The Biggest Table

Episode 43 (Michael Adam Beck)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I'm your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast we explore the table food, eating and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.

And today I'm joined by Michael Beck.

Michael is a pastor, professor, author, and one of the rare leaders bridging frontline ministry with academic scholarship. Alongside his wife Jill, he has led multiple revitalizations in planted unconventional faith communities. Among those often overlooked. They currently serve as co-pastors of Compassion in St. Mark's United Methodist Churches, where they lead open arms village, a holistic recovery housing program, and oversee a network of fresh expressions, worshiping communities that gather in places like tattoo parlors, dog parks, burrito shops, EV charging stations, digital spaces and recovery centers.

Michael also serves as Director of Fresh Expressions Florida, director of the Fresh Expressions House of Studies at Perkins School of Theology at smu and Director of Fresh [00:01:00] Expressions. His most recent book, Never Alone explores how churches can address the epidemic of loneliness with the Gospel's radical promise of community.

So thanks for joining me today, Michael. Uh, really enjoyed your book Never Alone, and really think it fits with the themes I'm exploring here on The Biggest Table. So thanks for joining me today.

Michael Adam Beck: Thank you, Andrew. I love the theme of your podcast and what you're, the goodness you're trying to put into the world.

So thanks for letting me be a part of it.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Um, so what I, where I wanna start is just 'cause I think your backstory helps provide the framework for how you approach communities. So can you give, um, my listeners sort of a little background of who you are, where you've come from, and how that has motivated you to explore community in this, these fresh ways?

Michael Adam Beck: For sure. So, um, I was born addicted. Um, my, my biological mother was not really able to care for me at that time. My biological father was unknown. And so I was adopted [00:02:00] by my grandparents for a time in my early childhood, and they kind dragged me to this little, um, church in Ocala, Florida, uh, St. Mark's UMC.

Um, even when I did wanna go sometimes, but, um, my, my childhood, I remember, you know, just a really warm, um, pleasant experience of the church and church people and, um, people really nurtured me, you know, rallied around me and my infant baptism and committed to raise me in a community of love and forgiveness and fed me through their never ending potlucks.

Just really nurtured me in the faith. My grandpa died when I was 10, and then my grandmother died and I, I dropped out in the ninth grade. Uh, drugs, alcohol, got involved in some selling drugs, gangs, um, ended up in juvenile detention a lot, and then ultimately jail and encounter Jesus in a, in a solitary confinement cell.

Hmm. Um, [00:03:00] so part of what I speak with Never Alone is, um you know, having been somebody who did over a month in a solitary confinement cell, which I feel human beings made an image of God and created for community and love to put 'em in a box, um, by themselves for extensive periods of time, can be, I. A really, uh, cruel form of punishment that we still do every day, even to juveniles and kids actually in our, our justice system.

But, um, I had an encounter for me, you know, uh, like Merton says, we move into the solitude not to come away from the world or to be set apart from the world, but to make that discovery of the true self unmask, the distorted false self and find our true self in God. So that kind of happened for me in a jail cell.

Um. Where people were kind of breaking every day. Like people commit suicide, they do all kind of crazy stuff. Um, so, uh, long story short, I'll wrap it up with this, but I got outta jail, went back to that little [00:04:00] church that nurtured me, that raised me. Um, and luckily there was a recovering alcoholic pastor there, uh, pastor Dan Jones and he.

I told him my whole story, how I think I met Jesus and he spoke to me and there was like light in my jail cell and all this stuff. And he said, um, well I'm glad Jesus has saved your soul, but AA will save your butt. He used another word there that I won't stay on your po your holy sacred space here. But, um, so he said, meet me at the noon meeting tomorrow.

Let me show you how to do life sober. And that was 18 years ago. And really the deepest sense of community that I've known. And my discipleship and my walk with Jesus has been the 12 step fellowship community, which is where I really still lean in today for that koinonia, that depth of community where we can just bring our full selves and stuff.

So a lot of my ministry flows out of all of that

Andrew Camp: for sure. Wow. Um, what a gift that in the midst of such pain and sorrow, Jesus [00:05:00] met you in a, in a solitary space. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead.

Michael Adam Beck: Uh, sorry, I I didn't mean to cut you off there.

Andrew Camp: No, um,

Michael Adam Beck: I, I just need to say that I am back as the pastor of that church, so St.

Mark's, UMCI, I'm now the place where I was baptized as a baby and nurtured and all of that. I'm back as the pastor, and in, in Methodism we have this prolific hymn writer in our tradition named Charles Wesley, and he wrote many, many hymns, but one of my favorites is, and can it be. Hmm, and one of my favorite lines in all of like Christian literature and music is long.

My prison spirit lay fast bound in sin and nature's night. Thine. I diffused a quickening ray. I woke the dungeon flame with light. My chains fell off. My heart was free. I rose, went forth and followed the. So that hymn is basically my [00:06:00] story. Uh, you know, Charles Wesley was singing my story, and it's not just some words for me.

It's like literally my experience of Jesus and my wife and I try to cultivate that same kind of thing with others through community.

Andrew Camp: You mentioned that you know, that really AA and other addiction recovery groups have been your strongest sense of community and so. You know, I've never participated in an AA or recovery group, and I'm guessing many of my listeners haven't.

So like what is it about AA groups that can be so profound and maybe more biblically centered community than a evangelical church?

Michael Adam Beck: Yeah, so you know, Acts 2, I love that as a kind of a blueprint where they dedicated themselves to the apostles teaching the breaking of the bread and the prayers. They met daily in their homes around tables, right?

So they were breaking bread, having meals, and they were going to the temple frequently. So they had this inherited kind of church thing, temple stuff, but they [00:07:00] were really doing life and community together around the table in their homes and constantly together. I. And I think what AA does and other fellowships like it is it creates that consistent kind of contact, uh, where we're, we're really working out our spirituality and it, it's a broad range of spirituality, right?

Like people bring different higher powers to the space. Mm-hmm. But. The 12 steps that Bill and Bob, um, developed, actually came outta the Oxford Group and came out, came, they're just basically Christianity 1 0 1.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Adam Beck: Uh, like Frank Buckman was the priest. And I love, uh, Richard Rohr talks about, um, in, uh, breathing underwater that the 12 step spirituality is America's one unique, like great contribution to the, the spiritual landscape.

But the community part of it, that's the important thing that I think we don't do in churches real well. And I don't want to keep harping on Methodism, but I'm, I'm kind of a Methodist, so just, yeah. Forgive [00:08:00] that listeners who, that's not your, your, your hive there. But, um, in the early Methodism you had societies, classes, bands.

So field preaching, awakening to God's grace, small group. The only requirement for membership was the desire to flee, the wrath to come Wesley's language. That's 12 step, right? The only requirement is a desire to stop drinking. So, and then the honest confession that happens in that space. Yeah. James 5 says, confess your sins one to another, you'll be healed.

Forgiveness comes directly through God, right? But, um, for healing comes through confession and doing that in community with others. So in a 12 step fellowship, we literally sit there and say. Basically, this is how I suck to this week. This is how I sinned or I messed up, or whatever. Mm-hmm. And we can just kind of be honest about that and support each other in, in real spiritual growth where sometimes I feel like in a church you come and, you know, you do this service and you sing some songs and you maybe do a Bible [00:09:00] study together and you have some, uh, coin in there.

But are we doing the deep penetrating, like really how goes it with your soul and trying to spiritually grow out of those old. Like in the language of, uh, celebrate Recovery hurts, habits and hangups.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Adam Beck: Whereas 12 Step Communities really open a space for you to do that.

Andrew Camp: Gotcha. Yeah. 'cause there is a lot of intentionality with the 12 steps and there is, you know, I like the idea of steps because, you know, it's, there is the process.

Um, my wife's a clinical psychologist and she's done a, a little recovery, some recovery stuff, and so. Like, I have a vague awareness of it, but nothing. Um, but many people have talked about how, you know, AA might be closer to biblical community than you know, a lot. And some of it's the intentionality and, but like you said, it's that confessing of sins and saying, Hey, I messed up.

Um, but it's also that realization you're in the midst of people who, who recognize, [00:10:00] um, their lowness, you know, and that. Maybe that can help too. Whereas in Christian community or small groups, we can pretend a lot. Um,

Michael Adam Beck: yeah,

Andrew Camp: absolutely. Yeah. You know, and then we're hearing a lot of talk too then about this loneliness, this epidemic of loneliness we're experiencing, and, um.

And the detrimental effects of social media and technology on belonging. You, you talk about Jonathan Haidt's book, the Anxious Generation, which is a great book. Yeah. Um, to sort through and think through, um, you know, we have a six and an 8-year-old to think through how we want them to approach technology, but how has then this epidemic impacting Christian community and.

Um, what are ways that you are looking to then use your recovery programs as means to address this epidemic of loneliness?

Michael Adam Beck: Yeah, I, I think I started to really realize early on, um, in my [00:11:00] ministry that the thing that really people were mostly struggling with and the really unhealthy kind of behavior patterns was like loneliness.

People were just lonely and, um. And I will sadly say that I don't think the church was really kind of providing the kind of community that they needed to heal that loneliness. So a lot of people just kind of checked out on church or tried to find out other places. I live in this weird world where it's like I'm a pastor, um, you know, but I'm also a professor, so I, I, uh, I'm a graduate instructor of sociology at the University of Florida.

Andrew Camp: Oh.

Michael Adam Beck: I did this, this, this last semester. We had like the TikTok, um, you know, went away for two or three days. Yeah. I'm not personally really invested in TikTok, but my students are very invested in it. Right. And I was watching like that. We do this on Tuesdays. We do kind of a conversational, they'll [00:12:00] practice a philosophy and we share about it.

And I also do church in a rehab on Monday nights called Higher Power Hour with people that have substance abuse, chemical dependency kinda stuff. We do church there. And I was watching these young people like literally detoxing Hmm. Like having all the same symptoms. Right. Wow. And, and, um, so there's something, I'm all for online church, let me say this, so I don't get, you know, crucified by the online church people.

We do some online stuff. We did a church, uh, VR church for a long time. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, and so, uh, I, I believe you can form community in digital space. We have to hold that with the data beside the data that shows that for a lot of people, they use technology not in a way to kind of create community, but to create maybe kind of a counterfeit community, right?

And then never alone. I try to talk about the long history of that, right? Because you go all the way back to like Genesis one, two, and three, and then you have [00:13:00] Kain and Naval, and then you have Kain f Fleeing over to Nod a city where they build these instruments and they, they the first musical instruments and the first like city technology takes place.

Bronze.

Andrew Camp: Okay. Tools. Yep.

Michael Adam Beck: And they basically create a counterfeit community to like live life apart from God. Hmm. Right. So technology can build a arc, you know, Noah, where we can like cradle life and, and sustain life. And we get instructions from God to like create, use this technology to do good in the world.

And then you have this other extreme where it's like we can also use technology to create this counterfeit community. And I think a lot of what people, their online life, more gravitates for that, uh, counterfeit thing. We're the attention economy, right? We're just being algorithmed into paying attention to these things, and we're kind of neglecting our own real depth of relationships and our own spiritual needs and such.

And so I think the thing that I'm [00:14:00] trying to communicate in the book is the gospel is not just a message about Jesus. That's part of it, right? Mm-hmm. But it is actually a community that we're offering, right? Like we're baptized into a community. And the good news is that when you come into relationship with Jesus, when you accept and embrace that, you come into a community, um, that is his body.

Andrew Camp: Yep.

Michael Adam Beck: So our proclamation been kind of shallow and collapsed. Like, Hey, accept these propositions about Jesus, you know, and go to heaven when you die. And that's really not his message at all. It was like, follow me. Are you weary and burdened? Come and yolk with me. You'll find rest for your soul. Um, and as good news involves this kind of community life.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, no. 'cause you mentioned a few times that, um, throughout the book that, um, our salvation, our redemption is communal. Um, yes. Which, you know, American ideology and our values, many of 'em. [00:15:00] Just to put it bluntly, our anti gospels, you know, whether it's the pursuit of happiness or, um, individualism or, you know, um, yeah, fear of missing out, you know, all of these ideologies that are shaping who we are are not leading us into this communal life that, you know, God originally created us Right.

To live into. And so then, you know, you mentioned then that as we're making evangelistic strategies, we're, we're actually asking the wrong questions. That people are no longer wanting answers to. And so what have you found? Like, can you explain that to people? 'cause you know, like, I, I feel it, I felt it, you know, working in evangelical churches and you know, what we wanted, how we talked about evangelism, but like, help us unpack that, you know, so that we, we can ask the right questions that people want answers to.

Michael Adam Beck: For sure. I, I gotta just share [00:16:00] like an illustration of this. That's at the University of Florida. We have, um, this big place called Plaza the Americas. And all day long, you know, hundreds of students are gathering out there throughout the day doing a. Gathering on blankets, you know, doing yoga or having diary time where they're journaling together or, um, some of them are having bible studies, um, doing improv, playing instruments, just pretty much all the things you can do.

Andrew Camp: Yeah,

Michael Adam Beck: there's a gentleman who shows up, um, pretty almost every day. Um, and has a bullhorn, some signs, you know, the standard kind of repent, believe sequence kind of thing. Yep. And he stands out there and proclaims his version of the gospel. And it's actually not cringey some of the thing, how he's presenting.

It's about love, it's about God's love and God.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

Michael Adam Beck: Reaching out in love and I, I've, I've stopped and just listened and I've never really seen a student. Stop and [00:17:00] engage him in a conversation. Mm-hmm. Um, and maybe they, they are and I'm just not seeing it. But, um, but if he would just put that bullhorn down and go sit on the blanket with some of those students, he would hear them talking about spirituality and talking about the joys and the struggles of life.

And if he would just ask some questions, um, he would find that they are actually developing church and community right there in those blankets. Yeah. So I think one way we present, I mean, I consider myself an evangelical, I'm almost scared to use that word in this climate, but Right. I want people to know the gospel of Jesus.

I want them to experience communal life in Jesus the way that I have. It's turned my world, you know, right side up and change my life. I want people to know that, and I think we need to do that in a trauma informed. Knowing that most of what people see as evangelical has actually been very harmful in their life.

Hmm. Um, some of the research shows, one [00:18:00] in three Americans have experienced religious trauma, and we've been able in like a Constantinian Christendom mode of church to do the, you know, monologue presentation. Here's what you need to know now, respond to it intellectually. Um, whereas Jesus was really a dialogical preacher.

Right. He asked, yeah. 307 questions. Yep. And he invited people into stories and he would share the story and he basically planted his church around the table. Yeah. And this is why I love your podcast. Um, 'cause he was just going around throwing dinner parties, right? Yep. He was inviting people to have meals together and they were like sharing life.

And they would, the, the guest list was sketchy. Yep. You know, anybody was invited. And peop the religious leaders criticized them because of that. They're like. This guy eats with unclean hands, you know, he has bad table manners. He is not doing the ritual cleansings and look at the people who are at his table center.

Yeah. But that's basically how he started the church is around food and tables and community and [00:19:00] in that relational kind of space, people's lives were transfigured. So what we do with like a fresh expression is we do a lot of dinner churches, which is specifically just church around the table. Um, but we do it more, more dialogical than Monolog.

Andrew Camp: Yep.

Michael Adam Beck: We'll do a quick little clip from like a Jesus story and then we'll share that, you know, three to five minutes and then we'll ask some questions. Hmm. Or we'll start with like, in tattoo par Church. We go around, everybody shares this story behind their tattoo,

Andrew Camp: right?

Michael Adam Beck: And so you got Christians, non-Christians, uh, everything in between, all gathered in this tattoo parlor.

And we're, some of us are clearly, you know, Jesus people. And we bring that into the conversation. Other people are bringing other stuff. But when you create that space for that conversation and, and just share Jesus in the midst of that and, and know that his risen self. Is it work in that space? Like he's moving in in people's lives and in that conversation.[00:20:00]

So that's kind of what we do. So it starts more with community and and creating belonging. Mm-hmm. And then believing comes at the pace of grace for every person and maybe never at all.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Michael Adam Beck: And so some people that participate in our fresh expressions, I could, I could name across several right now, they self-proclaimed atheists, right?

But they show up every week. They're part of the community. They help make coffee, they do stuff they set up. So creating that space for belonging where people can know that koinania. And then we just watch the Holy Spirit work on people. As they, as they whatever pace, you know, um, the Lord is working in their life and calling them to himself.

Andrew Camp: Wow. There's a lot to unpack there. It's beautiful. Like, no, like it's great 'cause it is like, you know, 'cause one other thing that stuck out to me, and I've heard other, uh, people mention it, uh, like David Fitch has mentioned it, of like this idea that we go into the world as guests, [00:21:00] not as hosts. And I think what you were mentioning, you know, a lot of our.

Preaching or, you know, we wanna teach people into the kingdom. And so we're hosting, we're, we're in charge. But the posture of a guest, you know, uh, changes it where, like you said, you know, you can listen to the stories, you can see the Holy Spirit being the, the true host and hosting and making people and guiding people into their discussion.

Um, and so I think that's just such an important posture to take, you know, where it. We, we go into the spaces people are as guests, not with the answers, um, but maybe willing just to listen,

Michael Adam Beck: right? Yeah. Um, the, the end of the home field advantage, right? Like, yeah. Um, what I, what I try to teach our team, a, a lot of how we go about this is centered in Luke 10, one through nine.

So, um, for our listeners, that's where Jesus sends them out two by two to. [00:22:00] Um, they tells 'em, travel light, leave your stuff behind. You know, go, that's gonna be dangerous. There's sheep, hmong wolves out there. Find the person of peace and that person's peace will rest on you. Your peace will rest on them.

There'll be a peace exchange. Do life at their table. Eat whatever set before you. Yeah, right. And, and then he'll bless. Proclaim the kingdom. That's his, I don't even, it's his church planning strategy. It's his. It says changing the world strategy. Right? So it's not about hospitality. I like to teach our team.

It's about guest totality. Hmm. And, and you are the recipient of grace. You're the recipient of peace. You're the recipient of the hospitality, of the people that you're sent to. So our whole thing is like, who are the persons of peace? Um, like the director of the rehab that lets us come in on Monday night in our facility and do church or the tattoo parlor shop owner.

Who lets us come in and, and do that, or our burritos, um, Tijuana Flats where [00:23:00] we have our burritos and Bibles the manager who lets us come in the store and have Jesus conversations and eat burritos. Those persons of peace, they're hosting us. And then our job is to be good guests.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Um,

Michael Adam Beck: and for so long the church has just been able to play, host and, you know, come to us.

Our building, we'll, we're doing hospitality team teachings, right? Yeah. You go through the hospitality training and you get to be on the hospital. And we should still do those things. And I'm, the fresh expressions way is not saying let's not do inherited traditional church. Right. We only do, we're saying we need both and we need, yeah.

Temple and table. We need both, but we, a lot of Christians just don't know how to do the the table thing or that second piece. We, we've just been able to invite people and say, come to our stuff and all the greatest blunders of mission history have been with that idea, right? Yep. Like, we have the stuff, we have the resources, we're gonna go, and then you get like the replacement model of MI mission, which is Conor [00:24:00] literally coming in and like wiping people out or.

The ennoble meant model of mission where, um, European enlightenment culture we're gonna go ennoble, all the other, you know, inferior people out there. Um, those are really just harmful, bad things where Jesus whole way was, you go empty yourself, right? Right. Kenosis, listen, build relationships. And through that, you know.

At table and healing each other, the kingdom manifests through that. Hmm.

Andrew Camp: Wow. Uh, again, there's so much goodness about the community you're talking about because it is, um, you know, if we're going to think through what it means to belong in this culture, like we're going to have to change the way we do it and we're going to have to listen.

You know? 'cause like you said, Jesus built community round tables with misfits, um, you know, and he invited all to the table. And so I, you know, [00:25:00] I was reflecting on your book and I was like, okay, like it seems like Jesus' story and invitation is an exercise and, and how to sit at tables with people who we vehemently disagree with and yet are still willing to love.

Um, 'cause I think that's the invitation, you know? Um, 'cause too many, it's so easy to get siloed, you know, and not, which isn't the true expression of community. And so like, how do we sit at tables with people we. We will vehemently disagree with. And like, I'm guessing recovery programs have helped you do that.

'cause you, I'm, I'm guessing you've heard some, some crazy ideas mm-hmm. Um, through recovery, but you've still, you still show up and you still love. And so how can recovery your, this idea and even recovery groups model how to sit with people who we may vehemently disagree with?

Michael Adam Beck: Yeah, I love this. And if, if this is too political or off base, just reign me back in here.

But [00:26:00] I'm just sit sitting here thinking about, you know, the Pope's death. Yeah. Um, uh, and this, this morning we found out about that and I. One of the last things that he did was sit down with JD Vance. Right?

Andrew Camp: Right.

Michael Adam Beck: And the pope was very public about not really agreeing with No, a lot of the administration, current administration policies, but sat and they had a conversation and I don't really know the details of that, but I imagine they have some differences, at least minor about things.

And yet he made space for that. And yeah, in the recovery community, we, we know everybody's different and, and the goal of, um, recovery is not to convert people, right? Mm-hmm. Um, we're, we're a program of attraction rather than promotion, and we're, we're just trying to live a life of recovery and be of service to others.

And then by doing that, you know, it strengthens our own recovery. So this is just. I know a lot of people struggle with with this, [00:27:00] but for me it's just has been a natural part of my spiritual development. Like when we go to Higher Power Hour, this is a state facility, so it's a, some people are court ordered to be there.

Some people have gone through the self, uh, admission into detox, kind of. So one of the, our Persons of Peace, um, Megan, who's the director of the, the center. Says, you know, you can't call it church and you can't, you know, there's certain boundaries you have to, so we, in the beginning, we say, Hey, we know everybody here is coming from different spiritual spaces, and maybe you have different ideas about your higher power.

But what we're here to do is we know every relapse, 100% of the time comes down to a failure to enlarge your spiritual life. Hmm. So that's the purpose of Higher Power Hour. We're gonna all learn from each other as a community of equals. And everybody gets to speak as an equal into the space. And some of us are coming from a Jesus space,

Andrew Camp: right?

Michael Adam Beck: And some are not. So in that dynamic, people feel free to come out and share kind of where their [00:28:00] spirituality is. And my job in that is not to like convert, okay, let's do the Romans road now and Sinner's Prayer. Sometimes people do respond in that way, and I'm always grateful to pray with somebody in that moment and it's beautiful.

Yeah. But that's not necessarily what we're trying, it's not like a. Conversion tactic kind of thing. We really do believe that Jesus has risen. Right? Yeah. And he really is in that room. Yeah. I believe he's involved in every person's life in that room, whether they call his name or not. I, I know that he's there before we get there and, and I'm just trying to trust him and trying to do my best imperfectly and failing at it.

And be the aroma of Christ in a way that people are like, Hmm, maybe that Christian thing, you know, is not as bad as I originally thought or Right. So, yeah, that's the thing in community with others, right? Yeah. Then we, we experience God's love.

Andrew Camp: No, [00:29:00] we do. And it starts, you know, for you, you have these sort of three values.

That I think underline, you know, everything you wanna do, you know, it's original goodness, original trauma and original unity. Um, and with original goodness, you, you want us to start not with that we are all sinners in need of God's grace, but that we were created already good and infinitely worthy of, of divine love.

And so how is that like, that's a different starting point than. Maybe many of us were taught as evangelicals, like we're sinner in need of redemption. So how does starting with goodness help you and how can it help us create more life enriching community? I.

Michael Adam Beck: Yeah, and this is what kind of got me put into the heretic camp here.

So I guess I'll go ahead and accept it. But, um, so the Bible doesn't start with you suck and you're terrible and there's nothing you can do about it, [00:30:00] you know? No. It starts, it starts with You are good.

Andrew Camp: Yep.

Michael Adam Beck: That God creates the world good and God creates everything in the world. Good _tov_ is the Hebrew word, and God creates us and we get the first very good when he gets to humans, right?

Yeah. Very _tov_. Very good. Yep. Um, and that's our Imago Dei. Um, the goodness we're creating the image of a good God made of good material that God made and spoke and took mud and shaped us, and formed us and breathed them to us, you know, ak And we become nefesh living beings in his image. That's the starting point of the Bible.

And so I think our evangelism should start with that, with people. Mm-hmm. It's not like telling 'em how terrible they are and, uh, bullhorn in them, but, but really affirming the good that they already are, that God has already stamped God's divine image on 'em. The next movement of that is the original trauma though.

So I would say we're not all good, right? No. We have this original goodness that's [00:31:00] baked into us. By the way, this is just Wesleyan Theology 1, 1 0 1. It's not really new. It, it's been lost for a long time, I think. But

Andrew Camp: yeah.

Michael Adam Beck: Um, that's where you get like the total depravity kind of thing. And I can, you know, I can accept that, that, that there's a piece of us that's broken, right, that comes from this original trauma is wound that we all have, we need healing from that.

Wounded people act out of their, their woundedness. Right? And they do bad things and all of that. We're all in that space where all of us in some way have been wounded. We carry that in being sin that has to be healed by Jesus. And then there's that, that final movement. So Wesleyans talk about Prevena grace, justifying grace.

Sanctifying grace. And that's where I like the way Thomas Merton frames this though, that that's the oneness that we already are. That, yeah. That we're not, one is actually the distortion. That's the illusion that we ego, self and distorted false mask and separation. Um, [00:32:00] but actually when we are in, when we discover Christ discovering us, um, we actually see we're actually unified with all human beings, all of time, everywhere.

Um, and that we really are a oneness. So I think what the world hears and just let me be a little bit like. Um, facetious with it, but they hear us saying, you suck. There's nothing you can really do about it. But there's a really good God who loves you and he loves you so much, he punished the hell out of his own son on a cross.

And through this act of divine child abuse you, if you accept it, can receive eternal life and you go to this beautiful heaven city place rather than an eternity in hell. Um, if you just believe this stuff and accept it. And I don't think that divine child abuse is happening on the cross. I think we we're seeing a crucified God on the cross.

We're seeing God himself take all the pain and sin of the world into his own body and [00:33:00] breaking its power and giving us resurrection life. So I. There is good news in that the, it's the way we framed it and presented it is I start with the goodness that people are and yeah, we, most of us, especially recovery people, people who we know, we, we know we got issues.

Right, right. We don't need anyone to help us convince us of that usually. No. We need a healer and, and we need to find the goodness in ourself. Forgiving ourselves and self-compassion is usually a big struggle for a lot of humans. Yeah. And so we can create space where we can affirm the goodness of people, right?

It's the kindness of God that leads us to repentance We love because he first loved us. So what if we create communities where people can find their own goodness and respond in that way rather than, oh, punishment gonna go to hell. Like the good news for me is Jesus came into my living hell. I was already in hell.

I was already [00:34:00] separated from God and myself and the world and he pulled me out of that. And I think that's a lot the experience of a lot of people. So the good news of that is that Jesus offers us that now. Right,

Andrew Camp: right. No, for sure. 'cause you meant, you quote Thomas Merton of like, um, Christian Love isn't about the will to love, but it's about accepting the love that already is there.

Um, I think I'm paraphrasing it, but um, but it is, it's not willing myself to love, but it's recognizing the love. That is inherent in God through his creation, through, you know, other people, um, through his church. Um, you know, so if I can experience that love in some way, you know, and it can rid myself of this performance based Christianity, uh, you know, yeah.

Yeah. Go ahead.

Michael Adam Beck: Absolutely. And I, I feel like actually science, um, validates the original goodness of human beings. So I do a lot in the book with like the [00:35:00] concept of compassion,

Andrew Camp: right?

Michael Adam Beck: The sensitivity to suffering and self and others with a desire to alleviate and prevent it. And if we look back early hominids, right?

We see massive, um, injuries and wounds and debilitating diseases. And even early hominids had the capacity. Uh, to care for each other and to to be compassionate. So you, you see healing in the bone record of people that would've been debilitated. Hmm. Human beings. Charles Darwin said, sympathy is our greatest instinct.

I. Hmm. Um, not, not, he wasn't the survival of the fittest guy that was Herbert Spencer who came along later. Right, right. But he actually did a lot with emotion and that human emotion and the ability to feel empathy and care for one another and love each other is the defining thing about human beings.

And all, all species have this to some level, but humans are in a, in a way, like wired. Our brains, our physiology, everything, fight flight response. The vagus nerve, that's where compassion [00:36:00] happens. So we're literally designed to care about each other and to love. That's good, right? Yeah. So if science is saying, we're good, and the Bible's saying We're good, and why do we measure ourselves by our worst mistakes in life or by our, our, our bad stuff?

The cumulative goodness of most people I know, right? Like most of us, every day we're trying to do kind things for people that nobody sees. Yep. We're trying to help people where we're. You know, I think most human beings are like that. But then, and obviously there are always exceptions to the rule and there's evil and there's demonic.

Like I believe in all that stuff. Yeah. But for the most part, most people I know are actually good 'cause we're creating the image of a good God and we're trying to live that out. And we wanna take those big mistakes or those big failures and define ourselves by that. And the world does that, right?

Andrew Camp: Yep.

Michael Adam Beck: You know, cancel culture and all this stuff. We don't need to be doing that as the church. Right. Yeah. We, we need to help people find that worth and [00:37:00] that affirming that goodness and see how God can help that flourish in us.

Andrew Camp: No, it is, you know, and it community feels like such a needed gift that we can offer the world and yet such an impossible task, you know, right now, um, given the climate.

Um, and that we don't want to sit with people like we demonize the other side. You know, and so where I can affirm my goodness, I, I can be quick to disaffirm the goodness in other people. Like, oh, you said that you must be a horrible person. Like if you voted for the wrong party, you're not part of this.

Right? Um, and so, you know, again, if this gift of Jesus is learning to sit with people who are who disagree, you know, we disagree with like what role does still, does boundaries play? Like how do we cultivate a safe community? Um, given, you know, [00:38:00] trauma too, like, you know Yeah. Because we bring our trauma into it and we're gonna hurt other people.

And so we wanna provide a safe holding space to deal with trauma, but also welcome people and have good boundaries. So like, how do you, how do you hold boundaries and keep boundaries so that your community can stay safe?

Michael Adam Beck: Yeah, I love that question. And, um, I, I don't wanna keep drawing upon, you know, 12 step fellowships, but it, it's kind of, you know, the world that I live in and I know it's not the answer to everything, but, um, we just have some really good ground rules, some principles that hold the community together.

A clear mission, a clear process, the 12 steps. Then we have the 12 traditions with things like, it's not about, you know, people, uh, before personalities, you know, um, just those simple how we're gonna function. There's no leader. Um, every group is autonomous. Um, those clear kind of guidelines are really helpful to, to, uh, mitigate that [00:39:00] kind of damage and harm that can happen.

Wesleyan. So we have this thing that we say that comes from Wesley. Like, do all the good you can, all the places you can, all the ways you can and do no harm. Hmm. So the key thing with anything that we start is, um, we don't wanna further harm people. So that's training with my leaders. It's having a, a, a small group of people that my wife and I are really discipling.

So we gather them together once a month in our home. I work with the guys, Jill works with the ladies, and we do like, literally like band meeting, sanctification kind of stuff.

Andrew Camp: Wow.

Michael Adam Beck: Small group. Just, you know, how did we sin and how we, how we progressing with our spiritual life. Um, and I make sure those people are good and, and, and healthy and I'm trying to support them and nourish them as they lead the things that we're doing.

There's times in meetings where, uh, gatherings where people say things that you have to correct in the moment and say things like, [00:40:00] you know, that actually could be really harmful for some people in the circle, what you just said there. We try to honor every contribution, and sometimes when something's way out, left field, kind of, we, every person gets to share as an equal, right?

But then we'll say things like, here's one way that, think about that. Here's another way that maybe. Christians have thought about this for about 2000 years, or here's a specifically Wesleyan way to think about what you just shared. So we're, we're honoring, we're bringing it in, but when things are harmful, we have to name that.

And then there are times we've had to tell people, this group's probably not for you. Or we've had to meet with people after and say, Hey, you have to either stop, you know, this kind of behavior or saying these kind of things or. Um, you're not gonna be welcome to come here anymore. It's sad when that has to happen, but it's something that has to happen as a leader to do that, to protect the other people that are involved.

Andrew Camp: That makes a lot of sense and I appreciate that wisdom and um, again, it seems the 12 recovery programs have a lot to [00:41:00] offer as we think through, okay, how do we form community? Like we don't need to reinvent the wheel always, like there's good resources that. Might be just outside the church, but within the church walls, um, that we can, you know, use some of their ideas, you know, and think through what it means to do this community.

And so for list, for my, so for us who are longing for community and wanting something new or different, or just asking different questions, like besides starting a dinner church or beside like. How do you help people just start, like where, where is the starting point? What's a small step, um, that people can begin to take that might help them form and lean into better community?

Michael Adam Beck: For sure. You know, I think to frame it, um, in the church we do a lot of extrinsic motivation, so this is like something external to yourself. Kind of telling you, [00:42:00] you should do this, you should do that. Um, 'cause the Bible says it, or the church or whatever. Right. What we're doing with like the fresh expressions approach, uh, is intrinsic motivation.

Mm-hmm. So it's asking questions of my people, like, what is the Holy Spirit stirring in your heart? You know, what's your wicked problem? What's that thing that keeps you up at night that you notice all the time? That's not gonna probably be resolved in our lifetime. But you just have a, you know, passion for that thing.

Like for me, that's recovery, it's overdose, it's, yeah. All the things that, um, yeah, that, that, um, I've been part of my experience, but what's that for you? Right. For each person. And then it's as simple as we say, don't do, like, our life is already full. Right? Crazy amounts of stuff. You, we, we just, multiple jobs, all that.

Um, so don't. Add more stuff to your life. Hmm. But can you find a friend? Do something you would already do in a place you would already do it? [00:43:00] And can you think of that, how that might become its own little spiritual community? Its own little pocket of communal life in Jesus. So like some people, they're not gonna start Tattoo Parlor Church, right?

They're, they're not, you know,

Andrew Camp: no tattoos, Nope, no tattoos. For me, tattoo Parlor Church is not an, you know, probably my best place to start.

Michael Adam Beck: Exactly. So that's probably not you, but like what, what do we do? Burritos? You know, I would sit at Tijuana Flats who has a hot bar and just great burritos. I would eat that with a couple people if even it was just us showing up.

Right. Right. Um. Uh, you know, dog Park Church, one of my, my 70-year-old, uh, what laypeople started a church in a dog park called Paws of Praise. Larry. Yeah. And he just gets people who love their dogs and they unleash their dogs and they run around and play and they circle up and they do a little sermon and a prayer.

So what is that for you? Um, 'cause a lot of people, they're finding some kind of community, right? They're, and sadly, many [00:44:00] people aren't. Right. Right. That's the other part of it. Doing things you like to do together, practices that come together. Can you find a friend or more couple, do something you like to do together.

Share your faith as part of a, a larger picture of, of life together, and make it not weird and not sketchy and just do what organically is happening in the room. So that's kind of, I think any human can do this. And the other part of this is like Jesus equipped and gifted every priest in the priesthood of all believers to do this.

We've made this so overly complicated and there's like church planner people, and then there's professional priests and pastors, and none of it is faithful to the design of Jesus church, right? He took everyday ordinary people, empowered them with the kerygma, the simple treasury of Jesus stories. Yeah. Go out and share those.

Do life together around the table. [00:45:00] It's any human can do that. You don't have to have a master's degree in divinity or, um, any of that. So I think that's the starting point. Just get a couple people around, some hobby, passion, interest, something you like to do. Identify some third place you like to do that in, or maybe it's your home or your work.

Um, get together, do that, and then find out what spiritual elements you could introduce. Um, as, as you go along or what the community's comfortable. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And,

Andrew Camp: and then taking that posture of being a guest, you know, not coming with a plan. You know, within few weeks the X, y, and Z are going to happen.

But I think just this open-handed posture as you're inviting us into of, okay, spirit, what are you, where are you working? What am I supposed to cooperate with you in? Um, yeah. And then what's not mine to bring to this, you know, community? Um, yeah,

Michael Adam Beck: [00:46:00] exactly.

Andrew Camp: Uh, no, I love that. You know, and I love finding those places you're already venturing into.

'cause like you said, we don't need to add more, you know, we probably need to subtract a little bit, but where are those places we're already hanging out? Um, and where can you find maybe a little more community or be a little more intentional? Absolutely. Um, you know, and just listening to stories, I think sometimes listening to another person's story can be a profound act of love.

Michael Adam Beck: Yeah. I think the coolest thing that we teach in the fresh expression movement is, is this thing called the listening First journey, or the loving first journey somehow. Yeah. But it's just the basic spiritual practices of Jesus, right. So you listen to God, to the community, you love the people around you and serve them.

Some people wanna kill the word serve 'cause it comes off as uh, whatever. But it's really just loving and building community as you build community, learning each other's names, stories, [00:47:00] getting to know each other, spending time together. You know, time is the fertilizer of good relationships. So just consistency of getting together.

Then you explore spirituality, shared Jesus discipleship, whatever you wanna call that component. Some people get freaked out about that. So that can be many things. Right? Right. It can be. Some communities are ready for a Jesus story, and they're like, Hey, we know you're a Christian, so tell us some stuff that Jesus said and let's talk about it.

But sometimes it's like, um, a poem that we all, mm-hmm. We just read the poem and we talk about it together. Or I'll literally sometimes take out a phone, my phone and have like a playlist for every state for like, um, homegrown, uh, musical artists in each state. Okay. I'll play a song and we'll talk about what's the spirituality of this song.

Hmm. Does anybody hear anything, uh, spiritual outta that? So people think, oh, it's now we gotta do some sermon or something. Not always. It, it can be all kind of different [00:48:00] dimensions, um, that, that happened there. Like our tattoo talk is kind of the sermon when we do that tattoo project, right? But then after you do that for a while, church, you, you really start to have koinonia and then.

You are baptizing people or you're having the Lord's Supper for whoever's interested in that at work. Like those more formal kind of church elements Yeah. Start to become part of that community. But yeah, sorry, that was a really long answer.

Andrew Camp: No, it's a great, it's, I, I wanted you to touch on that loving first journey.

'cause I think it does provide a, a framework, um, for us to think through how to do this, um, you know. It does get tricky as we build relationships of how do we bring in the spiritual, but I think if we believe that the spirit is working and that Jesus is alive and working in this world, in every person who he created in his image, then some they're doing something that brings them alive.

You know? And so how can you start having [00:49:00] spiritual conversations that maybe not introduce Jesus right away, but at least get them thinking about what's stirring inside them. Yeah. And how is their body responding? You know? Um, exactly. You know, we live, I live in Flagstaff, Arizona, which is a big outdoor place.

We live near Sedona. And so you're, you know, we love to hike, you know, and so like, hiking makes me feel alive. And so it's like, how do you help people see, okay, is hike, you know, how does hiking help me connect with God or connect with a spiritual world, um, in, in different ways? And so, yeah, I think there's ways to do it.

It just, we got. We get frightened and we don't want to be weird. Um, and we don't wanna break the relationship. Um, right. And so, but to take those steps is, is, is a challenge and to own that.

Michael Adam Beck: Yeah. Do you, do you do like a hiking, church, hiking, fresh expression, or not?

Andrew Camp: Not yet. Not

Michael Adam Beck: yet. Because I would [00:50:00] be down for that.

I'd show up for that.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, and there's like, we literally live in like the largest ponderosa pine forest in the world. Um, you know, and we have the Grand Canyon an hour and a half away. Um, you know, and so there's, again, there's ways to do it. Um, you know, and so how to do it well.

Michael Adam Beck: Absolutely.

Andrew Camp: Yeah,

Michael Adam Beck: that's exactly the kind of thing that, you know, that other people can connect around and, yep.

Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Or I just connected with, he's another podcaster down in Phoenix, but he does, his brand is called Communion Wine Co. But he'll do wine tasting events at local wine bars and then have spiritual conversations with the wine tastings. Um, you know. Allows, you know, people and he have ways for people to ask questions anonymously, um, but can have different discussions centered around wine, [00:51:00] um, and spiritual conversations and stuff.

And so, um, we're trying to figure out a way to do one in Flagstaff just to, you know, connect the two of us, but then also like, okay, like this is a fun way to connect with people. Yeah. In.

Michael Adam Beck: Yeah. And, and every time you do that right, you create a little pocket of community that can heal people's lives and make one little, you know, dent in the epidemic of loneliness and isolation that is killing people every day.

Andrew Camp: Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. Uh, well Michael, I've loved this conversation and it's a question I ask all of my guests as we begin to wrap up. Um, just 'cause it's a good summary question. What's the story you want the church to tell?

Michael Adam Beck: I think the story that I want the church to tell is that there is, uh, resurrection and death, and I think [00:52:00] we need to come to terms with the fact that churches, we have known it is dying. And that's not a sad story. Hmm. It's, it's a joyful and hopeful story. I. 'cause there were wonderful things about the church that no, no community of people across history have done more like to shape the world into more loving, just equitable, you know, world than, than followers of Jesus.

But, um, there's also some things that were really limiting and, and cause a lot of harm and the power structures and the hierarchy and the, those things have really, um. Damaged. Um, they're, they're kind of a blemish on the face of the bride of Christ. So we have an opportunity right now to kind of sit in that and, and, and watch Jesus bring something new out of the ashes.

Mm-hmm. Um, and so the, the story I hope that [00:53:00] we can tell, I just get. It's kind of bummed out all the, all the stories in everywhere I go. Denominational spaces mostly, but it's like we're dying decline, you know, membership, we're, you know, after COVID, now it's even worse, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And it is true. I mean, we can't sugarcoat that the data's there.

It shows that, but it's also, I think God's doing something in the midst of it. Yeah. Um, and things like, you know, gathering people at tables and sharing Jesus and. And ways that connect with people where they do life. I think that's really exciting stuff that, that the Holy Spirit's up to in the world.

Andrew Camp: Oh, for sure.

I love that. Um, yeah. 'cause it is, it is a challenging time, but like you said, there's, if we truly believe in the Easter message, which we're recording the day after Easter, right. And we have to believe that out of death comes resurrection, that, you know, God can always make things new. Um, [00:54:00] you know, and it may look different and we may have to give up what we once held dear, but, um, all shall be well.

Yes.

Michael Adam Beck: Amen.

Andrew Camp: Um, and then some fun questions about food to wrap up too, just 'cause since, since I love food. Some fun questions. It's always fun to hear big people. Different response. So what's one food you refuse to eat?

Michael Adam Beck: Brussel sprouts. Okay.

Andrew Camp: Why Brussels Sprout makes them anyway.

But

they're good for you.

Michael Adam Beck: They're good for you. I just, I don't know if I was traumatized as a kid. I don't know where this comes from, Andrew, but I'm like, just the thought of 'em. I, I, maybe my grandma tried to make me eat 'em when I was little. I don't know.

Andrew Camp: Fair enough. Yeah. There's a lot of trauma surrounding Brussels sprouts.

Probably because grandmas boiled boiled them to death and they turned mushy and disgusting. I've been trying to make a casino. Yeah. Okay. Fair [00:55:00] enough. Yes, I, yeah, deep fried, Brussels sprouts are delicious, but anything deep fried is usually delicious.

Michael Adam Beck: So doesn't that take the health element away?

Andrew Camp: Or, probably, but, you know, you know.

Um, then on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Michael Adam Beck: Oh, man, that's so hard. I, I, I'm a foodie. I. I guess since I've done church in a burrito place for like 12 years, I have to say that I'm, um, I, I will, if I died in a taco with a taco or burrito in my hand, I'd be a happy man.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. Well, that perfectly segues to my last question because there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in, if you knew you only had one last meal to enjoy, what would be on your table. And so if Michael had one last meal, what would be included in his table?

Michael Adam Beck: Dang it. This is gonna kind of contradict what I just said, but if I could have a perfectly made piece of lasagna [00:56:00] Mm.

Where the ricotta, you know, fluffs up like a little blanket and it's, yeah. It's layered and solid. I think if I had to, if that was my last request for a meal, I would, I would go with that.

Andrew Camp: Hmm. That does sound delicious. Do is, do you have a favorite lasagna recipe or place to get, like where it comes close?

Or is this an elusive dream you're always chasing.

Michael Adam Beck: Um, it's definitely my wife's lasagna. Uh, she, she doesn't make it much, so it's like a rare sacramental thing 'cause I know it takes a lot of work and stuff. But, um, yep. Yeah, she's definitely makes the best lasagna I've ever had.

Andrew Camp: That's awesome.

Michael Adam Beck: So shout out to Jill Beck.

Andrew Camp: There you go. Perfect. Um, Michael, I've really enjoyed this conversation and if people want to connect or learn more, um, about fresh expressions or your work, where could they find you?

Michael Adam Beck: For sure. So I have a website, Michael Adam Beck dot com is probably the easiest way to connect. Um, I also do [00:57:00] substack. Um, so our substack is called Passional Church.

Um, Michael, Adam Beck and I do kind of just a weekly little reflection and do a lot of stuff there in the Substack, so.

Andrew Camp: Awesome.

Michael Adam Beck: Um, and then all the normal stuff, you know, Facebook, I. Trying to make my way into Blue Sky and so y'all come join Andrew and I in Blue Sky. We're trying to make it,

we're trying to make it happen.

Move my way out of Twitter, but yeah.

Andrew Camp: Yep, I hear you. And also make sure to buy Never Alone, um, which is a great book. Really outlines, you know, what we've talked about, but gives you some, um, some great stories, great ideas, um, and a framework to think through community. Uh, and so yeah, never alone. It's now available through Harold's press.

Uh, so, uh, thank you for your ministry to the church, to what you're doing, uh, the hope you're bringing, uh, yeah, your gift, Michael. So thank you. [00:58:00]

Michael Adam Beck: So you brother, I appreciate it. Thanks for listening, everyone.

Andrew Camp: If you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing it with others.

Thanks for joining us on this episode of the Biggest Table where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. Until next time, bye.