The Biggest Table

Episode 27 (Jeannine Hanger)
===

Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I'm your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another. And today I'm joined by Jeannine Hanger. Jeannine Hanger is an associate professor of New Testament at Talbot School of Theology, Biola University.

Her research interests focus on the gospel's, more specifically, participation with Christ. Her newest book, Engaging Jesus with Our Senses, An Embodied Approach to the Gospels, published by Baker Academic, is the latest articulation of this. Outside of teaching at Biola, Jeannine Hanger has been married for 26 years to her husband, Garrick, a pastor at Coastline Covenant Church in Redondo Beach.

Together, they have three kids, ages 21, 19, and 17. So thanks for joining me today, Jeannine Hanger. It's great to have a fellow Biola pastor. Alumni and now you're a prof there. So yeah, it's great.

Jeannine Hanger: Thanks for having me. It's great to be. It's great to [00:01:00] connect with a fellow alum.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, no, I appreciate it. Um, you know, and was intrigued when I saw, I think your book being, you know, advertised.

I think your colleague Carmen, um, was, you know, publicizing it on Facebook and, uh, was really intrigued by it just because of this idea of how do we Engage Jesus in these Gospels, um, with our senses and as embodied people. Um, and so excited to have a conversation specifically around our sense of taste, just because of this, the notion of the biggest table.

Um, so what, what's the story behind the book? What led you to take on this project or what, how did you become involved in this idea?

Jeannine Hanger: Yeah, so, um, it actually probably extends back to, uh, searching for a topic for my doctoral studies. If I'm being honest, it goes all the way back to that. Knew I wanted to pursue doctoral studies, was interested in the Gospels.

I was also interested in this [00:02:00] idea of union or participation with Christ. I think just personally was interested in this idea of So we, there's all these scriptures that talk about being united with Christ, but what does that, what does that mean really? And um, especially, you know, we, we live in this world where there's very much seems absent even though we talk about a presence, it's a presence and absence that John talks about in them.

So I started looking for a topic in Paul's writings and then it kind of pushed me over to the Gospel of John, um, just through some reading. And, um, I connected with my doctoral supervisor and he was the one who suggested Grant McCastle. Um, he was the one who suggested checking out the I Am Sayings,

Andrew Camp: um,

Jeannine Hanger: the seven, you know, I am the bread of life, I am the light of the world, all, there are seven of those that John talks about.

And, um, as I spent time reflecting and studying and exploring them, uh, it stood out to me that they were very sensory metaphors. They were very [00:03:00] animated. metaphors that involve the senses. So tasting, eating the bread of life and seeing and staying near the light of the world and hearing the voice of the shepherd.

Um, and so I thought, well, I wonder if there's something there. So just to kind of explore that and, and that's really what led me to just thinking about embodiment and thinking about the senses. And so this book came out. As kind of an extension of that study of just, uh, how can we apply this to the gospels more broadly and also, how can we use this in our Bible reading?

Uh, you know, not just as an academic exercise, but something that actually. You know helps us to understand the text better or actually inspires us to want to engage the text more even so

Andrew Camp: right Yeah, because the idea isn't you know, it's to get away from a just a purely cognitive approach Yes, you know, but to really know jesus [00:04:00] um, and so how how have we even gotten to a point in society where our senses have been Divorced, you know, from our spiritual lives in some respects, because if I'm honest, being raised conservative, Christian, evangelical, like we were sometimes, um, weary of our senses, um, even the word sensual, like, you know, that's a taboo word, it seems.

And so, like, where did we go awry where we needed to be reminded of our senses as we engage the gospels and engage with Jesus?

Jeannine Hanger: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think. I mean, if you look at, um, uh, I mean, it goes back, you think about the enlightenment and post enlightenment world where it's this, uh, Descartes, I think, therefore I am.

And it, we, we started, I think, around that time to start to separate mind from body, you know, head and heart and, and even like in a hierarchy so that, [00:05:00] um, you're right. Like we started to focus more on the mind and kind of those cranial categories of, of Um, approaching the world, um, I, I think it also actually, as it connects to the senses, we tended to prioritize sight over the other types of senses because we live in a very sight centric world.

And so even, you know, the inventing of the printing press, uh, as it pertains to the scriptures, you know, you engage with scripture once, um, that happened and, you know, you engage the text with your eyes and you think about it in your mind. And so we started to. In some ways, divorce and even, um, you know, make inferior these, these, the sense of smell and sense of taste.

And like, it doesn't really figure into our Bible reading, right? And, um, and yet we, we are all embodied sensory beings who come to texts with our full bodies and our [00:06:00] hearts and our emotions. Um, so I think part of, part of what my project is doing is just calling out that we are embodied beings and not trying to divorce that from our reading.

Instead of saying like, I am, I am trying to be very objective here and you leave all that out. I mean, we're, we're kidding ourselves. We're actually leaving it out because everyone comes into our reading embodied. And so what does it look like to say. To be open about it. Like I, I am an embodied person with a history and memories and things that inform how I read it and it doesn't really mean I'm not saying that it takes the text in the direction that could be Anywhere, you know, and I think that's sometimes why the church is uncomfortable with this because you're worried that you know if you I talk a lot about imagination in my Approach to the text and we get a little nervous about imagination because we're talking about You Truth claims in scripture, and how can you talk about imagination, so.[00:07:00]

Yeah, I think we've just kind of somehow divorced these from each other and they really are meant. I mean, we are our minds are embodied. So,

Andrew Camp: yeah, no, um, yeah, because the stories we tell, um, you know, in the, as we, you know, Engage with things we, we recall memories and you bring that up and that, you know, even with talking about the bread of life, like, you know, smell, you know, taste is so associated with all the senses, you know, like you, you feel it, you, you smell it, you can hear it, you can, uh, you think about, you know, you see it and then you take like, you know, for me.

you know, when we eat something, we're engaging all of our senses. Um, but you know, when we think about food, we, we have vast memories, you know? And so when you say bread, my mom was a homemaker, she baked bread every week. So I have this vivid recollection of, of the fresh smell of bread, you know? And so how does, how [00:08:00] do those memories, you know, and they could be bad, You know, not always good memories.

They can be, you know, painful memories. How do that? How does that play then into how we engage the text?

Jeannine Hanger: Yeah, that's a great Um, it's a great observation and and I do spend some time thinking about that. Um Cause you're right, like I, I, I can relate to your, uh, connection with your memory of bread and your mom.

Like I grew up as, I'm a baker's daughter, so I grew up with like really strong feelings about really fresh bread. And, um, uh, so part of, part of what I'm suggesting is a reading of the text that it's like using your knowledge about taste. And, and bringing it alongside of your reading of the text. And so when you get to a text like, um, Jesus feeding the multitudes, uh, bread and fish, and then later on saying, I am the bread of life.

[00:09:00] Um, it's acknowledging that, um, the, the ancient readers who would first read these words, they are populating in their minds what they think of when they hear bread or when they hear, I'm the manna that came down from heaven. A lot of them, if they're Jewish and they know the Hebrew scriptures, they are aware of this context and it's, and it has to do with.

You know, the manna from heaven tradition and, you know, God raining down, uh, manna from heaven, heaven day by day. And, and not only, I mean, it's not like they're remembering that happening because they weren't, you know, they're not having a memory of that, but that might be attached to them, uh, to the ways that they celebrate and commemorate that in their traditions.

And so for them, there's certain memories that, um, come alongside of. The words, bread of life, manna from heaven. And so Jesus's words, when he comes in and says, I am the bread of life in a lot of ways, it's disruptive for them because they're thinking, well, this [00:10:00] is what I think when I hear manna from heaven.

And now you, you're saying that your manna from heaven, it's a really big statement. And so it, and it, and I think sometimes, uh, you know, we can think about how that's a big statement, but I think sometimes we've, you know, like you said, like it's bread is a very multisensory. Food is a multisensory experience.

You know, if any of us have ever felt what it feels like to be hungry, like, you know, in your gut, what it feels like to be hungry for bread and have, and think about Jesus saying, I'm the bread of life. Who sustains you? There's a different, there's a deeper kind of knowledge that we can bring into our understanding of the text, and we think about spiritual hunger, being spiritually satisfied, and how that connects with our physical feelings of, of those, you know, hunger and thirst and all that.

Andrew Camp: Right. And so then what role then does taste play in the Gospels from, you know, feasting to food and imagery is like, there's a lot, um, you know, there, [00:11:00] but for a brief summary for, for our listeners who may not be, you know, familiar, um, with the imagery, like, where does food and table and taste play into Jesus's, um, Um, life.

Jeannine Hanger: Yeah. So we see it. I mean, we see it anytime he sits down to have a meal and he does it a lot with people and with the least of these really? Mm-Hmm. . I mean, you see him sitting down to feasts with people that the religious leaders of his day are kind of criticizing him about. Like, how can you be eating with.

You know, sinners, you know, and anyone in their society who is, who is, uh, looked down upon and, um, Jesus is sitting side by side with them and he's sharing, he's breaking bread with them. And I think in the middle of that, I think part of what I'm trying to do is to Um, just add more descriptive level, understanding of the context is to invite people to put yourself in that context and [00:12:00] think about, you know, if you've ever had a really good tasting meal with all the smells and the, you know, and the, the tastes, but not just the taste, it's the people you're with and the people you share it with and the conversation and all of that.

I think that's. That's the kind of table that Jesus sits at with with his disciples and with do you see that throughout the gospels, right?

Andrew Camp: Right

Jeannine Hanger: So yeah, I mean that's just one example. Yeah, you know, there are more so

Andrew Camp: no and he's you know One of my favorite verses I think it's like Luke 7 34 where it says the Son of Man came eating and drinking, you know, and you call him a glutton and a drunkard You know, and so, you know, food and this taste idea plays a central aspect and you point out in the chapter, you know, this messianic feast idea that, you know, this table is expansive and always, you know, reaching out, um, you know, and how does then that, like, as we imagined sitting at that table, like what, what can we do, you know, to [00:13:00] move that from, you know, maybe a cognitive exercise to, to a more felt sensory exercise.

Jeannine Hanger: Yeah. I mean, I think we have, I think it gives us some creative opportunities to think about that. And I actually, at the end of each chapter, I, this, you know, the book is arranged according to five different physical senses. And so the one on taste I've provided three sensory exercises surrounding taste and eating that.

people can do to kind of engage with taste as they think about spiritual hunger and nourishment. And so I think, I mean, I think that there's a lot of opportunity to, I mean, you know, at the basic level, it's just taste and see that the Lord is good. It is appreciating with gratitude. You know, you're, you're, uh, a chef as, as I understand, right?

So, I mean, you probably have a great appreciation for the goodness of good food and [00:14:00] all the different tastes that God has created. And what does it look like not only to appreciate that on an individual level, but to share that around the table and all of the things that come with a good meal and how sitting at the table with people breaks down barriers a lot of the time.

And Creates friendship and creates unity in, in some ways that other ways of engagement don't, you know, like our distance way of, distanced way of interacting with people on social media, for example, is a very divisive means of interacting. But when you sit at a table with someone and you're sharing food, I think there's, there's something different.

That gets created.

Andrew Camp: No, for sure. You know, and that intimacy, that breaking down, um, the seeing of each other, you know, I always come back to Henri Nouwen's idea of hospitality from Reaching Out, you know, where it's this idea of hospitality allows the other to become who they were meant to [00:15:00] be. Um, you know, and, you know, taste is a very intimate, um, sense, you know, what we eat becomes literally part of us.

Um, you know, and it becomes absorbed into us, which I think is very. Deeply spiritual. And so like what, how, you know, cause you talk that, you know, your big project is this abiding in Christ. And so like, how does taste move us towards abiding?

Jeannine Hanger: Yeah, that's a great question. I don't know. I mean, the first thought that I have is just as I've compared the different senses, it's been interesting to notice.

That there's different levels of intimacy and you're right taste is the one that's probably the most intimate because you take it inside of you and it becomes part of you. Um, I think another one that's very similar is touch. Right? So, touch is something it's, you know, when I use the example [00:16:00] of like, kitten's fur, like you could talk about a kitten's fur.

You can, you can tell someone all about it. You can show them, but it's not until you actually pet the kitten that you know exactly what it feels like, right? So touch is a certain kind of knowledge and it's a certain kind of close up proximate knowledge that you can only get through touch. Whereas we live in a society where sight and hearing is probably the most dominant ways that we interact in the world.

And those are the most distanced. Right? Like.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Jeannine Hanger: Like you and I are conversing through sight and hearing. Right. Different states, you know. Yes. So there's, there's a lot you can say that's really, you know, personal to someone, but then there's other ways to communicate that, that makes it a lot more close up.

So when you go back to this conversation about abiding in Christ, I think I just kind of explored, every time Jesus said, I am the bread and we're, you know. in the metaphor to [00:17:00] believe is to eat.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Jeannine Hanger: And so it's a very intimate connection with Jesus, right? So to listen for the shepherd's voice is to stay near, but it's not quite as close as eating.

And when you get to the abiding metaphor, that was an interesting one, uh, because you're talking about a branch being fused to a vine. It's almost like garden imagery. And so there's There actually is nutrients being shared between the branch and the vine in a way that, um, it's pretty close up, you know, it's like, you're fused together and there's nutrients being shared.

So not necessarily taste, but it's kind of a nourishment that is, you know, when you think about union, that's as close as it gets.

Andrew Camp: Right. You know, and yeah, taking in this union and this Christ as we eat, you know, [00:18:00] I think our temptation then, you know, if we swing the pendulum too far as, you know, it's to eat and to become gluttonous.

Yeah. Um, but you know, if we're reminded of the manna, like God gave the Israelites just enough manna for the day, you know, like we're to pray for our daily bread, you know, not more, not less, you know. Um, but. So each one had enough, um, and so how do we, how do we balance that? Like, cause, you know, we all want more Jesus, but I think then we can become almost too gluttonous to, to use the appetite metaphor.

And so is there, is there a line then when, you know, as we think about Jesus and taste like that, you know, cause we've eaten great meals in which we've come away too full. Yeah. Um. And so is there a correlation then, as you've engaged with that, like with, with gluttony?

Jeannine Hanger: Yeah, that's a great question. I actually have not thought about gluttony in the way that you're saying, but I guess the, [00:19:00] the, the way that I've thought about it is, uh, when you think about, uh, you know, Our eating and drinking lives, you know, I liken it to like, you know, all of us have been to an all you can eat buffet and you like gorge yourself and then you come away and you're like, I am never eating again.

Andrew Camp: Right. Yeah.

Jeannine Hanger: And, um, but then what happens is the next day you're hungry again. So I've always, as I think about. this like union with Christ, our salvific life with Christ. I think I've likened it to our eating and drinking life. Like we need him every day, like the manna from heaven. And so I don't know if I've thought about it in terms of like how much is too much, but just that we need it regularly.

Like we need a regular diet of whatever that nourishment looks like for each person. Whether you want to talk about it in terms of, you know, rhythms that you establish in your life or what does that look like to be nourished every day? You know, in, in this life with Jesus. [00:20:00]

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Um, yeah, because that nourishment should propel us outward.

You know, I think part of the gluttony is it's all self serving versus, you know, this idea of. You know, being fed and nourished by Jesus should propel us and outward towards, towards others. Um, you know, and as, as we think, you know, cause the table in the gospels is presented in a very beautiful way, the messianic banquet, you know, it's this ideal that we don't quite see yet.

We get tastes of it. Um, and so how, you know, especially as Western Christians, white, you know, evangelical Christians, I've never, I've never known what it is to be without food, you know, so how does that, how does taste and, you know, this idea of Jesus as bread of life then propel us towards. The brokenness and the broken stories of, of food and broken tables, uh, that we see in the world.

Jeannine Hanger: [00:21:00] Boy, that's a great question.

I think, I think you're right. Like, I think we live in such a well satiated context, you know, that it's hard to know what hunger feels like. I, I think it's, I think it's helpful to get to know hunger a little bit, you know, uh, in fact, that was kind of how I ended up writing that chapter was I, I happened to be doing a fast and, um, and I talk about it in the book, I talk about how, like, I just, it, it led me to such a feeling of, um, not just hunger, but like a feeling of lack and it stripped me of all sense of internal resource.

Like, I just kind of lost all sense of internal fortitude, like. If something, if someone says something mean to me, I might cry because I'm so hungry and I felt so weak. You know, if someone attacks me, even with words or says something negative, I just remember having that embodied experience of feeling like very vulnerable.

And um, and I think that our [00:22:00] hunger puts us in touch with our vulnerability. And I just wonder if that would be an important way to connect with. Populations and people in our lives and either in our context or other context where there's a vulnerability, whether physically, spiritually, any kind of vulnerability, you know, when we can be in touch with vulnerability, how might that, uh, you know, give us the resource to have compassion for those who are vulnerable as well.

Andrew Camp: No, for sure. Yeah. I love that idea of the fast being a means of not just, you know, because we think of it as a personal spiritual exercise between me and Jesus. But, you know, how do we use the fast as a means of, um, engagement with the world? Uh, I think this could be super powerful. Um, because again, it, it, like you said, the senses are very individual, but they're also communal in nature that, [00:23:00] you know, we're not, you know, I can taste alone, but I'd never eat alone because the food was produced by somebody else.

Like we're all interconnected and, um, you know, and so how does, how do we balance then the individual and the communal and how do we bring in the communal as we engage a text, you know, in a very individualized Western society? Yeah.

Jeannine Hanger: Yeah. Are you asking me that?

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeannine Hanger: Okay. Like,

Andrew Camp: you

Jeannine Hanger: know, how, yeah. What, how, how do we

Andrew Camp: balance the individual and the communal with our senses?

Jeannine Hanger: Yeah. I mean, I think, um, actually it's interesting. I'm trying to, I'm, I'm kind of working on what, what is next. And I think that's actually my next question is how do we, how does this expand out? I'm going to talk about it a little bit, especially near the end of the book, talk about some communal, like, you know, the senses do play into our communal lives when you think about like.

You know how you how the senses operate in our corporate [00:24:00] world You know even like I you think about like the smells of incense in worship context You know that kind of sets the context for worship and sounds of certain songs kind of set You know, set the context for, you know, entering into a space of the sacred together in a corporate way.

And so, sorry, I'm, I've totally lost my train of thought to the question again.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, just, I think, you know, bringing this into the communal life and I'd be curious, you know, your husband's a pastor and so how does that, you know, how have you two start to like wrestle through, you know, it'd be fun to listen to you both talk, you know, hear you guys both talk about how does this.

Practically play out.

Jeannine Hanger: Yeah. Yeah. You know, yeah, I think what it what it what it does is it reminds us I think that there is a lot more that we can communicate in multisensory ways [00:25:00] that actually connects people more.

Andrew Camp: Um,

Jeannine Hanger: so when you're talking about even worship spaces, like anytime there's a chance to get up and move or to do something with your, you know, different senses, like tactile, like, you know, like, Using, you know, rocks when, you know, we've been in places like here, take this rock and this is a memorial stone of something, something, you know, like, um, every semester when I teach the gospel of John, when we get to John six and we're talking about taste, I always bring a big table full of bread and everyone takes some bread and we talk about bread and they have an experience of eating bread while we're talking about nourishment.

And the week that we cover, um. Mary anointing Jesus's feet with perfume. I bring in like a really strong lemon oil and I offer to paint it on everyone's hand and it just gives them like, Oh, I remember that smell. And that's going to remind me like, because the senses connect to our memories, I, I think there's some, some interesting experiments we can do with [00:26:00] creating memorable opportunities to connect with God and connect with each other.

Uh, in ways that just words, you know, words on a slide takes a note students, you know, like it just doesn't get across, uh, so yeah, I think it just taps into kind of the goodness of this fully embodied multisensory life that we

Andrew Camp: have. Now, as you were talking about, you know, John six and with your class, um, I'm curious what it looks like.

Cause I have this image of like using different types of bread from like store bought wonder bread, which has no flavor to a beautiful artisan, you know, home cooked fresh bread with sourdough starter that has this depth and rich and comparing the two and what does Jesus might mean, you know, and like,

Jeannine Hanger: yeah,

Andrew Camp: my imagination started going multiple places just cause I think you could.

You know, because we associate bread with maybe wonder bread, you know, which is not bread. Right, right, right. You know, versus, you know, what, you know, what is a true loaf of bread and that crackle and that smell? Like, yeah, I think there's, you know, to [00:27:00] compare and contrast and what does our society want versus, you know, what is Jesus actually offering and the difference.

Um, yeah, um, so no, like listeners, I encourage you if you're thinking about bread of life, you know, do a taste test of different breads just to, to compare and see, you know, and um, learn about commercial breads that. Um, you know, and I had Kendall Vanderslice who's a baker and she's has, you know, a new book coming out about baking and praying, you know, and using, um, so yeah, there's different ways to engage in this that I think more people are engaging with.

And so, um, yeah, listeners just encourage you to think through that bread of life, you know, and to take Jeannine Hanger's table metaphor and, you know, use it in your own life or with a small group as well. Um, And so then, yeah, like, but then we do think about our communal spot, and I think one of my big soapboxes has been our celebration of the Lord's table, because if Jesus is the bread of [00:28:00] life, like many times that bread is relegated to, to an afterthought or, you know, if we can squeeze it in, you know, and so like, how, how does the sense of taste then how can it expand our, our celebration of the Lord's table?

Jeannine Hanger: That's a great question. I would, I would love to experiment with that more in the church setting. I think, you know, like I grew up with a very, like, like it felt like an add-on at the end of the service with a tiny little cracker and it, there's not much taste to it. And, and in fact the first time I presented this in a, one of my student symposium, one of the professors was like, I don't understand how that's gonna be a good.

Project at all because manna from heaven. I don't think you know manna tasted that good like she was kind of like thinking through all of the, you know, I don't know when you think [00:29:00] about different types of bread and the kind of, um, you know, the bread celebrated in Passover, you know, was that really tasty bread, you know, how is that, you know, um, I wish that we made more of a big deal about the Lord's supper.

Like, I think it'd be so cool to. You know do an entire meal and it's a celebratory like more than just kind of a moment now So there are some like traditions where you know The Lord's Supper is celebrated every week and the service is somewhat revolves around that I don't happen to be in a tradition where we do that.

But we have experimented. We're kind of a newer church We have experimented with liturgy And so it actually does take on a little bit more of a communal, like we're all saying the same words as we're confessing sin. And as we're thinking about, that's what I have actually really loved is kind of this corporate, [00:30:00] um, you know, call and response as we get ready to take communion, which is not like I, um, I did most of my growing up years were in out of the, you know, individual, like just take it when you're ready kind of thing, which I, I find to be helpful for you know, you to kind of connect with God on your own, but, but at the same time that you miss some of that communal element, I know our church, every, we, we do it monthly.

And so it's the first of the month. And on the days that we do the communion, we have a taco truck outside, which is not really connected to community, but it happens to fall in communion Sunday. And so everyone goes out and enjoys lunch together on the patio afterwards, which is Which is really fun.

Everyone loves taco sundae, you know, so And it is connected to communion so it does in a lot of ways foster some community Which is which is cool,

Andrew Camp: you know, that is cool. [00:31:00] Um, you know, and as you've thought about other senses, you know We focused on taste on this podcast, but like as we focus on other senses, like what are other ways You know listeners individually or with a small group um, you know because they can't Most listeners won't have the ability to change church culture, you know, per se, but like, you know, how do we move this, you know, from an academic to, to the practical where it does help us abide with Christ more?

Jeannine Hanger: Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I think some of it is just, well, I don't, I mean, I think that there can be just some thoughtful approaches to how we engage in relationship with each other. You know, I think specifically, I think the one that's done the most. It's impactful to me is the study of the sense of touch, because touch is so powerful, uh, and people have such a variety of ways of [00:32:00] receiving touch in some really good and some even some negative ways, you know, you have to be so, because it's so potent, there are some people who are totally touch averse.

And so the best way to love them is actually not to touch them. And some people, I think they actually are more hungry for it. And so to hug them, you know, is something that really ministers to them to give a hug, but you have to kind of know, you have to be sensitive to know what's going to be the most, um, loving for someone, you know, I mean, we know like on, you know, at a very basic level, we know that like infants will not survive without nurturing touch.

And so on some level, everyone needs it, but then we go through life and for whatever reason, you know, A lot of us are, you know, you have these different, different, like I have one child who like will always take a back scratch. Like, you know, my kids are grown now, but always will take, if I scratch a back, my son will be like, [00:33:00] yeah, he'll like settle in.

But then I have one daughter who's like, don't touch me mom. Like she doesn't want, don't, she doesn't want it unless she, you know, she really needs it. And, and so I've just learned like how to connect with each of my kids in a way that communicates love to them. And I think it's a really powerful way. I think we're, it's just a, it's just something to be thoughtful about.

Are there ways that we can, um, communicate love to each other? Uh, you know, I think COVID was one of those that this is something I wrote some on. Um, COVID is one of those things that reversed our rules around touch, where, you know, like to, to love someone was to keep your distance for a period of time.

And that was exactly opposite. And, and then it had really negative effects on people because you're so isolated. And so to think about like what happens with the rules around touch, depending on the culture and the context, um, I think it's just important to, to be mindful of so [00:34:00] we can love each other better.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, I love that. You know, the, um, discernment it takes for touch, you know, and for the senses, like, you know, we don't all receive and experience the senses the same way. Um, and like you said, touch is one of those that can do great harm if not handled properly. And you know, you reference, um, you know, the body keeps the score, you know, and that trauma, we carry this trauma, you know, and trauma, you know, a lot of it is associated with our senses.

And so Um, to be mindful of that, um, you know, and then just people with different sensory divergent experiences of life. Like there's just so much wrapped up in our senses that we have to, you know, be aware of to help people. Um, you know, and I appreciate you, you bringing that into the discussion just cause it can be so easy to think of like, okay, well I experienced it this way, therefore it's the same for everybody.

But yeah, Um, you point out even that cultural [00:35:00] differences between senses and, um, that it's not just this one, you know, one size fits all, , approach. As we begin, um, to wrap up, it's a question I ask all of my guests.

And so, um, what's the story you want the church to tell?

Jeannine Hanger: Hmm.

That's a great question.

What's the story? I want, um, I so want the church to be a place that loves well, and, uh, I, I get sad that we are, I, I think our, our radical individualism works completely at cross purposes with what the church is meant to do.

You know, I think that one of the. One of the key insights about, uh, what I've learned in this is this idea that dependence is the [00:36:00] goal with Christ. Our union with Christ is, it's like we're not meant to outgrow our need for him. And yet we live in a context where we raise our kids to become autonomous, independent beings so we can support themselves, you know, like that's the goal.

And, you know, but, but when you think about the sheep and the shepherd, the sheep never outgrow their, their need for a shepherd. They always need the sheep. And I want, I want more people in the church to see dependence on Christ and each other as actually the way that the church is supposed to operate.

And, um, I get sad that, um, you know, in our own context, like I just, how can we How can we be the church if nobody needs anything from each other, you know, you end up, we become consumers and, uh, that makes me sad because it's, it's so much bigger and more robust than [00:37:00] that. And I think that's what we have to offer people who are hungry, like truly spiritually hungry, but um, You know, I just worry that we lose our sense of hunger and need and you know, this we're so I'm good.

I'm good I don't want to put you out, you know, so I'm fine. I don't need prayers or anything I'm you know, like that kind of thing

Andrew Camp: You

Jeannine Hanger: know, I want so much more for the church to really embody this Body of Christ that yeah that we're designed to be

Andrew Camp: Hmm. I love that. I love each guest's unique perspective when they answer that question and you know, this dependence aspect.

Um, I love that and hope you as a listener caught that too and can meditate and think through, spend time just engaging with that question of, are you, where is your dependency factor currently? And, um, you know, I think it's an important question for our culture. [00:38:00] Um, today. Yeah. Cause like you said, we want to raise independent creatures.

We want to think we're independent, but, um, what I always come back to is you can never eat independently. Like, you know, your food is, is comes from someplace and somewhere and someone, um, you know, and I think that's a beautiful illustration of our dependency, you know, of God and his abundance in giving us a super abundant creation full of delight and wonder, um, that he calls us to depend on.

Amen. Um,

Jeannine Hanger: yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Um, and then some fun questions, um, I always ask too, um, what's one food you refuse to eat?

Jeannine Hanger: Oh. Let me think. There's actually probably more than one. Fair. Um, I, I actually, I, I. I tried for a while to do seafood and I just, I'm not a seafood person.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

Jeannine Hanger: Um, I, I don't refuse, uh, that I don't, [00:39:00] I, I tried for a long time and I just can't, there's something about maybe the texture or, I don't

Andrew Camp: know.

Fair enough. I

Jeannine Hanger: wish I liked it more because there's so many, there's so many dishes that I like that sound really good.

Andrew Camp: For sure. And you live, you know, near the ocean, you're, you know. I

Jeannine Hanger: know. I know. Maybe I should try again.

Andrew Camp: It's all good. No, I understand. It's yeah. And then on the other side of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Jeannine Hanger: I think any form of bread and cheese.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

Jeannine Hanger: I can get on board with bread, you know, like anything bread, bread. I think bread is probably one of my favorites. And then I think, um, there's a chocolate souffle that I've got at a couple different places that that would be like my, my favorite

Andrew Camp: thing to eat. No.

Awesome. Do you have a favorite type of cheese?

Jeannine Hanger: No. Okay. I like all kinds of cheese. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Yep. No, I understand. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. My wife and I love cheese and meat night. You know, just to do charcuterie. Yeah. My [00:40:00] first job in the restaurant was as a fromage as a cheese guy. And so. growing. What's

Jeannine Hanger: your favorite cheese?

Andrew Camp: I like stinky cheeses. Like, I like, you know, like the French Eppoisses is sort of the king of all cheeses. Um, but it's just a stinky, runny cheese. You know, I think, um, yeah, there's something about it, just that unctuous umami flavor. Um, you know, that the taste belies its stench, you know?

Jeannine Hanger: Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Um, and so, yeah, there's some other American cheeses that do well too with that, but French.

Jeannine Hanger: That's your French stinky

Andrew Camp: cheeses are good.

Jeannine Hanger: Okay. Okay.

Andrew Camp: Um, and then finally there's a conversation amongst chefs about last meals as if, if you knew you had one last meal to enjoy, what would it be? And so Jeannine Hanger, if you had one last meal, what might be on that table?

Jeannine Hanger: Listen, Andrew, I hope that I don't disappoint you with this answer.

Cause I think you're [00:41:00] probably a very fancy. Yeah. Food person?

Andrew Camp: No, no. Not

Jeannine Hanger: very fancy .

Andrew Camp: It's okay.

Jeannine Hanger: Um, I love me. A good cheeseburger.

Andrew Camp: Awesome.

Jeannine Hanger: That's like my favorite Go-to,

Andrew Camp: yeah. Do you have a favorite, fancy or

Jeannine Hanger: not, but yeah.

Andrew Camp: Do you have a favorite place in Southern California for your cheeseburger?

Jeannine Hanger: No, not really. I'm not really. I mean, I just like, I like a good cheeseburger anywhere. I mean, I probably should say In N Out because that's, you know, like the birthplace of the cheeseburger. It's actually, it's probably not my favorite, but it's probably one I have a lot of.

Andrew Camp: For sure.

Jeannine Hanger: Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, you're not the first person.

Richard Beck, you know, who's a professor of psychology at Abilene Christian University. His last meal was a burger and a chocolate malt.

Jeannine Hanger: Oh, nice. Okay. So, you know,

Andrew Camp: you're not alone.

Jeannine Hanger: I'm in. Okay. That's good to know. You're

Andrew Camp: in great company. I think the world of Richard Beck and,

Jeannine Hanger: uh,

Andrew Camp: you know, his, his ideas of hospitality and have really informed me.

So [00:42:00] yeah, no cheeseburger, a good burger, I think is really hard to beat in life. Like, no, so I'm with you at cheeseburger. Yeah. Well, thank you, Jeannine Hanger. This has been really fun. If people want to learn, you know, more about your work, is there a place they can connect? Obviously your book is available on Amazon or wherever they get their books, but is there another place people can continue to see what you're up to or?

Jeannine Hanger: Uh, no, I'm not super, I don't have like a website or anything like that, but I mean, I'm out on social, so, you know, I have an Instagram and it's public, so people can follow me there. I, I don't post a lot. I'm not like a super big poster, but yeah, I mean, you know, Biola website usually will have my most up to date publications and what, and yeah, this book is mine, available wherever.

Yep. So.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, no, I would strongly encourage you listeners. Yeah, uh, get the book. It's a great resource to help you begin to think through what does it mean to really engage the scriptures as a full bodied person [00:43:00] and not just cognitively. So thank you, Jeannine Hanger, for your ministry to the church and to the body of Christ.

And I really appreciated this conversation and the opportunity to connect.

Jeannine Hanger: Thanks, Andrew. It's been really great to talk to you.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, so if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or sharing it with others. Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food.

Until next time, bye.