The Biggest Table

Episode 19 (Lore Wilbert)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] This episode of the biggest table is brought to you in part by wild goose coffee. Since 2008, wild goose has sought to build better communities through coffee. And for our listeners, wild goose is offering a special promotion of 20% off a one-time order using the code table at checkout. To learn more and to order coffee, please visit wild goose coffee. Dot com.

Also, please join me at theology beer camp, October 17th, through the 19th in Denver, Colorado. Theology beer camp is a unique three-day conference that brings together theology, nerds, and craft beer for a blend of intellectual engagement, community building and fun. And because I'm one of the God pods at the conference, you as a listener can receive $50 off your ticket by using the code biggest table for camp. All caps, no spaces when you register, I hope to see you there.

In this episode of the biggest table, I enjoy a rich conversation with author, Lore Wilbert about her latest book, the understory. The discussion delves into themes of nature, grief, and [00:01:00] presence as Lore shares her personal journey of finding comfort in healing and the forest. She elucidates how the forest regenerative processes paralleled her own experiences with faith and personal hardship. The conversation highlights the importance of being present, even in moments of pain, and how moving forward in life, doesn't always mean solving everything at once. Lore also reflects on the significance of community and the role of the table in fostering, honest and deep conversations. The episode concludes with insights into Lore's upcoming move and looking forward to an unknown future with hope rooted in faith. I hope you enjoy the episode.

Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another. And today I'm thrilled to be joined by Lore Wilbert.

Lore has written three books, the award winning Handle With Care, [00:02:00] as well as A Curious Faith,

And most recently, The Understory. She has a master's in theology, spiritual formation, and leadership from Friends University, and a bachelor's in English from Lee University. Her work has been published in many national publications as well as in several anthologies. She and her husband live on the edge of a river flowing from the Adirondacks in upstate New York with their two pups. When she's not writing, she likes to kayak, be in the forest, make art with paper, and garden.

So thanks for joining me today, Lore. It's, I'm really excited about this conversation as my wife and I have started reading your book and really, the writing's beautiful, um, but more importantly, we love the themes that are coming from it.

So thank you. Thanks,

Lore Wilbert: Andrew. Thank you. Thanks for saying that.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No. Um, undergrad degree from English, I was like, okay, your, your writing just is poetic. It's inviting. It's, um, yeah. And you just tell a wonderful story in your book. And so thank you.

Lore Wilbert: Thank you. Thanks [00:03:00] for saying that.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Um, so your most recent book is the understory and what drew me to it is it's sort of your journey into the forest really.

Um, and just the story underneath the story. So what was sort of the Genesis of this new book of yours? Yeah.

Lore Wilbert: It's a good question. Yeah. So I started out the book telling the story of tree 103, which is, um, what was the tallest tree in New York and it fell, um, in a windstorm several years ago. And a friend of mine was the one to discover it having fallen.

And so he and I hiked back to it. And I think I, as we were hiking back to it, I had the sense that of just like thinking that I was going to be overwhelmingly grieved to see this, this fallen giant. And actually what I felt was like, you know, as we were hiking back through this old growth and seeing, you know, other downed trees, just seeing how the forest regenerates.

And so, uh, a [00:04:00] nearby forest professor, professor said, you know, Lived, but I, I prefer to think that she's just not vertical anymore. So the tree is still alive, still contributing nutrients to the soil and to the forest and to the regenerative nature of what ecology is. And so I think. Sort of thinking through that and thinking through a lot of the things that had happened in my own life and journey with faith and church.

I just saw a lot of parallels to like, man, I feel like I'm knocked over. Like I feel like I'm dead. But this, I was just really comforted by the idea that what if I'm still alive? I'm just not vertical anymore. And what could happen with, with us when we're not vertical anymore? Um, and Is something good there?

Is there something good to be found there?

Andrew Camp: Right, because Part of the beginning of your book too is this new breath prayer that emerges for [00:05:00] you And I won't quote the Latin because I don't speak Latin, but you know, it's really just add some This prayer that I am here, right? Yeah, and so how does that then contribute with this idea that you're not vertical but you're still

Lore Wilbert: Yeah, I think I've really been struck by the fact that like, no matter where, I mean, this, maybe this is pushing some limits for some people, but like God created man and woman from clay and scientists tell us now that, um, that actually there's like stardust.

In us, like we are partially made of stardust. And I think that idea of just like, Oh, what does it mean that like matter always matters and matter is always here and it just changes form over, you know, generations and generations and generations. It's just changing form. It's just a new sort of cellular [00:06:00] arrangement of something.

So what does that mean for me? What does that mean for me as someone who feels my. Sort of mortality pretty closely and feels pretty crushed by a lot of the things that have happened in the church in the world over the past decade. What does it mean for me to say, like, there's something so gLoreously alive and here happening and also.

What does it mean for me to not try to sort of get back to the way things used to be or like try to rush through change or growth to get to some new place, but to just simply say I'm here and you God are with me. I'm here and you God are with me and that's been I think a really formative prayer for me.

over the past four or so years to just, just take a breath and stop trying to be something I'm not, or somewhere I'm [00:07:00] not like I'm here in this form for as long as I'm here in this form. And, you know, someday I'm going to take another form.

Andrew Camp: And that's so powerful just to be present to our reality. Yeah. Um, cause I think, I know I've used the forest at times and my family and I live in Flagstaff where we're surrounded by forest and I've always loved getting out into the forest, but it's always been in a, it feels like at times.

An escape from life or, you know, and I think people use it similarly, like I just need to get out, get rid of our current life, you know, or get outside of my current being, um, you know, and, but your challenge in your invitation seems to be actually using the forest as a means and the understory as a means of actually entering more deeply into my current reality.

So what does that mean? And like, what would, how would you invite listeners [00:08:00] to experience that versus an escape?

Lore Wilbert: Such a good question. You know, I live in this area, the Adirondack region, probably similar to Flagstaff, where people come to vacation, right? Right. It's like their vacation spot. And, um, all around here, there are, You know, a lot of the sort of the old money from the city, either Rockefellers, the Carnegie's like, just like they have their old, old camps up here and they're just giant, giant places.

And a lot of those people would only spend, you know, a week or two at these palatial camps. Outposts, you know, so it was like, and then they would go to some other vacation home in the, you know, Rhode Island or the Berkshires or whatever. And it was just sort of like, no matter where they were, they wanted to be somewhere else.

And that idea, I think. It really strikes something in me because I, I think I struggle with that too. It's like, no matter where I am, I, I kind of want to be somewhere else. And it's not that [00:09:00] I hate where I am, or I think there's not like good things happening here, but it's just this belief that like, it might be better somewhere else.

You know, I might feel more rested somewhere else. It might be more beautiful somewhere else. It might be this or that somewhere else. And I think there's just a lot of power in, in saying like, but I'm not, this is where I am. And like, I am, I am like, not even, I am here, but simply I am like, I'm here, I am.

And what does God want to do with me and in me and through me in this place? And I think it's, it's, it takes a lot of discipline for us. to do that because I think we're afraid or we're angry or there's some sort of emotion that we don't want to face happening, um, you know, sort of just below the surface.

And so it's easier to kind of run away instead of being here. [00:10:00]

Andrew Camp: And so listeners, I just encourage you, you know, wherever you are this season, just to think, okay, where, how can you be more present, you know, and, um, I know for me, it's the summer and so kids require more, it seems, and so how, how to be just here, um, and I love that.

Um, I am versus where do I want to be or what do I want life to look like? Um, you know, that's just such a beautiful invitation and it is so hard because we want things to work out a certain way and then God comes along and smashes what we think seems to happen. And that seems to be what your book comes out of is a lot of pain and sorrow, but finding new life.

Um, yeah.

Lore Wilbert: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think it's a lot easier just to say that on this side of things, you know, when you're actually walking through it, when you're [00:11:00] actually going through the sort of decomposition process and, um, you know, the ways that I talk about, you know, trees essentially decomposing and making way for a new life to come.

Like it doesn't feel that doesn't feel gLoreous. That doesn't feel no, no part of that feels good. Um, It hurts. And, you know, a lot of times we go kicking and screaming through that. I did. You know, I'm not, I don't, I don't try to like gLorefy that process at all in this book. Um, I did find beauty in it. I am finding beauty in it.

Uh, but I am still finding a heck of a lot of heartache in it. Like I'm, I never want to say on this side of things, it's, it's, you know, Now I'm the tallest tree in New York. I don't say that. Like, yeah, I'm, I am still, you know, fallen. I am still not vertical anymore. And I've just learned to find some, [00:12:00] some goodness in that space.

Andrew Camp: Because we still carry the trauma. We still carry the hurt. Um, it doesn't go away. Um, but you also, you quote from, you know, basal under cloak, right? Um, that body keeps the score, you know, and you mentioned that when we try to run from our, or to summarize what he says, he, when, you know, when we try to run from our trauma, we actually close ourselves off.

Lore Wilbert: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Um, which again is such a hard thing. And so what was, you know, How did that process look like for you in the forest or in various avenues to enter into instead of run?

Lore Wilbert: Yeah.

I think for me, I, I can tend to sort of think about pain a lot. Um, I'm, I'm, I'm a pretty good mental processor. Um, not so good at verbal processing, not so good at physical processing. Um, and so I [00:13:00] think for me, I have to make things tangible, physical. Um, touchable, um, they have to have some matter to them in order for me to, I think, metabolize, uh, the pain.

And if I just stay in this place where I'm just thinking about it, it's just never gonna, it's never gonna move through me. And so, um, And that takes different forms. You know, you read my bio. I forget when that bio was written, but like, kayaking, making art with paper, going to the forest, um, doing things with my hand, gardening, um, even just like snuggling my dog, like doing something with my body helps to sort of, you know, Move that, move that grief through and, um, and produce something from it.

You know, I talk a lot about decomposition and soil and, um, and, [00:14:00] uh, I love Mary Oliver's poem, things take the time they take. And, um, that's how, The decomposition process works, but something is moving constantly in that, in that decomposition process to turn something into like really good, beautiful soil.

Um, but it's got, it's got to move,

Andrew Camp: you know, you and I both love the work of Norman Wurzba. Um, you know, and he's transformed my understanding of soil just because he writes. About just the microorganisms and the intricacy and the community and that maybe life isn't about survival of the fittest, but survival in community and working, you know, things working in their natural systems.

Um, you know, and that feels like an apt metaphor for, for pain and all of life, really, but just that. Something is always working, you know, and out of, and that's the idea of Christianity too, that out of death comes [00:15:00] new life, but we seem so

reluctant, I guess, to, to, to enter into that. And I know for myself, it's hard to like, you know, I don't do this. Well, um, yeah, none of us do it well, but there's always this invitation and no matter where we go, there's that invitation. And so I don't. Not sure the question, but I think how, where, how do we begin to see life like that then, you know, and I, um,

Lore Wilbert: So that's a really good question.

Like, how do we, how do we like sort of draw that ecological truth and like get it inside of us? Yeah. Yeah. I really love Diane Langberg has this quote that she says, um, all healing takes time, tears and talking. And in the book I sort of allude to, [00:16:00] um, The time it takes to decompose the, the tears, uh, the, so that there's this, there's this sort of the time that it takes to decompose, but also like this, the decomposition process needs water.

So we've got to have some tears, but also like we need talking, we've got to have other microorganisms. And so just the way that the soil sort of. Becomes the, it's best version of itself in, in the same way we need that too. We need time, things don't happen quickly and they in fact happen much longer than like even when we're like, hasn't it been enough time yet?

Yeah, probably not, probably needs more time, but we also need tears. We need to, like I said earlier, we need to have physical. expressions of that grief. We can't just think our grief. We have to, we have to enact it, but we also need talking. And that's, for me, that has been a real learning curve. I'm not, I'm not a verbal processor, don't have a [00:17:00] super high tolerance for, or feel like I have a huge need for a ton of friends.

I'm just not wired like that. Usually if I say it once, I'm like, okay, I said it. I don't need to say it again. And one of the things I've had to learn is that sometimes we need to say things four or five or six times to, um, you know, Kurt Thompson talks about that. Speaking to attuned listeners. So, uh, looking for people who are looking for us.

He talks about that in the soul of shame. And so I've had to sort of trust that process of like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to look for people who are looking for me and I'm going to actually verbalize painful things out loud, even though that's incredibly difficult for me. Um, and in some ways it makes me feel, um, Like, my grief takes longer, like I'm [00:18:00] like, if I'm still talking about it, that means it's not dealt with, but it actually is moving the grief through me.

It is turning me into something new and, and it's necessary.

Andrew Camp: No, for sure. And that phrase from Kurt Thompson, I love it. Looking for people who are looking for me. Yeah. Yeah.

Lore Wilbert: I think he opens his book, the soul of shame. If we come into the world looking for people who are looking for us and just the idea of like babies coming into the world, you know, looking for people who are looking for them.

And I think, you know, I'm 42 and I'm still looking for people who are looking for me. Um, I think we all are, and I think we can shame ourselves for that in a lot of ways. Like you should be fine. You shouldn't need people who are looking for you, but, um, Um, that's not who God made us to be. So no,

Andrew Camp: not at all.

And I think at times when we're experiencing grief, finding those people who are willing to sit and listen for the long haul is really hard. [00:19:00] Um, my wife and I are coming through a year of a lot of hurt and pain and crushed dreams too. And at times, you know, the first week people were willing, you know, and able.

But after a while, they, I don't know if they forget negligently, you know, it's not, there's nothing spiteful about it. They, but they're not in it as well. And so it feels hard at times when you're in the midst of a grief cycle to, to find people who are looking for you because you feel like nobody's looking for you or nobody remembers or cares.

And so, you know, and I know you said you're not a verbal processor, but how do you in the midst of the pain that is longer than we expect and want it to be? How do we engage that feeling like we're a burden to people at times?

Lore Wilbert: I think for me, it's taken some really intentional conversations in my friendships. It's [00:20:00] been me saying the words, I feel like a burden. When I say this and I'm practicing the virtue of feeling like a burden, like taking away sort of the moral shame or moral wrong that we attribute to feeling like a burden.

Why do we think that's wrong to feel like a burden? Um, somehow that's gotten into us, whether it's just because we're Americans or Western Christians. I don't know where it came from, but it's gotten in there. And I think we've attributed some sort of moral wrong to it. And I, I just, I think saying aloud, like I'm practicing feeling like a burden and like the virtue of feeling like a burden to someone is really good for me.

Uh, I think it has been one of the best disciplines of my life in the past few years to say, Oh, I'm going to take up some space in this friendship. I'm going to take up, I'm going to willing, be willing to take up space. Cause I tend to be the person [00:21:00] who is a listener and asks a lot of questions. And I feel, I don't know if I'm an empath, but I feel really in tune to people's suffering.

And. And have this like, I don't know whether it's a compulsion or whatever, but to just sort of like draw things out of people, you know, like when you talk about having a bad year, my first inclination is not to continue talking about me, it's to be like, Oh my God, what happened? And how are you? And how are you proud?

Like what? Yeah. Like it's, it's to like draw you out. But I think, um, I've had to learn to, Let myself be drawn, drawn out and to do that has taken some intentional conversations and it has also meant some broken relationships because there are some friendships that can't make that shift and, um, and I don't, I don't fault them for that.

Like, maybe they're learning something [00:22:00] different right now and that's okay, but it's really hard to find people who are looking for us. But I do think that saying the words aloud as much as we can. Um, helps us to feel a little bit more seen and, um, and willing to be seen. It's like so uncomfortable to be seen.

Right. Yeah. And I think saying the awkward parts, my husband and I always joke that like, we're totally fine with awkward silence. Like some people might like rush to fill that space and we're like, Nope, we're just going to listen and let it be awkward because something good's going to come out of, you know, Norman wears, but it talks about hospitality is making space for the other and cultivating the life of the other and then liberating the other into their life.

I love that quote so much, but I love the idea of just like, what does it mean to make space for the other, like to expand ourselves? And what does it mean to like [00:23:00] for me to enter into the space that's been made for me? And it doesn't happen very often to be honest, but the friendships where it does happen, those are lifelines for me and spaces where I want to be really rooted in.

Andrew Camp: And we always get this idea too, as we think, well, if I make space for others, I have to shrink.

Lore Wilbert: Yep,

Andrew Camp: um,

Lore Wilbert: Enneagram nine here. Yeah. Yeah,

Andrew Camp: right, you know, and so I think it's just that Challenge, you know, and again, I think it's rooted in American ism, I think, where it's, you know, if I don't get mine, there's not going to be enough for me.

Um, but again, what I love about the table is that there's always space for more. And what Jesus shows us in the gospels is at the table, people can be who they are, you know, and to be okay with that, you know, like he made space for the Pharisees. He made space for the sinners, the tax collectors. [00:24:00] Um, and so what does the, how has the table then been transformed as you've entered into this story?

Lore Wilbert: This is a hard one for me because so much of our story the past four ish years has meant so much grief and loss. Like I think before 2020 we were the table. We were the hosts. Like people were at our house all the time. We were always, you know, pulling tables together to make the table longer and um, You know, serving food together and eating food together and having intentional conversations around the table.

That was just kind of who we are. Um, we moved in 2020 and then there were some pretty big relational, which I talk about in the books and pretty big [00:25:00] relational, um, chasms that were created. And, and so the table for us, I think in a lot of ways has grown a lot smaller. Um, I'm, I say that, but I'm also, I think with, with the shrinking of our table, it's actually created some like deeper, better conversations.

I think. Yeah. I think about our neighbors who are total pagans. Um, we love them. We adore them. They can't, they've come for Christmas a couple of times in the past couple of years. And one year, um, You know, it's just, they're an older couple and we were sitting over charcuterie talking about Jesus for like two hours talking about Jesus and like having a really candid conversation about Jesus.

And we made space for their anger and hurt and heartbreak at the ways Christians have treated them through the years. And they made space for us too, as like Jesus followers who are sort of sorting through the mess of [00:26:00] what the church looks like these days. So in some ways our table has become smaller, but it's become.

I think more honest, if that makes sense. And I think that's, that feels surprising to me. It's something I think I would have said five, six years ago, I would have said, no, we're, we set an honest table. And I think we did. We tried to, but, um, I think grief changes you, like I said, on like a cellular level and you're able to like, be.

A little bit more honest, maybe,

Andrew Camp: and it was, it just evolves, you know, what honest looks like I think at various points changes, you know, and so it's again, like what you said about friends not being able to hold that space for you. I think it's the same for ourselves of like the table, as long as I think we're open to what you know, the table should look like [00:27:00] for us at various moments.

Um, I think it is a beautiful table and I have no doubt that your table was beautiful and lively at that time, but. You know, you can't go back. You wouldn't go back to what it once was, even in the midst of all the pain and sorrow and shrinking of it. But no, sometimes, yeah, because I think we think the table has to ever get bigger, and that's the main, my podcast is The Biggest Table.

Lore Wilbert: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: But you found a bigger table through, through shrinking and through grief and through pain.

Lore Wilbert: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: And I,

Lore Wilbert: I have hopes that someday, you know, our table will be pulling tables together again. No. Right. But we'll be different people when that happens. And um, I look forward to that.

Andrew Camp: And that's, I think the, again, it goes back to your prayer. I am here, you know? And so wherever we are, what does here look like? Um, [00:28:00] you know, and another quote I loved, you know, and it resonated with me, um, you know, as you talk about the snow, you know, but, you know, and you had that phrase, snow on snow on snow, you know, and I feel like in Rosetti

Lore Wilbert: poem.

Andrew Camp: Okay. Yeah. And being in Flagstaff, we get snow and sometimes it's snow on snow on snow, but you write that, but beneath the snow on snow on snow, there is life there yet, perhaps not the gLoreous life we envisioned for ourselves, but something that is here. Right here being, um, and I just love that quote.

Cause again, you know, on Easter in Flagstaff this year, we got six inches of snow, and so it's not the Easter. I'd hoped for it was just snow on snow on snow and, you know, our girls are trudging through snow and their Easter dresses and, you know, sandals, but

Lore Wilbert: yeah.

Andrew Camp: And so like we, I, I saw the snow and it was, I remember even meeting with my spiritual director on Good Friday of like, we're going to get snow and I want green.

I want new life. [00:29:00] Like I want, but your point is underneath the snow on snow on snow is something is, is regenerating. Um, but again, it was hard for me to see. So how. In the midst of snow, in the midst of waiting for new growth, how How do, I guess it is just being present to I am here, but is there, was there more to that quote of like, what does it mean to, to see beneath the snow?

Lore Wilbert: I talk in my chapter on, uh, fungi, um, or maybe it's the chapter on lichen, actually I talk about, um, Labyrinths and I, I, you know, I tell the story of driving out to a labyrinth in the Adirondacks here and I got there and it was just covered by, you know, two feet of snow and I knew I'd brought my snowshoes and I.[00:30:00]

Pulled them on and I, you know, hiked up to the top of the hill and I was hoping that there would be, you know, even the form of these rocks or something that I would be something, some indication of direction. And there was nothing, it was just like a flat field with some like bamboo sticks stuck at like the entrance and the.

And the center and I was like, Oh, I might as well just go home. But then I was like, nah, whatever. I know the shape of the Santa Rosa labyrinth and I'm just going to walk it. And so I just started to walk in this big, wide open field where, you know, two feet beneath that is this beautiful Santa Rosa labyrinth.

Um, and you know, I talk about how sometimes we're just putting one foot in front of the other. We're just like, We're trusting that something good is happening somewhere, even though we can't see it, we're just, we're just walking forward. And, and I think that's, it's so tempting in the [00:31:00] middle of grief to just, and I do this all the time is just to like hunker down and like, And, you know, when there's snow for weeks and months on end, that's all you want to do is just hunker down.

And by Easter, you're like, I'm tired of hunkering down, I want to get out. Um, and that's the way it is here too. Like it's, we're still, you know, it's still cold on Easter. And I think it's just a good reminder to me that like, Even though I can't see the work that's happening, even though I can't see the path ahead, like I can still move forward.

I can still push through and, um, and, and yeah, I looked back halfway through my. You know, quote labyrinth and the path was a mess. It was, it didn't look like a labyrinth at all. It looked like somebody was crazy walking back and forth in the middle of this field. And I thought at that moment, like, I'm just going to give up.

And, but I didn't, I just kept going. Um, who cares if you look crazy? Who cares if you have [00:32:00] no idea what's happening? Like, I think I saw this, I saw this thing, uh, this real, someone sent me. On Instagram this week, there was like a spiritual awakening and it was this little boy who is on a, um, a zip line through, I don't know, some like massive zip line and he's like, no, no, no.

And then he's like, yes, yes, yes. Oh, this is so cool. Oh my God. This is horrible. Like he just has like every level of emotions during the zip line. It was like, just so beautiful. Cause I'm like, yeah, that's how it feels like sometimes to just. Just walk on snow and trust that something good is happening.

Like I don't know, but I'm, I'm going to walk, I'm going to move, I'm going to move my body forward and trust that the God is still alive in that something good is happening underneath it all.

Andrew Camp: No, for sure. Yeah. And that keep walking, keep moving, um, you know, [00:33:00] it is so hard in the midst of pain because you just, um, you know, I think at times for myself in the midst of pain, I just want to like, okay, I just want to deal with it.

Stop. Like, let, let all of life stop. Like, let me just deal with it and move on. But the invitation from you and from the forest is, you know, we just, we keep walking. We keep journeying. and trusting that something will happen.

Lore Wilbert: There's this beautiful, um, moment when I'm, uh, it's toward the end of the book when I'm, I'm in this forest and my, my intention wasn't to hike.

It wasn't to take a walk. Even I say it was to move from here to here to here. And I think so often when we think like, If I'm going to be here and be present, that means I just need to stay present and stay here. But no, I can be here and then I can move to here and then I can move to here. [00:34:00] So saying that I am here doesn't mean I'm not moving.

It just means that I am present to where I'm moving to. And that's really hard because like you said, we just want to like kind of hunker down and be like, okay, I'm going to solve it. And then I'm going to, then I'm going to go to there. Yeah. No, you're not. You're going to get there and it's going to, you're going to have another thing.

You've got to process through grief or whatever. It's just part of the human experience.

Andrew Camp: No, it is, you know, and so I'm curious because you, you've written on sort of rootedness and finding stability and resilience, um, and now you find yourself on a new journey, embarking on a new journey of moving. Um, so what does that, how did, as you think of the upheaval of moving, because I think it is an upheaval, um, how does your story then move forward?

Lore Wilbert: Yeah, [00:35:00] I think a lot of times when we've, and again, I think this is just like American Christianity. I don't know, cause I've never been, you know, any other kind of Christian, but I think that we think. If something's hard, it must be meant for us. We just need to stay in the hard, you know, and we need to commit to it.

And if we quit or we move or we fail, or we, we say, this is not for me anymore, that we're somehow, you know, not faithful or. Whatever. And I think for us, we're coming to four years, actually this week's four years since we came up here and renovated our house and a whole bunch of things hit the fan and, um, life changed in some pretty dramatic ways for us.

And I think we've been able to say, you know, here. Has been what it is. And also here is not where we belong [00:36:00] anymore. And we feel free to leave here knowing that like, I think we've tried our best to be faithful here. We've tried our best to, um, to advocate for things that need to be advocated for, to say hard things.

Um, but we feel free to say like, this is not the place for us, um, to continue to flourish. Um, In the book I talk about how my, my, um, my mother in law calls a weed, um, Oh gosh, totally just forgot what she calls it. She says, she's just says it's a plant that's in the wrong place or something like that. Okay.

And, um, and so I've been known, I've been known to think some weeds are beautiful and to dig them up and move them from the roadside or my neighbor's garden and move them to my own. Um, cause I think some weeds are beautiful. And I talk about how Jesus. Like his whole ministry is saying like, [00:37:00] you are here, but I've come to put you here.

Like I've come to put you here in me and like his whole ministry was one of movement. It was one of helping us to see that like we are growing in soil that's not good for us or we're not going to be appreciated in that soil that that garden, but we'll be appreciated in his garden. Yeah. And like, that's okay.

I That's all right. There's no shame in that. There's no, there's nothing wrong with that. And So yeah, we're packing up our house. We're like I said to you at the beginning of this We're it's getting listed today and just sent the photos off to the realtor and we'll see what happens We have no idea what our future holds.

We'll see what happens.

Andrew Camp: So as you look forward to a future that is unclear How, four years ago, that future may have been very different for you, I'm going to guess. So, so as you look forward to the [00:38:00] unknown, like what lessons from the book do you carry with you that give you hope and resilience?

Lore Wilbert: It's really good.

I think the biggest thing is that the, the idea of I am here, which means that my home is wherever I am. Um, and I think you can say things like, well, my home is wherever my family is or wherever Jesus is, but I think where the reality is, like, I am home wherever I am. And, and that idea, I think, like I said, you know, earlier, we're always kind of looking for, um, the different place to be.

We're always kind of, you know, swiping, swiping left on life and or right. I don't know which way you're supposed to swipe on those things, but

but like if our home is here and our home isn't for me, if my home is in Jesus, then my whole life is oriented around Jesus. It's not oriented around a particular community or [00:39:00] even house, like this house, which we love, we love our house so much, but it's, it's not what I'm oriented around. I'm oriented around Jesus.

And so Jesus goes with me and, um, I can't see the future, but I, I know Jesus and I know Jesus is good. And I know he loves me and he loves us and we are loved by him. And I know that God has, um, him. God is a creator and he is already creating, um, the place for us to land. And I just don't feel, I don't know that I ever felt afraid that that wasn't true before four years ago.

But I think I, I did sort of feel a little bit more, um, self sufficient, if that makes sense. Yeah. And I just, I don't feel very self sufficient these days.

Andrew Camp: No. [00:40:00] Um, thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Um, and I think just to invite, again, listeners, if you're listening to this and you're facing an unknown future, like how can Lore's prayer, I am here be a prayer for you, um, for me, for all of us, you know, I think there's a lot of unknowns in 2024 left for us.

Lore Wilbert: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Um, and so I think just that, okay, I am here. I am loved. Um, and even if you're not a person of faith and you're listening to this, like, how do, can you be present, um, and know that you are loved, um, deeply? Um, thank you. Um, there's a question I love to ask all of my guests, um, and I'll just ask it and let you answer it.

Um, but as you think about the church, what is the story you want the church to tell?

Lore Wilbert: I[00:41:00]

want the story to be a story

about Jesus and not about agendas that we're for or against or even doctrine that we believe is historical or true, but it's the incarnate. of God, Jesus. Um, I think, you know, my husband and I have sort of, we, we have not had a church for four years, uh, which is one of the reasons that we're moving. So we really do love the church and we want to find a place to worship with believers.

Um, but one of the sort of rubrics [00:42:00] for us has been, we don't want to be in a place that's flying an American flag and we don't want to be in a place that's flying a rainbow flag. And it's not because we're against either of those two flags. necessarily. It's because we're against anything that isn't like anything that's sort of a distraction from Jesus Christ himself.

And we want to be in a place that is about Jesus for Jesus and, um, that preaches Christ alone. And we want to be, we, that's our hope for the church is that we would be Jesus followers more than we're Fox News followers or, um, whatever agenda followers, but that we would, we would be looking to Jesus, the author and the finisher of our faith.

Andrew Camp: No. Thank you. Um, and some, as we wrap up some fun questions, you know, as we transition, it's always a rough transition, but it's, you know, [00:43:00] I, um, it's a fun one. And so just some fun questions about food for you, Lore. Um, what's one food you refuse to eat?

Lore Wilbert: Refuse

raw onions.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

Lore Wilbert: I mean, unless they're pickled, I'm just not going to ever want raw onions on anything.

Andrew Camp: Okay. Fair. Then on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Lore Wilbert: Oh, um, like four years ago, I, I went to this farm to table restaurant and they had saffron, um, not muscles.

What are they called? Um, seafood, little round seafood things. Oh my God. Oysters. No. Scallops. Scallops. They had saffron scallops. And it was the best [00:44:00] thing. I will never forget how delicious and memorable that meal was. It was so delicious.

Andrew Camp: A perfectly cooked scallop is.

Lore Wilbert: Oh my God. It was like it melted in our mouth.

Yeah. It was just amazing. Yeah. And the saffron was, it was great.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. And then finally, there's a conversation amongst chefs, um, and it's a little morbid, but it's about their last meal. As in, if you knew you only had one last meal to enjoy, what would that meal be?

Lore Wilbert: You're going to laugh at me. It would be peanut butter and jelly on Jewish rye bread with corn chips.

Andrew Camp: I feel like there's a story behind this. No story.

Lore Wilbert: I don't know. It's just like the ultimate comfort food for me. Like,

Andrew Camp: okay.

Lore Wilbert: I grew up in a really big family and um, and so PB& Js were sort of the name of the game a lot of the life. And I don't know. There's something really. I grew up outside of Philadelphia, so Jewish rye bread was everywhere.

It was ubiquitous. So I don't know. I just [00:45:00] love, that's like when I'm sick, that's what I want. When I'm sad, that's what I want. So,

Andrew Camp: yeah. Do you have a favorite jam for your peanut butter and jelly?

Lore Wilbert: A strawberry jam.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

Lore Wilbert: Yeah. With whole berries in it.

Andrew Camp: Yes. Absolutely.

Lore Wilbert: None of that, none of that jelly stuff.

Andrew Camp: No.

No. Definitely a jam. Well, Lore, this is, I really appreciate your vulnerability, your invitation, um, and your wisdom, um, for people. And so if people want to learn more about your work or, um, hear more from you, where might they be able to find you?

Lore Wilbert: You can find me at Lorewilbert. com, it's l o r e w i l b e r t.

com. That's where I mostly hang out, but I'm also on Instagram at Lorewilbert. Um, and that's pretty much, that's pretty much it these days.

Andrew Camp: No, I understand. Awesome. Yeah. And for all of you listeners, do pick up The Understory. Um, [00:46:00] it's a beautiful book. Um, That, you know, I haven't quite finished yet, but, uh, you know, it's, it's one of those books that's meant to be slowly read and enjoyed, um, you know, and I think there's wisdom, so much wisdom and invitation for us in this book.

And so thank you, Lore, for your gift to the church in the midst of your grief and your pain. Um, thank you for helping others, um, including myself, give voice, uh, to what we all are experienced at some point.

Lore Wilbert: Thanks, Andrew.

Andrew Camp: My pleasure. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or sharing it with others.

Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. Until next time. Bye.