The Biggest Table

Episode 13 (Gisela Kreglinger)
===

Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another. And today I'm thrilled to be joined by Gisela. Gisela teaches and writes on Christian spirituality and her lifelong passion is to lead Christians into a more holistic and embodied spirituality rooted in creation.

She teaches in the academy and churches as well as on her annual wine pilgrimages. She has written books on George MacDonald's pastoral imagination, which is based on her PhD, and most recently, three books on the spirituality of wine, speaking to bridge theology rooted in the Bible and God's creation with the vocational life in the marketplace.

Her most recent book, forthcoming in 2024, asks how we can consume more redemptively. Gisela has lived in five countries and cultivates a web of spiritual friendships across cultural, [00:01:00] denominational, and political spectrums. She loves to travel and show fellow pilgrims the family winery she grew up in, in Germany.

So thanks for joining me today. It's a privilege to talk to you.

Gisela Kreglinger: It's great to be with you, Andrew.

Andrew Camp: So you, you grew up in Germany and your family owns a winery. What, explain to our, what was that like for you growing up on a winery?

Gisela Kreglinger: Yeah, it was, it changed my life in very profound ways. Of course, you know, growing up on a winery, I didn't think that it was anything special, but of course as I got older and got into school, You realize that your life was very different from a lot of your fellow students.

And when I tell people that I grew up in a winery, I always see their eyes glaze over and they have these romantic notions of, Oh, growing up in a winery and sitting in the courtyard when the sun sets and sipping some wine and enjoying the beauty of it. [00:02:00] And yes, that was part of our growing up, but actually, um, if you grow up at a winery where you do everything from the planting of the vines, tending to the vines, um, seeing them to, uh, through harvest time, harvesting, processing, um, crafting the wine in the cellar.

We have a tasting room where people come every day to taste wine and sell the wine and deliver it and also do educational events and wine tasting. That was an intense life. And it was very challenging. It demanded a lot of us as a family. Um, you know, my dad didn't go to any sports events of mine, he would have never dreamt of that.

I mean, he would have looked at me like, why should I go to that? Um, so it was a very, um, our lives were centered around the winery and around the land, not around hobbies or things like that. [00:03:00] So it was a very different emphasis. And then, um, we were four girls. My dad had four girls. He always wanted a boy, but the Lord provided four girls.

It was awesome. So he, I think, sometimes lives in a little bit of denial about the fact that he had four girls.

We had to work a lot growing up and I remember my mother feeling sorry for us because he would come home from school and there would be my grandmother. With a list of chores that we needed to do, so, um, it went from, you know, dropping off our school bags to having lunch and then off we went and had different kind of chores.

So, um, yeah, that was a very, very different life from a lot of my fellow students who, you know, after they did their homework, which we didn't have a lot of time to do. Um, they went out to play while we were busy helping on the winery. Um. I, um, looking back, that was both hard and a blessing. I really loved, um, working.

Um,

Andrew Camp: [00:04:00] the

Gisela Kreglinger: work that we did was very meaningful and, um, very rewarding. We worked very, very hard. But the result of it was beautiful wine that we enjoyed. As children, we weren't allowed to drink it. But then also, as we sort of shared the wine with the community, it was best. Customers would come under the winery or, or we would deliver wine to people.

There was just such, such a sense of community, um, of enjoyment and that we were bringing something very, very beautiful to our community. And my mom always used to say, it's the most wonderful vacation that you could ever have.

And

I'm thankful for that. I think, um, this. Growing up, working really hard and doing meaningful work ultimately helped me decide to become a theologian.

Um, I love being a theologian. I love thinking, um, about God, about scripture [00:05:00] and what it means for us in our times. Um, that gives me a lot of, um, excitement and fulfillment. And so I'm very grateful for that. But of course, we also had to do a lot of hard work that I did not enjoy. For example, one of the chores that I had to do is crawl into the empty wine vats that need to be cleaned, and my dad would hand me a hose.

In the scrub and say, you know, um, you can clear from inside and I would say, but it's really dark and cold and smelly in here. And I, I'm scared and I want to get out. And my dad would just say, just scrub harder. You'll get over it. So that's the mentality that I grew up with. And I don't miss those wine bats and having to crawl into them.

Um, but it taught me, it taught me a lot. It taught me a lot about. Really, really good things you have to work hard for. They don't come easily.

Andrew Camp: No. And

Gisela Kreglinger: it's worth it. [00:06:00] And then, of course, the other thing that we experience a lot is that customers will come really all day into the tasting rooms, and we had a lot of wine tastings in the evenings.

And Germans tend to be sort of on the reserved side, a little bit more serious, and um, when they would come onto the winery, you could just sense that. Um, in them, and they would, um, sit down at the tasting table, and then my dad would introduce one wine after the other. And with every wine that they sample, They lightened up a little bit more and then, um, laughter would come more freely and confessions of delight and pleasure, but also confessions of heartache, loss, and grief.

And so, um, over the evening, the atmosphere gathered momentum and the room became a lot more relaxed. joyous and convivial. And that was really, really beautiful to watch. People didn't [00:07:00] get drunk, um, but they got intoxicated, um, just a little bit. I call it holy intoxication, just that level of intoxication where you are letting go of all your defenses and the need to pretend and to become more real and become more vulnerable.

And you gather up a community in conversation in enjoyment and savoring and beauty. That, um, it's just, it was just so moving and I've seen that all my life. And I think when I move away from the winery and I didn't see those kind of gatherings, that was felt like there was something missing. That, um, intimacy.

Conviviality, the joy, the savoring, taking delight in small things that bring joy to our lives, into our conversations, into our relationships, um, that deeply, deeply changed, um, um, impressed itself upon me and I've [00:08:00] taken that with me into wherever I went, into all sorts of settings. And I always try to recreate it because I think it's so beautiful and it's something that God.

Um, he's given to us for us to lean into and embrace.

Andrew Camp: No, for sure. Wow. A lot of themes there to pick up on. Um, but before touching back to that, um, what wines did your family or does your family um, produce in Germany? Like what's, what's, yeah, what, what are your wines?

Gisela Kreglinger: Um, the, the primary grape variety is a Silvana.

And Savannah is usually only grown in Franconia and maybe in the Alsace region, and it's a savory wine. It has some fruit, but it has more savory notes rather than being floral or fruit forward and has a lot of acidity. So it's really good with, um, food, like a certain kind of cheese, maybe an Emmentaler, um, or, [00:09:00] um, with fish or chicken, um, but we also grew and still are growing, um, Riesling, um, Bajos, um, it's a little bit like Sauvignon Blanc, though with, um, global warming, the climate is changing and the Bajos doesn't, isn't thriving as well anymore.

Thank you, everyone. So we are focusing on other varietals, and there are more red wines now because the wine region has gotten a lot warmer. We really do, um, you know, medium bodied wines like Pinot Noir, Laudrinkish, Domina, Montagueza. They're not, um, as well known, um, abroad, but they're really, really lovely red wines that are medium bodied and that will go really well with wine.

You know, a darker meats or maybe game if you like game, you know, she found a game so they They go well with that. And, um, then, um, we, on our winery, we also made sparkling wine.

I [00:10:00]

can still do. My dad was one of the first ones to start that in our region. We can't call it champagne, but it's, it's made in the same method as a champagne wine.

And then we also have lots of fruit orchards. So it's a small distillery on the winery. And so, um, They make fruit schnapps, apple and pear, plum, yeah, an abundance of good things.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, that's, that's awesome. Um, and then you, in, in your book on, um, the spirituality of wine, you talk about going through confirmation and tasting and taking communion for the first time.

And you, you mentioned that you smell it and it, it's your family's wine that you smell. Um, and you talk about that in such a profound way. What did that do to you as you're reflecting on that, that you're, you're sipping your family's wine in the church? Yeah.

Gisela Kreglinger: You know, in the Lutheran church, confirmation is a really big deal.

[00:11:00] And when I was getting confirmed, I had two years of preparatory process every week to prepare for confirmation. It was a big thing in my life. All your relatives would come, and everyone in the village would send you gifts, and we would be baking for weeks, and then we would hand out as a thank you, a baked good.

So it was You know, in some ways it was, it was a bigger celebration than what a wedding is here in the U. S. And so for me, um, you know, obviously it's a very exciting time. And then, of course, I had this whole background of living on the winery and the hard work that it is. You know, all the people that were involved with us and their stories, some of them are, um, were beautiful and then others were really heart wrenching.

And so, when I, you know, prepared to take communion for the first time, I, you know, I hadn't thought about the fact that maybe our wine would be served. I was [00:12:00] just so trying to understand what was happening. And I remember when the priest came and I took the cup and I smelled it. I was just so startled.

And when I then, um, took a good sip of it, I just, I just had a revelation. I felt like, oh, wow, all of our lives, all the hard work that we do day in and day out, year in, year out, all the tragic stories, all the pain, all the joy, all of this is gathered up in this wine. And somehow God blesses it. And then through it.

We received God's grace. That was just at the time. I couldn't put words to it, but I had a revelation. I felt, wow, God wants to redeem all of this. All that's involved being on the winery, of growing vines, the weather, [00:13:00] the work, the customers that we serve, the enjoyment of it. God wants to redeem all of it.

It was. I think a seed was planted then that perhaps I should be a theologian, in effect, but a little more.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. So, so you do go on and you're, you, you've become a theologian who, who has their hands dirty. Um, you know, who's worked and cultivated the soil, who's delighted in God's abundance. And so how, like, I don't know many theologians who, who love to get their hands dirty, it seems, right?

Like it's usually this ivory tower or we associate it. So what does that mean? How has that been informed your views of theology and what and even spiritual formation?

Gisela Kreglinger: Yeah, I think having grown up in a family that was very agrarian and that also feasting and hospitality was really big in the enjoyment of wine and [00:14:00] for me when I I mean I didn't want to study theology in Germany because me it was more of an intellectual ascent You and maybe an intellectual escape.

Um, this is why I went to study theology at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia. And Gordon Key was at the time there, and Jim Peterson, and Jim Houston, and Lauren Wilkinson. And so Christian spirituality was a big, big subject matter, as well as, um, Lauren Wilkinson taught about eco spirituality and caring for the earth.

And, um, I, um, I think God really led me there because it made all sense. They were making those connections. for me on a theological, uh, intellectual level, um, connections that I sort of grew up with, you know, because I grew up in a family that, um, that's Lutheran and so the faith and, um, our work on the winery and wine were always [00:15:00] interwoven, though no one really reflected towards theologically.

So when I was at Regent College, really, I felt I was in the right place. I got to study in political studies. Importantly, I was teaching assistant for three years, and so I really learned how to read the Bible well, how to do exegesis, how to be attentive to the text, to the context. But I also have Lauren Wilkinson, and I'm teaching about creation, and embodiment, and the imagination, and then Peter St.

James Houston on Christian spirituality. Thank you for having me. So, um, that was really wonderful. And it was really when I sort of finished some of my studies in Germany because it, um, didn't cost anything. And I thought, oh, I can do dogmatics in Germany where I felt a strong, strong disconnect, what I'd always sort of known.

But then also when I did my PhD, um, at, um, uh, [00:16:00] University of St. Andrews and I did it at the Institute for Theology, Imagination in the Arts. So there was already more integration, um, but it's so focused on the arts in terms of music and visual art and poetry

Andrew Camp: in the

Gisela Kreglinger: whole realm of tasting and smelling and touching and food and wine that was just not, um, looked at.

And there's a long history to that in the West. Um, you know, in the way Aquinas, for example, talks about aesthetics. The most reliable judgment we can make is about things that we have a distance to, whether it's hearing, or it's viewing a piece of art, but once you get engaged and you smell and taste it and it becomes part of your body, you're not objective enough.

And then, of course, there were also, um, you know, the virtue, the virtues and vices paradigm, you know, where you as a believer were, um, [00:17:00] in this sort of battle between the virtues and the vices. And one couple within that was platiny and temperance. So really what that taught you is you're always in a battle.

You don't want to be platinous, so you want to be temperate. And so you want to restrain yourself. And I think that's misguided. I don't think that's a Christian idea. I think the Christian paradigm, if you want to frame your spirituality this way, is gluttony versus savoring. And savoring is an invitation to savor, and I think it includes temperance.

If you really want to savor, you want to slow down, you want to take small sips and really explore what is in a wine, um, the smells, um, the tastes, the structure and how it affects your body. So, I think all of those things, um, have not helped us to really understand wine and food, um, [00:18:00] in terms of the imagination and beauty.

That's not what we usually go to. And yet in the Bible, when you think about the garden of Eden, the way the Bible begins is with a garden of literally pleasure and delight in the way humans were to live their relationship with God is by enjoying the fruit of the trees. That's how they view with God.

And um, so I, I try to encourage people to see, um, if they want to view spirituality that way. Think about savoring as a virtue. It is a way not only to enjoy what you have, but to connect with God as the giver of all your gifts. And, um, we are not accustomed to that. Most of us, especially in the Protestant tradition, we are really good at reading, we're good at hearing, we're good at seeing, but paying attention to what we smell and taste and touch is actually really, um, very difficult.

So I do, um, uh, sometimes, quite often, [00:19:00] hold wine tasting as a spiritual practice.

And so I gather people up for an evening with six wines and every wine I offer a meditation

and I tell you it is so difficult. To get people to really sit with the wine and to listen to it very quickly. They are in conversations about all sorts of things, and that's wonderful, but we really have to re learn how to be attentive to what we smell and taste and what we feel in our body.

And that also connects us to a more embodied spirituality. What we sense with our body, the impression that the wine leaves in our body is also something. That we can really use to reconnect with our bodies and what our bodies have to tell us.

Andrew Camp: Right. Yeah. Cause taste, smell, it's such a, and so food and wine, it's such a fleeting art where it's, you know, it's a 30 second bite.

It's a, you know, um, you know, it's not something you can linger, right. But it, you know, the taste is [00:20:00] quickly gone. And so it does require us to pay attention, um, you know, to slow down. And you have this great quote. Um, from your book, it says in such a noisy and manipulated world, it is difficult to contemplate and savor the great and subtle bounties that surround us in creation.

You know, and I think, I think that's what wine invites us to, is just to slow down and notice the subtle and great bounties, um, that are around us.

Gisela Kreglinger: And they're incredible and yet, um, we're so busy getting and spending, we lay waste to our powers. says Wordsworth. We're so busy getting and spending, um, that the spiritual antennas aren't up to really discern how God's pressing in the world and the gifts that he has given us, whether that is in a [00:21:00] beautiful bird that we see or in a tree that we meditate on or in spring flowers coming up, um, the camellias here in the South and, um, the Lenten roses.

And so we just are so caught up in our daily lives and, um, we miss out on so much. And that also goes for food and wine. And a lot of the food that is readily available now doesn't have a lot of flavor in itself, but the flavor is added through salt and fat and sugar. They're very loud, overpowering, and also not very healthy.

So the subtle flavors that we find in well grown food, um, they're often not available anymore unless you have your own garden or you have access to an organic farmer really, really is mindful that they want to create. You know, you know, soil and [00:22:00] grow food that is sort of nutrients and flavor.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. You know, cause each a good wine tells the story of a place too.

Like it's not just, you're not just smelling, you know, the fruit and the aromas and tasting it. You're, you're hopefully getting a picture and a story of. Of the people in the community, um, that has surrounded and upheld it for maybe over 150 years.

Gisela Kreglinger: Yeah, I think that's one of the really, really beautiful things about wine and the wine that's, Um, that reflects the French call it terroir, that really, um, where a vintner says, I want to plant vines and craft a wine that reflects a particular place and its climate.

And so if you have wines like that, they really help you to reconnect with a particular place and with creation. And that's really, really beautiful. And that's also really, really necessary. I think a lot of us are. We are [00:23:00] quite aborted, disconnected,

Andrew Camp: a lot

Gisela Kreglinger: of us move around a lot. I certainly have. And, um, so if we needed even more to reconnect with a particular place, for example, I live in Birmingham, Alabama now, um, uh, you know, the winter is a great, great growing season for various kinds of lettuces and kale and they are delicious and, um, you know, later on in the spring, early summer, we have the peaches.

And I've never had pictures of such intense flavor in my life as I have in the South. So it, it, it, through the food, I, um, connect with this place and feel more at home here, feel more rooted in the place that I live. And so wine, um, can do that too. You don't need to necessarily travel to Italy, but if you get a lovely, um, Chianti from Tuscany and get to enjoy that, you [00:24:00] will get to taste some of what that region is like.

Andrew Camp: Mm hmm. Yeah, you know, and you get to, yeah, it's just enjoying the subtle differences between the different grapes. The same grapes that can grow in Italy will taste very different than the grapes grown, you know, say, in California. Um, you know, and it's just a fun exploration and yet there's people, you know, one, like you've mentioned, we've, the Protestant ethic has been a denying of the pleasure.

And you know, I think it was you that first pointed out to me that Welch's grape juice started because he wanted a non alcoholic alternative. Uh, you know, so we're fighting that. And then there's this stereotype of wine people that, you know, wine snobs, right? Like we just, you know, it's esoteric, it's devoid of life, or it's just, you know, like you said, a romantic view.

Um, so how. How do you combat that? You know, you know, you're working against a [00:25:00] lot of cultural pressure. So, how are you, how do you invite Christians then to enjoy? Who may never have sipped wine to the degree you're asking.

Gisela Kreglinger: Yeah, I think in my, in my book, The Soul of Wine, that came out a couple years ago, I have a chapter called, From Intimidation to Appreciation.

I think it's a journey, you know, because We have not given wine, um, the theological and spiritual meaning that it has. Um, the wine culture here, um, sort of emerged in that kind of a void. So the wine culture, especially in America, but I think that's happening all over, is shaped by an approach, um, that is very much, it's very rationalistic.

Um, it's very much about let's explore the flavor profile of a wine. And you might learn about where the wine is from and what the climate is there, but then they hone in on, you know, [00:26:00] the, the flavors and the, um, the smells. And, um, the structure of the wine and you get all of this information from wine experts.

Now, the wine experts, of course, know about, um, wine, um, but they're also limited. A lot of them are not trained enough to know that it's actually really hard to talk about wine because we always use metaphor to explain something that we don't have language for. So sometimes I feel like they're overconfident to use all of this language when really we're, we're left with something that leaves us quite speechless.

And, um, and then there are also technical term, for example, minerality is one example, you know, Oh, there's a lot of minerality. And I'm like, well, what does that mean? the minerals in the soil, um, don't have flavor. And if they have a relationship to the minerals in the wine, if at all, it's very indirect. So what are they talking about minerality?

Do they talk about the savory dimension of wine? Um, certainly not that they [00:27:00] taste like raw. Um, so it's just, it's just a word that's, that's very popular now. And yet what does it actually mean? So I think we have to, uh, protect. Ourselves a little bit from the expert, we call them the high priests and priests, the guards, the temple of wine appreciation.

We can learn a lot from them. I don't want to, um, um, undermine what they do. And I appreciate a lot of what they do, but a side product, and that's part of sort of the marketing strategy is to get you intimidated. You know, so that they are the experts, you are, you know, the novice and you have to learn from them and they will guide you.

Um, every one of us has been given the capacity to taste and smell. It's actually an incredible capacity that God has given to us. And so when I lead Wine Tastings as a spiritual practice, one of the first ideas that I introduce is the priesthood of all [00:28:00] drinkers. We're all liberated to sample and enjoy wine in our own terms because God has given us the capacity to smell and taste.

That doesn't mean that we can't learn and draw on the experts to help us. But it's really, really important that we learn to be confident. In our own capacity to smell and taste and feel the wine and then go on to a journey of learning. And I want to liberate people to be free to enjoy that journey. And so I usually try and find a wine shop with people who are very aware of both the limitations of their knowledge and the limitations of language.

They give you room to explore the wine on your own terms.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Gisela Kreglinger: So I wanna set people free to enjoy wine as a gift. God.

Andrew Camp: Right. Wow. Um, yeah. 'cause then you mentioned too that, [00:29:00] you know, to drink is to pray. Um, you know, which again, it's such a rich metaphor of how, you know, praying as we're, we're engaging in this.

So what does that, what does that look like? How do we pray as we. drink and maybe it's not wine, you know, maybe it's coffee or maybe it's, you know, we're, we're savoring our meal. Um, so what's the invitation then to, to learn to do this?

Gisela Kreglinger: I think the most profound, um, invitation that we have all received in Christ is to commune with the triune God of love and grace.

This is our highest vocation is to commune with God and to enjoy God forever, to savor the goodness of God. And, um, what the earth brings forth. It's a gift that God has given to us. God created the world in such a way that, um, vines can grow, that there are yeast bacteria in the atmosphere that help [00:30:00] transform grape juice into wine.

And so this is an invitation both to savor the goodness of what the earth brings forth, but ultimately it's an invitation to savor God. And it's not one or the other, they belong to God and his gifts. Are, um, they belong together. This is how we can, and we're always meant to communicate a

Andrew Camp: lot.

Gisela Kreglinger: It is through the world that he is made and through beauty.

Um, you know, Jesus first miracle was at the wedding feast of Cana, where they had run out of wine and he transformed an abundance of water. Into a super abundance of really, really high quality wine. Uh, when you, when you, when we want to talk about Jesus in YouTube, you have to talk about wine because he created wine, you made wine.

And so he reminds us [00:31:00] that feasting is 1 way that we lean into our faith. It is through feasting that we celebrate a marriage covenant, which reminds us of God's covenant with us. It's through feasting that we celebrate the life of Great Resurrection at Easter. It is through feasting that we receive and celebrate the giving of the Holy Spirit.

Um, you know, that, that traditionally was, uh, the first fruit festival, where they celebrated, um, the, the harvest. And so the harvest that we get from the earth comes from God. And, um, eating is how God designed us. He designed us. that we eat rather than, you know, draw our nutrients by standing in the soil for a few hours and being fed that way.

He made us to eat so that we can commune with him. Every time we eat, we have to remember, yes, without God, we do not have life. Let us be [00:32:00] grateful that he wants us to enjoy it. Not only are we eating, he has placed an abundance of flavors in our food. into the world so that we can savor it and enjoy it and be glad.

Oh,

Andrew Camp: that's beautiful. Yeah. Cause feasting shows up time and time again in scripture and, and wine is a sign of the messianic age and the old Testament and the vineyards, vineyards show up like time and time again throughout scripture as an app metaphor. Like, you know, we could say maybe agrarian society.

So that's why they picked this vine metaphor, but do you think there's something deeper? There seems to be something deeper about using the vine as a metaphor for our rich abiding in Christ, that we can't get elsewhere. What, do you have any words, thoughts on why?

Gisela Kreglinger: Well, I, I just actually wrote something on, um, I am the true vine and you are the branches because I have not written about that extensively because I don't [00:33:00] actually think it's about wine.

It really is a metaphor. that pops up in the, in the Hebrew scriptures, you know, in, in, in Psalm 80. It talks about, you know, it's really a vine that God has brought out of Egypt. So it's this, it really is this image draws on God has delivered, as we are delivered people and God wants to plant us into a promised land.

And then the vine imagery is used a lot to bring God's judgment. Because though they have been delivered by God and received from God, they only produce sour grapes. They're not faithful to God, and, um, it's commanded to be a blessing, and to bless, and to care of the vulnerable. And so, um, a lot of that language is actually about judgment, and so it is in John, it's about Um, you know, the branches that are dead are cut off.

Um, so, um, the line where we don't bring forth things that are living but that are [00:34:00] dead, um, God has to cut them off because if they keep with us, the vine will not be able to flourish. So all the things, um, that, um, are produced on the vine, the branches that are dead, if we just let them sort of be there, it keeps the vine from flourishing.

It's a really powerful, and I think They were very agrarian, even people who were not involved directly in agriculture were still very close to this. So, it was a powerful way for them to understand, Oh my gosh, yes, there are certain things that need to be cut off, because if they are not cut off, the whole vine will suffer and will not be able to, um, to flourish.

Or, you know, then, okay, some of the branches that cut off. There's no more life coming from them. Cut them off and they are burned in the fire, that's all you can do with the dead stuff. But then the branches that do bear fruit, they need to be [00:35:00] pruned. You know, and the Greek words that used there is actually not a very sort of common word for viticulture.

It means more like pruned and to be cleaned. He cleansed and then Jesus, you know, clarifies that. And so talks about, um, you know my word though, you are already cleaning My word cleanses you. So what pulsates through the vine is the word of Christ. Christ himself is the vine and his word, um, his words to he speaks, his actions, the way he brings about the kingdom of God, who is suffering in death, um, feeds the branches.

And our fruitfulness depends on our willingness to die, like the seed that falls into the ground. Only when we allow it to die and be reversed are we fruitful. So it's a powerful [00:36:00] metaphor, and also the whole winemaking process, you have to crush the grapes.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Gisela Kreglinger: You have to crush the grapes. They need to die in a sense and mingle together.

Right. You know, you're no longer just yourself, you are now brought into the body of Christ, or in the wine vat, where your juice mingles with the other juices, and together you are fermented into the body of Christ. So the parallels. So, so powerful and um, but I think it's important to stay with the context of John and how Jesus really explains this metaphor, um, and understand that it really speaks about Christ words in the way he brings about the kingdom that, um, teaches us how to flourish.

And how to, um, love one another themselves to each other by dying for the other. And, um, so it's a powerful [00:37:00] image for community. And, um, yeah, so I think that metaphor lends itself so powerfully. And also, I think, um, I've just written on this, so I'm going to sort of reflect on that. I am. The vine is a very powerful metaphor for Jesus to use.

I'm the true vine, no longer Israel, but I'm the true vine. And in the creation account, it's the tree of life.

Andrew Camp: God

Gisela Kreglinger: is pressing the metaphor that we have God's presence tree of life. Now we have the vine, God becomes human,

Andrew Camp: right?

Gisela Kreglinger: This emphasizes his humanity. And in Revelation, we have the tree of life again.

So it was this beautiful organic metaphor. That tells us that God is very near to us in all the ins and outs of our lives and how we become. It's very, very, um, moving how intimately involved God is in [00:38:00] our lives according to these metaphors. That he's not just out there, over there watching us, but that he's intimately involved.

Um, you know, in John, there's the spirit language in the previous chapters about the Holy Spirit at work. And, um, and then the word that, um, is the lifeblood of the Bible. And so the Spirit, the Holy Spirit infuses that. And so through that we really learn what it means to be grafted into Christ. Who He is and how He brings about the Kingdom.

Which is by becoming a servant. By washing people's feet. By lying down their lives. By loving. By giving up in His life. And that is such a hard thing for us to understand. Because we want to secure our lives. It seems counterintuitive to say we're going to abandon our lives so that we can receive the fullness of

Andrew Camp: it.

Yeah. And the fact that we just have to, we have to get dirty. We have to get in touch with, with the ground. We have to get in touch with this embodied living. [00:39:00] Um, we have to feed people, literally, like, you know, um, Jesus, you know, he makes a meal for his disciples after he's risen in John, like he feeds them.

Um, there's a dirtiness to the Christian spirituality that I think we need to recover, um, you know, and I think wine and agriculture, um, give us an app metaphor to help.

Gisela Kreglinger: And, you know, we have for the most part, and, you know, so we, we have just sort of been growing up in this, we have abandoned the work of agriculture to corporations that are destroying the earth.

Um, and the food that they offer us is Not good for us, and we get, um, it's the whole system is so broken, and I think we need to, in some way or another, I mean, I, I'm a theologian, I sit at my desk, like, I'm really in touch with our local farmers. This is, I have a local regenerative farmer that I get [00:40:00] my meat from and I pick it up in the city and I hear the stories about the land, the family connected through them or my other organic farmer.

And so we need to, even if we are not the ones that do the work, we need to support farmers to do the work. Well, that costs something, you know, people say, well, but we can't afford that. So. It's a real issue. I'm not saying it's not, but remember to follow Christ costs something. It's

Andrew Camp: the

Gisela Kreglinger: cost of discipleship.

And that also means in a broken agricultural system, we need to relearn to invest our money in the right places.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Gisela Kreglinger: Really important. And for those who really, you know, people in the food, in food deserts, like in Alabama and in Birmingham, we have a lot of food deserts, but their ministries, we have a ministry called Jones Valley Urban Farm, and they not only have an urban farm, but they have an educational center.

They go into these four [00:41:00] neighborhoods and teach the kids how to grow food,

Andrew Camp: about

Gisela Kreglinger: nutrition, how to cook food, and that to me is redemption. If a poor people, poor food is to just intensify the suffering, redemption means that they are healed in body, mind, and spirit. So we need to give them good food so that they can be whole in their bodies so that they can think well and thrive in life.

Andrew Camp: No, absolutely. Yeah. No. And one of my guests on the podcast was Chris Battle, who's in Knoxville. Um, he used, he's an African American pastor who turned farmer. Um, and is growing food for his community now and addressing their food desert right there, but, um, and yeah, like he realized

Gisela Kreglinger: today, if you want to be a prophet today, you have to speak into where our culture is broken and worse.

Our culture is spoken in the food system. We are not nourished by the earth anymore because the corporations. Um, um, the [00:42:00] food that they produce is processed, it's unhealthy, it's packaged, and children start at a young age. So to be prophetic in our time is to look at that brokenness. And so I think all priests really should look at having a ministry that encourages even just a small garden.

And, um, you know, we need to, we need to teach nutrition in the church because people do not know how to feed themselves anymore. And, um, we are now the third generation that is eating unhealthily. So the children that are born now are genetically so predisposed to warts, diseases. They are the ones that are really hurting.

And so we need to stop that.

Andrew Camp: Right. Wow. Yeah. No, that's a, I think we could spend much more time on, on that topic. Um, and it's a worthwhile topic that does, we do need to think through and how, how to make it accessible to all people. Um, you know, and

Gisela Kreglinger: yeah, and even with when you think about wine, you know, I understand that a [00:43:00] good wine is not cheap, but you have to remember if you get a mass produced cheap wine from Trader Joe's, think of all the pesticides and herbicides that are in there.

Think about the migrant workers in Sicily, the African migrant workers. That live in horrendous conditions that don't get paid well, and cheap wine, cheap food has a price you might not pay, but the migrant workers will, and we must stop not talking about it.

Andrew Camp: No, absolutely. Um, so as thinking as we begin to wrap up, like how, um, for our listeners, as they enjoy their next glass of wine, or maybe whatever glass they enjoy, how can they.

began to see it as a spiritual exercise? What could they do to begin to pray as they drink?

Gisela Kreglinger: I think choosing a wine well is the first beginning. You need to choose a wine well. You need to [00:44:00] realize that wine is a neutral subject matter and that where it comes from and how it is produced is very important.

And then when you choose a wine, you know, I've never had a ton of money and, you know, so people are limited in their budget. I encourage people to go to a, you know, a good wine shop and get some help with choosing a decent wine. And then when you come home, I would, you know, um, like with a prayer time, try to get rid of distractions, things that would be your phone, or even if you have a candle with a send, I would just not turn that on so that you have sort of a neutral environment And to really pour yourself a glass of wine and learn to be attentive.

Um, maybe even pray from Psalm 104. And, um, give yourself permission to smell and taste both the wine and the goodness of God. And then savor it slowly and listen to it. Don't rush things, you know, [00:45:00] take a good sit and then listen to what it does in your mouth, what you smell and what you taste and then even as you swallow it, feel it in your throat and how it goes out into your body and how your body responds to it.

And then if you do, hopefully you will do that with a couple of other people. You might want to, um, respond to each other, what you're smelling, what you're tasting. But also remember, when you taste wine, the part of the brain that processes smell is the part of the brain that processes emotions and memories.

Andrew Camp: So

Gisela Kreglinger: maybe the wine will, you know, evoke certain emotions or bring up certain memories. Listen to those. Bring them into the conversations. Let it be an organic process. and sit with it and don't rush it. And, um, I, in my new book have overflowing, I have an appendix where I give for my readers instructions for [00:46:00] how to do a wine tasting as a spiritual practice.

Andrew Camp: So

Gisela Kreglinger: if you, let's say you have three or four wines with each one, I offer meditation. And then, um, you can weave. your faith into experiencing the beauty and the flavor and the sensations of wine in the conversations that we have.

Andrew Camp: I'm glad you have that appendix coming because I, I, I will look forward to it and can't wait.

Um, just because I think that is such a necessary thing to help people again, get past, you know, like you said, we're priesthood of all drinkers, you know, and, um, you know, we, we all have our own sense of taste and smell and the memories that can come. Um, it's funny when you were talking about memories, I was just tasting, um, an Italian wine, a Negro Amaro, um, from San Marzano, um, you know, and as I was smelling it, I, you know, I know San Marzano tomatoes, you know, and that's what my mind associates with.

And as I'm smelling it, [00:47:00] all of a sudden I placed my finger on it. I'm like, this reminds me of Campbell's soup, like not in a bad way, but just, it had that memory of, you know. Uh, you know, and it was just a very helpful to name it and be like, Oh, okay. Like, um, you know, and just to see what it did to me, um, was,

Gisela Kreglinger: yeah.

And what, you know, what, what sort of emotions are attached to capital suit? Were those comforting moments,

Andrew Camp: you

Gisela Kreglinger: know, all these memories of comfort where you get to enjoy a suit that you were familiar with and, you know, to name those emotions and, uh, retrieve those memories and share those and, you know, See what, what the Spirit does.

Andrew Camp: No, absolutely. Um, well, this has been a delightful conversation, um, Gisela. Um, one question I'd love to ask and hear, um, you know, from my guests is, as you reflect on the church and where we are today, what's the story you want the church to tell?[00:48:00]

Gisela Kreglinger: I want the church to relearn what it means to be the body of Christ. What it means that Christ is divine, and we are the branches, and what it means to love one another as we are rooted firmly in the earth, as we share meals together, as we learn to be hospitable. I think, um, I, I think we can deepen what it means to be the body of Christ, what it means to belong to one another, perhaps more so even in your own family.

Hmm. What it means to open the door and to welcome new members in, to share life, to care for each other, to readjust our lives in such a way that we know each other better, know our ups and downs and how we can love one another well. And often we can do that by [00:49:00] gathering for meals, you know, I have a home group where you gather for a meal and we're naturally conversations come up and that you, you understand where you're at and then, um, learn what it means to care for each other.

Andrew Camp: Awesome well, thank you so much. Um, as we wrap up to some fun questions, um, sort of, you know, as to wrap up with food, um, as you reflect on your food journey. What's one food you refuse to eat?

What's one, uh,

Gisela Kreglinger: chicken feet,

Andrew Camp: chicken feet. Gotcha.

Gisela Kreglinger: Yeah, I was on a mission trip to China and we took train up to Beijing. That was decades ago and we were in a sleeper and had some Chinese men there and, you know, they were so excited to offer chicken feet to us and we, we, we. Well, we needed to eat them because they were [00:50:00] so hospitable and I don't ever want to eat chicken feet in my life again.

Thank you.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, I understand.

Gisela Kreglinger: Wait for a chicken broth.

Andrew Camp: Yes, they are. Yes. Very much so. Yep. Yep. The, the gelatin, the natural gelatin that yes, produces. So then on the, on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Gisela Kreglinger: Um, a wild boar roast with a sour cherries. And then a little bit of chocolate and they're really lovely. First thing, you know, from Burgundy, just a little bit of a salad.

Andrew Camp: Wow.

Gisela Kreglinger: Oh,

Andrew Camp: it sounds delightful. Where, where did that take place? Just out of curiosity

Gisela Kreglinger: in Germany,

Andrew Camp: in Germany.

Gisela Kreglinger: We like game. Well, it has this earth and flavor, you know, they're [00:51:00] also.

Vegetables like root vegetables that have earth in flavor. I really like them. They make me feel more rooted.

Andrew Camp: Right now. Yeah. Parsnips, rutabagas. Yeah. We love root vegetables. Uh, and then finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals. You know, as if you knew you only had one more meal to enjoy on this earth.

What would you enjoy? So do you have an idea of if you knew you had one last meal? Do you know what that meal would entail?

Gisela Kreglinger: That's a good question.

Andrew Camp: Um,

Gisela Kreglinger: yeah, I would want it to be a feast and I want, I would want all my family and friends to come over and, um, it would be a long winding meal with many courses.

It would certainly have a lin in it. The dessert, I could start with a dessert of and a scha, which an Austrian chocolate cake. [00:52:00] And, um, it would have lots of different wines to go with it. Certainly some Pinot Noir, but also some Riesling, maybe to start with. And, um, probably some game, um, various cheeses, um, for a starter.

Probably really, really, really one of the things that I love about Alabama in the winter season, the lettuces here have actual flavor. The supermarket lettuces taste like water.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Gisela Kreglinger: So they have a beautiful lettuce. From a garden with actual flavor with little flowers in the nice, light vinegar red.

Really, really high quality baguette with butter.

Andrew Camp: Yes. And a

Gisela Kreglinger: little sprinkle of sea salt.

Andrew Camp: Perfect. Yeah. Yes. All right.

Gisela Kreglinger: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: No, a good salad with really good lettuce and a good olive oil. And like you said, just a sprinkle of salt. It sounds like

Gisela Kreglinger: dancing, you know, even if I was in a wheelchair or, you know, I was ill [00:53:00] and about to step through, um, the door into the presence of God, I would, you know, I would want a little bit of music there and a little bit of dancing

Andrew Camp: and

Gisela Kreglinger: celebrate my way into the

Andrew Camp: kingdom

Gisela Kreglinger: and into the presence of God.

Andrew Camp: Absolutely. No, it's, it's delightful. Um, no, in this conversation, I've enjoyed it immensely. Um, and if people are interested more in your work, where. Where can they reach you or if they want to learn more about wine pilgrimages? Um, yeah,

Gisela Kreglinger: I have a website giselakreglina. com or thespiritualityofwine. com is my website and I am leading a wine pilgrimage again I'm not doing one this year because I have a new book coming out, Cup Overflowing So I have to sort of, uh, make sure that my life stays sane and I have time to savor.

But next year I'm offering a wine probability and I just sent the flyer out so they can get in touch through my website.

Andrew Camp: Sweet. And when's your new book going to be released or is [00:54:00] there a release date yet? October. October. Okay. Gotcha. Awesome. Well, we'll look forward to that. Um, and again, thank you so much for your time.

Gisela, this has been just a delight, um, and just to talk to you about wine, um, you know, and your journey.

Gisela Kreglinger: It's been a delight to be with you, to be in conversation. Thank you for taking this interest in asking these really interesting questions. They make me think more about, um, what I've been thinking about for a long time.

I feel like the conversation can go in so many directions and my hope and prayer is that this will continue to flourish and, um, you know, soon enough the U. S. will be covered with vignettes.

Andrew Camp: Absolutely. Yeah. No. And yeah, to expand the conversation and because we didn't even touch, because you mentioned Babette's Feast in your book, um, you know, which is one of those movies that just needs to be.

Have a spiritual exercise associated with it, um, with wine and, um, stuff like that. And so I, I, you know, at some point, but that needs to be talked [00:55:00] about more and Christians.

Gisela Kreglinger: It's a powerful. Um, it's a powerful film, and, um, there's just a new film that's come out, um, The Taste of Things with Juliette Binoche.

Andrew Camp: Okay, yeah.

Gisela Kreglinger: It's very different, but sort of touches on Babette's feast, and, um, reveals the love language of food and wine. It really is God's love language.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Awesome. Well, if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing it with others. Thanks again for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food.

Until next time, bye.