth and we don't like where we are, but we don't know what's [00:23:00] next. Um.

Sarah Westfall: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: You know, and I think that's where curiosity comes in.

Uh, because as I was reading, you know, your book and talk, you know, thinking through it, and you talk about the fundamental attribution error and how we're quick to paint a story of somebody, you know, like in a moment of honesty, like there's a person that we have a house on our street and the house always has these two huge trucks lifted, big tires, a few inappropriate bumper stickers, you know, and so I automatically have a picture of who those people are.

Without ever talking to them, without ever even saying hi to them yet. Um, and so that prevents me like from even engaging them, like. You know, in my mind, I know exactly who they are already, so I just don't need to engage, which is so not the gospel and not what we need.

Sarah Westfall: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: But, you know, and so it's just that we live in that tension of like, we see certain things and we're automatically attributing certain things [00:24:00] to those people without ever Inviting curiosity of ourselves of like, okay, who might that person be, um, and what might they be able to offer the community, you know, in, in wholesome ways that I'm preventing because I, I'm quick to, to attribute something that's probably not true to them.

Sarah Westfall: Right. And I have to too, in those moments, like remind myself, like they are equally loved by God and contain just as much of his image as I do. Right. And. And so, then being able to say, okay, well, what is that part of God that they reflect? What What might, um, what might I learn about God and about being human through that person?

And sometimes it is like if we get the opportunity to actually like, you know, in non weird ways, [00:25:00] get to know our neighbors and get to know more of their stories, um, and to begin to, to broaden. The story that we've been telling ourselves about a particular person and that's amazing But I think sometimes and this is where the imagination comes in It's it's even just giving ourselves permission for other possibilities Yeah of who they might be and and or what experiences might have shaped them Because what that does in us if anything is at least soften us Toward the humanity and one another it keeps us open.

It keeps us from putting up these walls around ourselves That that might make us feel comfortable and safe But they also keep people out

Andrew Camp: because studies have shown that when we silo and actually just homogenize our group of belonging We actually don't it doesn't foster belonging that belongings [00:26:00] fostered in In multiplicity and diversity, you know, in, in recognizing the uniqueness of, of that.

Sarah Westfall: Well, I think because what happens is when, when we have these silos and there are these like certain expectations or certain characteristics that are required in order to be part of that group, there, there builds up this anxiety. Within us because, oh my goodness, what if I begin to deviate from these norms?

Can I even say anything? Can I, can I speak it to anyone? Um, whatever that might be. And, and you're totally right. Like that's, that's not belonging. That's fitting in. That is acceptance. That is, um, very narrow. Um, you know, that's, that's like group think at its, at its worst and, and belonging is just much more [00:27:00] steady.

It's sturdier. It's so much more substantial than that. Um, and, and yes, it, it kind of has an ebb and flow, but I don't think there's a sense with belonging that the, the, the longer we, we walk this way of belonging and recognize that it's actually a way of being in the world, the more I'm finding that. Um, it's becoming more natural to, to be connected with that, that welcome that God has already placed within me as, um, as a human person, as a person who has, um, his image, his essence within me and.

It feels less shaken by external situations. Now I'm still human. Wombs still hurt. Um, I still [00:28:00] have certain people that I, I feel like there's a teenager in me still saying, can you please pick me? Can I please be one of the cool kids? Like, please notice me.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Sarah Westfall: Um, but there, there's also a growing steadiness that seems.

As I get older, a little less shakable than it used to be.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yeah. No, as you were talking about it, you know, and like the steadiness of belonging, like it's, when we silo, it feels more concrete and it feels more steady, but all of our energy is spent holding that together. Whereas, you know, when we approach life through this lens of belonging, it's grander, it's wider, it's more open space.

But it's much more sure, um, if we can root ourselves in this belonging of Jesus. Yeah. Um, [00:29:00] and it's scary, you know, cause we never know where these wide open spaces may, may lead us. Um, but like you said, there, there's a, a deeper foundation I think that, um, we can walk in. Um.

Sarah Westfall: Yeah. Well, it's almost like the, the difference between like silo, in a silo, I, I find myself eventually kind of holding my breath.

Whereas when belonging is, it has a much wider definition there, there's exhale there, there is like, okay, like I can do this. Um, and not that it doesn't come without cost sometimes, because there will remain groups, maybe family members, maybe friends, maybe even, even churches or other types of communities.

that really want to cling to a very [00:30:00] specific and narrow definition of what it what's required to be a part of it. Um, so there is grief in that. There is letting go in that when we choose to, to widen that definition of belonging and say, you know, I, I think It's bigger than that. And I think it's sturdier than that.

So it does, it's still complicated.

Andrew Camp: It is. No, right. It's very complicated and Because like you said there will still be hurt. This isn't just a great, you know, easy peasy lemon squeezy vision of life That's just you know further up and further to the right, right? But, you know, the deep soul work takes time, it takes energy, takes grief, and then when we extend ourselves to others, we're, you know, we're not to be doormats, but, and, you know, have good boundaries still and, you know, prevent harm from coming into our families or our circles of belonging.[00:31:00]

Um, but that will require hurt and grief as well.

Sarah Westfall: Right.

Andrew Camp: Or, you know, there will be grief when friends move away or, you know, belonging changes. Um, but that's the risk we have, I have to be willing to take. Um, but to shift this then, you know, cause belonging, there's a hospitality that is entwined with this.

And so as you've thought about belonging, like what has shifted for you for hospitality, as you practice hospitality and with four boys in chaos, I'm sure run reign supreme sometimes in your house. Like what does hospitality. Look like for your family.

Sarah Westfall: Yeah, you know, I think it first and foremost for me Does look like what does this look like for my four boys?

Like when they what do they experience within our home? And it is a lot of chaos. I'll say The first to admit that that's why I take a bubble bath every [00:32:00] night to kind of like, you know Get my nervous system to kind of calm down a little bit So it does begin with my boys of, of wanting them to experience the love and the welcome of God, um, here in our home.

Um, you know, I, we, we are not people who throw like lavish parties and, or have a lot of, um, You know, when, when we have people over, it's a lot of paper plates and a lot of pizza or tacos, whatever is, is easy. But when it comes to hospitality with people who live outside our home, um. You know, it's on one hand, my husband and I are both introverts.

And so it kind of is a struggle sometimes to, to invite people over, um, and to have them in. Um, but we also [00:33:00] deeply enjoy it when they're here and we try to keep, um, we have a lot of family nearby, so we do have a lot of family in and out of our house fairly often. I mean, my sister's going to be here in about an hour with her girls to go sledding on the back Hill.

So, um, So I think for us, it's, it's really just kind of inviting people to kind of just step into, you know, here, here's our home and here's our life and come join us for a little bit. Um, we apologize for the noise, we'll send the kids to the basement, you know, um, but just inviting them to be part of that.

Um, it has also looked like for me because I am an introvert and just the nature of having four kids are we try to keep a very slow paced life, but with four kids, it's like it takes a lot of effort to do that. Um, and so we try to keep our schedule with some margin and, [00:34:00] and so for me then my kind of regular point of connection with some of my, my friends locally, um, We, we do a supper club and so we meet together once a month.

Somebody brings two or three questions to the table. One person kind of plans the meal and says, okay, you bring a salad, you bring bread, that kind of thing. And, um, we gather together in that way. And you know, that's, it's, we're going on five years now together. And it's been one of those relationships and places that has.

It's like that, that equation of, um, trust plus transparency over time and just allowing it kind of like a T to just steep very slowly. Um, and as it has done, that has become so rich and substantial and a group of women that I know that I can, um, reach out to and text anytime. And so allowing [00:35:00] relationships to kind of develop in that way.

Um, the other thing that I've been thinking a lot about recently regarding hospitality, um, because I don't think belonging is fully dependent on place and people, but I've been asking myself the question of what does it look like though to be hospitable to the places and people right where I am? What does it look like?

What does it mean to have like that posture of hospitality? As I move throughout the world, that of wanting to, to invite in and to make people feel at home and at ease and. To, to share in moments together. Yeah. Um, and so I think for me, that's also comes with, uh, attentiveness of paying attention to and being able to both receive and to share, [00:36:00] um, in any given moment of life.

Um, and that kind of changes the nature then I go underneath that really holds hands for me with belonging, because I feel like the more that I do that. The more I do feel deeply connected to a place, the more I do feel deeply connected to the people who I see it just commonplace at the library or at the, at the gym or whatever it might be, um, belonging grows out of that, the sense of belonging grows out of that, I think,

Andrew Camp: um,

Sarah Westfall: yeah,

Andrew Camp: as you were talking, I just, I'd love Henry Nowen's definition of hospitality from reaching out, um, where he says that the Hospitality is the creation of a free space where the stranger can enter and become a friend instead of an enemy.

Hospitality is not to change people, but to offer them space where change can take place. Um, you know, and so as you were, as I was preparing for this, I [00:37:00] was reminded of that quote of like, okay, hospitality isn't confined to, to people in place, but it's this way of being in a world where Like you said, you can invite somebody in, uh, you know, and they can be, feel the freedom to be them.

And it's not about confining them and restricting them, but rather how do we allow them to flourish, uh, in the world.

Sarah Westfall: Yeah. I love that definition. I actually hadn't heard it before. You said it's from reaching out?

Andrew Camp: From reaching out. Yeah.

Sarah Westfall: Okay.

Andrew Camp: Um, it's one of my favorite Henry Nowen books just because of the hospitality aspect and

Sarah Westfall: yeah.

Andrew Camp: Um, yeah. You know, he has some great insight, uh,

Sarah Westfall: as he usually does as he, yes,

Andrew Camp: exactly. Yes. Um, how do we then, you know, cause hospitality, we usually think of hospitality as bringing people into our circles, but we're also invited into other people's circles. [00:38:00] And so how do we take that belonging as a guest into circles where we're invited into where it's not coercive.

Um, but we're not always the host, but we can be a guest. And so is there a difference or is there a nuance or is it all one in the same for you? Like, um,

Sarah Westfall: I think it all comes back for me continuing. To, to embrace that posture of welcome to, to ask the question of what does it look like to embody welcome here and now in this space?

And for me, because I am an introvert, um, it takes a little bit more like energy for me to, to step into somebody else's space. Um. Then it is to sometimes to invite people in or just to interact, um, right where I am. And so, you know, even, even today, Andrew, before I got on this podcast, something that I [00:39:00] have to do before I step into a new space or with a new person is that I have to just take a moment and say, God, help me be a person of welcome here.

Help me not to cave in on myself and to be so self consumed with what others are thinking of me. Help me to look outward, you know, to, to embody welcome even here. And it's not to say then I always do it really great and it, um, it pans out, but that moment of recognition before I enter a space that I've been invited into before I enter a space that maybe I'm a little nervous about, helps me to, to just have that, that moment of groundedness and, and remember, um, Who I am to remember who God is and to remember that that goes with me into the room.

Andrew Camp: Hmm. I really love that exercise of just taking that moment of like, you know, [00:40:00] before we enter a space, you know whether it's for the first time or the hundredth time of how can I be a Person of welcome. Um, you know, and how can I bring my true self into this? Um, cause like you said, you know, doing a podcast, like, you know, it's a weird thing, like we met just for the first time, you know, I've read your book, you know, so I know a little about you, but you know, nothing about me.

Um, you know, and, and I, I find myself wrestling with like, you know, as I think about the podcast and guests, like not treating people as a commodity, you know, that could further my, you know, platform, but like, okay, how can I generally be curious. Um, you know, and just enjoy the conversation for what it is. Um, yeah.

It's all intertwined in a mess and we're all just a work in progress,

Sarah Westfall: right? Well, that honesty is so key because you know we could turn being a person of welcome into just another thing to do like we have this vision in our head of what that might look like and [00:41:00] Having to be honest with ourselves of saying, okay, these are the things that are floating around within me This is what I see in my inner landscape here and Allowing ourselves when we, we, we take that pause and to say, like, help me to be this person of welcome.

Let it flow from a genuine place, not, not like a synthetic, like I'm going to have this shiny smile now and be real super like exuberant with whoever I talk, whatever that looks like, you know? Um, cause I think for me, my, my deepest prayer with all of this is that it, it would. You know, we call, we call the book The Way of Belonging because it is a way of being it embraces the specificity of who we are And what we bring into the world into the room and becoming more settled in those things, but then also it becomes a way of [00:42:00] Allowing that to move us closer to God and to each other and just Very, this word might be overused, but like organic, very, um, natural ways that it doesn't have to look one person.

Welcome might look different for you than it does for me.

Andrew Camp: No, for sure. Um, and I love that. And there will be seasons where we don't feel welcome or we feel lonely, where we feel betrayed. Um, you know, and so some people may be listening and have that, this way of belonging and it feels exciting. And. You know, like, okay, this is a new way of being, and I can do this, or I can take a small step today to be a better person of belonging, but like, there'll be other people listening who might be like, I, I'm stuck, you know, and it may not be, you know, if, if you're depressed, like, and there's clinical issues you need to face, face those, like, but I'm also talking about people that are just in a stage of life where [00:43:00] belonging just feels unattainable.

Like, what would you say to those people who feel unattainable? That immense sense of lack.

Sarah Westfall: Yeah. Two things. That come to mind for me is one when it comes especially to the longing, but really any of Any of our longings what I I want to take that sense of lack and let's reframe it Instead of seeing it as a personal deficiency What if we see it actually as a holy longing?

The desire to have people who know us and who we are connected with and who we trust and feel safe with. That is a good and holy longing because we are communal creatures. And that is something that is like a longing is supposed to lead us in a good direction, in a God [00:44:00] direction, you know, to step one step closer to home.

And so first let's like. Maybe use a different word instead of you're carrying lack you're carrying a longing. Hmm. Um, the other thing That comes to mind, um, and this is really personal to me, is the story of Hagar from Genesis 16, um, Hagar, we don't know a ton about her other than she was an Egyptian slave girl of, of Abraham.

She was badly treated by Abraham and Sarah and kind of. You know, tried to escape out into the desert, um, pregnant, alone, didn't really know where she was going. And in that moment of desperation when she felt like she belonged, didn't matter to anyone. God met her in that place. God met her in that [00:45:00] wilderness.

Um, and she named him Elroy, which means the God who sees me. And in that moment, um, I, I identify with her cause I've had these moments, not all the details of her story do I identify with, but I identify with that feeling of feeling like I am unseen and do not matter to anyone. And remembering that even there.

That the enoughness of God, the withness of God meets us in those moments and that we are seen intimately, fully like that matters. I mean, for me, it matters so much that I have that name of God tattooed on my arm because it's something I need to like be reminded of daily,

but I think as hard as it is and as horrible as it feels [00:46:00] in, in those wilderness, lonely, hurt, wounded moments. Um, the joy that I think the possibility that exists there is in finding that God is still enough and that he is still there, even if we don't feel it. Um, and my, my, I think my hope, my, my tentative prayer would just be that for somebody who finds themselves in that is, is to really cry out to God, um, and continue to tell him where you're at.

Um, I heard our, uh, pastor at a church that we were at a couple of weeks ago, I've just talked about the spiritual practice of, of prayer is so often just re is reaching out to God. This is continual reaching, like this is a huge. Faith thing that we can do, um, especially when, [00:47:00] when we feel more absence than presence.

Um, but I, I don't know, I trust in the faithfulness of God and in his timing. Um, and I don't want to say that in a like really sugar sugary kind of way, but from my own experience, when, when I have felt. Unseen, unheard, at the end of myself, um, I have found God to still be there.

Andrew Camp: That's beautiful because whether we're the prodigal son or the eldest son, whether we feel like we've messed everything up or always played by the rules and done everything right, like the father still comes looking.

Sarah Westfall: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And the Bible is just one story of God reaching out and looking for, for his people. Um, and seeing us in our distress, [00:48:00] like Hagar. So yeah, no, and it's not easy to be in those places, but to trust that maybe just maybe God still sees us and that's the only hope we can clean to like, okay, Lord, I believe help my unbelief.

Sarah Westfall: Right. Yeah, absolutely. And I, and I think too, it's like in those moments where I've, I've been like blatantly desperate before God. Um, I think that I've, those moments exhausted, but also, um, I begin to perceive even little things differently, um, that it may not be that something grand has changed in my situation, but I begin to perceive little things as these kindnesses from God.

Um, and I think those little things [00:49:00] Um, I think he hovers in those a lot more than we, we realized most days. Hmm.

Andrew Camp: I love that. Um, just, yeah. Remembering those little kindnesses that are shown that easy to miss. Um, but again, if, if we can begin to look for them, I think they're there. Yeah. And they can sustain us in those moments of, of pain or, um, sadness, um, where we are longing for, for a better way and trying to imagine, um, you know, What could be next?

Yeah. Um, and, and along those lines, it's a question I'd love to ask all of my guests. Um, and so it's sort of a great summary question, but what's the story you want the church to tell?

Sarah Westfall: I think[00:50:00]

the story that I would like the church to tell is probably pretty linked to the story that I wish I could probably go back and tell myself at a younger age. Um, so this may be, um, like projecting a lot of things, but. I wish I could go, I wish the church would, would say like, you know, you don't have to try so hard that you are loved just as you are and,

and who you are, your specificity, the way that you are designed within, you know, the intricate details of your life matter and that God is just inviting us to, to be with him and to be present. To live into the fullness of [00:51:00] who we are and yet be content with these really small, really beautiful little lives.

Yeah,

Andrew Camp: of that to be, yeah, to live into the fullness of God's love and to be content with our little lives. Yeah, I think

Sarah Westfall: one of the the messages that really I struggled with and it was linked to my belonging as well Was this idea like it's like this work to prove your worth Mm hmm mentality and this idea that in order to become more like Christ I needed to do big things That greatness had measurement, that greatness had outcomes, and it looked a particular way.

Yeah. Um, and I, I would love to see the church talking more about what, what this unseen faithfulness really looks like.

Andrew Camp: I love that. Appreciate that word. Yeah, and so [00:52:00] then some fun questions as we wrap up Centered around food. Yeah, what's one food you refuse to eat?

Sarah Westfall: Soda

Andrew Camp: soda

Sarah Westfall: or we call it pop around here in Indiana.

I am NOT. I am NOT a soda drinker Okay,

Andrew Camp: fair enough. Is it just soda or like do you do like bubbly water at times or is it?

Sarah Westfall: No, I, I drink like La Croix, like sparkling water, seltzer waters, all of that. I just, several years ago we did that darned whole

Andrew Camp: 30

Sarah Westfall: and ever since then I can't really stomach this stuff.

Once in a while I will have a Coke if I have a migraine because it's one of the few things that help kind of. With that, but otherwise I just, I can't, I can't do it anymore. It's too syrupy, too sweet. Interesting.

Andrew Camp: Yep. No, fair enough. Yeah. Then on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Sarah Westfall: Oh, goodness. [00:53:00] I feel like I talk about these. To anyone who asks, but there is a local restaurant here in Fort Wayne called Tolan and they have these duck fat frites and it's not just, they're like fancy French fries, um, but it's the sauce that you dip them in, um, that I could just like drink it. Okay. So good.

And I, I'm always looking for an excuse to go there. And I. Always like, if I don't order the duck fat frites, I will walk away with remorse. Like I, I should have, like, I knew better, like, what is

Andrew Camp: the sauce?

Sarah Westfall: It's like a, it's an aioli, but it has like basil and it's just really fresh and really garlicky. I'm a big garlic fan.

Okay. Um, and it, it's just. So good, probably horrible for me. So don't tell me about that, but yeah, it's so [00:54:00] tasty.

Andrew Camp: Uh, no dipping fries in aioli or mayonnaise. Like it sounds gross at first, but until you do it, you're like, Oh wait, this is, this is revelatory,

Sarah Westfall: right? Life changing. You don't want to go back ketchup,

Andrew Camp: ketchup.

No, although I do like, you know, living in Utah, we got exposed to fry sauce.

Sarah Westfall: I do like,

Andrew Camp: I do like fry sauce.

Sarah Westfall: Wait, I don't know this. What is fry sauce?

Andrew Camp: Fry sauce, it's like, it's ubiquitous in Utah. Like wherever you go, you get fry sauce, but it's basically ketchup and mayonnaise mixed together.

Sarah Westfall: Okay. Yes. Um,

Andrew Camp: and different spices.

And so like I, you know, if I'm making it at home, it's, you know, I usually add some spice or different things, but you know, it's, yeah, I do like good fry sauce too.

Sarah Westfall: Okay, yes, I've never heard it called that, but I have had the ketchup mayo conglomeration before.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. And then finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in, if you knew you had only had one more meal left to enjoy, what would it be?

And so, [00:55:00] what would be on Sarah's table if she had one last meal to enjoy?

Sarah Westfall: Oh. Lots of carbs and lots of cheese, but like the really fancy cheese. Um, I love a good, um, like Stilton with cranberries. I like the fruit, fruity, soft cheese stuff. Um, a really dry red wine. Um, and so, and then lots of like bread and cracker.

I basically want charcuterie.

Andrew Camp: Yep. But I understand. Yep. Yep, absolutely.

Sarah Westfall: And then maybe some French fries with the garlic aioli on the side.

Andrew Camp: Yes. Yes. No good cheese and wine. It's, it's hard to surpass.

Sarah Westfall: Yes.

Andrew Camp: I had a friend on Facebook asked like, you know, which would you choose chips and salsa or cheese and crackers?

And I think she's

Sarah Westfall: in crackers.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Cause it has a higher potential. I like. You know, good cheese, [00:56:00] good wine. Like you said, I

Sarah Westfall: would get tired. I would get tired of the chips and salsa much faster than I would the cheese and crackers.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Well, there's just so much great cheese out there. Like we are so limited in what cheese could be that we're missing all, all the beautiful European cheeses and the stinky cheeses and, uh, you know, uh, yeah.

Runnier the better, you know, um, all of it. I want all the cheese. Yeah. I understand. Yes. Christmas Eve at our house was cheese and meat and wine. Yeah. Just because it meant for easy grazing coming home from a Christmas Eve service, you could just graze. Yes. My

Sarah Westfall: boys call that snack plates. They want their meal.

They want snack plates.

Andrew Camp: Nice. Yeah. I understand. Yeah. We usually make one for our girls and it's not usually what we're eating because they're don't, we get, we try to get them to try some of the. Different cheeses, but inevitably they go towards bologna and craft singles, but you know, right now that's mine.

Sarah Westfall: Yeah, I know. We made our boys grilled cheese [00:57:00] sandwiches last night and they got real mad that I didn't do American cheese. Like how dare I do mild cheddar? And I'm like, okay, y'all need to. No. No.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Sarah Westfall: We're up in our game here.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. It's time to expand.

Sarah Westfall: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: No, I understand. Yes. The joys of trying to get our kids to expand while also allowing them to be where they are feels like it fits right way with this way of belonging of how do we love them where they're at but help them push towards something greater.

Sarah Westfall: Right, to, to embrace maybe a little bit more wider way of experiencing the

Andrew Camp: world. Exactly.

Sarah Westfall: Yes.

Andrew Camp: Awesome, Sarah. So this has been such a delight. I appreciate your just genuine heart, your kindness, the gentleness with which you speak of belonging and listeners, I hope you have gotten a few nuggets and, um, and if people want to learn more about your work, might they find you?

Sarah Westfall: Uh, probably the easiest place is just to go to my website, which is Sarah with an H Sarah E [00:58:00] Westfall. com. And from there you can find, um, my sub stack, the podcast, Instagram. It's kind of like the airport it'll send out to all the different places from there.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. So yeah, no, do check out Sarah's website, sarahewestfall.

com and also be sure to read her book, The Way of Belonging, um, in this year and, uh, just to be challenged and to grow and how can we be people of belonging. Um, so if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing it with others. Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food.

Until next time. Bye.