The Biggest Table

Episode 11 (Richard Beck)
===

Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp. And in this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.

And today I'm thrilled to be joined by Richard Beck. Richard is an author and professor of psychology at Abilene Christian University. Richard's latest book is Hunting Magic Eels, Recovering an Enchanted Faith in a Skeptical Age. As a prison chaplain, Richard leads a weekly Bible study for inmates at the Maximum Security French Robertson Unit and has written and spoken extensively about his work among the incarcerated. So thanks for joining me, Richard.

It's great to reconnect.

Richard Beck: It's good to see you again. Excited for the conversation.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, um, so you have written a lot about hospitality, which is why, you know, I think your work here is important to this podcast. And so personally, how did this become such a major theme for you? [00:01:00]

Richard Beck: The beginning of it was the publication of my very first book back in 2011, a book called Unclean.

Um, Uh, which is a lovely title, uh, uh, and it's, it's about the intersection because I'm a psychologist, but it's about the intersection of, uh, disgust and contamination psychology upon, uh, Christian behavior and Christian practice. In many ways, it's a kind of a prolonged meditation on the Gospels from a psychological advantage point where Jesus sat with and was welcomed at tables and welcomed people to tables who were considered to be, you know, unclean for either Levitical reasons like lepers, but a lot of moral reasons, right?

Tax collectors and prostitutes. And. Uh, and Jesus kind of describes what he's doing there as mercy. Um, he points to the Old Testament prophet Hosea and says, I desire mercy, not [00:02:00] sacrifice when he was defending his table practices. And I wanted to kind of explore that from a psychological perspective. And so I wrote the book Unclean to kind of get at the psychological dynamics of the push and pull of hospitality, why it can be so difficult for us.

Um, and then for me personally, after you write a book, people would ask me to speak about the book and then turn to personal stories. How have you, Richard, lived this out? And at the time I didn't think I had a very powerful or consistent witness. It's easy to write things, easy to say things. It's one thing to live it out.

So I went through a very intentional season of my life where. Um, I moved my social location and that's one of the reasons why I ended up out at the prison, but I also started, uh, spending time at a little mission church here in my town where we, um, share a meal on Wednesday nights with kind of the poor and the economically marginalized in our community.

And so those are the two places where I've spent most of my time, um, sitting at [00:03:00] tables with people very different from myself.

Andrew Camp: No, right. And yeah, your work on clean is where I first learned about you and began to understand this hospitality. Um, you know, and in it, You describe hospitality as, um, and I'm going to summarize, and so correct me if I'm wrong, but sort of the will to embrace before any prior judgments are made.

So can you explain what that means for our listeners?

Richard Beck: Yes, that actually comes from the theologian Miroslav Volf in his book, uh, entitled Exclusion and Embrace. And so he talks about a will to purity. Um, that's that kind of quarantining approach where we try to create, um, a, uh, a table of the safe and the same and the similar and the morally pure versus a will to will to embrace and both describes the will to embrace as this kind of embrace and recognition.

a person's humanity and their dignity prior [00:04:00] to any other sort of moral or social judgments that we might make. Um, because if those judgments get out in front of the will to embrace, if we start seeing people as a class, um, as like those tax collectors and sinners and prostitutes and lepers of, of whatever generation, then a process of dehumanization begins taking place.

Um, and so argues that we have to get the will to embrace out in front of those. Those moral and social categorizations, um, and so hospitality, as I described it in a, in a later book called Stranger God is, is primarily this affectional capacity to, to welcome people into our hearts, um, especially when they might be, um, different or triggering for us.

Andrew Camp: Right. Cause you say in Stranger God that hospitality doesn't begin at the table, but is an inward journey. You know, and other places you write that that first step is usually difficult. So, and you sort of touched on it, but what, what is it about hospitality? That's this [00:05:00] inward journey that is actually so Difficult to take.

Richard Beck: Yeah. So, I mean, it's, it's a both in, I think we can practice our way into this affectional capacity. So sometimes, like I described in my own story, that will to embrace that those affectional capacities are cultivated. By sitting at tables where we might feel initially uncomfortable are welcoming people to tables where we might feel uncomfortable.

And so there are practices that can take place first before the factual capacities, but but my my point about making that statement stranger God is. That, um, until we deal with that will to embrace, the people will self sort, self segregate, um, um, uh, some, some theologians call it the social logic of homogeneity, where like is attracted to like, and if we don't do something to, um, [00:06:00] Intentionally face those affectional, uh, uh, ruts that, that we have then, then the, the command for hospitality just kind of bounces off of us.

So, um, so I'm trying to kind of drive us into that psychological space where I am feeling uncomfortable or anxious or triggered by somebody and realizing that it's At it's in that arena of my emotions, um, the, the realm of a social psycho, that a social psychologist would pay attention to that. That's where that real battle is being fought.

And unless we win that battle, then we find ourselves at very different tables. Um, but people just kind of look just like me.

Andrew Camp: No, for sure. And so then what are those obstacles? And you, um, that we face those and, you know, cause you've written about disgust, contamination, um, You know, in, in those books. Yeah.

And so what are those obstacles then we face when we're trying to get beyond the homogeneity of a table? [00:07:00]

Richard Beck: Well, there, I mean a lot. Um, so I, I I would say, you know, the ones I focus on on clean, um, are the kind of the, the more, the moralization obstacles. Uh, we tend to, to reason about morality in the idiom of, of, of purity and un cleanliness.

And since. Christians tend to see the world through very moralized lenses. Um, we, you know, whether we want to or not, kind of activate those purity impulses. And that's kind of what the Pharisees are doing in the Gospels. In their will to purity, as Wolf describes, the logic of purity is a quarantining logic.

As we've learned from COVID, right, it's a social distancing. And the idea there is that the, the, the moral contamination of, of some group doesn't. make contact with the pure. And, uh, and we could talk a lot about that, but what, when I talk about unclean with a lot of churches, they, they, some people [00:08:00] don't feel on the hook because they're like, you know, I don't really feel disgusted or that I'm risking some sort of moral contamination there.

Uh, so some of the other things I talk about are feelings of like, uh, moral superiority, feelings of superiority, uh, and contempt. Or very closely associated, psychologically speaking, with the emotional disgust. And a lot of people do feel on the hook when we're talking about contempt, because that's like the emotion of our politics right now.

And it's the emotion of social media, where we're, And so it's not that we're revolted by people as much as we feel contemptuous of others. So, so there is disgust. There is contempt. Some of it's fear. Um, and I think a lot of the fear of the other, um, is kind of motivated by, um, a felt sense of scarcity.

Now that, that felt sense of scarcity can be, uh, real. Um, or delusional. Um, so, [00:09:00] for example, if you think about immigration and hospitalities at borders, right? One of the anxieties about immigration or borders is a felt sense of scarcity that there's not enough, uh, jobs. There's not enough money. Uh, the government doesn't have enough resources to take care of, uh, her own citizens.

And thus, if we let all these immigrants in, then there won't be enough. And so that felt sense of scarcity. Again, that can be real, or that can be delusional. Still, that scarcity creates anxiety and fear. So, so you want to have a wall up. So, um, uh, so those are, those are like. Three examples, so disgust or moral revulsion, contempt, and then fear generated by a sense of scarcity, real or imagined, or, or things that cause us to stay away from people.

And then lastly, I just say this simple dynamics that we described earlier about anxiety, about difference. I think that human psychology is kind of wired to [00:10:00] have that kind of stranger danger, that stranger anxiety. I think that's normal and it's adaptive. It can make sense. You want to identify your tribe.

And I think that's one of the kind of deeply ingrained things that we struggle with hospitality is that the human mind, it's kind of default moral software is very tribal. It's very, it's very insular and it wants to make a distinction between my people and my tribe and others. I mean, if you even think about the word kindness, at the root of the word kindness is kin.

Right. I'm kind to the same kind of people as myself. So even the word kindness has a tribal border to it. And so asking people to quote unquote be kind to everybody is swimming against the tide of some pretty stubborn psychological tendencies.

Andrew Camp: And, and that's what we see in Acts of, you know, this idea of how to, how does the Jewish church, the beginning church embrace others.

And, [00:11:00] you know, and it's when Peter has this dream of food and unclean animals, and God tells him to eat it, that He has to wrestle with this idea of embracing and moving past the moral boundaries he's been raised with and has lived his whole life with. Um, so it's been, yeah, it's been a battle since the beginning of the church, it seems.

Richard Beck: Yeah. I mean, in many ways that event in Acts 10 is, uh, like the seismic event in the church where, where, where her insular looking just inward staying in Jerusalem, still ethnically bound. Um, Uh, Jews talking to Jews, but that turn outward to the world, to the nations and to the ethnoses, right? To, to the Gentiles is huge.

And it kicks off big problems in the book of Acts. What Peter does that day in, in visiting Cornelius and baptizing them. Where that boundary, that kind of contamination boundary between the clean and the, and the [00:12:00] unclean pagans, uh, is broken down and that kicks off a huge issue. And here's the thing is, you also see that catching all through Paul's epistles, that fundamentally all, you can make a decent argument to say much of Paul's epistles.

are about hospitality. He's trying to keep these very different ethnic, these churches filled with these very different ethnic people, look at a book like Galatians, um, from fracturing along ethnic lines, uh, into Jew and Gentile churches. And, and, and he's fighting to keep them at the same table constantly.

Um, and so there's something about welcoming difference to tables that for Paul at least is central to the kingdom of God.

Andrew Camp: Right. No, and that's such a good reminder because I think we look at the culture today and we think this is just a new problem or you know that Um, and so what as we're living in a very fractured or dichotomized Society then what and even within our own churches it feels more and more [00:13:00] polarizing like what do we begin to do to You To combat this.

Richard Beck: Oh my goodness. Boy, if we could solve that on this podcast, right? You know, right? Yeah Yeah. Well,

I

mean to me I think one of the things that has to happen is um I think as we've increasingly descended into like a post Christian context, that, that politics has increasingly become like the repository of my values and my identity.

And, And because of that, um, we're seeing where politics should be a pragmatic discussion about how to, you know, balance competing goods, you know, like, if you go back to the vaccine [00:14:00] debates, you know, um, you know, it was it was a health crisis and, you know, Um, and you need collective action to deal with a public health crisis.

And so a push to get everybody vaccinated, that makes sense. And that's a good thing. Right. Um, but then, but then you also on the other side, people saying like, I should have bodily autonomy and somebody should make me put something in my body, especially not the state to put something in body that I want to, and that's a good too.

So how do you balance that? Like, like, how do you balance bodily autonomy, individual choice? In the face of a pandemic where we need collective action to get kind of herd immunity and, and get in front of the curve of the contagion, well, you know, that should have been a pragmatic conversation, but how do we solve that dilemma?

Instead, what happens is we demonize both sides of that argument. So instead of seeing two goods that we're trying to balance, [00:15:00] we're demonizing the good. And the reason why we're demonizing the good is because I think we've overly moralized our politics. We don't see it as pragmatic solution solving. We see it as, so in one sense, I would say that politics has become too existentially important for a lot of us.

It's become an identity marker. It's become the repository of values. And consequently, I think that leads to polarization. Um, because if you disagree with my politics, then you're evil. You know, you're not just on the other side of a, of a, of a weighted good. You are just rather evil. And so I do think, and I know that's not really a conversation about hospitality.

I, but I do think that it's some deeper soul work that needs to take place in the church where we can kind of. Um, lower the temperature maybe on politics and kind of cover some of the values of the kingdom. Um, and, and, and so what would be the metric of that? Like, how do you know you're making progress on that?

Well, I mean, do [00:16:00] you, are you to come back to hospitality or are you developing friendships across political boundaries? So how many, if you're a Democrat, how many Republican friends do you know? And how many of them are welcome at your table? And if you are a Republican, how many Democrat friends do you have?

And are you working with those tables? And if you're not practicing hospitality across those political divides, then, then you get those polarized echo chambers that we're seeing. And to be clear, that takes a lot of work. Um, and it takes a lot of effort. Um, but I do think churches are places where that can happen.

Um, because increasingly, um, churches. Um, uh, at least my church is one of the few places where, uh, political differences actually being encountered face to face in shared ministry and in shared tables. Now, to be clear, there are very, very conservative, very, very liberal churches where they're pretty homogeneous, but my church is [00:17:00] pretty purple and I think a lot of people aren't go to church with people that are across the spectrum.

And I think it's those, it's in those spaces where we come together and Yeah, maybe it's just hospitality over bad coffee and doughnuts in a Bible class, but we are, we are as a little diverse group going to go through this election year together. And these are good places where we can learn to practice, uh, kingdom habits of welcome.

Um, instead of defaulting into kind of a culture war fight, um, and the reason is because hospitality humanizes people, we are dealing with a human person and that's why often if we're in conflict with people, the very first thing we should do is. eat with them. It is much harder to hate somebody or demonize them if you've broken bread with them.

And, and in many ways, I think that's kind of the genius of the whole idea of the Lord's Supper, because back in that Middle Eastern context, if you break bread with somebody, [00:18:00] right, if you extend hospitality, that was like a declaration of peace. If you, if you have broken bread with them, you cannot like hurt them or kill them.

And so there's something about sharing a meal as kind of a covenant of peace. That I think is a really powerful idea, especially in a very divided and polarized, um, nation like ours.

Andrew Camp: I love what you're saying is that, you know, the demonizing of people and versus seeing them as, or even receiving them as Jesus, you know, cause you, what I love about your discussion on Matthew 25, when Jesus says, you know, when I was hungry, you clothed, when you fed me and when you, when I was naked, you clothed me.

And when I was in prison, you came and visited me. It's not so much that we're, a lot of times that Matthew 25 passages talked about, we're bringing Jesus to those places. But I think your emphasis is that we're actually receiving Jesus in those places, uh, which I, yeah. Yeah. No, go ahead.

Richard Beck: Well, I was going to say that's, [00:19:00] that's kind of where, um, the hospitality conversation has gotten so much traction, I think in this last generation, um, because there was a lot of words.

that Christians have used about kind of, you know, being a good person. You know, we have words like evangelism. We have words like mission, like missionary, mission trip. Um, we have words like benevolence and charity and love and service. And so the question is like, what is the word hospitality? Doing differently, or is this just another word for, you know, being nice.

But as you point out in Matthew 25, Hospitality is unique in all those words because it flips the script on like where Christ is located and in words like benevolence, charity, You know, mission service, but we are always the agent of Christ in this scenario, bringing Christ to the world as, you know, we say in our churches, you know, we're the hands and the feet of Jesus.

So we're [00:20:00] always Jesus in these stories. We're always the hero, the Messiah in that sense, but hospitality flips it and suggest that maybe Christ. is in the other. And so hospitality is an encounter with Christ in difference, or, or in the other, um, in a way that kind of surprises us. Um, because in Matthew 25, Uh, Christ is the homeless person.

Christ is the naked person. So in the practice of hospitality across margin, you know, across the boundaries of society, in many ways, I am being saved instead of saving others. I am being saved. Um, and so, you know, it flips it to say. For example, um, I can see my ministry out at the prison as me trying to save, you know, these criminals, but the other way to think about it is those criminals are saving me [00:21:00] and the incarcerated might be able to save the church.

How might hospitality to the homeless? Yeah, save the homeless. But how, how might relationships and friendships on the margins, um, show us how the homeless might save the church? Um, and, and I think that's just a different imagination.

Andrew Camp: So how have the homeless, or how have the incarcerated saved you, Richard?

Like, where, how has this impacted your soul and your journey?

Richard Beck: Oh, goodness. In so many ways. And so I, you know, for any listeners that know my work, you know, I, you know, my books are sprinkled with stories of this, but here's one story. Um, the way the incarcerative saved me is when I went, when I went out to the prison, I was in a season of deconstruction and I don't know.

you know, how many of your listeners know that word, but deconstruction is just that kind of questioning and tearing down [00:22:00] everything in my faith. Um, right. Really leaning into doubt and, and, um, and, uh, to the point where I would have considered myself, you know, at that season, more like a Christian agnostic.

And by that, I mean, I was still kind of practice, you know, still practicing Christian, still going to church, you know, Um, uh, praying and things like that. But, but if you ask me, like, is any of it true, I'd be like, I don't know. No, I mean, I think this is a good, I think Christianity has a lot of good practices.

Like I like the practice of being kind and the, you know, um, I still got a lot of value. I would go into church, but if you push me on it all from a belief perspective, I'd go like, I don't really know anyway. Um, and so I, when I went out to the prison, um, very early on. I was, I was trying to think about what to do for the content of the study, and I thought, you know what I'll do?

I'll do the lament psalms because that's where I was. I was kind of an [00:23:00] angsty, doubting, you know, lament psalm kind of guy. And I was like, well, you know, prisons are very dark and, you know, God forsaken places. The guys out at the unit will, they'll resonate with this message of where is God in the suffering of the world, in the injustice of the world.

So I, so I started the study and I was, I vividly remember this, I was going through the lament Psalms, you know, the God forsakenness, where's God, you know, why is there injustice and so on and so forth. And, and they stopped me, they just outright stopped me and they're like, listen, like, what are you doing?

And I was like, well, you know, lament Psalms, they're like, listen, like we get it, prison's depressing, like we don't need you to come in here and tell us how horrible our lives are. And I was like, Oh, that's a good point. I guess you're right about that. I said, so what do you, what do you need? And they go, well, we need hope.

And I said, I don't really do hope, like I haven't been hopeful. I've been hopeful [00:24:00] for quite some time, you know. I've been, I've been, I've been deconstructing. I've been hopeful. But they said, we need hope. And I said, okay, all right, well, I'll, I'll do hope. And so, you know, I started. You know, turn it into text and preaching sermons about hope out there and, and that, um, and that, that practicing hope like pulled me out of kind of the spiritual funk I was in and, and, and turned me into a season of like reconstruction, uh, in my life.

And so, in many ways, I was saved by, my faith was saved by, um, uh, These, these incarcerated men, um, and them asking me and walking alongside me as I was, I've been their Bible teacher. You know, they've nudged me towards faith in ways that I wasn't getting at my church on the outside.

Andrew Camp: That's beautiful. Yeah.

You, you journeyed in hope together through just having discussions. [00:25:00] Yeah. Um, um, and then in your newest book, like just to transition a little, like you're, you're talking, you know, it's called, um, hunting magic eels and you're talking about recovering enchantment, which I think. Plays into this maybe idea of hope and rediscovering what faith can look like.

So what, what's behind this, this book and how does it fit within what you've spoken about hospitality, maybe?

Richard Beck: Yeah, well, um, I, I probably should explain the title because everybody thinks it's a book about cryptozoology, you know, like, like Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster, the Chupacabra, you know, and hunting magic eels, but the story.

The story that frames the title of the book was my wife and I were in Wales on San Juan Island, um, which was the Island where a famous Celtic St. Dwinwyn, uh, had an Abbey. [00:26:00] And she is the St. Valentines of the Welsh people. And she became the patron saint of love because On this island, there was a water well that had these eels in it, these magical eels, you know, and the idea was if you threw a token of your true love into the well, and the eels disturbed that token, that was a sign your lover will be faithful through life.

And so all these lovers made these pilgrimages out to this well. Um, to, you know, discern if, if their lover will be faithful. So she became this Valentine, St. Valentine's of the Welsh people. And Janet and I were out there looking around that island, you know, looking for the water well and, you know, enjoying the legend.

And, um, but then I go on to make the point that, um, that's not our world anymore. Like it's an enchanting story, but people don't seek premarital counseling through magical heals anymore. And, and so it's about kind of that shift from what, uh, sociologists would describe it as like an enchanted world where the [00:27:00] supernatural is abundantly obvious to, um, our world, which is described as disenchanted, um, where, uh, we're losing people in the church rates of atheism, agnosticism are on the rise.

Yeah. Uh, the, the religiously unaffiliated, the nuns, right. No religious affiliation. Those people are on the rise as well. So what's ha you know, what's happened. It's a book about like, what has happened to bring this disenchantment about and how might we recover our enchantment. Um, so it's basically kind of bringing the, the, the.

God and the supernatural kind of back into view for maybe some skeptical people, which is where I was. So, so in many ways, the book is, was the product of my ministry out among the incarcerated and among the poor, uh, at that little mission church where I broke bread because, um, they were the ones that kind of put God back on my radar screen.

Um, [00:28:00] their faith inspired me in many ways. And, and so. The, this book is like the culmination of that journey of like, uh, reconstruction, um, for me. So in one sense, it's just the, the, the gift that was given, um, through being welcomed by others. Um, but I, that, but, uh, a more direct connection between the content of like honey, magic gills, a stranger God is that idea.

Yeah. So let's go back to the, the, in the gospel of Luke, the road to Emmaus, where. In the act, right? So the two followers of Jesus are walking down the road and Jesus shows up as a stranger and it's a very, you know, murky kind of, I mean, that's kind of a weird thing that why couldn't they recognize him, but they don't recognize him and then as they reach town and the sun is setting, they show hospitality to this stranger to stay the night and then it's in the breaking of [00:29:00] the bread.

That the risen Christ is recognized. And so one way to think about the connection in between hospitality and enchantment is, you know, or the, the, the line from Hebrews, I do not forget the practice hospitality because some of us have entertained angels unaware. And so in many ways, through these practices of hospitality, um, we, we do have an encounter, we do have sacred moments.

Miracles occur. We, we, you know, I, we see the enchantment there. Um, and, uh, and, and I, I bet, um. A lot of your listeners who are, and people who are joining this podcast would say some of the most enchanting evenings of their life, or the most enchanting, meaningful moments of their life occurred in Acts of Breaking Bread to People, um, where after a meal, you just look back.

I mean, my wife and I do that, even our marriage. Right. The holy grounds are we will go back and [00:30:00] remember meals that we had, um, when we were just dating or, and, and it's funny, like, so we have this one amazing memory where, um, we got to go to Hawaii cause there was a conference there and we would have never gone otherwise.

We didn't have any money, but I got to go cause my school paid for it. She came along and we talked about, we had an anniversary around that time. And so we had this meal like it was on the beach and it was a sunset. It was. We talk about that meal all the time, but we also talked about this meal when I was a young professor and we had like no money and Janet called me up after work and she said, I have, um, I have a dollar.

Would you go with me to Wendy's and we can share a frosty. And so we went to Wendy's, we had like a dollar, we bought a frosty, we had got two spoons and we ate this frosty together. And that frosty. Is this enchanted for us as a meal on the beach in Honolulu, you know, is [00:31:00] there something about meals like that?

And so they don't have to be because that's the, that's the thing I put on people's radar screen is these meals don't have to be. Um, the, like the wine and the extravagant and the five course meals, they can be, they can be sharing a frosty cause you have no money or like I am with my friends on Wednesday night, like the food that gets shared in food kitchens and soup kitchens is not typically food that most foodies will eat.

Right. It's processed cheese. It's, it's. There's no culinary amazement there and yet just sharing a bologna sandwich, you know, with somebody who's very different from you in folding chairs, um, have been some of the most profound experiences in my, in my life. And so, um, all I have to say is, you know, um, sit down at a table over frosty or [00:32:00] bologna sandwich over a five course meal with a lovely bottle of wine and let the magic happen.

Andrew Camp: Mm hmm. No, it is. It's true. Yeah, I, I love fine dining, but I also realize the enchantment can happen anywhere at any point and it usually surprises us, right? You know, like you wouldn't think that going to, to Wendy's with your wife and having a frosty would be a lasting memory for you, but something happened there and it's a surprise.

Um, not something you can manufacture, so how do we be open then to enchantment? Because it's not something we, we can always manufacture, but it is something we can have a posture and a readiness for, it would seem.

Richard Beck: Yeah, I mean, so William James, um, uh, famous philosopher and psychologist wrote a book called the Varieties of Religious Experience.

It's famous, right, right around like 19. Early, you know, the early 1900s, 1902, I think, and he talks about the [00:33:00] marks of a mystical experience, uh, an encounter with transcendence or bumping into God, you know, and one of his. His marks of the mystical experience is passivity, and by that he means, um, they happen to us, we receive them.

Um, I like the word, we're interrupted, um, we're interrupted by the sacred. And so you're right, um, much to the frustration of every worship pastor ever, like you cannot make it happen. They try,

you

know, they're trying up there on the stage to just, just make everybody feel all the feels. Um, and I think that's one of the reasons why worship music and praise stuff can get so emotionally overwrought is because they're trying so hard to make it happen for everybody.

But you can't, um, it, um, and you can try too hard and, you know, there's ways we can put a great meal together and. [00:34:00] It doesn't kind of happen. And so, so to your point, since we can't make it happen, what, what can we do? So I think you're, I think some of it is, uh, so there was a, there was a student, I teach an adjunct class over at Fuller Theological Seminary.

And, um, I was talking about enchantment and one of my students, Tony Trebek was a pastor out in California. And he talked about how he'd lived out there for some many years, um, and, uh, really enjoyed spotting whales out in the spot. Pacific. Um, but, but the curiosity was his wife had been out there the same amount of time and she'd never seen a whale.

So he kind of uses this idea of enchantment being whale, whale spotting. And his point is like, how do you spot a whale? Well, you got to go to the beach. So that's the, that's the intentional part, right? You can, you can put yourself at the beach, right? You can, you can put yourself at tables. Um, uh, and you can keep doing that even [00:35:00] if you go there and nothing happens, but you can keep the posture that can become a habit, a behavior.

And then when you're there, you have to not be at the beach and reading a book. You have to. You know, or closing your eyes as you sunbathe, you have to be gazing out over the ocean. And if you do that, right, if you go through these practices, you will see whales. So I do think we, we have to, um, have intention and then practices that kind of make us available for these divine interruptions.

Um, and that's important because when I tell stories of the prison, I was talking about this just, just this week with my co co teacher out at the prison, um, that, that a lot of these ministries are, are, are disciplines of fidelity. Cause I can, like I told you that really beautiful story about preaching hope that, that first night, and I can tell you beautiful stories about eating at Freedom Fellowship and [00:36:00] then people will want to come along.

Hey, I've heard your stories. I'm inspired. Can I come out to the prison? And I'm like, sure. And, or can they'll go to Freedom Fellowship and they're going to, they're going to think that some amazing things are going to happen. And nothing often does happen, you know, and mostly it's just awkward because you're new and you don't know any of these people.

And so, um, and I do think this is one of the problems in Christian podcasting and Christian, uh, writing and in Christian preaching is the telling of the amazing story. Like, like, like, like, you've got to tell an amazing story to be a great author, you know, and you talk about all these stories. And I've been, I do that in my books.

I tell you the best stories out of the prison. I tell you the best stories at Freedom Fellowship. And, um, but then people show up in those spaces. They're like, I don't see it. Like this is. Kind of lame or [00:37:00] boring or weird. And, um, and so that's why I try to tell people, like, if you want to come, don't come specting magic.

Like, you got to keep coming. That's the, that's the trick. You got to keep showing up at that table and over time, right? Yeah, you go to the beach and keep looking for whales and then God interrupts you. And so I do think a lot of people want like quick fixes. Like I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this practice of hospitality.

I'm gonna have these people over and some sort of amazing thing is going to happen because I've listened to Andrew's podcast, you know, and, and it was just exhausting. no, no fireworks, but if you keep showing up, um, and I think that's why it says in Hebrews, do not write, do not forget to practice hospitality, right?

It's, it's, it's a continual practice, you know, so don't forget it, keep doing it and then God will show up. And so I think some of this stuff is about fidelity to [00:38:00] the practice and not necessarily trying to conjure up an amazing experience. Um, and Uh, a perfect table and, and something, fireworks will happen.

Um, so those are just some thoughts.

Andrew Camp: No, those are great. And as you're talking about fidelity, I'm just thinking, you know, as a father of young girls, as we're, we try to have dinner around the table, we try to be faithful for that. And there are times where it's a frustrating experience because, you know, a five and a seven year old, they're dealing with everything, right?

But there are then moments where it. We are disrupted by God's presence, and we are reminded of the joy. Um, you know, for instance, we were having a cheese and wine night, you know, at our house on Monday night, and we gave the girls, you know, not the cheese we were eating, just cause, you know, the Their palates don't [00:39:00] like it yet.

Right. But they made their own cheese and meat platters. And at one point, Hazel or seven year old says, daddy, you got to try this. Like, it is so good, but you have to have two Ritz crackers. And, you know, it's just, and she does the like, you know, kiss on the lips, you know, the magnifico type thing, you know, and just to see that joy, you know, you're just like, okay, this is why we as a family sit down every night, you know, and, and cause in that connection moment, she's experiencing something that she loves and will hopefully.

resonate with her throughout her life. Yeah.

Richard Beck: No, I think you're right. I think, I think that's probably the best way to think about Christian practices. Like, Christian practices are not, um, moral exertions. We're not like doing these things to become better people. Uh, neither are we trying to like climb some spiritual maturity ladder, practice these, these things to make us available to divine interruptions.

[00:40:00] And so that night, right? You're interrupted and you're going, that's, but if I don't do that practice, I never get those moments. No,

Andrew Camp: no, or if I get fed up because one night is rough and I do get fed up, right? Like, you know, to stay with it, you know, and, and to hope and to say that, you know, no, this is important.

This is who we are as a family. You know, hopefully pays off down the road.

Yeah.

Andrew Camp: No, thank you. No, sorry. This is a great conversation, you know, and as we think about beginning to wrap up There's a question. I I love asking people and you've hinted at it and but Sort of summarize as you think about the church today.

What what's the story you want the church to tell? to be telling, you know, to our world or to its culture.

Richard Beck: Wow. I mean, a lot of things. Yeah. Um, there's a lot of things,[00:41:00]

you know, I was talking, I'll just say something that was just on my mind because it's something I talked about with some of my students yesterday. You know, we were in class and And I was talking about faith and, um, and I said, you know, one of the

distinctive things about the ministry of Jesus, a lot of scholars will point to this and say that the distinctive thing about the message of Jesus and the distinctive aspect of the Christian faith is this idea of grace. You don't see that really emphasized much in the Old Testament. You don't see it emphasized over much in Eastern religions, whether you're kind of locked in kind of to a kind of a karma cycle.

You don't see a lot of it in Islam or even in paganism, right? But this idea of grace. is a distinctly Christian idea that, that, [00:42:00] um, you're not going to get what you deserve, that there's, you're going to get something, um, better, you know, something you don't deserve. And I kind of wish the church would become like the prophets of this, you know, that we would be the people that would be distinguished by grace and graciousness.

Um, and I think that connects with hospitality because I think hosp I think Acts of hospitality are the incarnations of grace, right? It is, it is a, you're welcome here. You know, um, I see you, um, that will to embrace, you know, cause so, so grace doesn't just become this line. I love everybody. It's not aspirational, it's not vague, it's concrete and practicing.

And so, to me, that would be what [00:43:00] I wish the church, like, we would get back to what the central, what I think is the central message of the Christian religion, which is a message of forgiveness and mercy and grace. Um, and that's what we will be, um, Known for, you know, that we wouldn't be known for hostility or anger

or

just anxiety.

We just look like a very anxious kind of group of people. Um, but non anxious people filled with grace, um, I think would be,

I

mean, how attractive is that? I think it's just a compelling message. And I just. I'm dismayed and perplexed why Christians aren't better at proclaiming their own faith in many ways, like, because the Christianity I see online and in the world to me just seems kind of unrecognizable to me in many ways because it's so ungracious.

Um, so that's what I would say. Grace.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, it's a [00:44:00] great word, you know, and it's that reaching out to touch before cleansing, you know, or, um, not asking people to clean up before we extend grace, but the extension of grace first. Mm hmm. No, thank you for that word. Um, and then, um, As we wrap up a few fun questions, just that are fun questions, you know, um, since it's a, it's a, it's about food and stuff.

And so, sure. So what's one food you refuse to eat?

Richard Beck: Well, I mean, this is going to be horrible. I'm going to say horrible things on this, on this podcast, because, you know, there's probably a lot of food he's listening, you know? And so I just would like to say I've been brought on as a psychologist and a theologian and not as a culinary expert.

I've, I've, I've never liked tomatoes. I don't like, I'm not a tomato person, which kind of rules out a lot of dishes, you know.

Andrew Camp: So like Italian food is just not something you do. Well,

Richard Beck: no, I love Italian food. I don't mind. Um, so [00:45:00] I don't like tomatoes, like eating a sliced tomato. Let me just say that. Okay. But, but, but when, when tomatoes are used in like dishes, I don't, I don't necessarily mind that.

If there, if there's chunks of tomatoes in it, I don't like it. Um, and that goes all the way back to childhood, back to kind of discuss psychology. You know, a lot of these, you know, my book on clean, um, you know, a lot of these food preferences can get kind of locked in at a young age. And then you have to be real back to practices, real intentional to kind of, uh, unlearn some of these.

And some parents will notice this where their kids food preferences is. Um, they used to eat a lot of stuff and then there's that season, you know, where they, um, they get real narrow. Right. Um, and I think mine locked in on, I don't know why, but the tomato locked in and I've never been able to practice my way out of it.

Maybe if I toured Italy. Right. That would be like, I should do that as a spiritual discipline. I will tour Italy and [00:46:00] learn to like tomatoes.

Andrew Camp: Yes. And now that you and your wife are empty nesters, take her on a tour of Italy and eat. Really good fine ripened tomatoes. And I was similar for a little while where I couldn't eat a tomato.

Um, just especially a cherry tomato because of the explosion.

Richard Beck: Yeah. And I do think there's something about that because a lot of people say they're, you know, you're in the food world, right? They're, they're like texture issues. It's not really, there's something about the softness or something or the explosion you felt.

So sometimes it's not even the taste. It's the, it's the, the mouthfeel, I guess, that throws somebody off.

Andrew Camp: Yep. No, for sure. No, I've had some interesting responses where I'm like, wow, like somebody, what guest one said, they don't like mushrooms. And I'm like, how do you not like mushrooms? Yeah, no, no, no. Again, it's, it's, it's every, yeah, those food preferences are, are real.

So then on the other end of the spectrum, what's the best thing you've ever eaten?

Richard Beck: The best thing I've ever eaten? Yeah.

Oh my [00:47:00] goodness.

Um,

that's an, uh, that's an interesting, I mean, I can think of some of the best meals I've had. So I'm kind of, you know, I'm down here in, in, uh, West Texas. So like, Barbecue and steak houses are like a big deal. So I apologize for all my vegan and vegetarian friends, but typically down here, I've typically, you know, had like a, like an amazing steak, um, at, at some like, so there's a restaurant here.

Um, you know, so there's a restaurant here, Perini's Ranch is like, like. It's the place people go. Like if you come to West Texas and people like, I want a steak, where do you go? We go out, we drive about 30 minutes out of town to what's called pretty steakhouse. You can look it up online. It's pretty famous.

I think they've even served meals at the white house. Um, and so, uh, [00:48:00] but man, they had these, what are called jalapeno poppers out there. Yeah. So it's, it's cream cheese, And, and, um, a jalapeno wrapped in bacon with like a little sweet, like drizzle on it. I don't know what the, I don't know what the glaze is.

So it's, it's, it's spicy, but savory because of the bacon and the cheese and has a little bit of a sweet on it. And I don't know, but man, bacon, jalapenos and cream cheese are like, I don't know. I just love that.

Andrew Camp: No, I understand. No, it does sound delicious.

Richard Beck: So let, let me be the person to put hollow, like, like, have you ever had one of these?

Andrew Camp: Not in Texas. No, but I, I know what you're talking about.

Richard Beck: But if you go to a restaurant like in Texas that like, where they, you know, these aren't things that buy a store, but like made by like a chef. I mean, you know, this is kind of like Bobby Flay kind of stuff, right? It's a Southwestern. Hot spice, savory, but a little bit of a sweet like that's that's [00:49:00] what I'm talking about.

That particular, um, southwest, uh, combination, um, is, is out of this world.

Andrew Camp: No, for sure. And then finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals as in, like, if you knew you had one last meal to enjoy, what would it be? So, so if you knew you had one last meal left on earth, what, what would it be?

Richard Beck: Okay, so this is, this is, um, a movie reference. What, so what was the, I think it was called The Menu, the one with the Ralph Fines, I think. Was it called the,

Andrew Camp: yeah, I haven't seen it, but no, yeah, I've, okay. I'm just familiar with the conversation, so

Richard Beck: well. Well, so it's kind of a dark comedy or dark satire. I don't know how funny it is, but, but it's a dark comedy on like food culture and, um, and food criticism.

Um, but there's this moment in it and this is, oh, [00:50:00] this is a bit of a, this is a bit of a, uh, spoiler. More more morning right where this the greatest chef ever right is displaying all of these techniques and explosions of taste in each course of the meal and at one critical point in the movie you discover that the chef was actually like, uh, started off as like a teenager, like flipping burgers like that was his beginning in his.

Right. He was flipping burgers to become the greatest chef, you know, and, um, and, and there is this moment in the movie where, um, and it kind of, kind of the point of the movie is the, the aesthetics of the food have come to replace the food itself. Um, right. Everybody's going to, I've been caught up into the conversation about the food, but the actual,

and, [00:51:00]

Richard Beck: and, and, and, and part of the subtle context is like how if you go to these fine dining restaurants, like you can't actually be full, I think you'd be like, it's all.

So we're all just like tasting things. But nobody's like satisfied, like nobody's satiated, like how to, you know, push back from the chair with a full belly, you know, like you don't get that feeling in fine dining restaurants. You're just caught up in the, I guess the culinary fireworks, um, and also just the sampling of tastes, but never eating, right?

Never really eating. Um, and so. The, the, there's a moment in, in, in the thing where at a climactic moment, the, um, and a lot is hanging on the balance. So I'm going to kind of vague about this where the, um, the, the lead of the thing challenges the chef to make a cheeseburger [00:52:00] and this is like the breakthrough moment.

Like this, this functionally saves her life. Because she's asked for, like, food, like, like a burger. And so this world renowned chef, you see him prepare this burger. Right. You know, going back to his days on the burger line. And so I'm saying all I have to say, that if I had one last meal, I would want an incredible burger.

With fries. And a chocolate molt. Like, that's my, that's my send off. I would love a cheeseburger with fries. Like, a good one. Like, the one prepared on the menu. And everybody's seen the movie, they'll know what I'm talking about. Like, the best burger you could think of. Juicy, melted cheese, fries, And a chocolate shake like that for since being a child has been like my favorite comfort food ever,

Andrew Camp: but no, no slice of tomato on that burger for Richard.

Yeah,

Richard Beck: but no [00:53:00] slice of tomato.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Richard Beck: So, so again, I'll be your one guest that has put jalapeno poppers and my last meal is a cheeseburger.

Andrew Camp: No, it's great. It's awesome. It's fun. That's what's so fun to see. And here are these questions. Is the differing. Yeah. Aspects of what people, how people associate with the question.

Yeah, I'm a

Richard Beck: chocolate malt connoisseur. Okay. Like, you know, and there's a funny saying, because my boys have heard their dad order whenever I could, not because not every place has malts, you know, chocolate shakes. And, and so the joke in my family, it's still, this is legend in the Beck family is, is the boys asked me when they were like, dad, what's the difference between a chocolate shake and a chocolate malt?

And my answer was, Deliciousness. And so they, they still, we still talk about that. What's the difference between a chocolate shake and a chocolate mold? Answer deliciousness. Fair.

Andrew Camp: No, I love it. Well, Richard, I really appreciate, um, you taking the time and, um, it's always great [00:54:00] to talk with you and hear your heart, um, and just, yeah, your thought has really impacted me and.

Um, and not just your thought, but your life, you know, and how you, you actually live what you're, you're writing about, which you say is harder to do. Um, so no, I just appreciate it. Um, you have a blog, what's your blog where people might see more of your ideas?

Richard Beck: So it exists in two virtual spaces. So the original blog is on blogspot, it's called Experimental Theology at blogspot, but a lot of my people now are, are subscribing to it, uh, through Substack.

So if you go to Substack and, and, um, look up experimental theology, Richard Beck, you can get it in your inbox, um, every morning. So, um, yeah, experimental theology, Richard Beck, you'll find it one of those two places.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And his books are readily available. Wherever you buy your books and just really, really encourage you to read, um, and interact with this thought, just, um, especially in today's culture.

Um, so again, thank you for listening. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving [00:55:00] a review or sharing it with others. Thanks for joining us on this episode of the biggest table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food until next time.

Bye.

Richard Beck: Awesome.