The Biggest Table

Episode 34 (Adrian Miller)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I'm your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.

And today I'm thrilled to be joined by Adrian Miller.

Adrian is a food writer, two time James Beard award winner, recovering attorney, and certified barbecue judge who lives in Denver, Colorado. He is the author of three books: Soul Food: The Surprising Story of an American Cuisine, One Plate at a Time, The President's Kitchen Cabinet: The Story of the African Americans who Have Fed our First Families from the Washingtons to the Obama's, and Black Smoke: African Americans in the United States of Barbecue. Adrian is also featured in the Netflix hit high on the hog, how African American cuisine transformed America.

So thanks for joining me today, Adrian. It's a real pleasure to be able to have this conversation with you.

Adrian Miller: Yeah, I'm blessed to be with you. Thank you.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. So I'm going to start here because in your bio, um, that you sent me, um, it says that you're [00:01:00] a A recovering attorney, you've been trained as a lawyer and you were a one time policy advisor to president Clinton and then to the Colorado governor.

But then now you're the soul food scholar. So what, what changed? What happened? Like where, you know, what went awry or actually how did you correct your path to become interested in food and, um, the history of this?

Adrian Miller: Well, the short answer is I can't hold a job, obviously, but the longer answer is, uh, yeah, so I was practicing law and I just was not fulfilled in that.

Um, it got to the point where I was singing spirituals in my office, and just to show you how rough law firm life is, white people would join in. So, um, I figured, hey, I need to do something else. So I was gonna start a, uh, open up a soul food restaurant in Denver, but then a classmate from Georgetown Law School called me out of the blue.

And she was working in the Clinton White House and asked me if I knew any people back in D. C. because they wanted to do a very quick hire for this position. [00:02:00] I said, well, tell me more about the position. And President Clinton had something called the Initiative on Race. And here is the wild idea behind the Initiative on Race.

Are you ready for this?

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Adrian Miller: If we just talked to one another and listened, we might realize that we have a lot more in common than what supposedly divides us. Wild, right?

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Adrian Miller: So, uh, that went on for about two and a half years, and the people running that said, Mr. President, you need to have an ongoing office in the White House to address these issues of race.

And so that outgrowth became the Initiative for One America. So the person I knew was working on the Initiative for One America. And when she asked me to recruit somebody else for that position, I did the same thing that Dick Cheney did when George W. Bush asked him to find a vice president. I was the head of the search committee.

My name was the only one put on the list. So I went out to D. C. and really enjoyed my time there. And I was at the tail end of Clinton's, uh, second term. Uh, and then I made my way back to, to Denver because I wanted to be in Colorado politics. Uh, so I was working for a think tank. And, [00:03:00] um, a progressive think tank called the Bell Policy Center.

Um, and then after six years there, um, I went to work for Colorado's democratic governor, Bill Ritter Jr. Uh, cause the Democrat hadn't won in Colorado in like 20 years or something like that, so it was kind of surprising to people. Um, and it really portended kind of Denver's or Colorado's more progressive shift, uh, and then he decided not to run for reelection.

So, um, I got into my present job, which is. I'm the executive director of the Colorado Council of Churches, which brings churches together to, uh, understand their common faith tradition, and then we collectively build on those relationships to do social justice work. So I've been doing that for the last, um, 13 years.

Sorry, what year is this now? Oh, 11 years. Uh, and then along the way, I developed this side hustle of writing about African American food history, and it really just started out as a hobby really as a curiosity. And then it kind of snowballed from there.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. So no. And yeah, we want to spend the majority of our time [00:04:00] talking about this history of soul food.

And so I realized just asking this question, you know, you've written books on it, so it's not fair maybe, but what, for our listeners, could you give a brief history, you know, of what soul food encapsulates, where it originated, you know, um, you know, what, what is soul food?

Adrian Miller: So soul food is a brilliantly coined term for the, one of African Americans food traditions, um, which starts, has its roots in West Africa.

Western Europe and the Americas and it all comes together in the American south. So really it's taking the ingredients techniques and traditions of West Africa And then as people are forcibly moved across the Atlantic Ocean as enslaved people and brought to the Americas The cuisine they created in by encountering all these other people So it's really one of, uh, America's earliest fusion cuisines.

So, um, just to break the answer up into a little bit, um, [00:05:00] the term soul food, a lot of people think it was coined in the 1960s because there was these very strong expressions of Black identity, but the earliest joining of the words soul and food in the English language actually goes back to Shakespeare.

Andrew Camp: Uh,

Adrian Miller: one of his early plays, The True Gentleman of Verona, there are two women, Julia and Lucetta, talking about this really sexy guy named Proteus. And he walks by in one scene and Julia says to Lucetta, Oh, knowest thou not that his looks are my soul's food? Pity the death that I find it in by longing for that food so long a time.

So one takeaway is that even in the late 16th century, not unusual for two girlfriends to get together and describe a guy as yummy. That's one thing we learned. But in the English language, soul food for 400 years meant doing anything to edify your spiritual life. So going to church, listening to a sermon, studying scripture, singing hymns.

You get to the late 1940s. You've got this cadre of African American jazz musicians who are pretty miffed because they figure that white musicians are the ones Making the most money and getting the most fame for this musical genre They felt that [00:06:00] they created and so they wanted to take the music to a place where they thought white Musicians could out mimic the sound and that was the sound of the black church in the rural South

Andrew Camp: So

Adrian Miller: this gospel infused jazz sound emerges in the late 40s and early 1950s, and the artist, the black artist, described it as soul and funky.

So it was really soul music first, soul brother, soul sister, soul food. So that's the kind of the coining of the term. Now in terms of the actual way that soul food develops, on plantations for the most part, Even the small situations where there were five or fewer, uh, enslaved people, either on urban or, uh, rural farms, or in urban settings, they got controlled amounts of food.

And so it was typically five pounds of some starch, could be rice, cornmeal, sweet potatoes, a couple of pounds of protein, usually pork, smoked, dried, salted, pickled, whatever was cheapest, and a jug of molasses. Enslaved people had to figure out how to survive, and so they had to supplement those meals by hunting, fishing, [00:07:00] gardening, and foraging.

But on Sundays, and on the weekends especially, the work schedule typically slowed for enslaved people, so they usually got kind of midday Saturday to Monday morning off. And this was the time when they could do more elaborate cooking. So the things that we often think of with soul food today, uh, like, You know, chicken or catfish or barbecue or the glorious cakes or biscuits or because they had more time and stuff to do this, even with that, making some of the things we think about with soul food today was not a frequent thing because enslaved people had limited access.

To certain ingredients like white flour, white sugar, and all of these things. So all of this is coming together in the American South during slavery, but it's really shaped by kind of what enslaved people are allowed to do on their times off. So what we think of soul food today is really the special occasion food of the South.

That gets taken out of the South after slavery and transplanted all across the country. So my, [00:08:00] um, the real kind of sharp edge in my writing, On this thing is for people to think about soul food as a migrant cuisine that plays out as people move across the country.

Andrew Camp: No, and as you talk about that, as it being a migrant, you know, cuisine, um, I was looking over, you know, and looking back over some of Michael Twitty's work.

I'm not, I'm guessing you're, you're probably familiar with Michael Twitty, um, but he talks about that, like, um, the old South is a place where people use food to tell themselves who they are to tell others who they are and to tell stories about where they've been.

Adrian Miller: Right. Yeah, I think food tells a story.

And so, um, to understand soul food as a food of movement in several ways, first from West Africa to the Americas and then within the American South and then outside the American South. So you have several movements now going on. And now because our, our. Society is so mobile you have multiple movements happening and so the cheap the food is changing in a lot of [00:09:00] interesting ways

Andrew Camp: Got you.

How how have how are you seeing it change then? And so

Adrian Miller: I would say today we have several kind of trends in soul food So there's the traditional soul food and that's the thing that people think of So the way that I wrote my book was I created a representative soul food meal And I write a chapter about every part of the meal, explain what it is, how it gets on the soul food plate, what it means for the culture.

So if you don't mind, I'd like to do some just like roll call of the meal and call and response. So people listening, you can say amen, you can snap your fingers, you can say preach to that brother, you can do whatever you want. All right.

Andrew Camp: I'm sure my audience who's predominantly white will have a hard time with it.

You know, as a white, even recovering white evangelical, you know, call and response just ain't something we're, we're familiar with. So, you know, I understand. Participate as we can.

Adrian Miller: Yeah. This is a liberating moment. Y'all do not have to be the frozen chosen. All right. Yeah. So you'll recognize some of these foods.

Uh, so entrees, fried chicken. Catfish or fried, some kind of fried fish, catfish is usually the most popular one, but [00:10:00] whiting and tilapia, chitlins, which are not for everybody, chitlins are basically pig intestines, um, either braised, uh, or stewed for a long period of time or flash fried. Um, then for the side dishes, we have greens, uh, and in soul food, the popular greens are collard, kale, mustard, turnip and cabbage.

So if you've been introduced to kale in the last five to 10 years, welcome to the party. Cause we've been eating them for about 300 and you've got black eyed peas, uh, candy jams, which are sweet potatoes, macaroni and cheese. Um, some type of bread, you know, usually cornbread, although there's plenty of wheat breads, but cornbreads I think are the most iconic in soul food.

Um, hot sauce. Uh, and then, um, red drink, because I believe that red Kool Aid is the official soul food drink, uh, and you have to understand in soul food culture, red is a color and a flavor, um, so black people, we don't get caught up in calling things cherry or strawberry that has hints of cranberry, it's just [00:11:00] red.

Um, I will say this, there's a generational shift happening, there's a lot of young people. Who like purple and blue. And as I wrote in my book on soul food, I do believe the children are our future that we should teach them well and let them lead the way, but not on Kool Aid because they're messing it up.

Uh, and then for dessert, I wrote about four pound cake, peach cobbler, banana pudding, sweet potato pie. So that's kind of traditional soul food. So in addition to that trend, we are seeing what I call down home healthy. So the idea is taking out the pork, the fat, the sugar, the salt, and creating healthy alternatives because of just health outcomes.

Now, a lot of people blame soul food for the health outcomes. We can talk about that later. I think that's unfair. But that's a trend that's emerged. And then going a step further, where you're seeing a lot of creativity right now is vegan soul food.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Adrian Miller: Um, and actually, if you go back to what enslaved people were eating on a daily basis, not on the weekends and those special occasions, it's very close to what we call vegan today.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Adrian Miller: Because [00:12:00] any protein was not Served as an entree. It was really just something to flavor the vegetables. So it was a very plant forward, as we would say now kind of diet. Um, and then another trend is, um, I'm seeing, uh, kind of like, uh, upscale soul food, right?

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Adrian Miller: So, uh, it's doubling down on the fat in the sugar and stuff, but, you know, being exotic about it.

So you might fry something and Uh, duck fat.

Andrew Camp: Yep.

Adrian Miller: Or, you know, fried chicken and schmaltz or something like that. You know, these, these kind of things. And the emphasis on presentation.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Adrian Miller: Heirloom vegetables and heritage meats, um, to charge a lot of money. Yeah. Uh,

Andrew Camp: Sean Brock has made a good fortune with these, uh, uh, native foodways and soul food.

Adrian Miller: Oh yeah, absolutely. Yep. Uh, and then the other thing I would say is kind of fusion. And so you're seeing some playfulness with looking at other ethnic cuisines and, uh, playing around with soul food. So one example is there's a guy in Atlanta who has a food [00:13:00] truck. He calls himself the Balaxican.

Don't get mad at me.

That's what he calls himself.

Andrew Camp: Yep.

Adrian Miller: Um, and he's doing like Afro Latino kind of stuff. And then you've got soul food egg rolls. So imagine a wonton filled with soul food and deep fried and it could be filled with collard greens or mac and cheese or all kinds of stuff. So you've seen that kind of playfulness happen.

Andrew Camp: Gotcha. Oh,

Adrian Miller: I'm sorry. There's one more trend that I think is noteworthy. Um, you're starting to see more chefs tell stories with their, the meals that they serve. So they're doing what I call diasporic, uh, diasporic dinner, um, events. So they may have several courses, like the first course will start in West Africa, second course will be in the Caribbean, next course will be in the American South, and then the final course may be something very personal to that chef.

And so I think that's really exciting because they're trying to reinforce, hey, there's a place where this food comes from, this is how it changes over time, and this is how we're acknowledging and celebrating that.

Andrew Camp: No, I love that. Yeah. Cause food does tell a story. And I think one of the things I, as [00:14:00] I continue in this podcast and the thing that keeps coming up is that the stories are food tells, you know, and they're at times very celebratory, but also I think especially with this idea of soul food and African American cuisine, there's the pain, um, the sorrow, the oppression.

Um, that has resulted because of, of the food, um, in some ways. And, and so telling those stories, it becomes paramount for us to understand the history and realize that food is, is much more than just a plate, a beautiful plate of food.

And so as you've written about soul food and interacted with people and you're leading this Denver, Colorado, Denver council of churches, um, I'm sure you're bumping up against. Some, you know, white people, you're interacting with white people, like what are some common misconceptions that need to be named, um, for what they are, maybe blatantly racist or just, you know, unknowingly racist, like, you know, because they're there.

And again, we have to, you know, again, [00:15:00] telling the true story, um, I think important, you know, for all of us to understand. And so you've, you've alluded to some misconceptions, but what are these misconceptions that we bump up against with soul food?

Adrian Miller: Yeah, I would say no. So the interesting thing is that there are misconceptions within the black community and outside of the black community.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Adrian Miller: So, um, and they kind of cut across. So two big ones are this idea that soul food needs a warning label. That if you eat soul food on a consistent basis, it's gonna kill you.

Now, what I do to parse that is I say, okay, first of all, if you're eating the celebration aspects of soul food, yeah, that's not good.

But if you eat the celebration food of any culture, it's not gonna be good for you. Uh, and what's interesting about the American food story, a lot of the immigrants food That we are presented is typically their celebration food. We don't know that because we don't know that culture So we go [00:16:00] to a Indian restaurant or a Chinese restaurant or whatever.

We're thinking oh, this is the stuff that they eat every day No, usually the restaurateur wants to show off the very best of their culture. So they're giving you the celebrations It's the same thing with soul.

Andrew Camp: Right?

Adrian Miller: So tell people that second listen to what dietitians are telling us to eat More dark leafy greens.

Yep. More sweet potatoes. 'cause it has a, you know, a different impact on your blood sugar than white potatoes.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Adrian Miller: More fish. Um, hibiscus is a super food, okra is a super, all of these things are in the wheelhouse of soul food. So part of it is moderation on the celebration stuff. And then just really lean into the, the roots of this stuff.

'cause it's actually very nutritious and very plant-based. So, um, I, I tell people anytime that they're criticizing the health outcomes of soul food. First of all, have a deeper understanding of soul food and then take a closer look at what people are eating because I would posit that the people that are showing up with diabetes, um, obesity and all this, they're loading up on other stuff,

Andrew Camp: [00:17:00] right?

Adrian Miller: Convenience food, junk food, all this other stuff. So I think soul food gets a bad rap. Second thing.

Andrew Camp: Can I interject real quick just because I heard I came across this quote just based on, you know, what you were just saying about that, that, that, okay. Convenience food, the fast food, um, Ron Finley, who's an African American food activist.

He, he speaks of drive throughs killing more people than drive bys, um, you know, in the role of food deserts in the African American community, um, you know, which, you know, I've talked with a few other guests about, but like, I think that is playing more of an impact than soul food. And you and I talked about that briefly when we were connecting beforehand.

Adrian Miller: Yeah, yeah, so it just really hurts me, because again, this critique is not just outside of the black community, it's deep within the black community. And so I've been trying to change the narrative, but man, it is hard, because it's just ingrained. Another deeply ingrained narrative about soul food is that it's somehow slave food, and it's the food that white people didn't want and threw away.[00:18:00]

Um, now the narrative cuts in two different ways. So one take on that narrative is very empowering, right? And you've probably heard it. Black people took the stuff that everybody didn't want and made it delicious.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Adrian Miller: So that's, it's, it's empowering, right? That's, that's cool. But if you look at the history, a lot of this stuff that's part of soul food, white people were eating as well.

So one of the, and so I bought into the previous narrative of that. We didn't, we worked magic. Um, and there's a, there's a place where that comes from, it's really talking about the hog killing tradition, where the hams and the shoulder and all the stuff went to the smokehouse for the master of the plantation, everybody else got all the other stuff.

But, in that all the other stuff part, what I found out, and this is documented, white people are eating chitlins.

Andrew Camp: Hm.

Adrian Miller: Um, which is like, you know, that's the iconic soul food, slave food dish.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Adrian Miller: And so, when I found out that white people were eating the same stuff, and that that [00:19:00] dish actually goes back to medieval Europe, and that there are high end cookbooks in Europe that have recipes for chitlins, called chitterlings.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Adrian Miller: That changes everything. Um, and so one of the big takeaways and surprising takeaways in my, my journey is that if you actually look at what people are eating, pretty much people of the same socioeconomic class. in a place are eating the same things. Now, because of racism, they're not eating together.

They're not at the same table.

Andrew Camp: No,

Adrian Miller: but they're pretty much eating the same things. And that was a light bulb moment for me because I had bought into this other narrative about our food that soul food was wholly created for black people.

Andrew Camp: Interesting. No, I appreciate that. Um, you know, and then we also associate the soul food with, with the black church and these black church potlucks.

And so what role does food play? In the, in the black church and, you know, what, what is it teaching the [00:20:00] black church, you know, um, and its role within its theology?

Adrian Miller: Yeah, so it's really interesting. So let's just go back to the days of slavery and, um, you know, church was one of the few places where black people could gather and not be so heavily supervised and watched.

Um, so it was a place to really build community. So preachers figured that out, they're like, oh, you know, maybe if I just have really good food after church, I can get people to come to church in the first place. Right. Not uncommon, um, in the 20th and 21st centuries. Um, and one place where this really happened was in the old school revivals.

That would happen in the rural, you know, in rural areas in the South. I tell people today, y'all get antsy when church goes over an hour. Imagine going to something where there were hours and hours of preaching, and you took breaks just to have that good food. So, on the plantation and in urban settings, early Black Christians experienced segregation.

Uh, they were [00:21:00] welcome to come to church, but, hey, nope, you can't pray at the same time as whites. You can't even sit in the same places. Uh, and so the revivals, these open air kind of religious festivals, offered a different view because the social lines were relaxed. So black people were worshiping and freely expressing themselves outdoors with white, right alongside white people.

And so it just, that radical hospitality gave them a different view of what life could be like, because for enslaved people, they were always told, hey, look, you're not going to see the good life until the afterlife.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Adrian Miller: So don't even think about having that here. These revivals, this experience, good food, music, freely expressing my spirituality.

Said, hey, maybe there's a different reality that's possible fast forward. You've got this space on the plantations and then after Afterwards where black people can come together because one thing that people don't appreciate we city folk Especially is the isolation of rural [00:22:00] areas So, you know, you could go days without seeing a lot of people

Andrew Camp: but

Adrian Miller: if you're coming to church every Sunday Hey, there's your community, right?

You're gonna see a lot of people You're going to have that great food and build those bonds. The other important part was the black church in urban settings, especially during what we call the Great Migration, which over several decades, millions of African Americans left the South for other parts of the country.

They often arrived dirt poor. They often were living in places where they didn't even have a kitchen. So they had to rely on outside food, so it was street food, and in a lot of places, the black church actually formed restaurants to meet the nutritional needs of people out there. And then several black leaders, some would argue cult figures, developed huge followings because they fed people for free or at very cheap prices.

People like Father Divine. Um, Bishop Daddy Grace, uh, created a, a network of cafeterias, United House of Prayer for All People, [00:23:00] which makes great food. There's several still operating today. Um, just, just black church mothers just throwing down, man. So if you're ever in a city where you can go to one of those places, you need to go.

It's usually just a lunch only kind of place. So we, we see, we see all of these black churches, uh, meeting the need, especially the hunger needs. of their congregations in these very key moments, because by design, African Americans have been, for most of our history, food insecure in this nation, by design.

And so the black church was a way to kind of mediate that, or mitigate that.

Andrew Camp: I know, right, you know, and like, just our, so much of our society is built on the exploitive, the extractive, um, You know, and, uh, you know, which is, people have paid the price, you know, and African Americans, the indigenous population, um, you know, have paid probably, maybe the biggest price, you know, but, you know, through that, the church has always stepped up to, to [00:24:00] meet the needs of your, of the community of African Americans, um.

Yeah. Go ahead.

Adrian Miller: Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off.

Andrew Camp: Nope. You're good.

Adrian Miller: Oh, so I was just going to say, contemporarily, you still have churches meeting the needs, you know, food banks, stuff like that. A lot of churches do that, um, meet the hunger needs of their community. But now you're starting to see, uh, black pastors start to think about, well, how can we deal with food insecurity?

How, instead of people coming to our church, are there other ways that we can get food to people? Can we turn our church grounds into a garden?

Andrew Camp: Right.

Adrian Miller: And maybe cultivate food and give it to our people? You're seeing more active ministries about health. There is a pastor in Herndon, Mississippi, who actually banned fried chicken from church functions.

How this person is still leading that church and still alive, I don't know, but he pulled it off. But, you know, they're starting to see the health outcomes and they're like, okay, really the care for my flock, I need to start talking about health and healthy food and other things. So you're seeing just another iteration of [00:25:00] meeting the spiritual needs and the, you know, the physical needs of people who are part of that community.

Andrew Camp: No, that's, that's awesome. You know, and so as you then reflect, you know, and as we think about soul food, um, what, what do you see its role in teaching, you know, outside of the black church? You know, what can it do? What can soul food and that's hospitality and this radical That's awesome. Provision, um, help the white church, you know, come to grips with or how, you know.

Adrian Miller: Yeah, so one is, uh, I think through my books and the works of people like Michael Twitty, Jessica B. Harris, Tony Tipton Martin, there's more people writing about this stuff. So, uh, food is a way to learn about other people. I think one of the biggest problems right now is we just really don't know each other.

We have a sense of each other through what we hear in the media. Rumors and all that kind of stuff, but do we really know, you know, each other a lot of my passion right now is like, how is how do we get people to a table [00:26:00] to start to get to know each other, um, and create a welcome space for all different kinds of people that come to the table?

Because, um, I feel like we just need to learn a lot from each other. And it's not just white people learning about African Americans. Um, we've got all these other people in our country. I think there's all, there's stuff that about white people that African Americans need to know. We, we, I know we live in a culture where we're inundated with white culture, but

Andrew Camp: yeah,

Adrian Miller: there's still stuff to know, um, for sure.

And, and we don't, we're not gonna find that out unless we sit at the table. So, um, it's getting to know people. And then I think if people understood the food journey and how slavery actually operated. I think there would be more of a climate of understanding to start having conversations about things like reparations and other things, because I just don't think people truly understand how evil slavery was in terms of its daily operation.

We have a sense that it was a bad thing. We all learned that in school, right? And it's not deeply. [00:27:00] We don't get deeply into it. And I, I was the same way. I walked through life like, okay, slavery was this horrible thing, and I knew the damage it had done in a general sense. But once I started this food journey, and I started reading the oral histories of enslaved people and understanding what their daily lives were like, I was like, man.

Yeah, it's a testament that we're even still here. So, and then, so I think that food is a way to get that understanding because My experience is, um, if you come up to somebody who's not in your culture and you're coming in hot, talking about how their race is, how they don't understand, they just shut down.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Adrian Miller: But if you maybe is like, okay, let's just sit at the table. I want to tell you about my experience, how I look at the world. I want to hear how you look at the world. Maybe we could start to have some progress there.

Andrew Camp: Um,

Adrian Miller: but yeah. And the soul food meal, it may seem innocuous, but it's a very poignant way to understand this history.

Like, and I'll just give you an example [00:28:00] to understand that people were enslaved and brought from a tropical place to a place that was either subtropical, temperate, or very, very cold. Right? And they had to, they were forced to survive in that. So how does the food story change for them? So greens. Africans ate a lot of greens, but they couldn't get the tropical greens, greens here.

And so they adopted the greens of Europe that were, had a bitter taste profile, because it reminded them of home. So they recreated home in this, I don't know, some of the most horrible conditions, um, through greens. And so I think that's a way to start telling the story.

Andrew Camp: How, you know, how have you seen it work?

Like, do you have a story that like, hey, you know, this is possible, it works. Um, to share with our listeners, like, you know, cause it, it sounds nice, but in, you know, you're like, well, it's just not possible. Like, we're so, um, cynical today of any hope of bringing people together, but you and I would believe that the table can do something more [00:29:00] like, yeah.

Adrian Miller: So I have two examples that I, one that's not so hopeful and one that is hopeful. So, uh, in my, yeah, in my tenure with the Colorado Council of Churches, 2015, um, I thought. Let's have a black church, white church, interracial church potluck. And so I started reaching out to a lot of black pastors to just see if they would support that.

And they said, look, Adrian, uh, these white churches, they're very cynical. These white churches, they don't want to do the work of reconciliation. They just want us to come a Martin Luther King Jr. weekend, preach a sermon so they can pat themselves on the back and feel really good and feel really progressive.

They don't want to do this work. And I said, no, no, I think we're in a different moment because Michael Brown had been killed. Trayvon Martin had been killed. Eric Garner. I mean, all of these people have been killed. And so after I started, after I'd already announced this potluck, then the Emanuel, um, Church in Charleston murders happened.

Andrew Camp: Oh, wow.

Adrian Miller: So it just created this moment. [00:30:00] And so we had 200 people show up for this thing. Um, and I got five churches, five church pairs. So a black church and a white church. Um, so, um, about a month later, I just checked in with one of the white pastors who I felt comfortable asking them, and I just asked, how's it going?

And they said, you know, we've done a few things with the black church that we've paired with, but, um, my congregants are starting to ask us, why do we keep doing stuff with that black church? So this just fed into exactly what the black pastors were telling, saying. And so all of those efforts really petered out.

And so I'm trying to figure out how can I do that? Um, how can I revive that spirit again? But, you know, at that moment, there were several white churches that were really interested in the conversation.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

Adrian Miller: Now, fast forward after, um, brother Floyd is murdered. Um, you know, there's a lot of [00:31:00] racial, uh, work done by churches.

So I, I am heartened by one thing. I still find white churches engaged in race long after that happened. I really thought it was going to be a two month phenomenon. People were going to say all these things and then it was over. But there's still churches that are still working on this, and so that's heartening.

Um, okay. Good example is there's a group here in Denver called Set a Longer Table, and um, it may exist in different forms in other places. But the idea is. They recruit hosts and the hosts are in charge of section of tables that are basically six people and they don't know each other. And the idea is that we all get to know each other through conversation.

And then they, they recruit as many hosts as they can. So, uh, last year in civic center in park in Denver, we had almost 400 people. Show up and it was beautiful setting next year. They actually want to have a mile long table [00:32:00] because it was the mile high city.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Right.

Adrian Miller: Yeah. So, um, so, and it was a very racially diverse crowd.

Um, so, you know, there's an opportunity there. It could have been more diverse, but it was least decently diverse. So I think it's something to build on. So I still believe in the promise of the table, but here's the challenge. Challenges as I see them. One is how do you create that safe space so that people of different backgrounds feel welcome.

The second is how do you get that person who does not think about these things or does not want to think about these things to the table? And then the third thing that's becoming increasingly a challenge is how do you get people of color into these spaces? Because so many people of color are like, you know what?

I'm just tired of talking. Um, and it's just feeling that white people really don't want to change, um, and that they have to change themselves. So they have, white people need to do some work, but I can tell you in my experience. [00:33:00] When I'm in groups talking about race that are predominantly white, the white people are like, we want more people of color here.

I don't know if they want absolution or what, but, you know, I was in a space like that one time, because we were doing a book study on Isabel Wilkerson's Caste book, excellent book, and that came up, and I gotta say, to a white person's credit who was in that group, She said, look, we can't rely on black people to solve this problem.

The problem is in our community and we're the ones that have to do the work. We've got this tool here to do the work. So we shouldn't have to rely on black people to do this work for us. And I was like, right on. Now, that person still left, but, you know, the fact that that was voiced by a white person I thought was pretty significant.

So those are the kinds of things that give me hope.

Andrew Camp: For sure, you know, and as you think, you know, because I love that word of, because many times, you know, I think if we are honest, we want to have a diverse table to look good, you know, but to do the hard work, um, [00:34:00] is another step that is daunting, I think, you know, and as you think about, you know, racial, uh, multi ethnic churches, uh, You know, and what does that look like, you know, where you have predominantly Caucasian leadership, um, you know, what's if, if somebody is listening to this, you know, and this is releasing this during black history month, like what, what would you say to, to, I'm going to guess my audience is predominantly white, I'm white, you know, like, let's just, you know, we'll figure, you know, like attracts, like, um, but like, what.

What, what would you say, like, what's, what, where can somebody start, you know, to, to begin to, to do the work and not rely on, on Blacks to do the work for them?

Adrian Miller: Yeah. So, um, I think that we now have, okay, the first thing is we do have a number of really good books now.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Adrian Miller: That are out there to start reading and doing the work and be reflective.

I think that's the [00:35:00] first thing. I think the second thing is. There are now groups of white people who are organizing on racial justice, and I'm blanking on the name. We've got a group here. I think there's several chapters. But I think, um, going to groups with white people who are working on this issue is a great next step.

And then, I think moving to kind of race dialogues would be cool. So, I think those are important steps. I think, and there are more and more groups that are organizing trips to Montgomery, Alabama, to experience the Legacy Museum there, Brian Stevenson and the Equal Justice Initiative. Um, I think that that Legacy Museum is the most cogent storytelling of the Black experience in the United States.

I think it's excellently done. I've been to the museum in Washington, D. C. That's a beautiful museum. It's just so dense. There's just a lot of stuff to take in.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Adrian Miller: But it's also a wonderful experience. And then also in Montgomery, Alabama, you have the justice, piece of justice memorial. People call it the lynching memorial, [00:36:00] but it's hauntingly beautiful and very poignant and it's something else that people need to experience.

So, um, find a group that's going down there. And go experience that stuff and take it in and then I think finally being vulnerable and just saying I want to learn more. I know that I may have a role in this or my ancestors or whatever, or maybe not, but I want to learn more and I want to have a society that's different.

How can I make this happen? And I'll give 1 example of this right after George Floyd got murdered a person I know. Went on Facebook and just said, posted, there's something wrong with this country. I'm a mom with young children. If you're a mom with young children, a white mom with young children. Meet me in this park because, you know, COVID was happening, so they had to meet me in this park and let's just start talking [00:37:00] because something's got to change.

Andrew Camp: And

Adrian Miller: I just said, that's exactly what needs to happen. Because I think when people of color are the ones complete, always calling for meetings and dialogue and stuff, I just feel like it falls on deaf ears. But I really think when somebody within your own community says, Hey, y'all, we got to do something about this.

I just think it resonates a lot.

Andrew Camp: For sure. And I love that of, you know, just reading books, finding people who are interested in it, you know, and, you know, how do we begin a dialogue? I remember before we moved to Flagstaff, we were living in Park City and During COVID after George Floyd, some, um, friends reached out, all white friends, you know, within the church, um, and they're just like, Hey, Andrew, like, can we do something?

And so we started, uh, just reading, you know, and gathering together to talk, like. Um, and learning, you know, um, about this, um, you know, and it was, it was a beautiful time to wrestle through this and figure out, okay, what does [00:38:00] this mean for us in Park City? Um.

Adrian Miller: Do you feel people were transformed by that?

Andrew Camp: It was such a small group and it was people who were already leaning that way.

Um, you know, and so it wasn't, you know, and things happened and we left Park City. Um, you know, but so yeah, it was, it's hard to say, but like, I know that group was meaningful to all of us who were part of it and we still text each other occasionally and still keep in contact. Um,

Adrian Miller: um, and if you want to go deeper, um, there are opportunities there now.

Ways to create your own individual reparations account. So you as an individual, if you've been blessed, you can start contributing money. Um, there was a church here in Denver that created, um, a fund to support black creatives. So what they did is they gave micro grants that allowed black creatives to hire like a virtual assistant for six months or the things just to, just to kind of help.

So there, [00:39:00] there's quite a bit of creativity right now. in terms of how people can help. I think what the challenge is right now, um, for a lot of people is they have read a lot of books, they've been in dialogues, they just don't know what to do next.

Andrew Camp: No, I, I find myself often in that spot, you know, and I live in Flagstaff, Arizona, like the African American population is, is smaller.

It's more of Navajo nation, the indigenous people, um, Latinos, um, You know, and so, okay, what does that mean for, you know, me as a believer of, um, you know, and

Adrian Miller: yeah, and another thing is, um, now I, I know this is very different for me to do it than you, but I think it could be transformative. So, um, after this election, anytime I see a black woman, and it's kind of like a safe space for me to do that.

I just come up to her and I say, look, I don't know what your politics are, but I [00:40:00] just want to affirm you as a black woman. Because this election basically said Black women are not valued as leaders.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Adrian Miller: And you and I both know Black women lead, so I just want to affirm you. And you can receive that however you want.

And, um, I gotta tell you, man, people, women start crying. They just think, they hug me and, you know. So, that's just something, I think more of this kind of affirmation on a personal level. It's something that can be just quite powerful.

Andrew Camp: No, I love that. Yeah, cause I was, right around election time I was listening to bell hooks, uh, cause I drive a lot.

I was listening to bell hooks, Ain't I a Woman. Um, and if you want to talk about a history that a lot, or a book that allows you a peek into the brutal history of, for African American women, like that book was a sobering listen, but like listening to that book and then seeing the outcomes of this election, I'm like, Does an African American woman stand a chance [00:41:00] to ever be president?

Adrian Miller: Yeah, we have to ask that question, because we know now that Democrats went into the voting booth, voted for other Democrats and progressive causes, but did not vote for the vice president, Vice President Harris. And I just think that's messed up.

Andrew Camp: Right. No. And yeah, I think just wrestling with this, you know, and recognizing, have we made progress?

Sure. But there is still so much, the roots of sin and the roots of racism are just so deeply embedded in this country that. Who knows how long it will take.

Adrian Miller: Yeah, and I think that this election actually was more about patriarchy racism was definitely part of it

Andrew Camp: Yeah,

Adrian Miller: but my own feeling is if it were a man of color and I think it would have been closer Maybe the man would have won

Andrew Camp: right?

Adrian Miller: So I think patriarchy sexism has a lot Yeah, to do with this one.

Andrew Camp: That's true. Yeah, because we, you know, we have Barack, [00:42:00] you know,

Adrian Miller: right? And then we have in in Arizona, right? Senator Gallegos.

Andrew Camp: Yeah

Adrian Miller: one. Mm hmm So

Andrew Camp: so yeah, the roots of patriarchy, you know racism. Yeah, like it's the intertwining of all of it.

Just it's an it's an entangled mess That we still find ourselves in, uh, but you lead a council of churches. So what still gives you, you hope, you know, for a better world? Like how, how do you, how do you not despair Adrian in the midst of, of this?

Adrian Miller: Well, you know, I, I do despair quite a bit, but I, I, I temper it with, with hope.

So I think, um, I see a lot of interesting iterations of church right now, and that gives me hope. Now, Colorado was one of the least religious. Places in the country, um, and you know, churches have to create, uh, have to compete with God's creation every weekend. So people are like, I'd rather be in the mountains than in some building, but um, [00:43:00] there's a lot of interesting iterations of church.

There are still loving people doing amazing things here. So I, I still believe in the transformational power of church. I think I'm struggling, uh, myself with just what does this current tumult mean?

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Adrian Miller: Um, as we're seeing more and more people walk away from church, um, I, I, you know, I listened to these podcasts and books about people talking about all the reasons why they've left church.

And I, I grieve for these people because church has been a very loving and positive force in my life, the black church. Um, and so being connected to a spiritual community is just something I would want for anybody. I think it's very grounding and reaffirming and places where you know When I didn't find love in certain places in mainstream society as a black man, I could always find love In my black church.

Um, but, uh, you know, I, I think I'm grappling with what [00:44:00] does, what is church going to be in 25 years? Maybe it's not about coming to this building on a set time every week and being around these people I love. Um, so I, I have to wrap myself because my, my church is dying. My church is like a lot of churches.

I'm 55 years old and people call me young man at my church and they should because they're in their eighties and nineties.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Adrian Miller: So, um, yeah. You know, I feel like I'm connected to this thing that's waning, but Um, instead of waning, I'm thinking, well, maybe it's just more about transformation. And I just have to see what, what is church going to become.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, I'm curious too, as you're talking to, you know, the despair, but because we also have a tradition of lament. Um, you know, and so what. What role do you see lament playing?

Adrian Miller: Yeah, I just um, you know, I've preached about this and let me just say it's not always welcomed. No, no, right Yeah, but you know, I think we as Christians we gotta own up to the fact that we've [00:45:00] damaged a lot of people

Andrew Camp: Hmm,

Adrian Miller: and there's a lot of damaged people walking around now.

The thing that's cool is because of our Faith tradition and the teachings of Christ. We could be the repairers of the breach

Andrew Camp: right

Adrian Miller: now So part of that is acknowledging how we've damaged people and saying hey we messed up But we want to welcome you and build community. Tell us how to be better.

Andrew Camp: Yeah

Adrian Miller: So that's one big thing that I lament And I think and I understand why it was like this but just the hierarchical nature of church, I think It's just not something people are feeling today.

So I lament that the church has not been able to change with the times, um, as much now. The part of Christianity that I deal with at the Council of Churches is the, is the mainline denominations.

Andrew Camp: Okay. I

Adrian Miller: would say just being just objective, I think the evangelical Christian community has been more nimble, especially embracing technology and other things.

But I, I lament the slow moving ness. [00:46:00] Of the church to meet the needs of the day. Um, in a lot of cases, but I tell people this all the time in the case of an emergency or a crisis, my church people are there.

Andrew Camp: Yeah,

Adrian Miller: and they come out strong

Andrew Camp: for sure.

Adrian Miller: I guess my challenge is I've been trying to get people like, Hey, let's just meet regularly and work on stuff regularly.

So we're really ready for these things. And maybe we can even prevent some things from happening because we're in relationship and we've built community and we've addressed these needs in our community.

Andrew Camp: No, I love that. Um, you know, and as we wrap, begin to wrap up, it's a question I ask all of my, my guests.

And so, um, you've alluded to it, uh, but would love to hear your thoughts on it. So what's the story you want the church to tell?

Adrian Miller: Yeah, I want the, the church to tell the story of the good news that was brought out by so many people. So I want to really play up the diversity of the early church, uh, the role of women.

Um, and the fact that the early [00:47:00] church was people just kind of getting together for potlucks and getting to know each other and doing some good things, you know? Um, so if we could tell the story of the early church, I think that that might have lessons for today. Um, but so many people, uh, came together to spread the gospel.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Adrian Miller: Uh, and to build the early church. And it's remarkable that so many cultures have been impacted by that. Um, and so I would love to, to talk about the early church and, and bringing it together and what that meant and how it was a grassroots kind of thing, but an empowering way to build community.

Andrew Camp: No, for sure.

Yeah. I love that. Getting back to the early church, cause they did it around the tables and food and, you know, breaking down hierarchical patriarchy. Um, class, you know, and so how do we re rediscover, um, that grassroots inclusive nature of the early church? Mm hmm. Uh, I love it. Um, and so before we end, just a few fun [00:48:00] questions, um, you know, just to bring it back to food that I love to ask too, uh, Adrian, what's one food you refuse to eat?

Adrian Miller: Man, you know, I just, I'm just not there with insects yet.

Andrew Camp: Okay,

Adrian Miller: and I know a lot of the world eats them and it's a great source of protein and we're missing out but man, I just

Andrew Camp: Yeah,

Adrian Miller: not there yet.

Andrew Camp: I hear you. Um, and then on the other end of the spectrum What's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Adrian Miller: Ah, I gotta tell you, uh, It's my mother's lemon icebox pie.

I don't know if you've ever had lemon icebox pie.

Andrew Camp: No

Adrian Miller: Uh, have you ever had key lime pie?

Andrew Camp: Yes. Okay. So imagine

Adrian Miller: Yeah, so imagine a key lime pie that has a lemon Custard, but Graham crushed vanilla wafers.

Andrew Camp: Okay,

Adrian Miller: together with butter at the crust.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Adrian Miller: Yeah, man, that was the dessert we fought over, uh, as, as young kids, uh, for the holidays.

How fun. And so, [00:49:00] I just love that. But my restaurant experience that's just been recently memorable is Zahav in Philadelphia. It's a Israeli Middle Eastern place. Okay. And I, I did the chef's table one time. Man, talk about an experience. Still remember that meal to this day.

Andrew Camp: Sounds like you want to do some call outs right there.

Come call in response from that meal still. Oh yeah. Um, and then finally there's a conversation among chefs about last meals as in. If you knew you only had one last meal to enjoy, what would be on your table? And so, if Adrian had one last meal, what would be on Adrian's table?

Adrian Miller: So, it'd be my version of surf and turf.

So, I would have some pork spare ribs. Um, bone it, you know, with the rib tip attached. So, black pork spare ribs. Uh, and then I would have a whole fried, uh, snapper, bone in, uh, and then [00:50:00] I would have some mustard and turnip greens, and some coleslaw, and then a big ol glass of, uh, hibiscus drink.

Andrew Camp: So,

Adrian Miller: that would be my red drink.

Andrew Camp: Yep.

Adrian Miller: And then, a slice of lemon icebox pie.

Andrew Camp: I was going to say, I was like, there's got to be some lemon icebox pie coming at the end of that.

Adrian Miller: Yes. That would be a great last meal. All of those things. I just love all of those things. But, the main stars is I, barbecue pork spare ribs is like my favorite thing and then I'm a big soul, seafood fan and I love whole bone in fish.

Andrew Camp: Nice. I love it. Yeah, when we were in Park City, too, there was a Jamaican restaurant run by some friends from our church and they did a whole snapper, um, you know, and you talk, yeah, there's Jamaican food, um, there's, there's some, there's some goodness in Jamaican food from that snapper to some curries to jerk chicken.

Yeah,

Adrian Miller: and then oxtails, Jamaicans, the way they do oxtails,

Andrew Camp: yeah,

Adrian Miller: transcendent.

Andrew Camp: Mm hmm. Yep. [00:51:00] No, I agree. Totally agree. Yes. Oxtail. I think before we left from Park City, you know, we had like a staff meeting at the church I worked at and, uh, this Jamaican restaurant, 11Hauz, they catered it and they brought some oxtails and it just.

There's nothing like eating it, you know, cause you got to get dirty with the oxtails. There's no clean, nice way to eat those oxtails.

Adrian Miller: Nope. Do you know if they're, if they're still open?

Andrew Camp: Yep. They're still open. Um, 11Hauz in Park City um,

Adrian Miller: Okay. I'm going to look it up. I've never been to park city, but you know, one of these days I might make it through.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, it's another great ski resort town. Uh, they got some great food. Uh, if you ever do, you know, let me know and I'll give you some more recommendations, but yeah, 11Hauz. dear friends. Um,

Adrian Miller: all right. Awesome.

Andrew Camp: Well, Adrian, it's been great to have this conversation. If, if people want to learn more about your work and, um, connect with you, where can they find you?

Adrian Miller: So they can find me if they do soul food scholar, if they [00:52:00] just remember that and put that in their internet search, they'll find me. So that's my website. Soul food scholar. com. And then on social media platforms, I'm at soul food scholar. Yep. So, those are the easiest ways to find me.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. Soul Food Scholar.

Yep. We'll make sure that's in the show notes. And so, thank you for joining me.

Adrian Miller: Uh. Oh, thank you for having me. It's been fun talking to you.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or sharing it with others. Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food.

Until next time. Bye.