The Biggest Table

Episode 47 (Jeremy Everett)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I'm your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast we explore the table food, eating and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another. And

today I'm joined by Jeremy Everett.

Dr. Jeremy Everett is the founder and executive director of the Baylor Collaborative on Hunger and Poverty. With nearly a hundred staff, interns and researchers, the Baylor collaborative team has assisted, community-based, state-based and national efforts to increase hundreds of millions of additional meals through innovative research-based interventions. In Dr. Everett's tenure with the collaborative, he has raised more than $300 million to support faculty research, public service, and policy analysis.

Dr. Everett earned a bachelor's degree from Sanford University. A Master of Divinity from Truitt Seminary at Baylor University and his doctor of ministry from Duke Divinity School at Duke University and was appointed by US Congress in 2014 to serve on the National Commission on Hunger. [00:01:00] He is the author of I Was Hungry, cultivating Common Ground to End an American Crisis, and is a contributing author to several other books, including the recently published book, what Justice looks like.

Jeremy is married to Amy and they have three sons, Lucas, Sam, and Wyatt. So thanks for joining me today, Jeremy. Really feel privileged and honored to have this conversation.

Jeremy Everett: Yeah, Andrew, thank you for the invitation. Looking forward to, uh, spending some time with you this afternoon.

Andrew Camp: So I wanna start here because in your book, um, you mentioned just this call to, you know, devote your life to ending hunger.

And so what was that call look like? What led you to this vocation?

Jeremy Everett: Yeah, I mean, uh. Yeah, it seems like, uh, uh, you, uh, we, we've got, uh, now our older boys are, are in college and our, our youngest son is, is finishing up elementary school. But I still think in moons, you know, like when, when they were kids, it's like, you know, how many moons ago was that [00:02:00] dad?

You know? And, uh, and, and when you ask that question, I'm like, man, it feels like many moons ago. Uh, when, but, uh, I, you know, all of us, I think every human being on the planet knows what it's like to feel like an outsider at some point. Mm-hmm. And, um, and so for me growing up as a kid, we moved around a lot.

My, my father was a minister. Most of my family members are ministers. And we joked that my dad only had three years worth of sermons. And so we would, we would pick up and move a good bit. And, and so anytime you're a new kid, you know what life looks like on the outside and, uh, and, and you're just desperate, uh, to be, to find those, those friends that, that will let you in.

Mm-hmm. Uh, and, uh, and, and you know, a point of uniqueness for me was that I, I played basketball, uh, through high school and, and, uh, and so many of my friends came from high poverty, uh, urban communities and, [00:03:00] uh, and that I played basketball with. But then the churches that my father pastored, uh, oftentimes were the first Baptist Church of America, kind of a church.

And so I might have friends who, you know, whose families lived in country clubs. And, and so it wouldn't be uncommon for me to maybe go play basketball in the projects and in the same day go to a friend's house in the country club. And, and, uh, and, and I, you know, as a child, I didn't really that think anything about it, that that was just life.

And, uh, but when I got to college, the reality of the inequities that I experienced as a kid. Began to emerge, and I began to see people who are on, who are economic outsiders, uh, uh, for a variety of reasons. I didn't know really what to do about that. I asked a lot of ministers about like, what, what, what does that mean?

And most of them said, you should feel grateful for, uh, the resources that you grew up with, that you didn't have a hard time putting food on the table and so forth. And I knew that that was probably truth for most [00:04:00] people, but it wasn't truth for me at that time. And, uh, uh, later in college, I came across the story of St.

Francis of Assisi, and it was a game changer for me. I was a Baptist kid at a Baptist school and turned on the TV and watched a, a movie called Brother Son, sister Moon about Francesco. And I didn't even know that Francesco was St. Francis until, uh, a few months after that. But, but it just told this story of, of a young man who realized that, um, uh.

That he needed to give away all of his possessions because his possessions were prohibiting him from loving his neighbor as himself. And it's not just possessions, it's the quest. It's, it's what it, it's what it represents, uh, in terms of status and, and, uh, and, and creating insiders and outsiders and so forth.

And when I came across that story, it resonated to me. And so I got all my stuff in my little car, loaded it all up, and I drove over the mountain in Birmingham to downtown [00:05:00] Birmingham where a lot of the civil rights activity happened at Kelly Ingram Park. And that's where a lot of the homeless hung out when I was in college.

And so I gave away all my possessions. And at that point I knew, uh, I was called to, uh, people in poverty. I didn't know what that meant, right? I'd never heard of social work. I didn't know, I didn't know what to do. All I knew was for me is I needed to move into low income communities so I could see what poverty looked like from inside out.

Andrew Camp: Wow. Um, that's so cool. And so how have you maintained that call through, you know, many moons, um, we won't ask how many moons, but like, you know, like to, to, it's one thing to have that experience in college. We've all have some, you know, radical stories of calling, it feels like in college if, you know, we follow Jesus, but like, how to maintain that?

Like how, how has your soul remained engaged and not grown, maybe bitter or resentful?

Jeremy Everett: That's a, that's a great question. Um, [00:06:00] well first, uh, you know, Brian Stevenson, the author of Just Mercy and Civil Rights Attorney, we paraphrase him all the time and he says, you can't solve a social problem from a distance.

You have to have proximity to the problem. Yeah. And so for, for about two decades, uh, we lived in low income communities. First, you know, as a single adult, you know, as a seminary student living with other seminary students and in a high poverty, uh, neighborhood. And then getting married and then raising our family.

Uh, um, we, we lived in, in high poverty neighborhoods for, for, you know, most of my adult life. Not now, now we found a house in the woods that we live in. But, uh, um, but it, uh, that helps, you know, I mean, you're, you're, you're surrounded by, uh, beautiful people. Uh, getting to know people from very different walks of life than, than I had known before.

Uh, the experiences that we had in some of these communities rooted, um, my [00:07:00] faith experience and, and the realities of hunger and poverty on a daily, on kind of a day-to-day life. Um, and then I think staying connected to a faith community, um, has helped. Um, I think there, there are a number of influencing factors, having mentors and people that, right, that you invest in and that invest in you.

Um, but I think, uh, a number of those things, but probably most important. Was proximity and, and still trying to figure out ways to maintain proximity. Even if we don't live in, in communities. It reminds you of like, okay, so why, why am I doing this? You know? Yeah. This is, uh, uh, and I had an opportunity to meet Gustavo Gutierrez, uh, father Gutierrez, uh, kind of the godfather of liberation theology.

Yeah. I had graduated from seminary. My wife and I were living on a small communal organic farm in north Waco called World Hunger Relief, uh, uh, institute. And, uh, uh, we, uh, [00:08:00] this Father Gutierrez was leaving Peru, where he'd been a priest for most of his life, and going to Notre Dame to be a professor for the final stage of his life.

And, and he came and gave a lecture series at Baylor, and a Baylor professor invited me over to his home to celebrate his birthday. And if you know anything about, you know, Gustavo Gutierrez, you know, he's a giant. He's one of these people that's like a giant human being. Like you just expect him to be a larger than life character.

Andrew Camp: Right. But

Jeremy Everett: it turns out he is like a three and a half foot Peruvian Yoda, like individual. And, uh, uh, I, I felt like he was like 350 years old when I met him. I'm six four, I think. I mean, he's probably was not five foot. Wow. And, uh, and I just remember having an opportunity while we were gathered at my professor's house to be able to ask him a question that had been burning in my mind.

I said, how do you have solidarity with the poor? And he said, you commit your life to their cause. Hmm. And that stuck with me and it's like, okay, this is not a, this is not a short term [00:09:00] thing and I, I, I may have different jobs over the course of my life, different articulations of what commitment to the poor looks like, but this is a lifetime cause and a lifetime call.

So that, that was, uh, that was one of those very clarifying moments about what I was getting myself into and grateful for that.

Andrew Camp: No, how cool to have that moment with such a, a profound thinker, you know, who's shaped, you know, shaped so many, um, people. Um, yeah.

Jeremy Everett: He he is, he is. He is some, he is amazing dude. Uh, I even felt like he, you know, like talked like Yoda, you know, like, you know,

Andrew Camp: I'm sure

Jeremy Everett: nouns and, uh, yeah.

You know, uh, uh, yeah. What, what are a, what an amazing character just passed away this past year. That's right. And uh, uh, but a giant of a human being, I'm sure.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And we've lost some great thinkers this past year from Gustavo to Walter Brug, you know, people who have shaped Yeah. Christian thought. [00:10:00] Um, you know, and to read their works and to be, you know, be like, okay, what, how do we carry on their legacy and their thought, um, you know, in these times is, is important.

Jeremy Everett: That's right. That's right. Bill Mos, you know, died, uh, last week too, or two weeks ago. Yep. So, yep. That's. That's wild. Uh, I hadn't, I hadn't thought about it all happening this year.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Um, but you mentioned a word like solidarity, and it's a word, like, as I've done this podcast, it's a word more than a few guests keep mentioning.

Um, you know, and, and especially as we think about the poor, dis disenfranchised, the, uh, you know, oppressed. Why, why is solidarity such an important word as we think then about hunger specifically versus, you know, just a handout, you know, and, um, what, what does solidarity mean to you and, and why might it be an important concept as we engage with hunger?

Jeremy Everett: [00:11:00] Yeah. You know, in all these years, I don't think I've ever had anybody ask me that question. And, uh, that's a, that's a very thoughtful question. I'm, I appreciate you asking that. Um, you know, uh, here are a couple thoughts. One. Solidarity, I think is a commitment to justice. Hmm. It's a commitment to making crooked paths straight.

Hmm. And so, uh, right now our farmers and ranchers in our nation and around the world produce enough food to ensure that nobody should go hungry. Wow. Yet we have 750 million people on the planet that are on the brink of starvation. Hmm. We have consistently have 35 to 40 million Americans that are considered food insecure.

Uh, and to me, when we have enough food, when we're producing enough food, one thing if there's a famine, right. You know, yeah. This [00:12:00] isn't, but this isn't famine related. This is, that means that, that we don't, well, well, let me put it like this. If you have the resources, uh, you can probably get any type of food you want.

Anywhere in the world you are at almost any time of the day that you want. Mm-hmm. But if you don't have the resources or you live in a community that doesn't have the resources, or a country that doesn't have the resources, your ability to get your basic needs, Matt, or access to affordable healthy food is severely limited.

And so since, you know, for, for people who come from a faith perspective, from a Christian faith perspective specifically, you know, we think about us all being created in the image of God. And if we really believe that, and one of the first things that God says to Adam and Eve is [00:13:00] gives them food to eat.

You know, that, uh, uh, that eating is central to our human experience, specifically eating with other people. Mm-hmm. Right. Central to our, uh, to our human experience. We don't ensure that everybody has access to that resource that they need to live as God intended for them to live, then that means that we must not really value people as, as being as fully human as we value ourselves or our family members.

And, and so, uh, while hunger is a political problem, uh, it's also rooted in a spiritual issue. And so solidarity to me is saying we are gonna commit to justice. Yeah. And we are gonna work to ensure that we are building infrastructure so that everybody has a [00:14:00] pathway to get to that table. Mm-hmm. To eat together as God intended for us to be able to enjoy the bounty of all that's being grown and produced.

And, and so. Uh, so that probably, you know, is that, I'll have to think about it more. Honestly. It's a great question. But, but to me that's probably what solidarity looks like. Hmm. Is that it's that commitment to justice. Charity's great. Right? Yeah. Doing something, providing food to somebody today when you see, uh, you know, pacify a homeless person on the street.

That's great. That is a good thing. Yeah. Um, but, uh, but I feel like solidarity is probably more in line with a commitment to, to justice and working towards that end.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm. To justice, to flourishing, to seeing that, you know, God's shalom. Yeah. You know, is, is on earth as it is in heaven. Yep.

Jeremy Everett: A hundred percent.

Andrew Camp: Um, and you made a comment that I'd love for you to unpack a little. You said that [00:15:00] hunger is a political and spiritual issue. Uh, be curious, you know, how you see both working hand in hand, you know, um, just because I think for listeners, I. You know, people think of it, you know, okay, well the government needs to do more, or just the church needs to do more.

But how do you see both government and religious organization, churches, faith communities, you know, working to address, uh, hunger?

Jeremy Everett: Yeah. Well, uh, I got a lot of thoughts here, but, uh, first and foremost, uh, um, hunger and poverty are not, uh, are, are too big and too complex for any one sector to end by themselves.

Yep. So, and what that means is that it inherently requires government to play a role, congregations to play a role, nonprofits to play a role, industry partners, even academia, you know, should play a [00:16:00] role. So it's like, it literally requires all of us working in concert with each other to be able to bend that crooked path and make it.

Now I think that is also unique that, uh, not, maybe not unique, but, uh, um, um, but poignant that at a time of, uh, fragmentation as a, as a nation, as a planet, um, that our only pathway forward for food security or to end hunger is for us to work together. And, uh, um, but it's available to us. That's what's, that's what's so amazing.

It's like, you know, we have a vision that's a world without hunger. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: And

Jeremy Everett: uh, it's like, well, people ask me all the time, do you really think you can end hunger? It's like, well, we produce enough food since we produce enough food. Yeah. We can very much in hunger. And it really is as simple as us working together and prioritizing it.

Mm-hmm. And, uh, developing strategies and building the [00:17:00] infrastructure to be able to make it. So, so ending hunger is very doable. Um, it's, it just is a matter. It's a will, it's a issue of will. Mm-hmm. It's an issue of making it a value. Uh, that, that, uh, and, and a leave behind that we were like, Hey, we wanna leave the planet better when we found it.

And this is part of it, right? People having access to the food that they need to live has God intended, but it does require everybody to work together. So the government, government has to play, plays a very important role. Um, there, there are really kind of three things right now that I would say are kind of the three big buckets of how you end hunger.

Um, like in America, for example, one would be, uh, uh, the role of farms, you know, farmers and agribusiness. So that has to be strong and healthy. Yeah. So if we're doing things that aren't that, that are gonna, uh. Uh, reduce our ability to produce food down the road because of how we [00:18:00] plant, or how we, you know, what we put on our, our fields and whatnot.

Well, that's not gonna be a good, that's not a good long-term solution, right. So, but Farm and Agribusiness has to be strong. Our government, federal nutrition programs like Snap. Yeah, we've seen, talked about a whole lot right now with the big, beautiful bills that, uh, have to be strong. Those are of critical importance and have the biggest impact on food security in America.

And then the charitable food distribution has to be strong. So Feeding America, the network of food banks, um, all of our congregations that have food pantries, but most people don't know is that most of that food is also federally funded food through the emergency food care program called, or tfa, uh, one of USDA's Federal Nutrition programs.

And so, uh, or Meals on Wheels, you think about, that's a great program. Right. Also federally funded. Programs, right? But, uh, uh, but we think about that as the charitable food system. So all three of those have to be rocking and rolling. [00:19:00] And then we've developed a fourth called Hunger Free Communities, and that's our vehicle to get all the different sectors working in concert with each other, to transform access on a local community or on a state level.

Uh, that, that, so if all four of those things are happening, then uh, then, then we are well on a path forward to food.

Andrew Camp: That's sounds easy. You know, and you make it sound like, okay, this, you know, which is, I, I, you know, I love that you said that hunger is an issue we can solve because we have enough food to feed everybody.

It's now a willingness to make sure that that food gets to where it needs to get into those communities. Um, whether it's food deserts, whether it's the indigenous population. Um, you know, and yet it's multiple organizations working together and, you know, and you, you talk about collective impact, you know, and so like, how do multiple organizations then work together [00:20:00] to do this?

And what does that mean? Because I think it's, it's one thing to say, oh, we just gotta get people in the same room to end hunger. But I think the way you describe it, it's something more than just that. Yeah. And I think that's where maybe you, your work at Baylor is coming into play here. Um,

Jeremy Everett: that's right.

So there's, uh, you know, organizing is an art and a science, right? Right. And, uh, and so the science behind it is utilizing what we, we call a shared power theory of change. And basically what that means, uh, is that everybody should have a seat at the table and be involved in, in being a part of the solution.

And so, and that should be, you know, all those different sectors that I mentioned should be at the table. Uh, families who live in poverty should be at the table. You, uh, if you don't, if you don't listen to people who are directly impacted by food insecurity, you're gonna build a boat that won't float.

Right. And, uh, but they oftentimes, uh, don't just need to be [00:21:00] representing the fact that they're in poverty. They, they're probably leading organizations in impoverished communities. They could be a pastor mm-hmm. In a low income community, and maybe they're bi-vocational or whatever, but so, uh, so anyway, so you've got, uh, so shared power theory of change.

This means, uh, everybody needs to have a seat at the table. And we're going to listen to, uh, people who are, who are directly impacted, um, uh, by, uh, by the issue and prioritize what they have to say. You have to assume that what they're expressing is, is truth, right? Yeah. Like the impact is a strategy by which to put all this together.

And it's, it's the process. Where we guide communities through this Hunger-Free community model from, uh, developing a shared vision, uh, towards building a multi-sectoral approach, getting all these groups working together, developing strategic plans, and, uh, doing [00:22:00] assessments so that you can find out who's doing what and where they're doing it in your community.

And so that you're making data-driven decisions, not just decisions based upon anecdotal experience. So it's, uh, the best way to do that is go to our website, hunger poverty.org. Mm-hmm. And we are launching a, a whole new program to be able to train and equip communities, uh, that goes live in August. And, uh, and so you can get a certificate from Baylor in our hunger free community approach, uh, and that, that that goes live, uh, this August, uh, we are committed to ensuring that every.

County in Texas. So all 254 counties in Texas have an opportunity to go through this curriculum. And so we are physically going to all 254 counties in Texas over the, uh, between now and 2030. But we also train and equip communities. We have had active projects or research in every county in the us So, uh, [00:23:00] lots of work there in Arizona, um, over the years.

Uh, and so, uh, so, so this model is in partnership with the Alliance and Hunger based outta dc and so we'll be made available to communities across the country. So we're excited so that, that kind of walks, that gives communities who have the desire to end hunger. Mm-hmm. Uh, who have intuited that they can do more together than they can apart, right.

The, the, the strategies and the process by which to go implement this work because, you know, hunger and poverty weren't created overnight. You're not gonna end it. You know, in a year or in a grant cycle, this is something that, you know, you need to think, think in decades, right? Like, okay, what can we achieve, uh, over the next decade to be able to address this in a comprehensive way?

So

Andrew Camp: that's awesome. Um, yeah. Yeah. Um, so cool that, yeah, that there is training available, that this isn't just, hey, go [00:24:00] figure this out, but that you guys are actively seeking, you know, to, to make sure that, you know, resources are available for communities that wanna do this. And how to, you know, 'cause it's one thing to say it, it's another thing to enter into it and be like, where do I start?

And you guys are giving that opportunity for communities. Um, which, which is awesome.

Jeremy Everett: Well, thanks. It, it large in part, thank the communities that were a part of these initial pilots 15 years ago in Texas. 'cause. I really was going into communities and saying, all right, work together and figure it out. Yeah.

And they were like, uh, we're happy to do that, but we don't know how to figure it out. And so it, it kind of forced our hand to be like, okay, this, we have to move beyond just the art of organizing and develop a social science behind it. And, uh, because you can't scale art, but you can scale social science, uh mm-hmm.

And, and so, and our mission is to cultivate scalable solutions in hunger. So we had to figure out how to do it. And, [00:25:00] and our team is, I'm surrounded by, uh, brilliant people, uh, who've, who've figured this out and committed people and people who are living in communities, working on a day-to-day basis trying to figure out how to, how to get all these sectors working in concert with each other.

And so it was their, their brilliance, uh, that, that helped create this, uh, uh, this new platform. So excited to see it launched.

Andrew Camp: For sure. Um, and as you know, these programs are launched, you know, that's one step. But there the other step is this internal work where we've scapegoated, you know, poverty and hunger, you know, and your body reaction to, you know, as soon as I said that, like I, you know, you had a reaction, you know, but I, how do we, you know, we can't change people's hearts, but how do we work to minimize maybe the scapegoating?

Like, what, what can, you know, we as Jesus followers do, are people interested [00:26:00] in ending hunger? Do to help people understand and not, and stop the scapegoating? Because I think that's a huge issue. And I think if we're honest with ourselves, how many times I know I've driven past somebody standing at a corner and, you know, had a negative reaction.

Um.

Jeremy Everett: Yeah, this

Andrew Camp: is one of the, the struggles and you know, and I'm sure you've heard it and faced it and been told it too many times to count. And so,

Jeremy Everett: yeah. Yeah. I mean, and, and done it.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Everett: I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, uh, I think that's what's, what I get so frustrated with a lot of times is, is that, you know, I've been working in this space for so long, and yet oftentimes I display, uh, the same behaviors or thought processes that everybody else does.

And, uh, uh, so, so with that, you know, you kinda have to take a, a, a grant, take everything I say with a grain of salt grain because grain, I'm not, it's not like it's all figured out, and, and [00:27:00] I'm still kind of navigating my way through the darkness myself. But, uh, here's what I'll say about scapegoat. Uh, first and foremost, you know, the fir the, one of the earliest records that we have with scapegoating is when Pharaoh scapegoats.

The slaves, the Hebrew people, the people who become the Hebrew people, uh, in the Old Testament or Hebrew scriptures, when he says they're lazy and they need to go harvest their own straw to make our mud bricks, uh, you know, to build the buildings that, that he wanted built. Um, we've been scapegoat the poor for thousands and thousands of years.

Uh, that's, and we do that because if we scapegoat the poor, so like right now, a lot of the language that we're hearing from our members of Congress is we want people who deserve access to Medicaid, who deserve access to Snap to have it. We wanna protect it for them. We just don't want to give it to people that don't deserve it or people that are trying to [00:28:00] abuse the system.

And so, uh, we say those things because it abdicates our responsibility to love our neighbor as ourselves. Hmm. So if, if we believe our neighbor is lazy or not doing their part, um, if we believe that, that their poverty is their fault, then we don't have to do anything about it. And then we can use our resources.

We can create bill, you know, legislation that, that benefits people that look like us and have similar interests in us, or that provides us, uh, the, uh, uh, the next step in our careers and, and, and our quest towards, you know, more power and privilege and so forth. It just we're, we're abdicating responsibility.

And, uh, whereas if we say, Ooh, there, there's no such thing [00:29:00] as deserving and undeserving, right? There's just people in poverty. Mm-hmm. So Matthew 25, which is the Iowas hungry book, was named after the Matthew 25 passage. Only as geological scene in the entire gospel of Matthew. Hmm. Uh, or end of the world scene.

Yeah. Jesus returns his king and he separates everybody, the sheep from the goats, the righteous from the accused. And the criterion for judgment wasn't confession of faith in Christ, which is, is astonishing.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Everett: It was whether or not you acted with love and cared for the needy. Yeah. Like those acts weren't just, those weren't extra credit.

So that, you know, so that's the only eschatological saying in the entire gospel in Matthew and the criterion for judgment was. Jesus saying, I was hungry and you gave me food.

Yeah. I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger or a migrant and you welcomed me in prison and sick, and you visited me and took care of me. Right. But what's interesting about that passage, a lot of us quickly [00:30:00] jumped to Jesus saying, you know, just as you did it to the least of these.

And so we all kind of gravitate to the least of these, but it continues to go. And he says, who are members of my family? Hmm. Yeah. So I remember Father Gutierrez and all that he taught us in his, in his time. Jesus equates people who were in poverty, who are disenfranchised, who Howard Thurman says, whose backs are against the wall as members of his family.

The rest of us are judged based upon whether or not we further their cause. So certainly that doesn't, that doesn't mean that, you know, we're not saved through faith. You know, that, that there is, but you know, the kingdom has kind of three realities that, that are continually pointed out. The kingdom within the kingdom here on earth and the kingdom of heaven kind of by, in the, in the buy and by.

Right? Yeah. And so, uh, but in this passage, it's speaking about this kingdom on earth, and we are accountable [00:31:00] to our brothers and sisters. So when we choose, so in this, in that passage, you can't scapegoat, right? No. There's nobody to scapegoat. No. And, uh, it's just poor. It's just people who are hungry.

Doesn't matter why they're hungry. Just if they're hungry. Yeah. And, and, and what, what do we do or do not do to further their cause? So scapegoating has allowed us to, instead of declaring war on poverty, it's allowed us to declare war on the war. Yeah. Or right now, war on the migrant. Mm-hmm. And, and all I could say is that is antithetical to, uh, uh, the gospel, right?

And, uh, um, what, you know. And so, uh, you know, that that's so what we're seeing right now in, in the public, in the public life, what, what's, uh, uh, is, is certainly not in line with what we're seeing in the gospel. I also [00:32:00] don't think it's in line with where, what America's at its best. And I'm happy to talk about that too, but, right.

But that to me is so scapegoating is, is, uh, but it's been, it's been something we, we all, we all do because we don't wanna be responsible for our brother and sister and me.

Andrew Camp: No. You know, and that's our, the church my family attends here in Flagstaff has been preaching through James. Um, and James has quite a lot to say about, you know, making sure we care for, for the hungry.

The widows, the orphans, you know, it's James 1 27. Like, you know, this is the pure religion that God finds acceptable, is caring for the orphan and, and widows in their distress. And I think a lot of times those populations that, you know, might have to do with food insecurity, um, you know, and the access to that.

And you think about Acts six and, you know, widows not getting fed, you know, the, um, the non, uh, the Hellenistic Jews not getting fed the [00:33:00] widows. Um, yep. You know, and, and so yeah, like it's this food taking care and feeding and loving the poor seems to be central to what Jesus calls his followers to. And yet it's so easy to, to blame them, um, or to dehumanize them, um, versus that soar moving towards solidarity.

Jeremy Everett: Yep, that's right. Well, what's important to recognize about food security and, uh, I've got a book coming out next fall, um, called The Litmus Test. So Fall of 26 and, uh, uh, the Litmus, the Litmus Test, the Weaponization of Hunger, the Silence of Christians. It's the book with Baylor Press. And, uh, part of the premise there is that, um, you can typically tell the health and wellbeing of a community based upon the severity and prevalence of hunger.[00:34:00]

Hmm. 'cause hunger itself is not causal. It is the result of other systemic failures. Right? So, in the United States, if we see high rates of food insecurity, so in Texas we have 18% of our population that is food insecure with an economic boom and strong ag, uh, a strong ag sector. We've got some serious, like, like then, then what are these levers?

What, what, what is contributing to food insecurity that would cause it to be so high in a place that seemingly is doing so well? Or in a place like, uh, you know, Gaza Right. You know, you see, okay, well why, why, why we got all these children and, and families who are dying are in the sa in South Sudan, you know, of, of starvation.

What, what's happening there? Well, obviously conflict right? Is happening. Mm-hmm. So if you wanna solve for food security, you have to solve for conflict. Mm-hmm. Um, if you wanna solve for food security in Texas, you gotta [00:35:00] solve for, uh, um, uh, you gotta solve for the problem of underemployment, right? You've gotta ensure that everybody has access to healthcare because those two things are correlated.

Uh, you gotta ensure that people have stable housing because if they don't have stable housing, if they don't have stable employment, then it's always gonna result in food security. Yeah, every, every poverty related issue, it's like the funnel is food security, food insecurity. It always results in, in hunger.

So, so hunger becomes a litmus test so you can kind of identify the health and wellbeing of your community based upon the severity and, and prevalence of hunger. It's not an isolated issue. Sometimes we think 40 million Americans are living below the poverty line. 40 million Americans, uh, don't have access to healthcare.

40 million Americans, uh, are, are food insecure. The reality is it's the same family bearing the weight of all those broken social systems. So, uh, yeah. [00:36:00] Anyway, uh, but as we think about it, that, that's like, okay, that, that, that's what we're trying to address in a pretty comprehensive way.

Andrew Camp: Hmm. I love, I love what you just said because I, you know, it's new.

You know, the litmus test of the health of an org of a community is, is the hunger. Um, you know, and yet solving the hunger isn't just giving them the food. It's addressing the problems that lead to hunger. Um, you know, and, and so that just raises more questions. Um, you know, but, um, I wanna come back to it because you said, you know, like America's not operating at its best when we scapegoat, um, the poor.

And so can you, it's easy to bash America. It's easy to feel pessimistic about the state of our country, but like, at our best, what do you mean by that? You know, because I find it hard to be hopeful. Um,

Jeremy Everett: uh, I, I, um, [00:37:00] I feel like I have been able to see, uh, snip, uh, snippets, I guess, right? Uh, almost like a a, a movie Trailer's worth of America at its best.

Hmm. And participate in it and, uh. FDR has his famous quote, you know, the test of our progress isn't whether we provide more to those who have an abundance, but whether we provide enough for those who have too little. And I feel like every policy maker in Washington, every policy maker at every state, legislative office, anybody working on policy needs to, needs to, you know, print that above the door.

It's like, uh, you know, the Notre Dame runs out. They have the Be a Champion thing. It's like, you need to, you need to hit that every time you walk out the door. And that needs to be a litmus test for good policy. Right? Right. Yeah. And, um, I tell our students all the time, we do residential courses in DC and, and so that they can see how to address [00:38:00] hunger in a systemic capacity and, uh, or other poverty related issues in a systemic capacity.

And like the, the difference in good and bad legislation is typically a prepositional phrase. And so one of the reasons that you want to have proximity to people in poverty if this is an issue that you care about, is you need to be rooted in the reality of what's happening on a daily basis. And then also be able to take data and data analytics to be able to make a wise decision about what's happening that will have a positive benefit, benefit on people in poverty.

But, um, lemme tell you a story, right? Yeah. So here, here's, here's, here's a story of Flint America's at its best. We, our team at the collaborative. Uh, so we've got kind of three distinct teams, a research team, public service team, and a public policy team. Ideally, when we are doing interventions, we're, we're working, all three teams are working in concert with each other, and, uh, [00:39:00] that always happen that way, ideally.

And, uh, so some of our work is centered around identifying disproportionately affected population. We're experiencing hunger or food insecurity at a higher rate than other populations. And then developing targeted interventions for those populations that we have the potential to scale. Hmm. And so we'll do pilots with USDA, federally funded pilots with USDA, uh, uh, typically towards that end.

And so I had served on a congressional commission from 2014 to 2016, and our job was to find out why we had food insecurity in America, and then ultimately make some consensus recommendations for how to address it. But one of our consistent observations as we traveled border to border in coast to coast was that what was working to address hunger in urban and suburban America didn't translate to rural America.

Mm-hmm. Rural communities. You, you might have a church, a post office, and a school, but you probably don't have all three, much less a grocery [00:40:00] store, healthcare access or whatever. So we were seeing higher rates of food insecurity. In rural communities and harsher rates of food insecurity in rural communities, particularly for children when they got outta school in the summer.

Right. So we, uh, so we developed an intervention in partnership with USDA, where we, uh, the summer meal program required kids to go eat onsite with other kids and, uh, called a congregate meal site, you know? Mm-hmm. And so that's the summer meal program we've had, you know, for most of my adult life. Uh, and we've worked hard to try to create those summer meal site access points, uh, a lot of states have over the past 10 or 15 years.

But even we, we increased summer real sites from 2,500 sites to 6,500 sites from 2010 to 2019 in Texas. And that tripled meal access from 8 million meals to 25 million meals, but that still only represented 15%. [00:41:00] Of the population that needed access to meals. Wow. So even though we did all that work, like we still had a big gap that had to be addressed.

And so what we did with USDA is we, we got them to pilot a non congregate option since we couldn't get kids to meal programs and rural communities, 'cause there is no summer meal site. We had to get meal programs to kids. And so we launched a program we called Meals To You. Uh, we recruited 20 school districts, uh, in East and West Texas.

Those school districts recruited 4,000 children to participate in a summer pilot. We mailed, uh, each child a week's worth of food. Uh, so five breakfast, five lunches, five snacks per week over the course of the entire summer, and served about 500,000 meals and snacks to kids that had never received a USDA summer meal.

That was one of about two dozen programs that we were testing out at the time. It was one of our smaller programs, but the research team led by some researchers at the Urban Institute [00:42:00] found that it had a greater impact on childhood food insecurity than the National School Lunch Program, which was the gold standard for addressing child hunger.

Right. We heard about that. Congress heard about it. They asked us to expand the program to Alaska and New Mexico, uh, for the next summer. And, uh, but then the pandemic hit shortly thereafter. Yeah. Pandemic hit, USDA asked us to expand the program nationwide, and so we ended up serving kids in 43 states plus Puerto Rico.

Uh, about 270,000 children were on board the next year. Kids were so remote in Alaska, it literally took boats and planes and, and barges. And we even got reports of dog sled team taking food boxes to the kids, the kids in, in Arizona's Havasu tribal community at the bottom of the Grand Canyon to receive food boxes via mule teams.

Yeah. And then children receive food boxes via USPS and UPS everywhere else. Um, over the course that summer. So we served about 40 million meals that second summer. And it ended up having [00:43:00] three times a positive impact on childhood food insecurity for these kids in these very remote areas. So we were able to continue the pilot for a couple more years, and then work with Congress in a bipartisan capacity to pass legislation to make this a permanent option.

So now kids in rural America and perpetuity should be able to receive a non congregate meal, a home delivered meal, or a, a meal that they could pick up at a school and, and take and eat it at their home. To me, what the reason this is America at its best is that we didn't pack the boxes at Baylor. No. You know, we, we, we had industry, we partnered with industry who sourced the food, who packaged the food.

It was the logistics sector of UPS and USPS that picked up the boxes and delivered them directly to people's front porches. Hmm. UPS even launched a Go Brown program during the pandemic. Or they ask their employees to voluntarily, voluntarily move if they were willing, didn't have to, to some of these very [00:44:00] remote areas because they were getting more boxes in a week than they typically would in a month or even in a year.

Wow. And they knew that these boxes of food were lifelines for children in their families. And so people voluntarily moved to help get food boxes out during the middle of a pandemic. We didn't even know about this until after, uh, uh, the pandemic had subsided. We didn't ask 'em to do it, they just did it.

Wow. Uh, it, Congress showed that they can work in a bipartisan capacity. Yeah. Uh, USDA and our state agencies and school districts played vital role. Churches showed up to make sure that kids, uh, and their families were signed up, or they had those alternative sites, uh, where they did the, uh, the, uh, the kind of the, the drive-through sites, you know, for, for a lot.

A lot of kids to get access to it. So it was, it showed us what America looks like at its best. Right. And it's when we embody fdr R's quote [00:45:00] of our, the test of our progress is whether we provide enough to those who have too little. Hmm. When we're doing that, we're hitting it all of our cylinder, hitting on all of our cylinders as, as a nation.

Yeah. Um, when we're doing the opposite and we try to, you know, circle the, circle the wagons, we decide who's in and who's out. Mm-hmm. And, uh, um, and we start blaming the poor or scapegoating the poor for their plight. That's when we are 100% at our worst. And unfortunately these days, and we've been careening towards this for a while, it seems like we're seeing more of that and less of those glimpses of hope that show us what it looks like when we're operating at our best.

Andrew Camp: No, and I appreciate that. And it is, hunger is an issue that you mentioned that can cross political divides. Religious di divide, it can cross all the divides. 'cause I think at our core, we don't want [00:46:00] children hungry. Like, you know, people never want to see a child go hungry. I think like we all share that value.

And so how to make that a reality, I think is a issue that most people can get behind. Um, and yet we, like you said, we're, we're careening towards something different. Um, right now, and I'm, I'm curious, you know, we're recording this on, on July 3rd. Um, Trump's legislative agenda is in the works of being passed.

In regards to food insecurity, are there issues in Trump's legislative agenda that, you know, our listeners need to be aware of that they could, um, you know, 'cause that agenda's huge.

And so to understand all the different parts, like, you know, are there parts that we need to be aware of that benefits and programs may be cut due to this?

Jeremy Everett: Yeah, well, if we go back to that Matthew 25 text, and we, and we, we use it as a litmus test of sorts for, uh, [00:47:00] uh, you know, what does it mean to be a person of faith as it relates to people that are food insecure, uh, or, or thirsty or a prisoner or migrant and so forth.

And we hold that up against this current proposed legislation. Um, what we know is that, uh, uh, right now, um, we're looking at at least $200 billion worth of cuts to the SNAP program. And the SNAP program is the most vital program we have at America to address. Food insecurity. And so that will not just hurt people that are considered able bodied adults without dependents.

That is gonna hurt primarily the working for the most. Yeah. Um, because we will end up reducing eligibility. And so families who are working but underemployed, uh, and need this extra resource to try to be able to make ends meet, um, those will be the families that are, that are impacted. Right now, if you're making the federal minimum wage at 7 [00:48:00] 25 an hour and you're able to get full-time employment 52 weeks out of the year, you're still bringing home less than $15,000 a year, you, that's not enough for rent, much less transportation costs, childcare expenses, medical costs, food and so forth.

And so families forced to make trade-offs, and they have to decide what they're gonna choose to pay for in, in a given month. So if you think about, you know, I was hungry, you gave me something to eat, you know, uh, well these snap cuts that, uh. Uh, those, those are not, those are not correlative, right? Hmm. No.

Uh, second is the Medicaid, uh, cuts. So we're talking about 17 million people losing healthcare access and rural hospitals closing. Yeah. You know, so that just furthers inequities, uh, in our, in our communities. So, you know, I was sick and you took care of me. Right. Well, we're not doing that. And, uh, and so those, uh, that, that [00:49:00] to me is, is, is painful.

And then we're spending a lot of extra money, uh, to, uh, to expel the migrant, you know? Yeah. And so those are the people that are growing our food. Mm-hmm. Um, that are working on our ranches, uh, that are working in our communities on a day-to-day basis. They moved here to try to get a better life, not just for themselves, but for the kids and future generations.

And so, uh, you know, having legal pathways forward are definitely needed. Yeah. Uh, work permits and, and, uh, and so if we're, we're doing the opposite. All these kinds of things are going to leave people who are already on the fringes of society, uh, dealing with more difficult circumstances and for what, what do we gain?

And, uh, so, uh, so that's, so those are the things that we have to pay attention to when we're working on a [00:50:00] policy level is what, what are the impacts? And, uh, uh, so my, my assumption is by the time this airs is that, that that piece of legislation will, uh, will have passed and will have been enacted and we'll start to be, uh, dealing with the ramifications of it.

Andrew Camp: And so as we think through like then the response, like, we don't wanna. Respond out of anxiety or anger or, you know, but this inward response, motivated by love, like, um, my wife and I are rereading, um, reaching out by Henry now, and, and his, like, his first move is from loneliness to solitude. But the last chapter on solitude is that as we engage in solitude, we're actually able to respond from a calmer place to the issues of our day.

Like it's a beautiful, like my wife and I just read the chapter and we're like, this chapter is, speaks to so much of what, where we are and how do we have this inner posture of strength and [00:51:00] calmness, um, in the time of so much anxiety. Um, so as we think through a response, like what, what can people begin to do, you know, um, to love and to use Matthew 25 as our litmus test for how we wanna shape not only our lives, but our communities, but.

Jeremy Everett: Well, uh, that's a great question. I, I think, uh, my, my wife has said to me before, and I'm sure she's quo somebody, but, uh, you know, that, uh, um, that wisdom is found kind of in the space between, uh, stimulus and response. Yeah. And I think right now what we're seeing is that, you know, that, that we're all reacting to each other.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Everett: You know, it's just, we're just caught in this perpetual state of reacting. And I think for us, it, I think when we think about the kingdom of God within it's, it's centering ourselves, recognizing that, that we need to operate from center. Yeah. Uh, we need to connect with the kingdom from [00:52:00] within, and then be strategic about how we choose to act and engage.

Just showing up to, to the next march isn't necessarily gonna bring about justice. Mm-hmm. It may not bend a crooked pass trait. Sometimes, uh, the key to justice is through an Excel file. Making sure that every child receives that food box over the course of the summer, um, uh, so that they can eat. Yeah. But if you're gonna engage in policy, engage it in a thoughtful way.

And typically, I would just say, um, uh, most of our elected officials, uh, did not develop expertise before they became elected in areas where they are addressing hunger and poverty, even if they want, and recognize that this is a value that they want to address. And so people who do have proximity to the problem, people who have been working in this space, you need to build a relationship with your member and, and, [00:53:00] uh, and, and invite them in.

Right? Uh, they probably don't know everything that you know, so, so take them to your nonprofit organization to meet the families that you, that you serve and have gotten to know. Um, uh, you know, in your tenure, uh, help them know the strategies that you've identified that are improving the quality of life for folks.

Um, no, no point in demonizing particular individuals because we're, I think that's the big thing is that we don't want to just create progressive fundamentalism, right? Yeah. Right. But we decide who's in and who's out. I think what I love about the Christian faith is that it, it kind, and we're, we're inherently all, you know, sinful, right?

Yeah. You know, we're also inherently all created an image of God. So we got those two things that are held in juxtaposition, but it's like, I, I really don't, I can't stand from a place of judgment because I know that I, I, I'm, I'm not, I'm not checking [00:54:00] off all the boxes, you know? So that means that we can be inherently invitational.

Mm-hmm. That we don't have to decide. Uh, based upon, we don't have to create a litmus test of, of who's for or who, who's for or against the cause, right? Yeah. Everybody can be invited. Maybe they haven't been good on the issue before, but they can still be invited to join, uh, join the cause at this point. So I would say build relational rapport with your members so that the next time these big votes happen, they vote differently.

Um, yeah. And, uh, uh, and, and so that, I think that's, that's gonna be important. And I would say spend time getting to know somebody that, that disa that you disagree with politically, since that seems to be the divide right now that we've created in our nation is, is through political, uh, disagreement. Yeah.

And assume that what they say to you is true. Hmm. So I don't care what your [00:55:00] politics are, find a friend this year. Build that, that you disagree with, or find somebody you disagree with and build a friendship rather. Right. And assume that what they're telling you is true. And then ask that they do the same when you're speaking to them.

Hmm. And get to know why they believe what they believe. And, uh, and don't be so quick to rush to judgment. And, and I think if we start doing those kinds of things, the small acts and the big acts can start to, uh, you know, break down those, uh, those barriers that we've built and, and, and make those crooked paths straight that are, that our, our people in poverty are desperate for us to do.

Right. So.

Andrew Camp: Well, you've given us a lot to unpack and to think through, um, some hope, some challenge. Um, so I really, really appreciate all that, your wisdom and. [00:56:00] Experience you bring to this. Um, yeah, it's been a joy.

Jeremy Everett: Yeah. Well, Andrew, you're very thoughtful. I appreciate your, appreciate your questions and your, uh, the, the thoughtful way in which you engage this, uh, this subject, kinda looking at the correlation of food and, and, and faith and accessibility to food, to, to all God's creatures.

And, uh, uh, look forward to seeing all of the, the different conversations that you're having with people, um, um, in, in this lane. Um,

Andrew Camp: yeah,

Jeremy Everett: I think this is a really, uh, fruitful conversation, no pun intended, but, uh, um, I, I appreciate you reaching out and including me in your, uh, in your podcast. It is, it is.

You're creating a big table and I appreciate it.

Andrew Camp: Well, thank you. Um, and some fun, some questions I ask all of my guests to wrap up. Um, the first one's some fun ones after this one, but what's the story you want the church to tell?[00:57:00]

Jeremy Everett: Wow. That's a big question. Uh,

uh. That is a big, that is a big, big question. I mean, I think, uh,

I would say, you know, I grew up in, uh, you know, in a, in a Baptist, uh, kind, evangelical setting. And, uh, we talked a lot about Jesus's birth and death and resurrection. Mm-hmm. And obviously those are all three very critical, uh, moments in, in Jesus' life and in how we understand the Christian faith in our relationship to God.

But he also lived on earth for a while. And I would just say spend time [00:58:00] finding out what he did and who he did it with while he was here. And then, and then pay attention to that story and then go emulate it in their communities. Wow. Beautiful.

Andrew Camp: Uh, some fun questions then to wrap up. What's one food you refuse to eat?

Jeremy Everett: You know, we were talking about this recently pro Uh, I'm not oysters. Okay. I, I, I, I can't, uh, I don't know, man. I, I don't, I don't think I can, I can stomach oysters, certainly raw oysters. Yeah. Yeah. So that, that would be one. What about you?

Andrew Camp: Um, there's very little, but when I was in China there was, um, I was served a plate of chicken kidneys.

That were like stewed and boiled, and they weren't the most delightful thing I put in my mouth. And it's only recently I realized like that [00:59:00] that was actually a very honorable dish. They served us because it took a lot of chickens, you know, to get that. Yeah. You know, and so like that. Oh wait. You know, so I, I still don't appreciate it, but I appreciate, you know, like to recognize if I'm served a dish like that, the, the honor they're bestowing on me.

Jeremy Everett: Yep, yep, yep.

Andrew Camp: That's,

Jeremy Everett: that's a good one. That's a good one.

Andrew Camp: Um, on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Jeremy Everett: Wow. That's a good question. Uh,

I had, uh, some red snapper this spring that was prepared by a, uh, a chef with. Kind of Louisiana Cajun roots. Mm. And, and it, I'm not a huge fish eater, and it blew me away. Yeah. It's one of the best meals I, [01:00:00] I've had in recent memory, so That's cool. I'm gonna say, uh, that, that red snapper dish, Cajun red snapper dish.

Delicious.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Everett: What about you?

Andrew Camp: Uh, I vacillate, there's, I've been served a white truffle risotto that was, um, by a chef mentor. Um, that was phenomenal. And then, uh, the friend, my best friend was at both of these. And so, but then we went to the donut man in Glendora, California, and there's a peach donut he has during the peak of peach season that we took a bite.

Sitting on a grassy knoll, and we both looked at each other and giggled and cried. It's one of the most profound, um, food experiences I've ever had. And I've had the peach donut again, but it's never done that to me. But in that moment, there was just this euphoria of fresh donut, fresh peaches that commingle into something that was greater than the sum of [01:01:00] its parts.

Jeremy Everett: That's awesome.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeremy Everett: That is awesome. Well, uh, uh, well, we're, we're headed to higher elevation and we have noticed that everything seems to taste better in cooler climates at higher elevation and Right. Uh, and so we're, we're looking forward to that. We're very, very much so. Well, thank you, Andrew, for, for inviting me to be a part of, uh, your, your, your podcast and look forward to connecting you with you on your, on your journey here and, and getting you connected to other cool folks at Baylor.

Glad that you talked to my buddy Malcolm. Uh, he is a, he is a dynamo. Um, he is what, what, what a, what a gift, uh, to have him at Baylor.

Andrew Camp: No, it's, um, and if people wanna learn more about what you're up to, um, what's the website for your, for what you're doing through Baylor,

Jeremy Everett: go to hunger and poverty.org.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

Jeremy Everett: So hunger and poverty.org, and they can find out how to connect with us and, and get involved in the work and, and export the work that we do into their communities. And so we'd love to connect [01:02:00] with anybody that, that, that feels like this might be a meaningful pathway forward for them. Uh, we, we'd love to, uh, get them organizing in their communities or in Washington.

And, uh, glad you're connected with my friends at Bread for the World. So they're doing, they're doing great work, um, in dc

Andrew Camp: Yep. And so thanks for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. Until next time, bye.