The Biggest Table

Episode 40 (Andrew Arndt)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I'm your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast we explore the table food, eating and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.

And today I'm thrilled to be joined by Andrew Arndt.

Andrew is the lead pastor of New Life East, one of seven congregations of New Life Church in Colorado Springs, where he also hosts The Essential Church Podcast, a weekly conversation designed to strengthen the thinking of church and ministry leaders. He previously served as lead pastor of Bloom Church, a neo monastic, charismatic, liturgical, justice driven network of house churches in Denver. He received his MDiv from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and D.Min from Western Theological Seminary, and has written from Missio Alliance Pathos, the other journal and Mere Orthodoxy. He is the author of Streams in The Wasteland All Flame and a Strange and Gracious Light, which was just released on April 15th. He lives in Colorado Springs with his wife Mandy and their four kids.

So thanks for joining me [00:01:00] today, Andrew. It's uh, great to have you.

Andrew Arndt: So glad to be here. Thanks Andrew.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. So you've been a pastor for a number of years, um, if I'm not mistaken.

And so like as you think and look back over decades of ministry, like what, what comes to mind for you? I know it's a big question. We're just gonna jump right in and like, sort of. You know? Yeah. I'm curious what you've seen and witnessed and, um,

Andrew Arndt: man, I, what comes to mind? Uh, I, um, I, I am like, uh, hopelessly in love with the church.

Um, I'm a, I'm a child of the, um, of the charismatic renewal of the sixties and the seventies, so my parents were. And all their friends were like Cradle Lutherans and Catholics. And then they started, uh, you know, they just kind of got swept up in what was happening in the United States back then. Uh, the power of the spirit and they um, planted a church in the late [00:02:00] seventies, and that's the church that I grew up in, which was Flagwaving and tambourine, you know, all the stuff.

And, and, um, but there was such a, uh, you know, it took me a long time to figure this out, but there was such a depth and richness there precisely because even though they had kind of left their upbringing they also brought it with them in important ways. And so they were just good hearted people that knew the faith and they were full of the life of the spirit. And in a town of 18,000, our church was 6, 7, 800, just depending on the year that you pick or whatever, which is a pretty substantive community. And it was a community.

Yeah. And it just taught me, I think it's funny because like growing up in that kind of. Charismatic evangelical subculture. You know, I can remember a dozen times answering the, an altar call in children's ministry to say the sinner's prayer or whatever, right? And I remember that always being confusing to me.

'cause I was like, but I've always loved Jesus. Like Jesus Church Kingdom for me [00:03:00] was always the realist real. Hmm. And I think I knew from an early age that I wanted to devote my life to the church. And so went off to seminary, you know, after college and, and now here I'm 20 years later after seminary. And so, you know, when I look back on it, I.

I think, um, I think what I think I'm more in love with the church than I've ever been. I really love it. I also think I see it with much clearer eyes. Yeah. You know, I mean, I, I've seen how the sausage is made and it can, it can be. It, it's, it's, it's not pretty sometimes. No.

And either we believe that there's a gracious God who's holding it all together and carrying us to a good conclusion and, um, and whose grace outpaces all of our failure, or we think that this is just a huge waste of time. And, um, I don't know. I keep deciding for the grace of God, I keep deciding for Jesus. I that the, you know, the disciples thing in John six where Jesus is like, are you guys gonna leave too?

Right? And they're like, where would we go? That's kind of how I feel. I'm like, if you [00:04:00] have chosen these people and that includes me, I'm a hot mess. Right? Then I'm, I'm staying with it. It seems like this is your plan. I believe in you, so I'm sticking with you. So I, I see it with clearer eyes and I think I'm, I'm more in love with it and more continually surprised by the grace of God than I ever have been.

Andrew Camp: That's amazing. Because it's. Like you said, when you see how the sausage is made, it's either you, you wanna completely reject it or you hold fast and it doesn't, it's hard to find a middle ground. Yeah. But what. What has sustained this love then for you? Like, how have, how have you continued to cultivate not only a love for Jesus, like, but a love for, for his community, his bride?

Andrew Arndt: Yeah. I, I mean, I've had plenty of times where I've been really frustrated and I've wanted to throw in the towel. Yeah. And I, I, this is just gonna sound stupidly simplistic to say, but I think God is what keeps me in it. And every time I'm like, I've had it up to here with these people in this thing and the institution, and I can't do it [00:05:00] anymore.

Uh, I keep going back to prayer.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Andrew Arndt: And I keep going back to the scriptures. When I read the scriptures, God, you can never, there's like, it's impossible to have a relationship with the God of the Bible in the abstract, in the void. You know what I mean? Like nobody gets to just kind of wander off and sort of have their own private mystical experience.

I. Even if they do have moments like Moses in the wilderness or Elijah in the wilderness or whoever else, even Jesus goes to the wilderness, the God that they encounter, there is always the God that's chattering at them about the rest of the people of God. Right. And talking about his love for them and trying to get them back in there 'cause they've got work to do.

And I, I just feel that so deeply. It's funny because, you know, at the time of this recording. Um, man, it's just, there has, it's been a season for us at New Life East that has not been easy by any stretch of the imagination. And I went, you know, yesterday was church and I got home from church and I kind of did my thing [00:06:00] and ate some lunch and read for a little bit.

And then it was finally sunny. It, it bent. We had like a week of snow and bad weather here in the spring. Yeah. So I was like, yes, I'm going for an evening walk clear my soul. And I kept thinking as I went out on the walk, I was like, I'm just gonna like. Unencumber my brain from all of the church stuff, and it's just gonna be me and the Lord.

And I got 30 minutes into the walk, and as I'm just in a space of the adoration of God, God keeps talking to me about the church. He keeps talking to me about these people.

So, and I just think that's covenantal, you know? Yeah. Like, I just think that it's like my, one of my favorite theologians, the great Swiss theologian, Karl Barth basically says that in Covenant, God.

He takes his people to himself and he never, that doesn't break, right? So you never get God by himself. You always get God in his people. And that's what the incarnation is telling us. You know, that it's like the two are together. So I don't know. I keep going back to this God who forgives my sins and is good to me and tells me to go back into these people and, and, and help [00:07:00] them and be a part of what's happening there and where else would I go.

I keep saying yes to that, you know?

Andrew Camp: Okay. Yeah. I love. Encouraging to hear perseverance stories and people who love the church and, um, keep wrestling with, okay, what does it mean to be the church? Yeah. And what does it mean to follow Jesus? And that's really like your new book, um, which is beautifully written and you interact with so many different people, which I love.

Like you're bringing in your charismatic, you're bringing in Karl Barth, you're bringing in John Calvin, like John Lewis. You know, like it's mm-hmm.

Andrew Arndt: All over the map.

Andrew Camp: You're all, which, which is great, right? It recognizes the beauty of this diverse body that we're a part of, right? Like, yeah, not pigeonhole, but you know, it seems this book is, is is a love letter about Jesus for your people, it seems, you know, and so like while you love the church, you also see that we don't always get Jesus right it seems, or we have a smaller Jesus.

So like what? You know, can you [00:08:00] help us understand or impact, like why this book at this specific time? Like, you know?

Andrew Arndt: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What I, I think what I've, why this book at this specific time is an interesting question. I think. I think I have been in love with Jesus since I was young, and I think I've been fascinated with Jesus since I was young, and I.

Andrew, one of the gifts that the charismatic tradition gave to me was that it didn't just give me a doctrinal Jesus.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Andrew Arndt: Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So it, it didn't just give me a Jesus that was like, he lived in the first century. This is what we say and believe about him, but it gave me a living Jesus. Yeah. That's, to me, that's the essence of the charismatic expression is that like God is, God is here. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I heard us say when I was little, you know, wherever two or three are gathered in the name, he's there in the midst of them. So it was this felt sense. Hmm, that Jesus was in our midst, walking and talking and speaking and doing things, [00:09:00] and that in some way that I didn't even have good language for at the time.

Jesus, who he was, even the history of Jesus, like the story of Jesus, like when we read the gospels, we didn't read them as like, wow, that's so cool. In the first century, he healed somebody. Yeah. When we read the gospels, it was like, wow, he's healing somebody. So like in that way, like the charismatic intuition created this sense that like the history of Jesus was contemporary with our own history.

Hmm. And I, I, like, I didn't have, again, I didn't have good language for that I at the time, but, right. You know, I've since come to see in some of the great theologians, Bart's a good example of this. I mean, he basically, one of the themes that you see in his work is that in the same way that Jesus is like the king of kings.

The Lord of Lords. His time is also the time of times.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Andrew Arndt: Which means that the story of Jesus is actually the meta story that wraps around and is contemporary with all of the stories. And so I, I think in 20 years of [00:10:00] pastoral ministry, what circumstance and the weight of pastoral ministry have driven me into is this, um, this sense that.

When the New Testament says that Jesus is sufficient for all things, it must be true. So how and in what way is he sufficient for all things? And what I've come to see is that this story of Jesus and the story teases out the identity of Jesus. I. It's always enough for the church and not just enough for the church.

It's more than enough for the church. And so as I'm trying to lead people into the fullness of truth as I'm trying to lead them into that life and that more abundantly, John 10 10, the only resource that that I've been given to do that is by saying, have we seen this one?

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Andrew Arndt: Have we seen the one who is the Alpha and the Omega?

Have we seen the one who is the fullness of God? Have we seen the one in whom all the treasures of the, all the fullness of the Godhead, dwells, bodily, and all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge? Have we seen him? Do we know him? Mm-hmm. And there's been a burden for 20 years just to give that [00:11:00] away to people.

So what's funny is you ask like, why this book right now? When I started writing it. I was really writing it as like a memoir slash meditation on like the art and the craft of preaching. Okay. Um, and I was working on my doctorate at Western Theological Seminary, so this was gonna be my project. I was like, I've been preaching for 20 years, I think I might have something to say about it.

Let's give it a whack. Yeah. And I started writing about the art and the craft of preaching. As I got into it, I was like, I actually am less interested in how preachers say what they say. I'm much, much more interested in what we're talking about. Hmm. And what, or at least what we're supposed to be talking about.

Right? Yeah. And what we're supposed to be talking about is Jesus. Yeah. And it's not Jesus in the abstract because I'm interested in what Jesus is doing, like the impact of Jesus on a group of people. And so then you have to talk about the church. So then the whole thing just became kind of like this. I'm just gonna kind of show [00:12:00] how a preacher might gospel their way through the ebb and flow of congregational life and the chaos of living in this moment in cultural history. Right. With the story of Jesus's his and their only hope. Yeah. And so that's, that's where the book came from. So. It was fun to write a love letter to Jesus also.

I mean, I dedicated it to our church, so a love letter to our church.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Andrew Arndt: And, uh, I just feel like the, the fun of being the church is that were tangled up for Jesus for better or for worse, you know?

Andrew Camp: Yeah, right. You know, and, and, and it is, are the beautiful stories of what Jesus can. And does, yeah. For your people, like, you know, you share amazing stories of what you get to a front row to see, and that's sometimes the best part of being a pastor is you get to see, yeah what few people get to see in people's lives. Um, forgetting for bad sometimes, right? Like sometimes we.

Andrew Arndt: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: We have to make phone calls that are hard.

Andrew Arndt: Definitely. And that's, I, I mean, you asked like, what keeps you coming back to it? They said, I keep seeing the, [00:13:00] I just keep seeing the Lord Hmm. In these moments that sometimes are just desperately hard.

Right. And I go there and I go, I didn't expect Jesus to show up, but I just bumped into him again. Yeah. And now like what? That's done. That has deepened my own appreciation and it's deepened my own understanding of who he is and, and what he does. I, um, pastoral work can be like, so exhausting, but I just think it's like Eugene Peterson would've said and did say over and over again.

It's the middle of the action, right? That's where like, you know, when we think about, like we say, the Nicene creed, you know, every couple weeks in our church. One of the things I love about the Nicene Creed is that it's Father, son, and Holy Spirit. You know, these great affirmations, three big stanzas, but in the stanza on the Holy Spirit, there's not a break before it goes into the church.

Nope. It just piles right into the church and it's the creed's way of just gesturing at this idea that when the triune God gods in [00:14:00] the world. The church is the impact of that. Yeah, of course. The pet God is up to much more than that, but the most visible Yeah. Place, like the densest place of presence is surely the church.

So, Hmm. It's all that stuff, man. It just keeps me coming back when I'm just flat, exhausted and I feel like I'm at the end of it again. I bump into Jesus in the church and keeps me coming back.

Andrew Camp: Oh, that's beautiful. And like you said, like stories matter and the story we tell matters. You have this quote and it says that is quite simply what the story of Jesus is all about. The way in which God, by his Christ gathers us up to himself and glorifies us with him in the midst of this world.

Andrew Arndt: That's right. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Do you sometimes forget what you write?

You're like,

Andrew Arndt: oh yeah, that was good.

Who said that? That's brilliant.

Andrew Camp: How do we keep. Getting the story of Jesus, right. Because it seems in America like having conversations and you see the polarization and you [00:15:00] see this tug, you know, of some people who want Jesus to serve their nationalistic ends. Yeah. And you also like see progressive of wanting Jesus to serve their ends.

Uh Yep. And so how do you seek to bring the fullness of Jesus so that like. We don't get, we, we don't make Jesus into our own image. Yeah. 'cause that feels like the greatest temptation is like how, you know, we, we constantly want Jesus on our terms. Mm. You know, but, and that's,

Andrew Arndt: yeah. Mm-hmm. That, I mean, that's, that's such a question.

Such a great question. And maybe it's the question, you know, how do we, how do we not turn Jesus into an idol of our own making, but we let him, uh, Robert Jensen says somewhere that the difference between a living God and an idol is that a living God can still surprise you. Yeah. And so how do we keep positioning ourselves to be surprised by Jesus?

I, I don't know. I, I think an answer to your question. I think one [00:16:00] obvious way that we might go about it is, um, just make sure that we're immersing ourselves in the life of Jesus in the story of Jesus. Right. And I think Jesus, you know, familiarity breeds unfamiliarity, which leads to contempt. I think that sometimes we're so familiar with Jesus that we actually lose sight of 'em. We don't, we, we, we become unfamiliar with them. And so I think plunging into the, I mean, the church has always said that the gospels are the meat and potatoes of Christian spirituality, right? And that's whether we're talking about a personal devotional life or the church is preaching.

It's always that. Um, and that's part of why also I'm kind of, I'm sort of advocating for the, the church calendar in this book. Mm-hmm. Because the church calendar is an annual immersive experience in the story of Jesus. And again, it's its own way of saying like, this is kind of the subject matter. This is what we should be talking about.

So I think that's one big way. The other way though. Is that, I think you have to just bear in mind that we have this tendency to keep creating Jesus in our own image. And if you have that [00:17:00] mental check, and I just think a lot of American Christians don't have this mental check. No. They just assume that Jesus, that they've been given, and even progressive Christians, whether you're on the right or the left, they can have this.

Yeah. But it's like this, we've, we've just made too many assumptions, so. I think that we should assume because our minds are fallen just as much as every other part of us has fallen, that we don't get Jesus, right?

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Arndt: And we need to have our image of Jesus continually corrected. And how are we going to do that?

Well, one way of doing that is just by being in the church, because the church will give us other perspectives that will stretch and clarify our sense of Jesus. But I, I, sometimes the church even can turn into little echo chamber. You know, it can turn into like these cultural enclaves. So a way that I have found that has been helpful is just reading outside of the cultural enclave.

Hmm. So I've done my best to read across the eras, read across denominations and traditions, read across cultures, and just make sure that I'm being confronted by Jesus in a lot of different voices. And I, that really helps me. And then even just like reading broadly, right? [00:18:00] And sort of searching for the face of Jesus in classic novels and poetry, and even contemporary novels and other, other things like that. I want to hear what people are saying because I assume that God is not just speaking in this tiny little place, but that he's, he's, he's speaking from a variety of angles to draw us into his life. So those things help me.

But it's a real danger, isn't it?

Andrew Camp: No, it is. Because, yeah, like we get stuck in our echo chambers, you know? Like,

Andrew Arndt: yeah.

Andrew Camp: Not working in a church anymore. Like, you know, as a former pastor I had to deal with both sides now, not being a pastor, it's E like I, I've noticed how easy it is to just. Fall in line with people I like.

Um Yep. You know, and not have, um, yep. I think you also mentioned, I mean, I

Andrew Arndt: read with people, I mean, I try to read people that I disagree with.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Andrew Arndt: And then sometimes I'll, this is funny, like some, sometimes I'll have parishioners be like, I've gotten more judicious about this over the years, but I'll have parishioners, like I'll quote somebody, you know, on Instagram or something.

They'll be like, well, I heard that that person said. [00:19:00] So what they're assuming is that I only read people that I agree with 100%.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Andrew Arndt: And I just have to say to them, I don't agree with 100% of what anybody says. No, that's not the point of the reading. To reinforce what you know. The point of the reading is to challenge and sharpen what you know, but for that matter.

I don't know that I even agree with 100% of what I think. No. Right. And that is why we should be open to other voices to challenge. 'cause we realize, again, this is just a robust doctrine of sin. We realize that we have vast blind spots in areas of deception. So I need other people to speak in, into that.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And, and then that surprises us. 'cause I think when we're open yes to, to the broad spectrum of, you know, where Christ can speak and be found like. It continually surprises us, like yes. Oh, those charismatics aren't all bad and prosperity driven, you know? Yeah. People like, they're beautiful. Yeah. Like being raised white, evangelical, [00:20:00] conservative, like I hadn't been around, you know, a charismatic, and I got to spend three years in China doing, being a youth pastor for missionary kids, which, and part of, I had a, you know, a large swath of a OG people, um, and getting to know them and just to see the beauty of what.

A spirit-filled Christianity can be, you're like, oh,

Andrew Arndt: oh,

Andrew Camp: wow. Like this is beautiful. Like,

Andrew Arndt: and we have more in common than our differences. Yeah. Don't we? Sometimes it's just that we embody them. Right? We embody like our way of being differently. Like I can remember I went to, so I grew up charismatic and then I went to a charismatic, uh, liberal arts college, oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

And uh, for a hundred different reasons. I knew that seminary I needed to go somewhere else. So I went to a reform seminary in Chicago. You mentioned a Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. And, and we went to, um, while we were there, we attended a church that wasn't like, uh, they weren't like anti charismatic, they were just more like, uh, you know what I mean?

Yeah. So kind of like right over the middle of the plate, evangelical, which was we, that's [00:21:00] what we needed. And I remember being, you know, in small group Bible studies there, right. And we'd be studying the scriptures together, and then it was like we would end with the time of prayer and. I mean, this happen all the time.

I hear somebody say, they'd go, you know, we'd be like in this real quiet space and they'd be like, you know, when we were reading that scripture together, I just really, really felt like the Lord was, and they'd kind of like fill in the blank with it. Mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: And I'd be

Andrew Arndt: like, and then that would be, and that would constitute a release of grace in the moment.

Like ministry in the moment, you know? And I'd be like. That's what we were doing in our charismatic church. We were just louder Right about it. And much more bombastic. Yeah. But we were like trying to listen to what the Lord was saying and then we were speaking it out and into. Right. I was like, this is the same.

Right. It's just like style different. Yeah. So that's what the exposure, you know, to others does. It shows us points of contact and then it also shows us points where we need to be challenged

Andrew Camp: for sure. Right. [00:22:00] No, I love that. Um, yeah. Sort of switching topics 'cause your, your book is structured around the, the church calendar.

Um, but I noticed you left out like one major chunk of which is called like ordinary time. Yeah. And so I'm curious like what, you know, 'cause much of our life, like Yeah. Feels ordinary. Right. You know, and I think there's something there like.

Andrew Arndt: What was the, like what I'm guessing there was an intentionality.

Oh, Andrew. Gosh dang it. I get on the phone with Harold Press. No, let him know. But no, I'm curious like, you know, like, yeah, there was an intentionality

Andrew Camp: probably in it. Like you can only write so much like Yeah. But yeah. Where, how do you see ordinary time then, you know, which is in the church calendar. It's from Easter.

Till the start of advent for listeners who don't. Yeah, dude. No. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so like, how do you see ordinary time fitting into Yeah. To your work?

Andrew Arndt: Yeah. I love ordinary time. I mean, I, I, I like exciting moments like everybody else in dramatic moments like [00:23:00] everybody else. But, uh, I, I think so much of the deepening of the work of the spirit in our lives happens in all of the ordinary places that you just wouldn't.

Notice or think are super spiritual. And I honestly, having grown up in that charismatic world, I really struggled with the idea of ordinary for a pretty long time because I was conditioned to believe that unless your experience of God was like operating at peak level all the time, like you were constantly at a 10, then something was wrong.

Right. And since then, I've just come to appreciate, you know, Paul was like, make it your ambition to lead a quiet life. Yeah. And so much of the discipleship that's given to us in the scriptures is discipleship into the ordinary. Yeah. I mean, Proverbs, you know, right. Proverbs is like, so you've been filled with the spirit now brush your teeth.

Right. Make, make your bed. Yeah. Clean up your room. You're like, I thought I was gonna be more dramatic than this. And, and, and the Bible's like, well, yeah, it will be at times.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Arndt: But these things are actually the things that form a life, [00:24:00] you know? Right. And you need that. So why didn't I include ordinary time?

I didn't include it because I was contracted for 50,000 words and I ran out of time. But I think if I had space, but if I had to do it over again, I think it would make a great epilogue. No, for sure. Actually, to just talk about the spirit in the ordinary and the, and the way in which the story of Jesus encompasses the ordinary, which is an important thing to say and is maybe a little bit underexplored even in theology. You know, like these stories of Jesus are so compressed. Yeah. But when you look at them, there's a lot of space between them. It's like, well, one Sabbath and then another Sabbath and another Sabbath is kind of like how the narratives are. Well, so there's a lot of time. Yeah. Between there in which God, with all of the urgent issues of the world.

Yeah. Is not really doing that much at all. No. And surely that is saying something to us about also what it means to live a redeemed humanity. Mm-hmm. That the weight of the world doesn't need to rest on our shoulders. Like Jesus kind of lives with light yoke and [00:25:00] easy burden kind of existence. And maybe we can't too.

Andrew Camp: Right. No, I love that. Yeah. Uh, that there is a space in between which the God of the universe is just walking the streets. With his disciples. And I think that's one of the beauty of things of the Chosen TV show is it shows us this. Yeah. Ordinary Jesus joking, you know, having fun with his disciples, and you're like, oh, oh yeah.

Like this isn't, he's not always healing. Mm-hmm. But you know, he's just going through life. Um

Andrew Arndt: Yep, yep. At a different age. Walking on the, walking on, walking on the road.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Andrew Arndt: And just. And I, I've said this to my church over and over again. I'm surprised at how much of the ministry of Jesus is a ministry of distraction.

It's like he kind of has like this broad outline of what he's wanting to do right? With his life. He kind of knows like, okay, I gotta get to Jerusalem and die. But beyond that, there's just like all of these, he's constantly like, well, somebody called upon him to do X, Y, Z, so he went this direction and yeah.

Again, that's, I mean, what we're doing right here actually is what I've been doing in ministry for 20 years [00:26:00] and why this Jesus story is compelling to me. 'cause I just think that it's all there. Yeah. I think that you can find it. So you look at, you're digging around in the Jesus story and you realize these kinds of things and you go the, you know, like the core confessions of the church are not just that Jesus is fully God, so he's not just showing God to us.

But he's fully man. He's the representative man. So human. So he's showing a true humanity to us, right? So this is also in a way, when we're reading Jesus, we're also reading something of ourselves. Yeah. He's giving us a vision of what life can look like, lived inside the reign of God, with God as our father.

So. Ordinary time. I'll tell you what, man, if we get a second version of this, you know, update and expand it, ordinary time is going all the way in there.

Andrew Camp: Perfect. No. Well, 'cause I think for me you said, you know, like when you dig into the story of Jesus, you see, you find things that surprise you, you know, and like I think for me, I was surprised, um, when it was actually through Eugene Peterson in one of his books [00:27:00] when he, he mentioned that the gospel writers are most fond of telling stories of Jesus around a table.

Andrew Arndt: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Which is what that sentence has sent me into this lifelong journey of like,

Andrew Arndt: wow,

Andrew Camp: okay. What's the intersection of food and spirituality and

Andrew Arndt: yeah.

Andrew Camp: You mentioned you, you write about epiphany and that Jesus is upsetting the status quo through his teaching and healing. Yeah, and I would add, like, I think it's also through his dining habits definitely upsets the status quo.

'cause he gets more in trouble with who he eats with, um, and who he's hanging around with. And so like how, how do you see hospitality to the table? Um, and not just the Lord's table, but like, as we take Jesus into the world, how does the table function into who Jesus is for you?

Andrew Arndt: Well, I want to see people open up their tables more, but I think that folks are skittish about this now.

Right. It used to be that it was commonplace that you went and visited with your neighbors. Yeah. Or you invited a coworker over for a meal. But now I, I just think that we're living in a very. [00:28:00] We're, it's like a socially anxious culture. Yeah. And we just don't know how to do this. We now are so deep in the, in the social media revolution Right.

That it's almost like we only know how to relate to with one another with our thumbs. Yeah. And surely that's its own kind of conditioning. So I think we have a, a real uphill battle to fight. And I think we might. I think that we might need to explore some intermediate spaces with people before we get them Yeah.

At the table, because the table is kind of a tall ask. So it might be that we just need to take our coworkers to lunch. Yeah. Or we might need to, you know, just grab the happy hour after work. Right. Or coffee time or whatever it is. So we, we wanna try to come into spaces that are a little bit safer, and then we wanna reinforce the safety of those spaces.

Mm-hmm. I think by our posture. And our posture, I think has all got to, here's the thing that we, I, I mean, I just think the polarization of our culture is one of the evils of our age. Yeah. I mean, it's tearing us to pieces. It's like Right. You know, I'm just [00:29:00] charismatic enough to say it's a principality and a power, you know?

And so like the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but they're mighty. The pulling down a stronghold, it's what might we do? Well, we might just consider a posture of compassionate curiosity. Hmm.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Andrew Arndt: With our coworkers and our neighbors, the people that are different from us, just listen to them.

Here's our story. Let things come out in the open. And as we see points of contact and also difference, learning to hold difference in a space that's that's safe. Yeah. Can really help like rehumanize us and then as the spirit grants us opportunity. I do think just opening up our tables. Yeah. Our homes is such a big deal.

So like one of the things that my wife and I do. Every year during Advent is, um, we host a community brunch at our house. And so we fling open our doors, we send out invites, and then we fling open our doors on a Saturday morning. And, uh, we tell people to, it's a potluck, so bring some stuff to share. 10 o'clock, right?

And we're all gonna be, be together, eat some good food, and drink coffee and catch up with one another. And you know [00:30:00] how it is. I mean, you've got kids and you're in the professional world, and our schedules are really full. So once a year. Sounds like not very much, but it is astonishing to us how quickly that year rolls back around.

Right? If you tried to do it once a month, it would be like untenable. And furthermore, Andrew, it's, we tell people it's a 90 minute gathering, right? So we go, this is gonna be 10 to 1130, so it's not gonna take up your whole day. No, and I'm not gonna try to lead an awkward discussion. Mm-hmm. And I'm not trying to sell you the gospel here.

That's not happening here either. No. We just want you to come and get to know your neighbors and feel safe. And the upshot of it is that the people who are believers in our neighborhoods are getting to know these folks who are not believers and inviting them to church. And some of them are coming to church and coming to faith and.

Awesome. Yeah, and so I, I, I think we need to center in that. I'd love that. You're, man, what you're doing with, with, with the biggest table is so cool to me because when you look at the history of the church, one of [00:31:00] the things that you realize. Is that hospitality really was the church's evangelistic strategy in the first few centuries of the church.

So we think of hospitality as a nice dinner party with friends. Yeah. But the church thought of hospitality as the practice that you must engage in because this God has opened up God's own life to us. God has hospitable. Yeah. The reconciliation that takes place in Jesus Christ is fundamentally. Act of hospitality whereby God overcomes the differences.

Right. And he brings us home. And so what would Christians do if that story was true? Well, they might sit down with people and eat with them. Exactly. And see what the Holy Spirit did with that. Right?

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And we practice hospitality. 'cause in, in doing so, we might be entertaining angels unaware. Like we, yes.

We never like. I think for me and so long, it was like, okay, I'm hospitable so I can show Jesus to the world. But what if the better question to ask is, who can Jesus be for me and who I entertain? Yeah. Like who, where can I [00:32:00] meet Jesus? Like Matthew 25 isn't taking Jesus to the prisons, it's recognizing in the prison.

Oh man. And so like hospitality has to reengage this. Okay, where can I meet Jesus? Because if Jesus, like your book says, if Jesus is everywhere and. Uplifting this world and is feeling this world like there's no place we can go where it's not His holiness isn't prevalent. Yeah, that's right. Hospitality isn't, is no longer a yoke of me taking Jesus, but of, okay, where, where is, where is Jesus gonna show up for me today?

Andrew Arndt: It's like entering into the hospitable flow of what the, whatever the spear's doing. Yeah. You know what the coolest thing to me about that parable is, by the way? Um, is that the righteous. Are so conditioned to be hospitable. Right. And do you know what I mean? Yeah. And to, and to just show kindness, right.

To those that are on the outside, that they don't even, it's not that they didn't recognize Jesus. Right. More fundamentally, they didn't [00:33:00] even know they were doing it. Yeah. And that is a thing that I think we must fight to reclaim in our discipleship. It's sort of like the people that are really good at prayer.

Right. Are praying all the time, even when they don't realize they're praying. Right. And I think that's the thing that the church can recapture. Mm-hmm. That it is like we're hospitable, we're kind all the time and we don't even know that we're doing it. Yeah. So that when Jesus says to us, you know, I, when I, you did it for me, we go, when did we, we did.

We didn't even realize we were doing it. 'cause it was so in our nature to do.

Andrew Camp: Right. Yeah. And like you said, it's not about. Setting a nice table. It's not about, you know, laying out or my best China and having a Martha Stewart table. Uh, yeah, but it's okay. Who, who is Jesus? Who can I bring? Who can, who can I be for this neighbor today?

Mm. You know? And who can I bring a presence of? Welcome. Uh, today and, uh, be a person of belonging. That's

Andrew Arndt: right. And what does this moment require of me? Yeah. You know, and I, it's not some standard that I'm trying to fulfill. It's just I'm trying to be responsive to the moment [00:34:00] because. Even the call to hospitality can become a kind of burden Yeah.

That we place on ourselves where it's like, well, was I hospitable enough? Right. And I don't think that the Lord wants us to carry that either. I just think he wants us to go, did you just see what I was doing in the moment? Just do what the moment demands. Right. And watch what I do with that. You know? And you don't have to, you don't have to judge yourself around this.

Just go be there. Right. Like where I am.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Be consistent. Be present. Yeah. Be nice. Yeah.

Andrew Arndt: Great man. Great advice.

Andrew Camp: Right? Well, like, you know, I'm in wine sales, you know, and I'm not a sales guy. Like I, you know, but when I was getting hired, people were like, you know, my company was asking like, can you be consistent?

Can you show up and can you listen? And I was like, yeah, I, I think I can do that. And they're like, great. Wow. You know? Wow. And you start to see it pay off, like, did it happen overnight? Sales? No, but like over time I've showed up. I've been consistent. Wow. You know, and without forceful and people respect that.

[00:35:00] Um, yeah. And so I think, you know, you're like, okay, evangelism doesn't have to be a used car salesman technique. Um, yeah. You know, um, I'm working, I just got Andy Root's new work. Have you, I don't know if you're familiar with Andy Root's work or Red? I'm familiar

Andrew Arndt: with him, yeah, but I don't, yeah, I dunno. The

Andrew Camp: new book, uh, evangelism in the Age of Despair.

Uh Oh, wow. Be like just reading the introduction, you know? And I think it ties into your work because of like, mm. He, he argues that we've been so inculcated to this pursuit of happiness. Yeah. That evangelism has turned into a pursuit of happiness that Really Wow. Whereas evangelism is entering into a ministry of consolation where we meet each other in our sadness.

Wow. Wow. Because Jesus is a man of sorrows. Wow. Which I think that's what your book is engaging us is to do is, okay, how do we meet the Jesus who is crucified?

Andrew Arndt: Yes.

Andrew Camp: You know, not this triumphal Jesus. Yeah. But the Jesus who is [00:36:00] crucified and meets us in our sorrows.

Andrew Arndt: Well, that's the cool thing to me about the church calendar again, and like what it's doing is that it's giving a Jesus, giving us a Jesus in so many different modes.

Right? Yeah. So who meets us in all the different experiences of being human? That's Sure. So Advent gives us a Jesus that's on the way. Yeah. And Jesus gives us an, an incarnation. Christmas gives us a Jesus that's closer than our very skin. Yeah. An epiphany gives us a Jesus that's throwing o over the tables.

Lent gives us this Jesus that's like abandoning power. Good Friday gives us a Jesus that's entered into the pit with us. Mm-hmm. So what's cool is that. I mean, the human experience is plural. Formm. Yeah. It's not one thing. No. It's so many different things, and because Jesus has taken on our whole humanity, he meets us in all of those places, which is great for us in our evangelistic efforts.

Right. Because what it does is it gives us eyes to see that we don't need to just like maybe, I mean, growing up in the charismatic and evangelical world, when we preached the gospel to people, it was always just [00:37:00] about death and resurrection. Yeah. As though mirror atonement or only atonement were the only thing that a person needed.

Right. But what you see when you look at the whole story is that Jesus comes to us in all these different modes, which liberates us to be like, maybe the way that you need to hear the gospel today is that Jesus is in the pit of despair with you. He's gone there with you, is the forsaken one. Mm-hmm. Or maybe what you need is that your life has kind of flattened out with, um hopelessness and, um, there's no life left in it. Well, maybe the Jesus that you need to meet is the Jesus who pours out the gift of the spirit upon you. So, you know what I mean? Like it allows us in our conversations with people to be nimble. Right. And to apply the medicine of the gospel and just the way that it needs to be applied For sure.

To the people that we're talking to.

Andrew Camp: Right. And not seven steps for a healthy marriage.

Andrew Arndt: That's right. That's right. But Jesus, look at the face of Jesus and here see him. Yes, exactly

Andrew Camp: right. No, I love that 'cause. Yeah. And this is where, you know, your pastor, your livelihood [00:38:00] depends on being a pastor and preaching like, but do you ever think that the evangelical culture just we need to rethink what we do for church or like that church needs to shift or like,

you know, because I think preaching has its place, but also like. We're so inculcated, like you said, with digital media. We have five hours a day of Fox News or CNN or just reading headlines and Yeah. Right. You know, like news is just, I'm anxious, you know, you know, with good news today. Um, and so like how, how can the church and how can Christ's body be something for people in the mi in the throes of what.

Our culture's throwing at us, literally from political upheaval to racial up economic upheaval. You know, like everything is an upheaval right now. And so like, how do we use Sunday but also move, [00:39:00] have a church that is more than just a Sunday, if that makes sense. I don't,

Andrew Arndt: yeah. Well, yeah, for sure. I mean, I, I think.

I think it's a couple things. I think one thing is, uh, this is, this is part of the reason, um, that I think the church has to go back to its deepest roots of the faith. Hmm. And so we have to go all the way back, not just to the gospels, but to first, second, third, fourth, fifth century patterns, and then try to see how those patterns have endured over 2000 years Right.

Of church history. And then we need to try to be the church in ways that are consistent with those patterns. I think that's part of what it means to have the house built on the rock.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Andrew Arndt: You know, it's just, it's a sturdy foundation and, and. Um, we have endured some storms of late in, uh, as the church in this culture.

Uh, sometimes I just listen to, I don't know. I listen to Christians talk and I think they're a little too rosy about the [00:40:00] future and where the culture's going, and I go, I think that there are storms to come. I just think that there are like waves still. So what are we built on? What's the house built on?

And I, I want it built on the most. The most substantive things. The other thing, um, so that's, that's, that's all of the gospel truth. Yeah. And that's the great tradition. That's, we know what we're talking about, but I think that those things also need to be embodied.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Andrew Arndt: You know? And, and what modes does embodiment take?

Well, one of the modes is just, it's our worship. It's what happens when we gather together. And in the Evangelical church, I think we place a lot of weight. Um. On the ex on like an having an experience in worship. Yeah. And then 45 minutes of somebody talking at you. And I'm not sure if that's enough. You know, I, I think we certainly need to sing.

Yeah. And we certainly need to have an experience. But our, our worship also, also, I. It should embody those great things that we are about. And it shouldn't just be about an experience, but it should [00:41:00] also be a place where we're offering up prayer together. Like different kinds of things are happening, right?

That are rooting us and grounding us in a kind of kingdom humanity, you know? And then, man, I'm. I'm just gonna get in trouble for saying this, but I can't listen to that much preaching anymore because I just think a lot of it is like we're just talking way too much and this is going way too in the weeds about practical life, this and that.

I just think the mystery

Andrew Camp: has to

Andrew Arndt: keep getting put in front of people and then we have to keep. Um, we have to keep calling people to the promise of the gospel and the commands of the gospel and saying, this is all that's given to you and this is what is required of you. And we have to say that over and over again.

And then we have to try to work really hard to create communities that are good communities of care. Yeah. Where people are not just coming to a, a flashy thing that happens on Sunday. Right, but there are so many different points of contact and it's again, talking about the body. It's an embodied in terms of the [00:42:00] body of Christ.

Yeah. They're fully integrated in the body of Christ and that is very difficult to do. No, it's 'cause of the sheer level of distraction and mobility of our culture, and also because we are living now in such a consumerist church milieu. Yeah. That people get offended and they go, oh, okay, well what I'm supposed to do.

I'm supposed to go find another church. Right. They don't even under entertain the idea that that might be the wrong approach. They actually think they're doing the right thing by going to another church. You know, they're like, well, that church is unsafe. I'm gonna unfriend them. Cancel them. Yeah. They don't, the call like the monastic, the ancient monastic vow of stability.

Right. Which is rooted in just what it means to be, the body is like totally lost on people, so, oh, it's an uphill battle man. For sure. Right. It's an up, it's an uphill battle. There's so many forces against us.

Andrew Camp: There is. But like you said, you know, and you quoted, um, John Lewis of like, you know, we live, what's the actual quote?

Just 'cause I wanna make sure because it's

Andrew Arndt: as though it has already happened.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, [00:43:00] yeah. Uh, you know, as though it has already happened and, you know, I, yeah. Talked with Malcolm Foley who has a new book on the anti greed gospel and he, he wrote like that, you know, our job isn't to change the world, but that, to recognize that Jesus has already changed the world.

You know, and that's sort of what John Lewis is getting at too, of like, okay, we live as though it's already happened. Yeah. And, and, and inspiring that hope is really I is challenging. Wow. But I think that's, that's the call, right? Like that's what we're, yeah.

Andrew Arndt: Yeah. Do you know what, it didn't make it into the book on the John Lewis thing was that, in that interview with Krista Tippett.

One of the things that he talked about was, he talked about how in the middle of all that civil rights stuff, one of the things that they would do is they would set up these, like, um, they would set up these situations where you would like train for the scenario.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Andrew Arndt: So like you would train, they would train you in like [00:44:00] what to do.

If the police are mistreating you right, or if you're getting hosed down or whatever, it's, yeah. And so, and, and so you were trained in what the response was supposed to be. You were trained in what to say and what not to say, and so that when the moment of crisis came and the stakes were high, it was in your body.

Huh. Oh, wow. You know, and like you, you knew what to do. Yeah. And the analog there with the church is obvious. Yeah. So you had to believe it was already done. Like it is finished. Yeah. Jesus has, Jesus has done it. Right. You know what I mean? And yet when we gather together and there is still this like battle raging and we still are in contested territory.

So what is the church? Well, the church is the place where we like practice. Yeah. The reality so that when we get in the situation, we know how to be.

Andrew Camp: Hmm. And

Andrew Arndt: that's where, to your point, where you're like, do you ever just look at the church and you're like, oh gosh, we gotta do better. Yes. The church has to be this place where there's like so many levels.

Like there's a depth of [00:45:00] training that takes place so that when people are in the world and they're. You know, they're up against it. Right. It's in their bodies. They know what to do and they know how to be.

Andrew Camp: Hmm. Yeah. We practice having the hard conversations. We practiced what it means to love and we practice what it means to be uncomfortable.

That's right. We

Andrew Arndt: know how to not be flustered Right. By our neighbor who tells us that, you know, that expresses some political opinion that we've really, really, really, really disagree with. Yeah. Because in the church we've practiced those kinds of conversations. So it's easy now that we're out in the world.

It's not the first time we've had that conversation. No.

Andrew Camp: Easier said than done, but

Andrew Arndt: definitely. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And I think that is like the, the vision of the church and the New Testament is one of beauty and glorious, you know, and it does keep me hopeful, you know, because pastors get hurt by the church way more than we wanna admit.

[00:46:00] Um, yeah. But to still love the church and to say, okay, no, this is what, how God has determined we are going to show Christ to the world. Yeah. Um, there's something beautiful about that and yet so hard and frustrating. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. To hear from you and to hear that you're, you still love the church is always brings, brings me hope, so thank you.

Andrew Arndt: Wow. Well, you're welcome.

Andrew Camp: Um, as we begin to wrap up, it's a question I ask all of my guests, what's the story you want the church to tell?

Andrew Arndt: Oh, wow. Wow.

We tried it. Hmm. And it works. Jesus is sufficient and more than sufficient for all that we will ever face. And I want them to say that, especially to the next generation. Yeah, that's about to [00:47:00] enter into the struggle, right? And wants to believe it, but isn't sure. I want them to go. You can trust it. You can throw your life into it.

You know it. It works. It works. It probably doesn't work the way that you think it's gonna work, but it, it works. This is the truth. Yeah, I think that's, that's a great question, man. I think that's what I would say.

Andrew Camp: I love it. Yeah. It always provides a great summary too, but it, it's always surprising too to hear what people say and um mm-hmm.

To hear you say that, you know, you want the, a new generation to hear that we have tried it and it works.

Andrew Arndt: Yeah. I think,

Andrew Camp: yeah, what that would look like and what that would mean in this climate that we find ourselves in that where it. Um, so polarizing, so unstable. Um, yeah, man.

Andrew Arndt: Don't you just want the church to be a place where it's like you open the, it's not perfect, but [00:48:00] you want it to be a place where it's like you look in and you're like, oh, that's what it could be, right?

Mm-hmm. That's how we could be, yeah. Like, it's like the church is the, when you look into it, you're going, oh, that, oh, the kingdom.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Arndt: Of God. And that, that's the New Testament. Yeah. Paul says that when y'all are together and you're worshiping, praying, and prophesying, if somebody doesn't believe, winds up in your midst, won't they fall down on their faces and worship God saying God is really among you.

I, that's what I want from my church. I just want it to be a place where the it so looks and feels like heaven. That atmosphere is so thick with heaven that you go. Oh, oh, oh, this is what it is. Yeah. This is how God made us to be like. It's like you, you're not, it's not just that people are talking about the gospel, it's that you're seeing it.

That's what I want.

Andrew Camp: No, for sure. And it may push us out of places we're used to being in we, but it might still be exactly what we need. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [00:49:00] Because we may not, we may not have the power or the prestige or the position we once thought possible, but

Andrew Arndt: mm-hmm. You know,

Andrew Camp: to show people a glimpse of heaven.

Yeah. Yeah. That's what, where we can exhale, where we can exhale, but then also still be moved towards compassion and justice towards the rest of the world. Wow. Yeah.

Andrew Arndt: Yes. Amen. I agree.

Andrew Camp: That's, yeah. Maybe so. Mm-hmm. Um, and then some fun questions to have some a little fun 'cause we've had a heavy conversation.

Yeah. Some fun questions about food. What's one food you refuse to eat?

Andrew Arndt: Brie cheese, I won't do it.

Andrew Camp: And I thought we could be friends.

Andrew Arndt: I can't. I can go for funk man, but there's some kind of funk on there that I won't do.

Andrew Camp: Okay. So you can do some funky cheeses, but not like Brie. Yeah,

Andrew Arndt: man. But not that one.

There's just something about it that like the um, the revulsion thing like just is real high with me on that.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

Andrew Arndt: Yeah, [00:50:00] that's a no, it's a hard no.

Andrew Camp: Good. Yep. All right. I love my wife and I love cheese, and I love stinky cheeses. Like, yeah, give me a good stinky cheese and I'm, I'm in heaven.

Andrew Arndt: I'm with you, but not that stink.

I don't do it.

Andrew Camp: Okay. That's fair. Then on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Andrew Arndt: Do you know? I've always told people the best bite of food, the best single bite of food I ever had in my life. Was at this gourmet burger bar in, uh, Minneapolis, Minnesota, and the burger was, they called it the 60 40 burger.

So it was like, the patty was like 60% a mix of like sirloin, chuck and something else, rib maybe. And then 40% was bacon. Oh. And so then they cooked it perfectly, and then they topped it with three slices. Of applewood smoke, like candied bacon with a smoked, uh, cheddar cheese and like this mustard, this beautiful mustard thing that they had created on a brioche bun.[00:51:00]

And I'm sure that you've experienced this before in your life. Um, it's really a blissful experience, but I bit into it. It was so tasty that I didn't want to chew it. Mm.

Andrew Camp: I

Andrew Arndt: was like trying to figure out a way to freeze that moment in time. Yeah. It was so delicious. So, and it was good to the last bite. That was the best bite of food I ever had.

Andrew Camp: That's awesome. Yep.

Andrew Arndt: Yeah. Yeah. So, and they're not paying me to say this, but if you're ever up in the Twin Cities area, the red cow, the 60 40 burger, it'll change your life. It's like a conversion experience. It's crazy.

Andrew Camp: Okay. Yeah, there, there's something about a good burger that can just do, yeah. Yeah, I agree.

Like a, a good burger is one of those foods that I, I could just eat all the time. I can't because I, I would feel horrible about myself.

Andrew Arndt: Yeah. I mean, it's okay. I tell my family I consider a day a failure if I haven't eaten a bacon cheeseburger, you know? So I don't always win on that one, but

Andrew Camp: that's fair.

Yes. No, I've had, I've had some bites like that too, where you're just like, this, this, [00:52:00] I want this bite. Yeah, forever. And I think feel like there's some spiritual correlations with that, but

Andrew Arndt: it felt like eternity or something, you know? Yeah. It's like just on the cusp of heaven. It was amazing.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yep.

Jesus breaks through. Jesus surprises us.

Andrew Arndt: Yeah, he did. He totally did.

Andrew Camp: And then finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in, if you knew you only had one last meal to enjoy, what would it be? And so if Andrew had one last meal to enjoy, what would be on your table?

Andrew Arndt: Yeah, man. I mean, I'd, I'd be eaten that 60 40 burger.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

Andrew Arndt: Yeah. Nice. That, that would, that, that would be it. And then my wife makes a, like a triple chocolate cake. Hmm. That I don't really eat sweets anymore. I, it's like a thing in my forties. I've like kicked sugar and carbs and all this stuff, but I mean, if I gotta die, it's 60 40 burger in my wife's chocolate cake.

And that's the end. That's the end. Sounds good to me. I'm, I'm done. I did it.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. You don't gotta worry about any, any repercussions, any heartburn, any. No. The inflammation

Andrew Arndt: that's gonna come and the bloating, [00:53:00] it doesn't, it really doesn't matter. I'm gonna die. Yeah. So, yeah, that's what I'm eating.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Perfect. I love it.

Andrew Arndt: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. Andrew. I've really enjoyed this conversation. Really appreciate your heart for the church, for Jesus. Um, and if people wanna learn more about your work or, you know, find other stuff about you, is there a place they can find you?

Andrew Arndt: Yeah, I've got a couple different books that you can find on Amazon.

The one's right behind me, it's on the Desert Fathers and Mothers. So kind of the proto monastics. Um, I wrote that a few years ago. Really fun book. And then I wrote a different one a couple years before that called All Flame, which was like, um. An exploration of how the Trinity forms us. Hmm. And particularly looking at how the Trinity comes to us in sorrow and suffering.

Wow. And that was a, that was, yeah. A really meaningful book to write. It was super personal. Um, but they can follow me on, they, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook or X or whatever it is. Uh, the Andrew RN is where you'll find me on. Okay. On X and Instagram. Andrew aren't on Facebook. And then I'm on Substack too.

I've been doing that so they can look me up on Substack and Gotcha. And follow my writing there. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Perfect. [00:54:00] You know, and then your podcast as well. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, awesome. Yeah. The

Andrew Arndt: Essential Church podcast. Mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: The Essential Church podcast. So, awesome. Really appreciate it. Uh, thank you Andrew, so much for this conversation.

Yeah, you're welcome.

Andrew Arndt: Thanks. Thanks for having me, man.

Andrew Camp: No, it's been a privilege, and if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing it with others. Thanks for joining us on this episode of the Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food.

Until next time.