The Biggest Table

Episode 51 (Paul Schutz)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another. And today I'm thrilled to be joined by Paul Schutz, born and raised in Evansville, Indiana.

Paul received his BA in English from Boston College and his MA and PhD in systematic theology for Fordham University. After teaching on Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, he served for several years as director of Worship at St. Mary Catholic Church in Evansville. His time working as a musician and Liturgist was his gateway into the study of theology.

His research focuses on the meaning and significance of creation in the Christian tradition with an emphasis on how scientific research might inform religious accounts of humanity's relationship with other creatures. His recent publications apply the Theological writings of the Jesuit astrophysicist William Steger, to questions of gender, [00:01:00] race, and inter-religious dialogue, as well as prayer, liturgy, and ministry.

His book, A Theology of Flourishing, which we'll be discussing in this podcast, explores the potential of flourishing to serve as a starting point and center of gravity for Christian theology and spirituality, and a basis for cultivating a robust practice of ecological and social justice. In his free time, Paul enjoys reading, music, travel, hiking, cooking, baking, and eating.

He lives in San Jose, California with his partner and dog Albert. So thanks for joining me today, Paul. It's great, uh, to have this time to talk about your book.

Paul Schutz: Thank you, Andrew. It's great to be with you.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And you know what, all you enjoy is everything I enjoy in life too. You know, nothing wrong with reading, music, travel, hiking, cooking, baking, like that's life.

No,

Paul Schutz: it's a good, it's a good list, right? Yeah. Especially the food part. Yeah. Given the podcast itself. Yeah,

Andrew Camp: no. You know, flourishing is all about travel, hiking, cooking, baking, and eating, in my opinion. But a hundred percent, you know, who am I to say?

Paul Schutz: [00:02:00] Well, I mean, I, I'd agree with the list. Yes, sure. For sure.

Yes. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Um, so I wanna start here. It's a, um, you know, what, as you think about back about your life, like where has food and the table informed how you now view the world, um, today?

Paul Schutz: In huge ways. I grew up in a family, a pretty big family that is half German and half Lebanese. Oh wow. And, uh, on both sides, food and family were sort of the center coming together around the table.

Were the center of our family life. I remember from a very young age, my, my Lebanese. Grandmother in particular, cooking, KBI and other things like that was a, it was sort of an event, you know? Mm-hmm. For the family, we'd all either go to their house or folks would come over to ours and we would gather around, you know, a wonderful table of Lebanese foods.

Uh, around the holidays, you know, Christmas in particular, Thanksgiving, we'd gather, you know, my [00:03:00] dad's side, it was the same thing, which for the sort of, you know, normative, you know. White European culture in the United States maybe isn't as common. But my dad grew up in a very small German Catholic enclave community in southern Indiana.

And every Sunday we would go up to Jasper up to his hometown. And, uh, my grandmother, along with a couple of my dad's, sisters, brothers, you know, folks, uh, would cook this elaborate meal. She was a baker. She, uh, home baker baked wedding cakes for people in the town out of her home. And, you know, basically was fed the town and made, you know, the wedding cakes for all of her kids when they got married, all that kind of stuff.

So every Sunday we were gathered around this big long table. And then as the family grew, there was a kids' table, you know? Yeah. And, uh, we had these wonderful, wonderful, you know, dishes, fried chicken and, you know, mashed potatoes that are just, you know, beyond compare in my memory, uh, you know, your grandmother's cooking is always the best cooking, I think, [00:04:00] for a lot of people.

And so, um. Food and table and family were at the core of, I think, my young personal development. And, um, it was always proceeded by prayer. You know, it was always in a spirit of prayer and sharing fellowship and community, you know, playing cards on my dad's side, you know, playing games, watching, you know, shows doing silly theatrical things on my mom's side.

Uh, you know, but whatever it was that the table and the meal were at the center of, of all of it. Wow.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. There's nothing wrong with it. Full table of German food or Midwest food and then Lebanese food. Like that sounds Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm hungry just thinking about it right now. Me too. I know that's the, maybe we

Paul Schutz: should quit and have lunch.

I don't know the, but no. Yeah. Yeah. That's

Andrew Camp: the problem with doing a, a podcast sometimes about food and the table is you start talking about food and you know, all of a sudden you're like, wait. Nope. Oh, focus on the conversation. 'cause I no focus. Right?

Paul Schutz: Yeah, yeah. Talk first, eat later. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. So then [00:05:00] how, like when and how did then flourishing sort of begin to take shape, you know, of this center for you?

Paul Schutz: Hmm. I'd say that there are kind of two or three parts to that story. Um, the first one is personal, and I think it starts with my family. It starts with the love that I experienced as a kid. Uh, it starts with the way that, you know, my family and friends can mediated, uh, what I would say is God's love to me and taught me that.

Um, I grew up in a family that I've already kind of talked a little bit about. Um, but on top of that, you know, there was always this sense of our Catholicism, our faith being sort of imbued with the love of God. It wasn't a particularly, I didn't grow up with a particularly doctrinaire Catholicism. I grew up with a very active, very engaged, you know.

Going to church, being involved in church, doing all the things. Sometimes I say, uh, devout but not particularly pious is one way. Okay. You [00:06:00] could talk about it. Um, you know, family, very for assault of the earth, but committed to, uh, justice and care for others and service and those kinds of things. Those were the primary manifestations of kind of our faith.

And so I think that somehow in that, even though, you know, this is in a time in my life when I wasn't conscious of it and certainly wasn't, you know, thinking about it like a scholar thinks about it, um, that was about flourishing. That was the seed bed for me, receiving a Christianity that was deeply engaged, but was ultimately about the love of God, bringing about the fullness of life.

Mm-hmm. Um, for, for me as a person, for those in my family, for the whole world. I mean, we're also really caring for creation from a very young age. And so all of that is there. Yeah. Kind of the little seeds were planted. Um, and I'd say that those seeds kind of sprouted and took root, uh, in a very special way in the years that I was working professionally in ministry as a, as a musician, liturgist.

That's my kind of [00:07:00] background. And so I, I landed after teaching for two years on Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, I landed in this parish in downtown Evansville, Indiana, my hometown. And, uh, did not know that this parish really existed. Certainly didn't know what they were up to as a kid. If I had, I would've been there.

I mean, they were this wonderfully justice oriented, uh, eucharistically centered community. That was thriving. Thriving at the time I walked into something I never thought, you know, I thought I was coming in for a year to take a, a gap year, so to speak, between undergrad and grad school. Uh, it turned out that I was there for almost five years because I just fell in love with the place in the work.

Hmm. And it was that experience of witnessing a community gathered at the Eucharistic table. And here I'm thinking of, you know, connections between the tables I was at as a kid and the Eucharistic table. Right. You know, it was that family of Faith gathered Sunday after Sunday, um, [00:08:00] around that table that was really radically transformative for me and is the reason why I ended up doing a PhD in theology.

It wasn't ever, ever on in the cards for me. Yeah. Uh, until I had that lived experience of this community flourishing individually and collectively in relationship with God around the table. And then seeing that work break out and go out to try to serve the world, foster the flourishing of others. And so that was, that was huge.

And then, you know, the third part is the academic part, you know, and that, that we'll say more about probably as we go. But, um, my intellectual formation at Fordham was also really, really wonderfully. Communal and centered on, on even food, you know, having meals together, gathering together, these kinds of things.

Um, but out of that came this deep sense that theology as an academic discipline is not just sort of armchair analysis, as we say. We don't just sit around and think the big thoughts, but this is about, you [00:09:00] know, taking the best of what Christianity can be seeking that seeking, I should say, yeah, the best of what Christianity can be, and bringing that to the church, bringing that to our lives of faith.

And I think that all of that together, uh, especially my engagement with, I would say feminist and, you know, queer and liberationist perspectives on theology, is what led me to come to this idea that. Christians believe in a God who desires the fullness of life for all creation. And to say, a lot of people have been talking about that, but let's go deep on it.

Yeah. And see what we can find. And so those three things together, I think in my sort of trajectory, are what inspired, uh, the idea of taking flourishing as this starting point and center of gravity.

Andrew Camp: I love it. I I love how you said it, that like, you know, this isn't just an armchair exercise for you, but this is really born out of family.

You know, church life, academic life, you know, and really your goal isn't just to give us more nice [00:10:00] cognitive thoughts. Um, no, but really to propel, uh, um, you know, the church and believers, whoever wants to follow Jesus or want to pursue justice to, okay, what's a framework in which we can think about this?

Paul Schutz: Exactly, exactly. That is the inspiration. I can't do theology anymore without an awareness of pastoral and social and ecclesiological and ecological, uh, realities.

And, and, and I don't think that, I think that any theology that that doesn't approach its work in that way is in some way deprived of a big part of what it should be about.

Andrew Camp: The people I love the most are, you know, I love great thinkers, you know, and you, you write this great book that propelled me to think deeply, but that it's not, again, it's, it's nestled in the life of church and community and not mm-hmm.

Outside of it. And I think that's the best theology because it's nice to propose ideas, but if you're not working them out in the context of life, like, you know, um, you know, we need help figuring this out. Yeah,

Paul Schutz: [00:11:00] absolutely.

Andrew Camp: What I really appreciated about your book is that, you know, growing up, you know, and living sort of in this white, evangelical, conservative world, you know, and hearing all of the deconstruction and, you know, the, the changes that need to happen given in light of, you know, our current administrate president, um, you know, in the current state of the church, you know, and so I hear a lot of what's wrong, but I rarely hear what, how to move forward.

And so I think your book begins. Say, okay. Like, we know there needs to be new theology done in light of the world's challenges and that how do we do it and how do we actually construct a more beautiful way? And, um, you know, that's, that's where your book comes in.

Paul Schutz: I really appreciate that. Yeah. And that's, that's the goal, I mean, is to, you know, name what's wrong.

I, I, I go to, you know, the liberation theology tradition for this dynamic of denunciation and enunciation. We have to name what's wrong. Yeah. We have to deconstruct, we have to critique, but we also have to [00:12:00] announce the gospel. We also have to, you know, pro propose a new way and do that not only in, in thought, but also in practice, in life, because, you know, we need, we need that way forward.

We need a new platform to stand on, new language, you know, whatever it might be. And, you know, if this book contributes in some small way to the cultivation of that, then I'll be, I'll be happy. Yeah. For, you know, for the work for sure. Right. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And, you know, in the centering text, I guess if I could say it, you know, for your book is really John 10:10. Yeah. You know, it's a phrase that many Christians know, you know, and it's Jesus' words that, you know, the thief only comes to, seeks to destroy and kill. Um, but then Jesus's words is, I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.

Paul Schutz: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: That's right. Yeah. So unpack us because I think we, we have some ideas of what that verse means.

Um, and some of them may not be accurate or, you know, in line with what you're thinking and so like, unpack us. Yeah. Help us. Sure. We can do unpack.

Paul Schutz: Yeah, [00:13:00] for sure. So I think that, you know, that verse has always resonated with me out of my experience, and I've always thought there's something there, there's something really critical there.

So there's a couple of dimensions to why I think that verse became to occupy the center of my thinking. Um, and they, they get at other parts of the project that we'll probably talk about as we go forward. So the first one is, what do we mean by abundant life? Well, you know, historically in Christian circles, across denominations, I think that that abundant life or that fullness of life, eternal life, right?

All of those different things, yeah. Uh, different variations on a theme of life have pointed toward. An idea of heavenly salvation and union with God, right? Yep. And that's good. And that is the destination. That is the goal. You know, that is the vision for our Christian life. But so often a hyperfocus on heavenly salvation can lead our attention away from the realities of the world.

And [00:14:00] Jesus had a lot to say about the realities of the world too. Yes. Right. So there's this kinda, you know, bifurcation that happens between heavenly reality and earthly reality, or between spirit and body, spirit and matter, those kinds of things. And if we follow that and really, you know, take that up, I think what we come to see is that there is the possibility that a hyper focus on heavenly salvation can lead us to ignore or even degrade the earth or our bodies as sinful, broken, fallen, which often they are, but that's not the whole story. This abundant life has something to do with this world. It has something to do with life in our bodies and life in our communities here and now. Uh, 'cause Jesus had a lot to say about that too. Right.

And so what I wanna do with that first, that verse is reorient the relationship between our understanding of salvation and our understanding of this world. So when we talk about sin, when we talk about all these things, we have to take that [00:15:00] idea of abundant life, meaning the fullness of life, the flourishing of every creature, human and otherwise in this world as a starting point for understanding what heavenly salvation is.

Because surely if we do that, we're going to achieve, you know, union with God in heaven too. So that's one part, but to kind of broaden that out and bring it back to the scripture verse a little bit more explicitly, I think there's something really important going on there. The second part of the verse, I've come the.

They may have life and have it abundantly, has always received the lion's share of attention right in, in Christian discourse. It's nice. It sounds good. We like to talk about abundant life. You know, we like to think about heaven, these kinds of things. But the first part of the verse, and this comes in a parable, the, the, the, the chapter on the shepherd and the sheep and John, uh, and, and Jesus is sort of relating himself, scripture, scholars point out with the gate, I am the gate.

Mm-hmm. The way in, and we think of Jesus' way, truth in life. So it's another, you know, way that we can kind of put those [00:16:00] ideas together. Jesus is the way in, well the thief, in contrast to Jesus himself, comes to kill and to steal and to destroy. So whatever that abundant life idea in the second half of the verse means it.

Its meaning emerges when we reflect critically and carefully on what kills and steals and destroys. Hmm. Right. Yeah. So those are the opposite. That Jesus, those are opposites that Jesus is setting up in the, in the verse. So we have to ask that critical question. What in our world, and you mentioned the current administration, you mentioned, you know, ecological and social realities.

What in our world is killing, stealing and destroying abundant life? You know, and I think about that in the book, not just individually on this paradigm of sort of like, you know, my sinfulness is killing my possibility of heavenly salvation. That's a very narrow understanding, right? Right. There are social and structural and ecological forces that every day are killing, [00:17:00] degrading, stealing the lives of others.

You know, thinking of a world in which. You know, we have bottled water and abundance and, you know, a huge percentage of the world lacks access to clean, drinkable water on a daily basis. How is that Okay. Is that not a form of the theft of, you know, what makes possible abundant life? Yeah, you know, I, I ask those kinds of questions and I want to interrogate that.

So yes, that verse is doing a lot of work and those are kind of a couple of big ways that, um, that it orients the whole project.

Andrew Camp: I love that. 'cause it, you, like you said, it is a verse that people resonate and we feel this drawn towards. Right. Because like, I think internally, you know, wherever you stand, whatever tradition within Christian Christianity you've faced, you, you, you face that tension of like, okay, there Jesus promises abundant life, but it doesn't feel right right now, you know?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like I was, when I was in seminary, I remember joking about this verse because, you know, my seminary was about spiritual formation and a lot of it [00:18:00] influenced by. St. John of the Cross and Dark Knight of the Soul. And so a lot of deep interspection work and dealing with, you know, our habits and, you know, sinful habits and family of origin and what prevents us from, you know, Jesus.

And I remember one point I'm like, if this is what abundant life is, like, you know, this isn't what I signed up for. Right. Like Right, right. You know, but then like, I think you help us reframe it. 'cause I think, you know, when I was thinking about that verse, it's all about me and what is, you know, how do I get abundant life?

Whereas you're looking at the whole world, not just humanity, not just individuals, but like created, um, all of creation, um, living and non-living.

Paul Schutz: Absolutely. And, and as folks read the book, you know, one of the things you'll see, and, and I say this, um, not, not as an advertisement, just as something that I was aware of as I was writing, is, you know, as you write, there are these phrases that you keep repeating.

Yeah. And one of the little, little phrases that I [00:19:00] kept putting was, it's like, you know, comma separated individually and collectively over and over and over again, individually and collectively. Hmm. You know, and because it's both, it it is both absolutely. Our individual salvation, our individual flourishing matters.

And so does the flourishing of the whole, you know, socially ecologically, every species living and non-living, as you said. So because Right. We as individuals are not separate from, nor are we separable from those systems that we live in, we are part of them. We live within them. And so to think of our own flourishing is necessarily to think of the flourishing of, of everything else around us.

And I think Christianity calls us not to get away from the world, but to enter more deeply into it in love mm-hmm. On behalf of that flourishing that you're talking about for everything. Yeah. You know, and that, that really is the vision.

Andrew Camp: Right. But that also requires, you know, that [00:20:00] deeper engagement requires work.

Um, you know, it requires, you know, dealing with my own selfishness, but then also being willing to listen to other voices that may not. Absolutely. I may not be. More prone to listen to. 'cause you, you say that, you know, this flourishing, we need to give primacy a place to those that have been oppressed or marginalized.

Um,

Paul Schutz: yeah, because whatever flourishing means, you know, my contention would be that, you know, we're gonna understand it the most fully when we listen to the voices of the oppressed and marginalized and the voiceless. You know, people who cannot speak, but also other creatures who cannot speak. You know, reflecting on that, reflecting on the reality of suffering, you know, a lot of people would say, oh, a theology of flourishing.

That sounds great. Um, but one of the critical questions that always comes up is, how do we deal with suffering? And my answer to that in the book is through radical closeness to suffering. Radical attunement to suffering. Radical listening. Deep listening. Yeah. As you said [00:21:00] to those who, who, who are suffering.

Under whatever conditions they're suffering. Because out of that will come this deeper and fuller awareness of what it means to experience the fullness of life. And we don't come to those encounters as individual humans say, with creation or with another human. We don't come to them with answers. We don't come to them with, you know, bible verses ready to quote, you know, either as a sort of panacea or some sort of, you know, nice little, you know, stopgap, you know, oh, everything will get better.

Or, uh, as an instrument of condemnation. You know, we don't come to, to those situations like that. We come to them with open hearts and open ears. Mm-hmm. Uh, maybe we could even say we come to them as, we would come to someone at a table, right. To share a meal. Right. With that kind of openness. And then, um, I, I and I, here I'm inspired by my colleague Jessica Klan's work who writes on mental health depression theology, and she has this great phrase where she says, you know, [00:22:00] a Christianity that is attuned to mental health, mental illness.

Is a Christian Christianity that can stay with suffering. Wow. And not avoid it. Yeah. Not evade it, not pull away from it, but stay with it. Enter. And she doesn't mean that the sufferer stays with the suffering. It means that the person accompanying the sufferer stays with the suffering. Right? Mm-hmm. Stays with it in closeness.

Sometimes that accompaniment is all that we need, because with that, and in my book, this is the way I talk about it, comes this deep attunement to reality, this deep awareness of what reality is and how it works. And that attunement is what allows us to know what God is calling us to, what we are called to be discerning in the middle of the reality we inhabit.

Um, so that we can flourish and bring others into that, what I call glorious liveliness, you know? Yeah. Of, of God's presence breaking out of us into the world and transforming all of it by grace.

Andrew Camp: A lot [00:23:00] there you said to worth unpacking. Um, first, you know, and you didn't, you used the word multiple times in your book, but the sort of the call to radical hospitality, um Yeah.

You know, and that's what you were describing of just this attunement, inviting people walking alongside. Um, yes. You know, Henry Nouwen's definition of hospitality is the one I always come back to. 'cause I feel like it's that posture of creating that free space where others can be who they are truly meant to be.

Paul Schutz: Yeah. And for me, who they are truly meant to be is who God has created them to be. Right. And that's, that's my understanding of what it means to flourish, is to enter more fully into that, to being that person or being that creature. Yeah. Having that space.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Right. Because then the other word that plays heavily into your work, it's from John Es, and I'm not, I can't speak Latin, but the

Paul Schutz: highs Yeah.

S Ches. Yes. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Because I think it's important because. Again, coming from a Western mindset, we wanna speak [00:24:00] flourishing into people or we feel like we have, you know, I think especially coming from a evangelical mindset, sometimes we have the answers. You just need to listen to us come, you know? Yeah. And it plays into a lot of places, not just evangelicalism, but like you, you're talking about this idea that this, you know, this particular thisness of every created thing, if I, if I'm quoting and making sense of John Skoda.

Correct? That's right. Yeah. Help. 'cause I think this is super important when we think about flourishing. So help, yeah, help us understand this, unpack that a little bit because yeah.

Paul Schutz: Yeah. So that Latin word ha or hike means this, it means just this. Okay. Um, and so the chitas is like the condition of being something.

Okay. So it's the condition of being this, right? Yeah. That's, that's where the, that's the etymology, right? In Latin. So we're talking about what it means to be this and for Scotus and, and I have to say from the beginning, I'm doing a little bit more than he was with the concept. Okay. Following some other [00:25:00] scholars, especially in the Franciscan tradition.

But I think it's, I think it's valid. You know, in, in his day he was trying to answer, uh, a philosophical debate about the relationship between universals in particulars. Do we start from the universal and go to the particular, or do we start from the particular and go to the universal? We don't have to talk about that, but that's the question he was trying to answer.

Yes. He was a medieval theologian in which they were discussed. He, he was a medieval

Andrew Camp: theologian. Yes. Crazy things that have very little application to modern day life. It feels like. We would think yes. You know,

Paul Schutz: and these may still be debated, but anyhow, he starts with this. He starts with a particular,

Andrew Camp: okay.

Paul Schutz: And when I think about that in light of the gospel, and here's where the theological move happens, I think maybe there's something there about understanding how God sees the world. Mm-hmm. Or the way that God values creatures. God values every blade of grass as this. That's very scriptural. Yeah. Right. God, God value can count the hairs, individual hairs on our heads.

So God loves [00:26:00] each individual person or each individual squirrel or whatever it might be, not as a squirrel in terms of the category, right. The general, but as this squirrel, as this person, as Andrew, as Paul, as whoever. Right. So, God, God loves the world. Uh, in its particularity. And that's the sort of theological extension of this discussion of h Chass.

So for flourishing, if we're talking about flourishing as the, the, the becoming, the fullness of what one is. Right. And again, not just humans, but every creature in its own way. What that means is that Andrew is called to become the fullness of Andrew, this, right. Right. Paul, you know, the, this squirrel, that blade of grass, this river, right.

Whatever. This molecule even, who knows? Yeah. You know, how, how deep the love of God goes. How God, you know, mm-hmm. Knows and, and loves the world. But the idea is that if that's the framing, then whatever it means [00:27:00] to flourish emerges from a creature's own thisness, from their own hich attacks. It can't, like you said, just be imposed from the top down.

And I think, you know, the Catholic analog to sometimes the, the, the preconceived or pre prepackaged scriptural answers that we see in some other Christian denominations, uh, often lives in the catechism. You know, I recently have said that, um, I think one of the big things that Catholicism is struggling with right now.

Is the idea that the catechism is an answer book for everything. And so you can just go to this page. But then what about scripture? You know, the, the, the Catholic tradition has never said, you know, has always said that scripture is the, the, the final answer, the final norm for everything and tradition. So I think that that, you know, in all of our traditions, there's the possibility of a fundamentalism of sorts, right?

That says, if you would just listen to me, if you would just listen to what the church teaches or what the Bible says, you know, um, you would've the answer. But I'm, I'm challenging that with [00:28:00] this idea that when we start from the presupposition of the love of God, which is what Dun Scotus and the other Franciscan thinkers of the time do, and bring that through Christ into this idea that God loves every creature, whatever it is, as this.

Then the meaning of flourishing is gonna come through that creature's thisness. So a couple concrete examples of that. One is like, if you have a beloved, I have a dog named Albert. I wish I could bring him in and show him right now. Anyway, he is. He is wonderful. I learned through my relationship with Albert what it means for Albert to be the fullness of what he is.

I'm not here to make him to command him. Right. The classic sort of master dog relationship. I'm in relationship with Albert. I love him. He's sweet. He's the best dog I've ever had in my entire life. Sorry. Blessed memory of my previous, you know, dog pets. Yeah. But he is, he's amazing. And. I know his amazingness.

I [00:29:00] know what he wants when he wants belly rubs, when he wants to play, when he wants to go outside from my attunement to him, from me learning. Not what a dog is like, but what Albert is like. Mm. You know? Yeah. And, and, and deepening that relationship. Well, the same goes for us in relationship to others. We discover the fullness of who we are as individual persons, as this is, you know, so to speak.

Yeah. Uh, in relationship to God in our prayer for sure. And also in relationship to other others. And so if we go to a concrete example of this, like, um, maybe a woman who feels the call to ordained ministry in a tradition that doesn't allow for it. Or a trans person who experiences gender dysphoria, this misalignment, so to speak, of, of, of, uh, consciousness and body Right.

And says, I am not the gender that I was assigned at birth. I need to do this. Those are matters in my framing when flourishing is the starting point. Those are matters of profound discernment and often [00:30:00] manners of profound suffering. Hmm. You know, as a, as a, you know, cisgender man, I don't know what it's like for a trans person to experience gender dysphoria.

No. That should not sort of precipitate this, like me coming with answers that should precipitate deep listening to the reality of trans people in their thisness. Because I know the, the one thing I do know is that God desires this other person or this other creature to flourish in the fullness of what it is in God's love through God's grace.

And it's my duty as a Christian to. Open myself to the other, to open myself to God's work in the other, and then accompany and foster and cultivate, right? Yeah. Whatever brings about that fullness. So that, I mean, is all the ches idea is, is the root of an entire, the starting point of an entire trajectory in my argument that kind of takes us toward deeper reflection on realities, like the ones I've named.

Yeah. Um, [00:31:00] with that flourishing framework in mind.

Andrew Camp: So then, and this is where I struggled and wrestled a little bit, um, you know, and I think you paved the way forward, but like, how does this particular thisness not lead to radical individuality, but rather how can it contribute to community flourishing?

Because like, if everything is a particular, is there any place then for, you know, systemic communal changes.

Paul Schutz: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, in fact, I think radical attention to the thisness of creatures, uh, leads to the radical transformation of the system because of that radical hospitality that you name that radical compassion, or I call it revolutionary love, and the chapter and the New Testament, those kinds of practices paved the way for systemic transformation because they reorient us toward that deep [00:32:00] listening and that space making that you talked about, right?

That sharing that you talked about. If we really listened to the experience of oppressed populations, of marginalized populations, you know, think of. Anti-black racism in the history of the United States. For example, if, if we had really listened or still really listened to the voices of black and brown folks crying out under a myriad forms of oppression that white people normally never experience, right.

Um, we probably wouldn't be so comfortable with the status quo. Mm-hmm. So there is this coming out of not only the individual, but the collective experience of people in their h aass. Right. Knowing that God doesn't, you know, just care about that. God cares also about everyone. I think that, um, discernment then when I was, which is what I was talking about, and there I'm deeply informed by the tradition of Ignatian spirituality, which really centers discernment.

Mm-hmm. Um, and that I have a whole chapter on that in the book. This becoming the [00:33:00] fullness, discerning the way toward the fullness of what God is. Discernment always happens collectively. Hmm. It's never just individual. So the image, and I think it's interesting that you went to maybe St. John of the cross or you know, you think of the great mystics of the tradition, you know, think of the, the, the sculpture there.

Ecstasy, for example, right? It's this very sort of like, you know, looking up to God, it's just me in my body, right? Having this radical, transcendent, transcendental experience, but whatever the meaning of that mystical experience was. Came through in the communication of the experience to others. Hmm. Right.

It wasn't, it, it, it, it, it wasn't just like, I can't just say to you I had this radical, mystical experience and expect everybody to listen. The truth of it comes through when it enters into community and is broken and shared among the community and others say there is something of God in that [00:34:00] experience.

There is something of the grace of God working there. There's a recognition that has to happen. Right. That's all collective, that's all communal. Yeah. And the same thing happens in discernment when we share our experiences of whatever it is that we are going through, when we go on a hike in a mountain, on a mountain peak and see, you know, birds soaring over the, you know, overhead or a river running beside us, and we are overcome with a sense of awe and wonder, beauty, the beauty of creation.

All of those are relational experiences. Those are ways in which we are always situated in community. Yeah. And so. It can't break down like this idea can't break down flourishing into a radical individualism because whatever it means to flourish is only discerned in social and I would add ecological community, our, our relationships to the world.

Yeah. And this is the same reason why, you know, some might charge the, the framework with, um, you know, leaning toward relativism too, as sort of anything goes well, you just said that this person is like that, and [00:35:00] whatever I say I am is what I am. No, no. Right. I, I would caution against that and I do in the book.

Because the truth of what someone is or something is, is discerned. And that's a two-way relationship, right? So in prayer and in relationship is where we discover our thisness and what it is that God is calling us to be. And that's gonna involve deep struggle and deep, you know, work. Um, but it's never just an assertion of oneself.

It's not the sort of enlightenment individual, you know, saying, this is what I am. No, it's discovering what we are through prayerful relationship mm-hmm. With God and others. And so that's how I would respond to, you know, charges. Whether they be of a radical individualism or relativism. It's the, the community makes all the difference.

Andrew Camp: Because I think many times, you know, if we're honest with ourselves this idea of pursuing flourishing at the expense of others, like, I'm just gonna pursue what I need best. You know, what's best for me or what's best even for my family. You know, maybe we, you know, in our family system, we're gonna pursue what's [00:36:00] best for our family.

But it can never come at the expense, you know, of human humanity or creation, like you said, ecological issues, that everything's intertwined. Uh,

Paul Schutz: yeah. Flourishing that comes at the expense of anything else is not flourishing. No, it's a form of self-aggrandizement rather than what I would call self-actualization or something like that.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Paul Schutz: Yeah. Um, and sorry, if I can just say, and the root of that is, is this discernment around God's intentions, right? Right. That God actually intends the flourishing of the whole creation with every creature in the fullness of what it is individually and collectively. If that's the norm, then there's no room you can't flourish while another suffers.

And so that in itself leads to radical transformation on a social collective level, on a structural level because if there are institutions or systems, anything from, you know, clericalism to redlining, to, you know, racism baked into the fabric of a [00:37:00] society and that is obstructing the fullness of life for a person or community than it has to be dealt with for sure.

Um, because God intends those persons and communities to flourish.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, no, and I love that too. 'cause it's the starting point isn't the fall anymore. The starting point is original creation. Like, who is God and who does God want creation, all of his creation to be, versus, Hey, we live in a flawed system.

It's gonna be a flawed system. There's nothing we can do, let's just grin and bear it. Um, yeah. You know,

Paul Schutz: and hope for something better. Right? Yeah. Which gets us back to that escape hatch paradigm. Right. You know, where we're just trying to get out of the world. Um, and I, I would just say, you know, I, I, I spend a lot of time in the book.

Um, arguing that point you just made about that original creation or God's original intentions for creation and they're there in scripture. Mm-hmm. When we look very carefully and do this analysis, um, and the one that always jumps out to me is on, on gender in Genesis three, just to use that one. You know, we have these three punishments [00:38:00] that God in acts right?

Well, one of the punishments involves that infamous line. Right. And he will rule over you Right. That the, that the man shall rule over the woman in the social order. So it's an establishment, it's a justification Yep. Of patriarchy. Right. And, and even the subservience of women to men. But that is a punish.

Right. Yeah. And we, we, we haven't dwelled on that part of the story, right? Yeah. Yeah. If it's a punishment, it means that it wasn't that way in the original creation. It was not God's original intention. It's a change, right. In the order of things. Mm-hmm. Right. And if it's a change in the order of things, then that begs this, you know, raises this deep critical question, what are Christians called to live for?

Well, if we believe that Christ has brought redemption to the world, then shouldn't we be living on behalf of God's original intentions? Yeah. Rather than accepting the broken order that results from sinfulness and then hoping for something better. Shouldn't we be [00:39:00] working for something better? Because that's what God desires.

And as Christians, we are called to align our will, our, our mind, our understanding our hearts with what God intends. Yeah. So I think that, that, that. Shift. Right? Right. From it's a shift to brokenness from an original perfection is so critical. But I ask, you know, why hasn't the tradition talked about that?

You know, why hasn't that been our focal point? Well, it legitimates things like patriarchy, you know? And I, and I, I think that at times we've wanted that, you know? Yeah. Right. And so there's a lot there when we go back to scripture and we really do this deep work. So in the first couple of chapters, you know, on the Hebrew Bible in New Testament, I try to do some of that deeper work.

Mm-hmm. And, and get back to some of, um, that, to, to reconstruct a vision of who God is in relationship to the world as a foundation for this.

Andrew Camp: Right. So. We're to engage this work. Like Jesus engaged this work and as Jesus engaged this work, [00:40:00] he got killed. Like, yes. It literally cost him his life. Like, uh, you know, and so, like, it's not always easy.

No. But, and I, and I think, you know, that's again, there's so many misconceptions around what flourishing and this life is gonna be like, like it's just up and to the right. But we're going to hit, you know, as we engage with the powers and the principalities or, you know, whatever is going on that, you know, seeks to destroy, like we're going to hit forces and people that want to literally kill us.

Mm-hmm. And so where does, how does the cross give shape to a theology of flourishing?

Paul Schutz: Absolutely. That's a wonderful way to ask the question. Um, the cross as. The death and resurrection of Jesus. I wanna, I wanna put them together. Yes. You know, you know, I think of Wolfhard Denberg, right? The great, uh, Lutheran theologian, you know, who, um, says, you know, that in the Protestant context, I think it's true in the Catholic context too, that, that, [00:41:00] you know, it's often been missed, that the cross is meaningless without the resurrection and the resurrections meaningless without the cross, right?

Yep. We can focus on one or the other. Um, so, so that, I would just name that as a way in to thinking about this. Um, flourishing is the work of resurrection. I would say. That's another way we could think about it. Now I'm like, huh, maybe I have a Christology here that, that is not in the book, you know, for future, for put it on my list.

Yeah. Flourishing. You know, fostering flourishing is the work of resurrection. It is the work of bringing about the fullness of life, which is what resurrection, you know, achieves Yeah. Um, uh, for all creation and, and working on behalf of that in this world. But you're absolutely right that that does not come about christologically in the story of Jesus without the crucifixion Jesus, you know, is killed for the way he lived.

You know, that is the fundamental fact of his ministry, is that he dies because of the way he lived. Um, we are not called to death in that sense. We are not all called to [00:42:00] some sort of self-sacrifice. You know, it may happen to some, I mean, you think of the great witness in Martin Luther King. You know, you think of great witnesses to this, you know, martyrs who have been, who have lost their lives for causes of justice, who have lost their lives for the cause of the gospel.

Um, that resistance will be there. There will be. You know, forces that will wanna preserve the status quo because it empowers certain people and doesn't others, and, I mean, know there are people out there, maybe even listeners here, you know, who will hear talk of, you know, racism and women's ordination and trans folks and say like, whoa, like you're getting into territory that that's, we can't go there.

You know? Yeah. And I would say we have to go there because the love of God goes there. Hmm. And that might involve struggling against institutions that might involve, you know, having uncomfortable conversations with pastors or friends or whatever it might be. Especially in the current political climate.

I mean, these things come up, you know, but, [00:43:00] um, no one should be starving to death under the veil of war, you know, war as I've. Said in, as I say in the book, like I, I have a section of peace and I, war is a choice. War is not necessary in a, in a sort of Christian eschatological vision. War is a choice that we make, right?

Um, it's not human nature. It's not political. We, we've created all those systems. They can be different systems. Yeah. And I think that's the part that we often miss when we think about crucifixion and resurrection, is that Jesus operated with a vision of the world that was basically sort of, you know, rooted in this commitment that like the world doesn't have to be this way.

You know, my faith doesn't have to be this way. Um, and yes, he died for that and there will be struggle, but the love of God brings hope and life out of struggle. And we as Christians are, are, I think, called to be committed to that love in its fullness and know that in the struggle we are not alone, we are with others.

We can find community, we can [00:44:00] find, you know, tables for dreaming and scheming this sort of new world that we could all live in. Um, and that is part of the Christian life. So there is solace in the community. There's solace in the love of God guiding us. Um, and that's the same love that brought life outta death in the case of Jesus.

Mm-hmm. So, um, the struggle is real, as they say. Yeah. Um, but I think the struggle is part of the call. Yeah. And, and that, that image of taking up one's cross, you know, is, is so, is so, so, so vital in that, um,

Andrew Camp: yeah. It's also doing that hard work personally and inter, you know, like how, 'cause we all have our deep ingrained prejudices, like, you know?

Absolutely. And to not, like, you know, we need to name 'em as we engage in this work. 'cause we will be confronted with our own heart, you know, and our broken the brokenness within us. Um Yeah. You know, and those are hard places to be sometimes because of how we've been raised or what, how we've been shaped.

Paul Schutz: Yes. And, and a theology of flourishing. You know, I wanna be really [00:45:00] clear. It, it rarely provides answers. It always raises questions. Yeah. And, and that's, and one of those questions to use Carl Rahner's work, the Jesuit theologian of the, who's big for me in the book too, um, is maybe most fundamentally for humans.

And I wanna be explicit here for human creatures. Um, the question is the question, who are you? The question that we are to ourselves. Yeah. You know, and a theology of flourishing is always inviting us more deeply into that question. Um, which is gonna involve coming up against those hard places, coming up against those rough edges and, and seeing what it really looks like for God to make a way in the wilderness, you know, for God to, you know, make the rough places plain so that we can all walk that path of life individually and collectively.

Right. So I think that's a really beautiful way to talk about it.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And so, you know, because again, to return to food and the table, like where, yeah. Where can food and table then enter into this space of creating flourishing or mm-hmm. You know, and we've talked about hospitality, but [00:46:00] I'm curious, like where would food sit in this, this construction of flourishing for you?

Paul Schutz: Yeah, it's so central and, and I want to think about it both, um, without waxing too, sort of romantic here. Yeah. Think about it, both Eucharistically and sort of, you know, the table. Um, I'll start with the Eucharistic 'cause it's, it's pretty simple. I mean, this, this project was most profoundly, I think, born of my experience working in ministry, in this thriving community that gathered at the Eucharistic table Sunday after Sunday and, and was transformed in these radical ways that I never, uh, I never had experienced before.

I probably never will again. I say that all the time. It was something that, and it doesn't exist anymore. The place, the spirit, it's all changed, right. Um, unfortunately, you know, this place does not exist anymore as it was in the time that I was there. And, um. That was just so, so, so profound for me, um, to see that and, and so much so that in my own questioning, [00:47:00] my own seeking right of myself, um, I was awakened to a desire to out of my passion for what was happening there, which is a passion for, I think, God working within the community to say.

Okay. What is going on here and why don't we have more churches like this? Yeah. Um, and, and what would it mean? How can I do the work of cultivating communities like this one, like St. Mary? And that was what took me to theology. So that's in my own personal example of how this discernment happened in community around a table.

Mm-hmm. As far as the other food piece goes. Well, I think it's wonderful, and it's also kind of complicated and multifaceted because as a person that cares deeply about, you know, ecology and food on the sort of justice side, I. It's going to, a theology of flourishing is going to reorient our relationship to our food, and it's gonna ask really critical questions about what we're eating, where it comes from, who produced it, how they were paid, you know, how the land was worked, [00:48:00] all of that kind of stuff.

And I won't get too into the weeds of that, but it raises deep questions of food systems and sourcing and production, and maybe even the act of gardening, farming ourselves right in our backyards. Mm-hmm. I always say every yard is a garden waiting to be grown. Yeah. Americans love yards, right? Yeah. But you can grow stuff in that soil, right?

Yeah, yeah. Uh, you know, to think about it in, in those kinds of ways, to be creative because the love of God is there, working through that, through every tomato on the vine, through every, you know, hot pepper. We can produce whatever it is. So our relationship to our food is a big part of the table. And then the other piece is that that individual and collective discernment, I think happens in a, in a joyful and profound way when people gather around good food to share and, and share.

Because that sharing of food is also involves, it also leads to sharing of ourselves. It is sharing of who we are. There's something about sitting around and snacking or, you know, sharing a pizza or a kid [00:49:00] or whatever it is, right? That opens us up to others that grounds community. And so I think that, you know, and this is kind of again, a run area and Carl, we're on our way of thinking about it.

Um, that it, it's not in the big mystical experiences that we find this work of discernment, that we find this work of God's grace among us. It's in the every day. Yeah. It's in every moment of every day. You know, the Ignatian tradition has this wonderful axiom finding God in all things. Yeah. And they don't mean by that.

Like finding God in the good and the bad in some sort of saccharin way. They mean like really in all things. Mm-hmm. In every corner of creation, in this conversation, in all the conversations, you know, any of us has, uh, with the, with each other, with the world, God is present there. And so where, how could God not be present?

Right. Right. In the sharing of a meal when Jesus, you know, placed the sharing at the meal of the meal at the center of his own ministry. Um, and I think just by knowing that and attuning ourselves to it and saying, [00:50:00] God is present here, the meal can become, sharing food can become a training ground for sharing ourselves with the world.

Yeah. And that in itself is very eucharistic. Right. For sure. Uh, that is a paradigm of the Eucharist. Right. Um, and, and I think there's something really beautiful in that because food nourishes us and it, and it strengthens us to do the work. Right. Yeah. That we are called to do. And that, that in my mind is the work of flourishing always, um, our own flourishing and, and cultivating the flourishing of others.

So those are a bunch of different ways Yeah. That when you ask that question at the table and flourishing, um, that those are, those are the things that, you know, light up for me.

Andrew Camp: Right. No, and I think, you know, the, the stories our food and our dishes tell, like there's a story behind Oh yeah. Your grandma's Lebanese cooking and there's stories behind, um, ethnic groups and the food and the, you know, how they prepare it.

Yes. And, and sometimes those stories are born out of pain and sorrow. Um, you know, and sometimes they're born out of joy and celebration. And so I think too, being [00:51:00] attuned to how current systems of war or drought, um, wreak havoc on food and, you know, we lose aspects, um. Of what? Of culture, because when, you know, war happens, food is destroyed.

Um, yes,

Paul Schutz: absolutely. And, and like you said, food mediates to us or you know, it mediates our cultures to us. Yeah. It brings, uh, it has history, it has, it carries stories Right. Of, of joy and of struggle. Absolutely. I think that's wonderful.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. That's brought to light. 'cause there's this new book, um, it's called My Last Sweet Bite, um, by, um, Michael, I don't know how to pronounce his last name, shake.

Um, but it's all about where war has torn apart culinary traditions and, you know, he looks at checklists of Fian food, um, you know, and what Soviet, um, you know, the Soviet brain did to them, you know, and how they, what they lost, um, you know, and how do you regain [00:52:00] food? Yeah. You know, in a once communist black country.

Paul Schutz: It makes me think too, of course, Gaza, right? Yeah. Like the situation that we're dealing with right now, you know, we're talking a lot about the starve, the intentional starvation of the Palestinian people. There's, but it's not just starvation. I mean, it's principally starvation from food, right? Right. Where there actually bodily needs and you know, there's something about that in the gospel, I would say.

Uh, but beyond that, there is the fact that, and I say this as somebody that you know, has Lebanese heritage, um, the fact that food and the communal table is the center of the culture, right? Yeah. There is a starvation for the culture and the destruction of the culture that is happening through starvation is a, an added dimension of violence, an added dimension of, of harm that is happening.

I think that's really, really, really, um, illuminating.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, I think we could keep going and, you know, keep talking about Fluor course we could food, but we may lose [00:53:00] listeners, you know, after a certain mark, you know? No, no. Um, but like, as I think you've given us some frameworks, you know, and some beautiful aspects, you know, any, like if people want to engage in this work, you know, and do this, like where, what's a step they can take?

Like, you know, 'cause this, this has been a very heady, you know, in some ways, you know, discussion. Mm-hmm. And so like, yeah. How do we, how do we help people move or communities, whether it's a church or even just a small group of people, you know, a couple people like Yeah. How do people begin to move forward?

Paul Schutz: Yeah. So. I would say first and foremost, listen first and foremost, cultivate practices of deep listening and attunement. Be observant. Look up from your phone. You know, look at the world. Um, try to attune oneself ourselves to the world as God's creation. And see the ways in which God's life giving intentions, God's intentions, that all things may flourish are at [00:54:00] work around us.

And I think that that's an act of, it's a spiritual practice in a way. It's kind of a meditation to say, I'm gonna look for the signs of life around me, and then let that attentiveness become a framework for understanding what it means to live as a Christian, as a follower of Jesus in the world.

Because when we attune ourselves to that, we can come to see both where that fullness of life is present and where that fullness of life is absent. And that happens again, individually and collectively. We can bring that to our churches, right? Yeah. We can use that as a framework for saying, Hey, that sermon, that message that homily was not really good.

It actually kind of destroyed the lives of many, or it was wonderfully enlivening. Can we have more please? Yeah. You know? Right. Those kinds of things. So it becomes a paradigm of, of our ecclesial life as well. Mm-hmm. Um, it can lead us to take political action, right. If we, uh, are attuned in a particular way to the reality in our [00:55:00] local community, and we have others who, you know, as church communities or as families or whatever.

Are impassioned about something that's going on, it can lead us to serve in new ways. So really it's, it's in an invitation into that work of discernment. Yeah. On behalf of that, and I think it starts with listening, it starts with attunement. And if I may say, of course, I think it starts with, with sharing, right?

Yeah. Ourselves and food, and, you know, being a table in new ways with others, inviting others to the table. Yeah. Um, is probably one of the most profound ways that we can open ourselves up to discovering the, the heightened breadth and depth and, and reach of God's love and God's intention. That all things may flourish, because it gets us out of our preconceived notions of what that fullness of life means, and into the, the fullness of the fullness, so to speak, by listening to others, by attuning ourselves to others.

It brings us into new ways of perceiving the [00:56:00] fullness of life for others and for ourselves. And I think out of those practices we can discover evermore fully, uh, those life-giving tensions of God at work around us in every moment.

Andrew Camp: No, yeah. That deep listening and attunement, you know, and hospitality. Hospitality. Yeah. I had one when I was starting my master's program. I had one spiritual director say like, spiritual direction is, you know, one ear towards the directee and one ear towards, towards Jesus. Um, you know, and I sometimes think of what you're saying of like this attunement, um, and discernment of like, okay, how do we listen, you know, to the world, to people with one ear towards them and one ear towards Jesus?

And how might those two, that two aspects of listening inform my being in the world? Um. It's, it's a beautiful image and I think it's,

Paul Schutz: that is the heart of discernment. Yeah. Is listening in that way.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Um, it's a question I I use to wrap up. Um, what's the story you want the church to [00:57:00] tell? Hmm.

Paul Schutz: I love that question.

I want the church to tell the story of God's love as an intention that draws all creation into the fullness of life. And in doing that provides a way for us to understand what it means to be followers of Jesus in our own HIAs and our business. Uh, and in with, with a view toward the thisness of others, on behalf of this vision, of the fullness of life and cultivated in, in love of the world.

Andrew Camp: Beautiful. Um, and then some fun questions about food as we wrap up. What's one food you refuse to eat? There isn't one Oh, wow. That I can think of. Okay.

Paul Schutz: Yeah. There is nothing, there are things that I would prefer not to eat. Yeah. Uh, but, but I will, I will still eat them. Okay. Um, I've never, I've never [00:58:00] met a food that I absolutely wouldn't try.

Andrew Camp: Okay. You're the first. Yeah. Really. That's the first,

Paul Schutz: yeah. Yeah. Everybody has something usually. No, I, I really, I really can't think of anything. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, that's fair. Then on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Paul Schutz: Oh, gosh. Um, that's a really hard one for me because I love food and I, I, you know, but I'll say, uh, one of the best things I've ever eaten, um, a couple of meals that I, I would name one is there's a restaurant in the Museum of Modern Art in New York called the Modern.

Okay. That has, it was one of the best meals I've ever had in my life. Hmm. Um, and recently. When I was traveling in Asia, in in Japan, in Tokyo, there's a restaurant in Eno Park called Inste that was recommended to me by, by one of my colleagues. And as part of one of the meals I had this vegetarian multi-course [00:59:00] thing that they did.

They brought out a bucket of freshly made tofu and a house made soy sauce and some toppings. And all you do is scoop the tofu, put the toppings, pour the sauce over it. And it was one of the best things I've ever eaten in my entire life. Wow. And I didn't know that tofu could be like that. I love tofu, but Yeah.

But this was on another level,

Andrew Camp: I'm sure.

Paul Schutz: So if you're ever in to Tokyo, go to Ano Park, eat it in Sope. It was incredible.

Andrew Camp: Wow. No, that does sound in incredible like Yeah. 'cause I think we associate tofu with the mass produced store bought shop that has no flavor. Like it's fine. Yeah. Like we can hide. We can disguise the flavor.

You can flavor things with it. Yeah, yeah,

Paul Schutz: yeah. But this was a bucket of freshly made to real, truly a bucket. Right. And you scoop it out into a bowl and it was unlike anything I've ever eaten.

Andrew Camp: Oh, wow. Like a soak and tofu then, I'm assuming like,

Paul Schutz: yeah. Very soft. Very soft. With the, with the toppings and sauce and magnificent.

Awesome.

Andrew Camp: And then finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in, if you knew [01:00:00] you only had one more meal left to enjoy, what would it be? So if Paul had one last meal, what might be on his table?

Paul Schutz: That's a really hard question. I am thinking of that tofu now. Im sure. Yeah. I'm thinking of the meal atte. But you know, the first image that came to mind, Andrew, when you. When you asked that was being able to be at table with friends and loved ones. Right. Uh, so whatever's on the table, I would want it to be shared.

Mm-hmm. Um, but probably, you know, honestly, now that I've thought about that, the, the thing that comes to my mind and heart is, is kic is the, the Lebanese, uh, you know, baked, baked meat dish that my grandmother used to bake, and now I make, and, and others, because it's always been sort of the core of, I think, the intersection of community and food for me.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, I love it. Yes. Most often it's, it's a, it's a mom's dish. It's a grandma's dish that makes it to people's table. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. [01:01:00] Uh, well Paul, this has been a joy. Um, likewise.

Paul Schutz: Thank you for the opportunity to talk.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. If people wanna learn more about your work, where can they, they find you?

Paul Schutz: So my webpage on the Santa Clara University website where I teach is a great place to go. Has all my publications, videos, podcasts, various things, and my book is available, you know, of course from the publisher, orus books or you know, on any other number of books, sellers as well.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, no, and do get the book.

It, it really does provide a framework there, you know, he does some great research in the history of the work, you know, and so, yeah, it's, it's a great book to dig into and, um, I do hope you sort of continue to develop. This theology of flourishing and sort of make, you know, work its way out. Um, yeah. Into more aspects.

Thank you.

Paul Schutz: Yeah, I hope to as well. You've already planted a seed that wasn't planted before, uh, with this idea of flourishing as the work of resurrection. So I'm gonna hold onto that. There you go. And think about a Christology. Thank you for planting that seed.

Andrew Camp: [01:02:00] I hope it's a good seed. You know, not another.

I think it

Paul Schutz: will, I think it fell on good ground, so. Oh, good. Good. There you go. Alright,

Andrew Camp: awesome. So if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing it with others. Thanks for joining us on this episode of the biggest table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food.

Until next time, bye.