The Biggest Table

Episode 16 (Amy Dolan)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.

And today I'm joined by Amy Dolan. A little bit about Amy. She is the host of the Feeding People podcast, founder of Sunday Supper Church, and former strategic consultant for the Chicagoland Good Food and Health Care Initiative.

Amy believes that eating together has the power to dispel loneliness, restore dignity, and create joy as we share sacred moments with each other around beautiful tables. Of all the tables she created and hosted, weeknight dinners with her husband Kelly and her Pitbull Maddox in their Chicago apartment are her favorite.

Uh, so thanks for joining me, Amy. It's great to have you as a guest.

Amy Dolan: Yes. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And we are, you found me, um, on Instagram and that's how we've sort of connected in just the past even few weeks. And so [00:01:00] again, it's one of the joys of podcasting is you. Not randomly, but strategically get to meet other cool people who are interested in in food and faith And these conversations and and so what's been your journey in this food and faith arena for yourself?

Amy Dolan: Yes, that's why I I was doing some research for my podcast and came across this yours. And it was so cool to see so much of the overlap in our stories. Of course, our stories are unique, but so much overlap. And, you know, for me and my faith and my theology is always connected to food. And so to find other people where those things are true too, I just love.

So it's been so nice connecting with you. So nice to be here today. Yeah. And yeah, so my journey towards, um, food and faith, I think. You know, all of our lives are just always a journey, right? And always seem, I think, winding and mysterious. And maybe that's the privilege of life. [00:02:00] And most days I feel that, like, how did I get here?

What's, what's going on? Right. But. When I really stop and think about the journey of my life and the path of my life to this moment, at least, it really does make sense. And even as mysterious as it feels sometimes, or unknown as the future feels, it feels like it is like there was a A path towards where I am now.

And that makes me excited to see the path forward. Like what else where there'll be, right? Um, so I grew up in both a Jewish and a Christian home. My mom is Jewish. My dad is Christian. And we, uh, were raised with both of those traditions. And, um, both of those traditions to me carry such sacred tables and rituals around food.

You know, in my, uh, Jewish family, we celebrated the holidays and it was always centered on food, you know, delicious kugel [00:03:00] and challah and brisket. And I have so many memories of being in my great grandma's, my grandma's, and my aunt's houses with all of that delicious food. And in my Christian family, the same thing.

I mean, Easter feasts, Christmas feasts, it's just always about food. And so I think all of that was in me with those traditions, even from such a very young age. And so, um, when I went to Bible college and graduated and started started in ministry pastoring children and families right away. It's like, even though I wasn't doing food work, it was still there.

And I look back now as I was beginning my ministry career and I was, uh, newly married and I just started cooking like as a creative outlet. Cause. Maybe you know this, Andrew, but there are some days that pastoring is a little stressful. You need something. Yes. You need something at night to kind of unwind [00:04:00] and kind of, you know, turn your brain in a different direction.

And, um, Cooking really became that for me. I had never really been a cook. I didn't really have many skills. And I, um, started watching Food Network shows and reading cookbooks and just trying things out. And, um, every Thursday night we invited one of our best friends over and me and my husband and our best friend would just eat.

Whatever I experimented with that day, and it was such a like surprising delight to find this creative outlet in food. And I thought, Oh, this is really a way to unwind, to transition, to kind of shake off the stress from the day and just express something. of myself in a different way than I had been during the day.

And then the reward of it all, to sit down with loved ones and them enjoy it and talk about it and connect was just, it just opened up my whole mind and body towards what else could [00:05:00] food be? What else could gatherings be? Um, and so there, my ministry career led me to finding, founding a dinner church in Chicago.

Where we created a church environment around tables on Sunday nights where we fed people. And through that, I met, uh, local Chicago farmers and food policy experts and food pantry workers who all helped us, um, connect their food and their resources with what we were doing at the dinner church. And that work is what led me to where I am now in, um, food equity in Chicago, really advocating and supporting the work of so many in this city.

city who are doing things to create greater access for people towards food.

Andrew Camp: No, it sounds like a delightful, like you said, a mysterious journey, uh, but full of surprises and goodness. Um, and something you touched on as a theme. I. I, I don't know if I keep hearing, but it seems prevalent in the past few episodes of this [00:06:00] use of food as a way of grounding, um, you or, you know, embodiedness.

Um, you used, um, sort of the theme as you were cooking after coming home from ministry. So what was it about food after a long day of ministry, which is very taxing? What was it about food that helped unwind or maybe transition you or get you in touch with something different than ministry may was allowing you to?

Amy Dolan: Yeah. Um, there's something about cooking. I think that really, Demands your attention. It demands your full attention in a way that other things I was doing during the day. I mean, obviously everything demanded my attention, but it was like in cooking, especially as I was just beginning and experimenting and trying things and learning.

You just really can't look away for a second, right? You can't look away, you can't check [00:07:00] your phone, you can't have other conversations. You just, you, you have a singular focus. And there was something about that for me that really like transitioned my mind from the day, from the stress. Sometimes, you know, if it had been a specifically stressful day in ministry, I would kind of obsess a little bit over in my head.

I should have said that differently. I should have done that differently. And cooking just didn't. allow for that. Cooking was just like, you know, it grounded me in the present. This is, I have to be here. Otherwise, this is not going to work out. And so I, I love that. And it was just such a different way of being and thinking.

And now, you know, my therapist said this to me, Recently, she said, you know how you know how dogs complete their stress cycle by shaking their bodies off. So a dog has every every time you know, finishes a walk or whatever, just does a full shake. And that's to complete the stress [00:08:00] cycle to say that is What I just did is over and I'm moving on and my and humans need that to humans need to complete those stress cycles in order to acknowledge what happened, move that energy and move to the next thing.

And so recently, my therapist and I were talking about additional ideas at the end of a day for. Completing the stress cycle, just a walk or, and she said, you know, cooking is your, is your completion of the stress cycle. It's like, you're so physical in your body as you're chopping, cooking, moving, running around the kitchen, opening the fridge that it's like, without even realizing it, you're just shaking it all off and then turning your mind towards what is, and, and I love.

I love that I now like, think of it that way. I receive it that way. Cooking at the end of a day just feels like such a gift to myself. And then once I am really rooted in the present and able to turn my mind towards like, if I'm cooking for [00:09:00] someone or if guests are coming over that night, then I can like, turn my attention towards them.

And my body is just filled with love. And, you know, as you're chopping and making things for people you love, there's just, there's no better feeling, but it's like, you got to shake off the day, complete all that stress. And then you can think towards, Oh, Oh, people I love are coming for dinner and I'm making something great for them.

And cooking has done all those things for me.

Andrew Camp: No, I love that idea. And I just want to invite our listeners to consider. Their own, what, what do you need to do to complete your stress cycle through the day, you know, and I know it's a great reminder for me because I'm coming back from work and many times I'm coming home to my kids, my wife, and so how do I transition, um, to be present, you know, because one of your big things was it helped you be present in the moment, which then enabled you to be More present with people around you, uh, to clear your mind of ministry.

And so, yeah, just for you listeners, [00:10:00] consider what might be your stress. Relief, your stress shake, um, for the day and, and maybe it's after the kids go to bed if you have kids, you know, um, but how can mealtime be transitioned, be a transition moment for you to be more present to the people at your table?

Like it was for Amy here. That's

Amy Dolan: nice. Yeah. Yeah, and it doesn't have to, you know, cooking can be like a lengthy process. So that can be a way of one way, but also like a stress cycle can literally be like shaking your body off before you walk in the door to your family or taking a deep breath or one more walk around the block.

It can be, and I forget that, like, it doesn't have to be a whole event. It can also just be something, you know, my dog shakes off so I actually take that as Q. Now when he shakes off, I just take it as opportunity to shake too. I'm like, why not?

Andrew Camp: No, yeah, no, I think it's just that physical reminder like that.

We're embodied creatures

Amy Dolan: and

Andrew Camp: have been created embodied. And yet [00:11:00] we want so often to not pay attention to what our body Needs in order to be more present. Um, and so I love that reminder from you about food as a moment, um, to, to relieve stress. So random question, as you were exploring food and you're having a friend over on Thursday, were there any epic fails like that you remember that you can, you can, maybe you cried at the moment cause I've been there, but now you laugh, laugh about.

Amy Dolan: I mean, I just feel like in those early days, there were so many, there were so many. And I just, the memory I have always is how gracious my husband and friend were. I was just trying everything and anything, all, there were no limits. to what I was trying. And I think that actually is so key when you're learning to cook.

Like you got to practice. Practice makes perfect. And also practice makes you, uh, aware of what your style is. Everyone has a cooking style and preference. Now I know that so [00:12:00] clearly because of all of those experiments, because of all of those tries, I think about, um, Rachel Ray had a turkey meatloaf that looked so delicious.

And it was like right before Thanksgiving when I was in this experimenting new cook phase. And they were like these little tiny mini turkey meatloaves you put in like, um, little tiny bread pans. And I was like, that sounds amazing. I had never made a meatloaf. I had barely cooked meat. And I was like, I love like a little, like a little spin on something like a little treat.

I'm like, it's not just a regular meatloaf. It's mini. It's mini. It has turkey, it's so exciting. And I'm not totally sure what happened exactly, but I always think of that. I'm like, those were just, that was something else though, you know, and you can only pour so much gravy over a meatloaf to hide all of its sins inside.

But, um, I'm pretty sure my husband and friends still ate it, which was so kind, [00:13:00] cause who knows? What was happening in there. But, um, I always think of that meatloaf when I think of those days.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, and it's great that you have friends that, and a husband that will be, be gracious and if something fails, we can always order pizza, you know, like, I mean, and we

Amy Dolan: did, we did that.

Yes. That's awesome.

Andrew Camp: So then as you honed your cooking style, what, what developed, like who, who is Amy in the kitchen now after how many, however many years it is. Yeah.

Amy Dolan: I love that question. Thank you for that. I like simple. I like few ingredients. I like, um, comfort and nourishment. I love vegetables. My husband is, um, plant based and so a lot of nights we have, um, Mostly plant based meals.

I eat, I eat animal meat though. So if he, if I make him a tofu version, I make myself a chicken version or, [00:14:00] um, but I like it. I like few ingredients. I like simplicity. I like, um, depth of flavor and I don't love a lot of time. Like I want it to be 30 minutes on a weekday, 40 minutes at best. Um, And I want to make it, I want to think about it and I want to be able to serve something really beautiful and really delicious, but not too complicated.

And, um, yeah, I, I really love, I lo I love shopping my farmer's market on Saturday and then letting those ingredients dictate our menu for the week. That is the most rewarding thing to me. I'm so annoying when we sit down to dinner and I say, you know, that's Salad is from Gorman Farms that dessert is from, you know, I just, and I, I, it's so annoying, but I, I love to, I love to be inspired by the ingredients of the [00:15:00] season ingredients by the farmers that I know, you know, if.

Kevin Gorman of Gorman Farms is like, Amy, I got the best tomatoes this week. Then I'm taking all his tomatoes and I'm thinking about it from there. What can we do that highlights these tomatoes? That's my favorite thing.

Andrew Camp: So what's, you know, you're in Chicago. Um, so what's, what's available right now? What, what's, what's seeming, you know, cause we're coming out of winter.

So it's not, you know, spring and summer produce is my favorite, but. Um, what's, what's fresh right now and what's inspiring you?

Amy Dolan: That's what's so fun actually about living. I live in downtown Chicago. I live in a very urban area and I just always say if I can shop local, if I can shop, uh, the farmers near me, literally anybody can in a Midwest.

Weather environment, right? Yes, we have, we go to Trader Joe's and the grocery stores for all our produce from December through [00:16:00] now because it's not available. Right. And I, I wish it was, but it's not, that's okay. Um, But our farmers market is just opening this last weekend was the first week and it is all the spring goodness, right?

It's the asparagus. I love asparagus season and I feel like that's what shopping The farmers market has taught me is the seasonality, right? So like for Four to five straight Saturdays at the farmer's market, literally all you're going to see is asparagus on everybody's table. And the first couple of weeks you're like this, I'm so happy.

Asparagus is, and by the fifth week you're like, I'm going to die if I eat one more. And I love that. I actually love that rhythm because then you close out, you say, you know, I'm going to die. For us, we show gratitude to the asparagus. We're like, thank you for that. Moving on. You know? And it's like, we rarely honestly eat asparagus after that.

[00:17:00] Sometimes for a treat, we pick it up in the grocery store or whatever. But we're like, what's next? What's next? And so it's asparagus right now. It's the spring peas. Um, it's the greens. My friend's a farmer and he grows all of the micro greens and the lettuces and stuff. stuff in his hoop house, so those are ready in early spring, which is so great, but it's really fun to watch in Chicago at the farmer's market where, you know, the first month may even to like early June, there's not much on the tables and I love that.

It's like, that is. That's reflective of the Earth. That's reflective of where we live. And by like, July to beginning of August, I got goosebumps as we're talking about early August here, Andrew. Yeah, yeah. It's, I always tell my husband, we walk in and like the end of July peak season, it's just like the tables are overflowing with food.

Fruit, we finally have fruit, we have vegetables, the corn is starting and it's [00:18:00] just, you can see the colors and the abundance and there's just, you know, everything is cheap cause everyone has so much and it's just right. This is where we live. This is where, what are we going to do now? Right. And it's just, I love that.

I love the seasonality of shopping, even in Chicago.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No. And it is something, you know, I, you know, my wife and I have lived in mountain towns for the past 10 years, 10, 11 years now. And it's, it's the same way where, you know, you're not, you know, cold climate, high elevation, short growing season, you know, um, it is, it is hard, um, but when you can walk in and see the plethora, um, especially in, in midsummer from tomatoes.

Um, to peaches to, you know, everything, um, it is beautiful. Uh,

Amy Dolan: it's the best what's in season by, you know,

Andrew Camp: I don't know yet where our farmers markets are just starting, you know, like [00:19:00] obviously being close to Arizona, like. You can probably find some different stuff. Some farmers might come up, but like farmers markets are just starting, you know, and people are just starting to plant, you know, I think we've, we've passed the last freeze finally.

Amy Dolan: Let's hope. Knock on wood, you know, probably we're going to have a snow storm next weekend because I

Andrew Camp: just said something, but

Amy Dolan: yeah,

Andrew Camp: like our app, we have, we have two apple trees and a cherry tree on our property and they're in full bloom and blossom. And so hopefully, you know, it's a. You know, cherry season is.

It's good to us again, like we had a huge bumper crop of sour cherries and we still have frozen cherries in our freezer of like,

Amy Dolan: which

Andrew Camp: has been fun to, to play with or try different jams or sauces and mustards even. So

Amy Dolan: that sounds amazing.

Andrew Camp: So we're, we're trying to get back into the gardening ourselves.

We got planter boxes this year to try to grow some [00:20:00] things. Um, so. Yeah. Yeah,

Amy Dolan: nothing better than that, right? No, nothing better than growing your own things and then when they're ready to eat and serve It's just like literally nothing better.

Andrew Camp: No, and again another thing that's jumped out is just the sacredness of soil Through this podcast of you know, getting your hands dirty and there's something about it As a, you know, talking to former pastors that when they got their hands dirty and soil, they, they found new life.

Yes. And so, um, yeah. There is something about the seasonality and soil that does regenerate our own bodies.

Amy Dolan: Yeah. It's, I mean, where we come from, the land. And so I always think like the soil is part of us, the land is part of us. And we were all, um, you know, created to coexist together and co create this beautiful world together.

And so when we are taking care of each other [00:21:00] and the land and the animals and. the water, then it's like the way it was supposed to be and harmony, um, exists and everyone and everything is thriving, but it's when we don't, when we put our, you know, selfish needs above the land and the soil, et cetera, that, you know, nobody, nothing thrives.

Andrew Camp: No, well, that's a great transition because you, you're a big proponent and your podcast is all about food equity and food justice issues. And so what has that journey been like? Cause that's a completely different, not completely different, but it's a, it's a different, avenue of experiencing food than just being in the kitchen and experiencing the joy.

Amy Dolan: Yeah. To me, my faith has always been connected to people who are hungry, and it feels to me like that is how Jesus maybe did things. [00:22:00] And so I feel like I am in constant pursuit to learn more about why Jesus was so connected to feeding people, why the hungry were his people, and, um, All the magic that there is in connection, faith, food, bodies, all of it, when we not only like feed each other, but gather together at tables, um, and eat together.

And so that has just always been part of kind of my life and my faith and, um, When I founded the Dinner Church and got connected to people doing food policies, specifically, I, it was just a whole nother world open for me and I started to learn, you know, how important the advocacy, advocacy side was, and how really, Everything affects every, you know, [00:23:00] food security, everything affects everything.

So for me, it's about food access and food choice, but really when people, um, lose the ability to have choice over their food or access to the food they want, also that is connected to their jobs, their employment, their housing. Healthcare, social safety nets, I mean, everything, right? And so, um, As I've moved deeper into this work, I've just realized for me, it's all about mutual care and it's all about, um, doing what I can to support people's access and power to their choices because so often, you know, well, I mean, Poverty is absolutely ruthless.

It is designed that way, right? And so, the minute that you [00:24:00] lose your job and lose income to be able to buy the food you need, you also lose access, most likely, to the choices that you would make. Make knowing your body, knowing your family's bodies, knowing the food that connects you to your family and your cultural traditions, et cetera, et cetera.

Right. And so I'm just so, um, committed to doing what I can in my work with my experience in my lane to increasing people's access to their choice for food. And I think so much of that is connected, obviously, to the money you have, the power you have, the privilege you have, of course, but also. Um, it's connected to making sure that people are able to have the dignity and the humanity to make those choices.

Right. I think for so many of us, um, if you've ever volunteered at a food [00:25:00] pantry or worked at a food pantry, or even, you know, seen someone asking for food on the streets or, you know, in Chicago here, every time a walked on the street or pull up to an intersection, someone is asking for food. And if you've ever been in any of those scenarios and you've had the opportunity to give someone food and, and they've said, no, it is most likely instilled in most of us that they're ungrateful, that they, um, should take whatever they're given.

If you're hungry enough, you'll eat everything. And we, I think most of us move towards places of judgment and like, well, You should just eat whatever you're given, right? And I think that's what we do in our country and what the system perpetuates in terms of taking people's choice and agency away from them.

And I actually, I mean, this was obviously this was in my body too. And I have, you know, moving in greater [00:26:00] depths towards food equity in my city. I am constantly having to read. teach my body that that narrative is not correct and right and what I'm working for. So now if I'm in my car and someone comes up and asks for food and I have a granola bar and I offer a granola bar and they say, no, I don't, I don't like that.

I tell him about that. I'm so happy they did that. I'm so happy in whatever this moment was for them and whatever season they are in their life right now, they had choice. And knowledge enough of their body to say no to me to that granola bar. That is a really great thing. Yeah. And I think that's for me, um, where I'm at in food.

How is it that God created each of us to, you mentioned him at like, know ourselves more, know who we're meant to be. And, Exercise that agency and choice because in food work, it just it is completely taken away a lot of times. And of course, there are [00:27:00] amazing food pantries, amazing emergency food places that are centered in choice.

And I love that. I love that kind of work in order to Really, um, remind people, you know, your body best, and even when you're hungriest and in the most stressful moment of your life, you still know your body best and you have the power in the agency to make choices for yourself.

Andrew Camp: There's one, I've rarely heard it tied and I love how you made the connection and it makes so much sense of tying it to human choice and dignity, and we're not here just to feed people, but to restore their humanity, to give them agency.

Cause when your agency is taken away, it is. soul crushing.

Amy Dolan: It's everything. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Right. And so to tie food equity to this, to choice and to agency and to dignity and not just [00:28:00] handouts, um, is such a beautiful picture and much more in line with who Jesus is and what the kingdom of God is. It's not just a, a free handout.

It's human dignity. It's agency. It's flourishing. Um, So these are big ideas, right? Like, and you know, you listen to them and you're like, okay, I'm overwhelmed. Like I'm here in Flagstaff, you're here in Chicago. Like, what does Chicago have to do with Flagstaff? And like, uh, I don't even know where to start.

Um, and so for our listeners, like, is there. What does this mean on the very practical side? Like what, how, how do we use our agency to

Amy Dolan: begin

Andrew Camp: to restore other agencies to people?

Amy Dolan: Yes. Great question. Couple of thoughts. First and foremost, I always tell people you just start. Today where you are and with what you have, because it is, it's so overwhelming.

And, um, for me, when I get [00:29:00] too into food policy and legislation and things are never going to change, I just fall into a deep pit of despair and I do nothing. Honestly. I'm just like, what does anything matter? Nothing is ever going to change. What does it matter? And that's not where we want to be. Right? So the way we start is just what is in front of me today.

I told a friend this the other day, I said, yes, have your dreams, have your big plans, write them all down, be working towards those, but then today say, what is in my food, what is literally in my pantry today that I could share a meal with someone to use is because. No doubt. Most of us have things in our pantry.

We could make a meal for someone today, who are the people in my life today that I could feed tonight, tomorrow, et cetera, is just start there. Right? Um, and I think that is key towards moving towards something. And it's like, we all have to start with what we have and who the people [00:30:00] are in our lives in order to, um, really care for each other and even move towards bigger dreams and thoughts.

And then I think, you know, I mentioned before, food is my lane and, um, I'm going to stay focused on food, gaining more access for people and choice and food security, but it's a whole, it's everyone's whole life. So if food is not your lane, then think about, is it, um, high, is it better? Labor practices, is it higher wages?

Is it more affordable health care? Is it, um, social safety nets that actually benefit people and aren't, you know, just unbelievably burdensome to use like, Unemployment like snap. And so what is it that is right in front of you that could housing? How could oh my gosh, housing, like, if [00:31:00] you have skills, or professional experience or know people like just get working on access to Affordable housing, housing for all people being able to choose where they want to live, etc.

You know, housing is not my lane. And so I'm just going to encourage those to do it while I stay focused on food. But that's what we all need to do is recognize poverty is ruthless. And the way out of this, the way out of everyone Having what they need and being able to live thriving, wonderful, beautiful lives that they were created and intended for is doing what we can do with what we have and also mutually caring for each other.

And I think that's the other part of this. That's so key is, you know, I don't know if you relate with this, Andrew, but like all my beginning years of ministry, I mean, this, I shouldn't even say beginning years, this is only just the last few years that this was, I learned this. Like, ministry was so one [00:32:00] sided.

I was the pastor who cared for everyone else's needs, and that felt so great when someone was hungry, when someone needed money, when someone, et cetera, et cetera, right? But then when anyone would ask what I need, it was like, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. And I just think, um, for those of us in positions working towards greater equity and greater access, we have to be in humble positions of mutual care, right?

So I have been in a season of great need this last year, and so many people have fed us and supported us and loved us. And Um, that was really hard. It was honestly really, really hard. I had not known that position before, but I can see how crucial that is. Now, now I feel like I am leading and dreaming and imagining a different world from such a different place after being cared for in such a way.

And I think, um, That [00:33:00] is the way out of all of this. This is the way towards thriving is being in a posture when it is your turn to give and feed, you give and feed. And when it is your turn to be fed and to receive, to be in such a humble position, to be able to say yes. Feed me, let's go, right? Um, because that, that is the way we were designed and that is the way we move forward.

It can't just be one sided all the time.

Andrew Camp: No. Um, again, so much of what you're saying is eliminating the hierarchical structure,

Amy Dolan: you

Andrew Camp: know, and, and realizing we're all co laborers in this and that we can't approach this from a position of white savior complex, but as, hey, we're in this together, and it's a mutually reinforcing circle, um, that I don't lose when I feed, [00:34:00] um, and I'm not lost when I get fed.

Um, but we're all in this together to, to grow and to, you know, uplift our humanity.

Amy Dolan: Yes.

Andrew Camp: So can you say more of that? You don't have to share details, but you just mentioned your position and your advocacy work has changed because you were in a position of receiving. What, how, what did, you know, how did that transform your, your work?

Amy Dolan: Yeah, I think I have felt, um, it felt so good, actually, to receive, and I don't know why I resisted that for so long. And in the, in the moments of, um, in the most stressful moments in this last year, in the most anxiety producing moments this year, I have come back to this mantra. I am [00:35:00] loved and well supported.

And it's in that that I can find peace, like this moment feels totally unbearable or, um, like there's, this is the, there's no way out of this moment. And I come back to that. I am loved and well supported and I can instantly bring back to mind. examples from last week, last month, et cetera, specific people who fed us, helped us, supported us, encouraged us, prayed for us, et cetera, et cetera, checked in.

And, um, I think just that has grounded me so much in thinking about, you know, Obviously, I hope that everyone is loved and well supported, but what about people who aren't? What about people who don't have family or friends or people in their life with resources to be able to feed them or support them or pray for them or check in on them?

Then what? And I've been thinking a lot about [00:36:00] how emergency food is not only like nourishment and energy for the body, but also a way to establish those networks, right? So, how can emergency food centers be places of friendship and connection? And if you're going regularly enough, there's someone who sees you and notices you and, and, asks how you're doing, or if you need an introduction to someone for an interview, or etc, etc.

Right? So I've been thinking a lot about that. People who don't have, is everyone loved and well supported? And if not, how do we help to create more ways for that? Right? Right. And I've also been thinking about how food, You know, this last season, like food, this last year, food taught me that, um, food serves many purposes.

And I think so often we think about it only as [00:37:00] nourishment, energy, calories, et cetera. And it is, but it's also. Rituals, connection, friendship, family, joy, memory, memory in good and bad ways, you know, there's some food I've eaten in this last year in some of my lowest moments that I swear I will never eat again because they remind me of those low moments that I don't want to think about again.

Amen. And food serves that purpose too, right? And so I've just been thinking a lot from that as food has served so many purposes for me in this last year of stress, how do we think about that moving forward when we are feeding those who are hungry and we're feeding each other, you know, cause it could be that someone, you know, similarly, like refuses.

Canned goods at a food pantry because they remind them of all the other canned goods, and they're just like, I'm gonna need a break from all of these canned goods [00:38:00] and this memory. And that's really good and right and fair. Yeah. Right. So, um, Yeah, I think those are the main things that this last year has taught me and, um, I, I, I hope to be out of this season of stress very soon, but also, right, like we all do, I can see how it's teaching me and shaping me and growing me.

Unfortunately.

Andrew Camp: No, Thank you for sharing and letting us glimpse into this season of your life. Um, but yeah, our food tells a story. Um, I was, I had the privilege of sitting down with Derek Weston, who I think, you know, he and Anna Wuffenden, who's, you know, of, um, but he, he told that story of the food. Our recipes tell stories.

Yes. And we have to. Come understand those stories, both good and bad, you know, and, and I love how you tied that with the person who might have had so many canned goods. [00:39:00] It's, it's a story that isn't one of love and, It's one of joy. It's one of despair and loneliness. And so what, yeah, I, what are the stories are our food tells us, you know, and personally too, what's a food that has ministered to me that is a joy, but what's also a food that is like, man, nope, I can't touch that because it reminds me too much of this.

Amy Dolan: Right. Right. Yeah. Yes. Um,

Andrew Camp: wow. So, um, so much insight, so much. I think that is worthy of unpacking more. Um, would love to hear this. You know, and it's a question I love asking all my guests towards the end, um, because it helps summarize sort of what our conversation has been about. But what's the story you want the church to tell?

Amy Dolan: Ooh. Oh man, okay, um, [00:40:00] I mean, to no surprise to you, Andrew, um, when people ask me now, what should I look for as I'm looking for a new church? I say, if it were me, I would start with a conversation with the pastor that asked, what is your food program? And to me, um, that would communicate so much, right? Do we, does the church know their neighbors?

Does the church know hungry people within the church? We so often focus externally on people being hungry, but so many people in our church are hungry. Right. Right. Right. Right. Um, what is the role of gathering together? What is the role of communion? What is the role of, um, feeding each other during rituals?

I mean, just so many, so many things, right? And so, um, I encourage people to think about, you know, asking your pastor, what is, what is the church's food program? And let the [00:41:00] pastor define that and answer that as they see fit. And if there's nothing at, if they say, Oh my goodness, we have nothing. I don't know what that means.

What do you think it means if there is at least like an openness to, you know, what that could mean or what that could be, then great. But for me, um, too many churches are preaching on Sunday mornings, a great message of caring for neighbors, caring for each other, mutuality, um, being like Jesus, um, expressing the image of God in ourselves and each other.

And this food component is completely missing. And it's like, well, how can you preach all those things? And people literally go home hungry and without connection to each other. So that's what I hope for. Of course, so many other things after I hope churches sanctuary and safe and a place of beauty and love [00:42:00] and all those things, but that's where I would start these days.

Um, and I think. To me, feeding each other, thinking about hunger, and then all the things that wrap around that are, to me, how we are like Jesus, how we express our image, and so they go together with a well preached sermon on Sunday.

Andrew Camp: Because then you're part of this idea of the dinner church, um, which is a whole nationwide movement, like it, you know.

Um, and so how does then the dinner church then inform, how, how does your gathering on Sunday then inform what you guys do in, in the real world, um, and at a practical level just to give our guests an idea of what this could look like?

Amy Dolan: Yeah, I highly recommend dinner churches because we all find spirituality and connection around dinners and tables anyway.

So let's call it church, like my efficiency value, [00:43:00] you can have two things done. Um, so, um, I finished pastoring Sunday supper church a few years ago, but while I was pastoring Sunday supper church and founding it. We gathered for dinners on Sunday nights and we had connection and food and then also a theme.

And we were very, um, social justice activist minded. And our idea really was that you could pull up on a Sunday night. You could pull your chair close up to the table, feeling however you felt from the week and the. day in your life. And at that table, ideally, you would find nourishment, connection, inspiration, learning.

And by the time you pulled your chair back, I always think of like the chairs scooching on, scooching back on the floor. And you've got up from your chair and went back into your life, you were, um, the best, a better version of yourself than when you pulled up. And [00:44:00] that caused you that, that. betterness in you, that more, um, connection to your image of God that was created in you, caused you then to fight for justice, to advocate for those who are hungry, to do what you could in your workplace, et cetera.

And I always saw the tip, pulling your chair up to the table. It's just a place we all needed. To literally refuel and learn and be inspired so that we could go out. And I, as the pastor, I asked myself that every week, like did us gathering at the table actually affect anything in our city and our communities?

Because I wanted it to obviously affect our individual lives and our communal lives. But like, if we got up from those tables and went out and nothing was different in our communities, what were we doing? Right? So that was kind of just like my own check in always is anything different because of our gathering and it should have been.

Andrew Camp: No, it's such a great reminder because [00:45:00] church has become so individual focused of what's in it for me. And so again, to encourage our listeners to think through, okay, as you go to church on Sunday or whenever day it is, or as you gather with a small group of people, what, how is that going? to change the way you approach life with your neighbors, with your community, um, and again, like you, it's what's your lane, you know, because you're not asked to change everything, but you know, God has given you specific passions and joys.

And so what, where are you going to impact and use that to to bring about better good. Um, and so, yeah, I hope our audience can begin to just think through, you know, and again, you've given us a lot to think through of what does this look like and how do we begin to, to see food as a system of totality, you know, that's intertwined with poverty, that's intertwined with housing.

And, you know, if you're spending all your money on housing, that leaves [00:46:00] very little margin for healthy, nourishing, life supporting food. Uh, so no, thank you for this rich conversation. Uh, so, um, some fun questions as we wrap up, just because we're about food. Um, what's one food you refuse to eat?

Amy Dolan: Oh, um, sloppy Joes,

Andrew Camp: sloppy Joes.

That's a first. Is there a story tied up with that?

Amy Dolan: I don't, I literally will eat anything. That is the only food I won't. I just didn't like it as a kid. And it's the sum of that like childhood, you know. Yeah. Stories your parents tell all the time. And so some days I think I should probably retry that. But I don't.

So.

Andrew Camp: Fair enough. Fair enough. I wonder if you could do a tofu. Yeah, and

Amy Dolan: what's so funny is I love like a pulled pork, which I feel like is basically the same flavors. So I don't totally know, but it's, it's like a [00:47:00] whole legend now and I'm just going to, I'm going to keep that as my identity. I don't know why.

Andrew Camp: I understand. Fair enough. I love it. So then on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Amy Dolan: Oh, um, wow. I love pastas. Like, uh, just pasta to me is the essence of good food because it's when it's, um, homemade and it has like three ingredients. Like, The noodle, the pasta, the tomato, the cheese, a little fresh basil.

It's just, it's perfection. And to me, that's, you know, we complicate things so much, but when you have something so delicious and wonderful like that, perfect as simple homemade pasta is everything.

Andrew Camp: With, with a few fresh heirloom tomatoes.

Amy Dolan: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Andrew Camp: Fair enough. And then finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals.[00:48:00]

As in, if you knew you had one last meal to enjoy, what would you choose? So what would Amy's last meal and table look like?

Amy Dolan: I mean, I really don't like this question, it's

Andrew Camp: so,

Amy Dolan: so final. It is. I'm going to eat forever, Andrew. I'm going to eat forever. We are, yes. There will be no ending.

Andrew Camp: But I think it, it again ties into the story of who we are, you know, and it, it, it reveals something about what, who we are in our table.

Yeah.

Amy Dolan: I mean, To me, the perfect final meal is a long rectangle table with my family and friends. It's noisy, it's chatty, it's big family portions, everyone's passing the bowls around, clinking the glasses, um, My husband is like I mentioned plant based and so a meal that there are no Exceptions to it's a it's a perfect meal for him.

It's a perfect meal for me Everyone in our table who has [00:49:00] allergies and preferences. It's just like the most beautiful meal. Is this possible do you think?

Andrew Camp: Possible But it's possible. It's like all the stories of food intertwine. It's it.

Amy Dolan: Yeah,

Andrew Camp: it's complicated, but it's beautiful.

Amy Dolan: Yeah That to me, because it's just the connection is when you're all eating the same food and talking about it and tasting it.

And I see so often my husband doesn't have the cheese and he doesn't have the meat and eat. And so suddenly like his plate looks different than the rest of ours and he's doing his best to talk. But, and to me, just like the ideal meal is everyone eating the same thing according to their preferences and talking, Oh, the sauce, Oh, the tomatoes, Oh, you know, it's just Wonderful.

Andrew Camp: No, I love that picture and it feels so apropos to our conversation where it's a table where everyone's welcome and they find their, their story and their needs

Amy Dolan: and

Andrew Camp: their longings all met without feeling excluded or [00:50:00] pushed away or inferior in any way.

Amy Dolan: So

Andrew Camp: no, I love that picture you just painted.

Amy Dolan: Mm hmm.

Andrew Camp: It wouldn't be an easy table to create, but yeah, that type of table, it's never easy.

Amy Dolan: Yeah. You know, it's never easy. Right. Right. Right. Right. Yes. I don't know if you, people think that a lot. Like it's, Oh, it's, it's easy for you. Cause you do it all the time. Or, you know, you know how to cook, right. I'm sure people say that to you and it's just like, it gets easier.

Definitely. It gets, it's all about practice. It gets easier. The more you do it. Yeah. But it's always a labor of love. It always takes time. It always takes resources. And I'm always a little nervous before people come over. Always. You it's, it's a very vulnerable thing to cook for people and to have them at your table and to be at a table to be at someone's table is very vulnerable.

And so I just go with that. Like the nervousness is Appropriate that it is a vulnerable situation. So [00:51:00] we're not going to hide that, but, um, yeah, it's, it's worth it.

Andrew Camp: It is. No, I always struggled with watching people eat what I cook, you know, as a professional chef, just because it was like, I put a lot into this and so, you know, I think it's good and I have to rest in that.

And so your reaction, I can't base my worth or identity on it, but I care. And so, yeah, it was a, it was a very challenging experience.

Amy Dolan: Yeah, it's very vulnerable. Now, do you have one question for you?

Andrew Camp: Yes.

Amy Dolan: This is what you get with a fellow podcast. No, I

Andrew Camp: love it. Yes.

Amy Dolan: I have a theory that, uh, people who know how to cook are the best dinner guests because you appreciate.

Do you feel that way about yourself when someone invites you over? Are you going to? Going on no matter what

Andrew Camp: no, i'm always grateful and it's people are hesitant to invite us over because i'm a chef And i'm like no like any meal. I don't have to cook is a great meal. Like

Amy Dolan: [00:52:00] absolutely Yeah, you know and

Andrew Camp: if you ask for pointers, I will give it I won't offer any feedback because you know um, but like yeah, like I Again, because it's not about the food, it's about the people we're together with.

And so, like, I just want to be with you. And so, like, whatever you do is great because I don't have to go home and clean up, like, you know?

Amy Dolan: Right.

Andrew Camp: Um, and so, no, I, yes, I love being invited. We love being invited over, and especially if you're going to care for our girls. Or if you say, Hey, it's an adult only, like, but you know, and feed us even better and, you know, so we can have adult conversations without our kids, you know, it's a both man, but like, yeah.

Um, Yeah, I love being a guest.

Amy Dolan: It's the best, right? And you can taste, you can taste all the love no matter what, right? And I, I appreciate that so much. Same thing, people say, I'm so ner I'm like, I will be the best guest you have ever had at your table. Right, exactly. I will talk about [00:53:00] every ingredient and ask you for the recipe until everyone is kicking me out.

Andrew Camp: Yep, yep. Awesome. Well, thank you, Amy, so much for this rich conversation. I hope our listeners, um, I hope you as a listener are Thinking of ways where you can begin to think about your lane in food advocacy or, um, what does the table look like for you? Amy's given us a lot to think about. Um, and so if our listeners, if the listeners want to get in touch or learn more about who Amy is and your work, where might they be able to find you?

Amy Dolan: Thank you. Yes. Thank you for this conversation. So I host the feeding people podcast, which you can find at our website, uh, wider tables dot com. And also on YouTube, we've got all the podcasts this year on video also. So you can watch us on the feeding people podcast, YouTube channel. Um, and yeah. Um, and also on Instagram, I am at underscore a Dolan, where I show what I'm cooking that night, um, restaurants I'm going to in the city [00:54:00] and my pit bull Maddox, of course.

Do

Andrew Camp: you have a favorite? Hole in the wall restaurant in Chicago right now?

Amy Dolan: Oh, um, I, I, every, almost every restaurant I love to go. I'm very selective about going out. I feel like it should be like a very, it should be good. I don't go out to like, I don't want to go out to a mediocre restaurant ever. This is not a hole in the wall, but this is my friend's restaurant in, uh, Pullman, Chicago is the Lexington Betty smokehouse.

And my friend, chef, uh, Dominique, she runs it and owns it with her wife, Tanisha. And it is just the most amazing barbecue, the brisket, the, I always tell people to go for the sides. Like I order every collard green, mac and cheese, French fry, the cornbread, everything. But um, Dominique and Tanisha are just like the most special people and they fill their restaurant with that love.

And so you got to check out Lexington Betty's Smokehouse. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: So [00:55:00] Lexington Betty Smokehouse for anybody in Chicago or if you visit Chicago, uh, check it out. Chicago has some great restaurants.

Amy Dolan: I mean, the best in my opinion,

Andrew Camp: I'm partial to LA, but you know,

Amy Dolan: not, no, no, no, not even a chance. Fair enough. We'll

Andrew Camp: have to do it.

Maybe we'll have to do food tours at some point in some day and, and, and showdown. So again, um, thank you so much, Amy, for joining us. Thank you, audience, for listening in and joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food.

Until the next time we gather around the table, bye.