The Biggest Table

Episode 25 (Derek Vreeland)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.

And today, I'm thrilled to be joined by Derek Vreeland.

A little bit about Derek, he is the discipleship pastor at Word of Life Church in St. Joseph, Missouri, where he is known for his thoughtful, humorous, and authentic teaching style. He is the host of the Peaceable and Kind podcast. He is also the author of two books, By the Way and Centering Jesus. Derek enjoys reading, running, hiking, and rooting for the Kansas City Chiefs. He and his wife, Jenny, have three sons, one daughter in law, and two grandsons.

So thanks for joining me today, Derek, and I'm sure you're happy that football is back.

Derek Vreeland: Andrew, thank you for having me. And yes, right here on my desk is my bobblehead, Patrick Mahomes. And I love [00:01:00] fall in particular because that means football is back and I'm happy.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. Um, so as we get going, I'm, I'm curious, um, as sort of an introduction question, what drew you into ministry to start with?

Derek Vreeland: Oh, ministry, I, um, I had a pretty dramatic call into ministry when I was 16 years old. Dramatic in the sense that it was a very deeply impactful. spiritual experience. And it's interesting over the years as I've talked to young people who are discerning the call into ministry, my response to them is always, can you do anything else?

I mean, can, can you imagine doing anything else with your time? If the answer is yes, then go do that. Um, I think that there is a sense in which, um, we, you know, [00:02:00] Abandoned ourselves to the call. I think, um, it's Ruth Haley Barton who talks about this, uh, this sort of prayer of abandonment, uh, where it's like, Lord, um, I just, I abandoned myself to, everything, um, so that I can kind of hit the bottom and know what you want me to do.

So I was 16 years old. I was in a Southern Baptist church, um, to make the events of my call to ministry more dramatic. It's important to know this was a Baptist church that was fairly cessationist. Did not believe in the gifts that the spirit would openly, um, criticize, uh, the Pentecostal charismatic tradition.

I didn't know any of that. I was young in the faith, 16 years old, and I went to a Bible study, um, on a Monday night led by our youth pastor. And he led us through that [00:03:00] portion of scripture at the end of John's gospel that describes, uh, Jesus and Peter, um, having breakfast together. It's Peter's restoration and, you know, do you love me three times and our youth pastor was talking about, um, the.

Nuances in that text between, uh, phileo love and agape love. So that was in my mind. I go home that night and I'm trying to sleep and I'm just wrestling with this idea of agape love, uh, the love, which is God, the love that God has for us. And I thought, I want to pray. So I, I kicked my legs, um, out from underneath the covers.

And, uh, with my feet on the ground, I'm st sitting on the edge of the bed and it's, I don't know, close to midnight and I'm praying. And, um, I remember at one point in the prayer saying, God, I love you more than [00:04:00] anything. I love you with an agape love. And when I, when I uttered that, it felt like I lost all the strength in my body and I kind of slid off the bed onto the floor, the little spot, uh, of, of carpet in between the bed and the wall, uh, just enough where you could put an end table.

Right. So that little, little area, I, I just, I fell to my knees and, um, I felt like I was spinning. Um, and I, I then would have said that I, I heard the Lord say the word ministry, you know, with 30 years of reflection on that experience. Well, maybe it was a thought in my head, but I was, I really thought that that was, that was God speaking to me.

I sat back up on my bed and, uh, sort of felt like it was no longer spinning. And when I sat back up on the bed, it just felt like [00:05:00] gallons of water were just rushing over my head. And, um, as a good Baptist, I grabbed, uh, my Bible, which was on the nightstand. And I said, Lord, you gotta, you gotta show me scripture.

This is, uh, this is you. Um, give me a verse and I did what I always tell people not to do and that is I just flipped open the Bible and pointed to a verse which, which only works once in a lifetime and the verse that my finger landed on was acts one eight and you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you will be my witnesses.

And I reasoned, well, that was a power of the Holy Spirit experience. And God's calling me to be his witness, uh, in full time ministry. And so at that moment I said, uh, yes. To a full time vocational ministry [00:06:00] and the, the hunger, the desire, and the call to serve God's church hasn't diminished, uh, after all these years.

Andrew Camp: So looking back then 30 years, as you, you know, take stock of what you've learned both personally experientially and, you know, walking with other people, like what, what have you noticed as a discipleship pastor for both good and bad?

Derek Vreeland: Well, following Jesus has always been difficult. It's, you know, through many, um, difficulties that we enter into the kingdom of God.

Um, it's a narrow way, it's a constricted way. I mean, broad is the path and way that leads to destruction, but narrow is the way to life. It's always been hard. Um, it, it feels like it is increasingly hard these days. Now I said 30 because I'm not a numbers guy, but then when you said it back to me, I just turned 50.

So if I [00:07:00] do do that, Matt, that was 34 years ago. So 34 years of, of walking with Jesus, with this pastoral call. And as a teenager, I was Teaching junior high Sunday school as a Bible studies on my school campus. I, uh, my, my, my girlfriend who later became my wife and I even led a prayer meeting every morning before school started, um, in one of our science teachers, classrooms, uh, which I thought was kind of ironic.

So yeah, for 34 years, I've, I've been doing the work as a pastor and it feels these days it's gotten harder. Um, I have lived long enough to see the floodwaters of secularism, uh, rise. And I would say the full flourishing of individualism, I mean, you know, we're, the United States is a product of, [00:08:00] of the enlightenment.

And so that's been around for hundreds and hundreds of years. I, I, I don't necessarily think we're in a postmodern culture. I still think this is the late stages of modernity. Um, but that just. Uh, uh, impulse towards individualism, and then also I would say the, the rise of white Christian nationalism. I see those three.

Secularism, individualism, and nationalism, which forms a nice acrostic sin. I think those three challenges, um, in our age make it more difficult, uh, to be an authentic follower of Jesus. And because of the rise of technology, uh, people who are wooed into non denominational Evangelical, charismatic ish churches, which has always been my background in the non denominational world.

Those who have been lured by [00:09:00] consumerism, they can receive all their religious goods and services via technology. And so, uh, the church and this embodied following Jesus together is almost unnecessary. So lots of challenges. And so it's, it's difficult, it's difficult to be an authentic disciple of Jesus today.

Andrew Camp: No, for sure. Um, which when we were talking about this, you mentioned the Lord's Supper and you made the statement that I loved. Um, and where I want to spend the bulk of our time is that you, you said that communion, the Lord's table, whatever word we want to use, um, it's not only the heart of worship, but it's the heart of discipleship.

Um, one, I'd love to hear your thoughts on how these discipleship. is impacted, or how the Lord's Supper impacts these three great, you know, rising tides that we're seeing. But can you sort of unpack first sort of the heart of what you mean by that statement?

Derek Vreeland: Well, I don't know if you want the [00:10:00] long answer or the short answer, because I, my impulse is to give you the long answer.

Andrew Camp: Let's start with the short answer. We can always unpack more.

Derek Vreeland: Well, I think the heart of discipleship is following Jesus and being formed by Jesus. So that we might walk in the ways of Jesus and that, that following is a relational following. So discipleship is about a relational following. It's not simply being a student in a classroom and Jesus, um, speaks about we abiding in him and him abiding in us.

And so there's ways in which. Christians historically have talked about that, that abiding, living relationship between Jesus and His church, and, uh, the Lord's Supper, Communion, the Eucharist, seems to me to [00:11:00] be the clearest point of communion and connection and abiding with Jesus. And so if we're going to follow Jesus in this sort of lived relationship with Jesus and be formed in the ways of Jesus, uh, for me, I think, uh, the table is the very center of that because everything Everything that we need, and that's maybe overstating my case, but the roots of everything that we need is at the table.

When we come to the table, we make a confession of faith. We make a confession of sin. And I know different churches have different traditions, but usually any kind of church there is a time of preparation before coming to the Lord's table. So there's, and in our tradition, which we're non denominational, but we draw from a lot of Anglican liturgies, we have, we both recite the [00:12:00] Apostles Creed, making a confession of faith.

and a prayer of confession together. Um, and then I have a little habit because I'm always serving communion that when I get in the line to receive the Lord's supper, um, and currently we're doing that before we serve. Um, I have this little habit of, of praying the Jesus prayer just very quietly, uh, Lord Jesus Christ, son of God have mercy on me.

And so there's that moment of confession and there we are proclaiming the Lord's death. Paul says, I want to know nothing. Among you, but Christ crucified. Jesus said in following me you take up your cross and in a very experiential way We're doing that at the Lord's table again different churches have different traditions and how they receive the elements But yes, so much of the roots of Christian discipleship all take place at the table

Andrew Camp: And yet, you and I have been raised and formed in a culture that [00:13:00] promotes word over all else.

You know, I think, you know, we, many, if not explicitly, implicitly, our church habits would say that the preaching of the word would the heart of discipleship. And I don't, I think that, you know, you and I would both agree the preaching of the Word is important, but you would say, and I would agree, that like something happens more at the table that is different than the preaching of the Word, and yet we minimize the table over the Word.

So what, What does the table accomplish that the preaching of the word can't?

Derek Vreeland: Oh, so good. So good. I'm so glad you asked that question. Yeah. My background being Southern Baptist and then being charismatic and then being whatever I am today, sort of a theological mutt. Um, I'm sort of like one part Anglican, one part Anabaptist, one part Wesleyan, one part Pentecostal, [00:14:00] one part Orthodox.

I got the strange mixture. Um, but yeah, certainly in how I was raised in the faith and the Southern Baptist in the non denominational charismatic world, the emphasis was the preaching of the word, um, which is sad because there is this greater, Ecclesiological tradition within Protestantism of word and sacrament and, you know, the Baptists, you know, are proud of being, um, not sacramental, but memorialist when it comes to the Lord's table.

So it's a memorial meal. You are remembering what Christ has done for you, which I agree at the Lord's table. There is a moment of remembrance. But the preaching of the word, um, is, and yes, I do agree, absolutely necessary. Um, I believe in the foolishness of preaching as both a preacher and as a Bible teacher.

Um, [00:15:00] that is primarily, an intellectual exercise, um, which again, I don't want that to come across as a negative, uh, but preaching really engages the intellect. Um, and I, and I don't want to sound like I am underselling that because it's necessary. I mean, uh, Mark Knoll, um, um, prophesied, you know, the scandal of the evangelical mind.

There's not really one. Left and that's only gotten worse the dumbing down of of our culture and the dumbing down of of evangelicalism broadly is Problematic and so to engage the the intellect is good and and really good preaching not only engages the intellect But does reach the heart. Yeah, it does it does move us in a certain way And one of the values of the [00:16:00] evangelical tradition, um, as well as like the Wesleyan holiness tradition is the need for heart intentionality.

Um, so all of that is good, but that is not the same as, you know, Meeting Jesus at the table. Now, again, I am sacramental in my understanding. So for my brothers and sisters who are more memorialists, they're, they're, they're probably not going to agree with me theologically, but I've always challenged my Baptist friends.

experientially, um, because how many, uh, devoted followers of Jesus would say, I'm not sacramental. Um, I just, we do this in remembrance of him. We'll testify of a time they celebrated the Lord's supper and they were moved emotionally, or they felt broken over their sin, or they felt this nearness and closeness.[00:17:00]

Um, my, my dad, uh, still, uh, worships in a, in a Baptist church. And I remember the first time he had come to our church and we practice communion by intinction. Um, so there's bread, which has already been broken. It's actually kind of cut. Uh, but we talked about the bread, which is broken and we dip in a cup.

And I remember talking to my dad, um, You know, about his experience of communion. And, and he did, he did enjoy it. And, uh, he said, yeah, I kind of wish we would do communion more often in our church. We only do a quarterly or maybe less than that. And he said, and every time I come to the, the Lord's table, I am just so moved emotionally.

Like my heart is just broken. And I, I feel so close to God. And I said, Exactly, right? So he may not theologically agree with me in terms of the sacrament that happens at the table, but experientially, there is an experience at the table that cannot [00:18:00] be reduplicated in any other way. And so, there, to me, there is this real spiritual.

with Jesus and it's a spiritual connection that is body and soul. Um, it's an embodied experience. Um, our intellect is alert and aware and the way we practice communion. Um, you'll hear someone say the body of Christ broken for you, the blood of Christ shed for you. You can see the elements. And I think the seeing is where the symbols, symbols, Of, of the juice or wine in the cup and the broken bed bread, you see those things and especially the cup is a, is a visible reminder.

Of the blood of Jesus. So you hear the words, you see, you can smell. And we use grape juice, which is kind of sweet. And we use a sweet, kind of, um, gluten-free bread in our congregation. So you can [00:19:00] smell, uh, the sweetness. Um, then you touch the bread and you dip in the cup. And then you, you, you taste and see, um, and so it is a full bodied experience as well as our hearts, our souls communing with Jesus.

And that simply cannot be reproduced anywhere else. And certainly not, um, in the preaching of the word.

Andrew Camp: You know, and as you're talking about the embodied, you're also, you know, bumping up against other people, you're in a communion of saints, you know, we who are many are part, you know, because there's one love, we are, you know, um, we who are many are one, um, you know, and so it's that remembering, you know, not only of Jesus, but that re membering of us as humanity and shared humanity, You know, as, as not only we receive it, but as we're jostling in line and there's that awkward, like, oh, no, you go, I go, [00:20:00] like, you have to learn how to do life together, not, you know, um, you can't give yourself communion, uh, you know, and, and so I think, you know, what, as you've reflected on that, how does community play a role?

Out in communion for you.

Derek Vreeland: Oh yeah. All the little bumping into people. Um, actually my wife and I were serving communion this last Sunday and we were trying to make our way back to the seat, our seats. Uh, but we were serving on a far end and our section finished before the other sections. And yeah, we're trying to figure out the best path and yeah, we are literally bumping into people, oops, stop, wait, you see someone, you know, touch them on the shoulder, give somebody a hug and you weave your way back.

Um, but yeah, I'm very particular in that I, I will not. Take communion. I think our language around communion and all forms of liturgy and worship are important and I never take [00:21:00] communion I never serve myself communion. I I will I will not partake Unless it has been served to me because I believe communion is something that we we receive.

Yeah And it's been wonderful because in our church, we, um, we're not clerical in the sense that you have to be an ordained person to serve communion. And so there'll be people serving me communion, um, who have gone through cancer, um, or have gone through other life difficulties and they've experienced God's redemption.

And to, to look them in the eyes, you know, when they say to me. The body of Christ broken and the blood of Christ shed for you, um, as a pastor, that's a very meaningful moment, um, because we want to employ, um, you know, everyday church members as eucharistic ministers. That's the title for [00:22:00] some church. Uh, we, we, we just usually just say communion servers, but.

Um, that it's just the average, average, ordinary church member, um, who, who, who serves the body and blood of Christ. Um, uh, that communal, uh, moment is, is beautiful, but yes, it is something that we, we, we do together, which is why we like intinction, um, over the little plastic cups. Um, Can you

Andrew Camp: explain for listeners and people who might not know what intinction is?

Derek Vreeland: Yes, so intinction, um, is, uh, receiving bread either on a loaf or that's already broken into pieces and then dipping, um, into a cup. Now we, because our church is large, we have multiple sections, so your section is going to share a cup. Um, which, uh, granted, uh, can, if you're a germaphobe, can, can, can kind of gross you out.

And I understand [00:23:00] because some people, um, they'll hold just the, the, the, the very end of that piece of bread and then Barely just get an edge of the piece of bread into the cup and get a little juice and then eat other people. They plunge their fingers into that cup. And I try not to think about that, but, but that's a part of the, the sort of, um, messiness of, um, of this community.

Uh, experience. And so you do have to kind of get over that. We do lower the lights a little bit during, uh, communion. So hopefully people aren't noticing that, but yes, intention is, uh, uh, dipping, um, where, um, in the Baptist church growing up as a teenager, when we did receive the Lord's supper, it'd be in the little plastic cups.

And I understand, uh, it's quick and expedient. Um, but again, I think not only our words matter in our liturgies, But our symbols, what does it symbolize? [00:24:00] And a, as you said, a common cup, one cup that we all share to me as a much more powerful symbol about the nature of the church, rather than each individual taking their, um, little cup back to their seat and just.

You know, doing things together. So to make it a communal experience, as I said earlier, we recite the apostles creed together, we pray a liturgical prayer of confession together. We all receive absolution of our sins together. And yes, there is an individual walking down, um, to the front, to where the communion servers are.

Um, but even that is something that we're, we're doing together.

Andrew Camp: Right. Yeah. Cause I was looking over, um, Alexander Shimomon's book, um, for the life of the world, which I'm going to guess you're familiar with him. Um, because he, I love his definition of [00:25:00] liturgy. He says it's an action by which a group of people become something corporately, which they had not been as a mere collection of individuals.

Derek Vreeland: Yes. So good. Yeah. We're, we're sometimes put off by the word liturgy. Um, um, we don't need to be because I've never attended a Quaker service. Um, but outside of those traditions, um, just about every church I've been a part of has a, well in the Baptist church, we called it an order of service. Sometimes it's printed, sometimes it's not, but even contemporary non denominational churches will have, um, I just spoke at a church in Michigan and went to their pre service meeting and they printed out of planning center, um, not only the order of service, but time stamps, like how long each thing.

So even contemporary churches have a, a liturgy. I like to think of liturgy as simply the form and the shape. Of our [00:26:00] worship and prayers and every church has a liturgy Um, I just think that we should be intentional About both the language and the symbols that are used in our liturgy

Andrew Camp: for sure And so as then we think about this corporate shaping, um as people receive communion, how then does this?

Make itself known In the rest of our lives as we go home as we go into our neighborhoods as we go into our workplaces Like what does the lord's table do to us? You Um, as we enter the world as God's ambassadors.

Derek Vreeland: Well, the, the, the term, um, body of Christ, um, is used differently, uh, both in scripture and in the great Christian tradition.

So the body of Christ is first Jesus, real flesh and blood, now glorified body. There is a, [00:27:00] a, a, a real physical. body of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, uh, now ascended to the right hand of the Father. So that Jesus is embodied. There is a body. Um, and then the church is called the body of Christ. In the sense that we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and so we, not as individuals, it would be a heresy to say, I am the body of Christ.

Um, but we collectively are the body of Christ. And then it's also right to say that the bread. Of communion is the body of Christ. And so one of the ways we think about it, and sometimes in preparing for communion, we'll even say it is that we is the body of Christ. are sustained, um, by the body, which is the bread in order to [00:28:00] follow the living Christ in our neighborhoods and schools and workplaces.

And so it's when the body of Christ, the church feeds on the Eucharistic body of Christ on the bread, that then we become sustained, um, in our lives of, uh, working and playing, um, wherever we find ourselves at school, at work, in our neighborhoods as living reminders and as living stones that are, that are pointing people back to Jesus.

And so we worship on Sundays, which isn't the end of the week, but it's the first day of the week. And so before we start our vocational work week on a Monday, we come together in worship. Sometimes when I do the benediction, I often will say, we have come together, gathered around word and sacrament, that we now can be scattered.[00:29:00]

Into our schools and workplaces and neighborhoods. And so we come together on the first day of the week, uh, for worship, for prayer, for scripture, um, for communion. And so it's, it's the practice of communion on the first day of the week that nourishes us spiritually, then to go into our vocational work week as the body of Christ, as examples of Christ, wherever we go.

Andrew Camp: No, that's great. Um, and so then to return back to what you said earlier about sort of these three challenges, um, which, you know, great, easily form the sin acronym of secularism, individualism, and then, um, Christian nationalism, like how, because nobody would disagree with these rising tides and rising challenges.

So then how can we structure and come to experience the Lord's table as. Combating these are helping, [00:30:00] you know, um, reorient us towards God's peace of our Jesus is peaceable kingdom versus, um, the ways of the world.

Derek Vreeland: Well, I mean, the Lord's table is maybe the least secular thing I do all week. Um, if we want to contrast, sacredness with secularism.

There's nothing more special and sacred than the Lord's table. Now I should say, because I'm sure someone is thinking this, well, if we celebrate the Lord's supper every Sunday, won't it lose its specialness or its sacredness to which I say it can. Um, but you have to put the intention intentionality into every day.

liturgical act in preparing and celebrating the Lord's Supper. You have to put your heart into it. Uh, Will Willimon said, um, what was asked one time, uh, [00:31:00] he was a United Methodist, uh, Bishop, uh, written a number of books and Will Willimon was asked, um, how often we should celebrate the Lord's Supper. And he said, well, we should celebrate the Lord's Supper as often as, uh, we tell our spouses, I love you.

And, um, which is, which is very, very good because again, going on, uh, going headed towards 30 years of marriage. I tell my wife I love her multiple times a day. Yes. Sometimes it's just that response at the end of a phone call and I love you. Bye. Um, but I, if I want to maintain a healthy marriage, I've put some intentionality into those expressions of, I love you.

And so, um, So it's good to note that. But if, if secularism is like a flood, and I think it's a great analogy, and if those flood waters are rising, how high is the water mama? [00:32:00] Five foot high and rising. There's your Johnny Cash lyric for the podcast.

Andrew Camp: Nice.

Derek Vreeland: Um, so if, if the flood waters of secularism are rising, Then we need buoyancy.

We need life preservers that will cause us to rise above those flood waters. And I'm convinced that the regular practice of communion is one of those ways, because it is such a sacred act. Again, we have to put intentionality into it. Never want to set that aside. Uh, but the table is set and if we come to it with the right attitude, I think for secularism, it keeps us in that, in that sacred world.

It also keeps us in that mysterious world, you know, sacraments are these sacred commandments and they're also sacred mysteries.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Derek Vreeland: Um, I don't [00:33:00] know how. Eating that bread and drinking from that cup connects me with Jesus. You know, people will, you know, want me to go further. And often when people hear about the sacramental nature of communion, they'll say, oh, is that transubstantiation?

And, and I think for our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, they're just trying to explain too much of a mystery. And so I don't explain it. I don't know how it connects me with Jesus, but I'll testify that it does and it has on a regular basis. So I think of all the life preservers we can cling to during this growing secular age, uh, the regular practice of coming to the Lord's table is number one.

Um, and for the individuality, I think. Not only the communal nature of the practice of communion helps us to defeat individualism, but to me there's a dying to self every time I come to the [00:34:00] table. For me personally, Self sufficiency is my besetting sin. And I don't think I'm the only one. Um, you know, the rugged individualism that is in our culture has infected so many of us.

It's gotten so bad that in my morning prayer time before I start morning prayer, I offer three confessions. And what I'll do is I'll take a deep breath. And I'll exhale and then I'll make a confession and do that three times. The second confession that I make, so I breathe in, exhale. I confess just right out loud in the Lord's presence.

I say, I am a dependent creature. I can't do life on my own. I need other people. Um, and so. For me, the practice of Holy Communion is a dying to self sufficiency, uh, because as I [00:35:00] confess my sin, as I reflect, um, as I pray again, the Jesus prayer, Lord Jesus Christ and of God have mercy on me. My experience is that's a dying to that self sufficiency.

I'm dying to that individualism. I'm dying to that. Uh, lie in our culture that you can just pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Um, so in coming to the table, I acknowledge that I, I need the Lord's, uh, pardon. I need the Lord's mercy and mercy. Cause we, when we pray the Jesus prayer, uh, the request for mercy isn't always a prayer of forgiveness though.

Sometimes it's that. Um, when I pray and I pray it multiple times throughout the day, when I'll say Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me. That request for mercy is really just a request for help. Right. Um, because I recognize I'm a dependent creature. I recognize that I don't have it all figured out [00:36:00] that I can't do life on my own, that I first and foremost need.

God's presence. God's guidance. I need the teachings of Jesus. I need help. And so for me, the experience of the Lord's table, um, uh, really helps to defeat that self sufficiency within me. Um, and then as far as nationalism, I, I define nationalism as an elevation of one's love for the political nation state that they lived in.

I, I know that the, the term Christian nationalism, white Christian nationalism, or just nationalism, I know that that is hotly debated, very controversial. So, I'm going to do what my, my senior, um, when I was in high school, uh, my senior year, our government teacher said, when you go to write a term paper, the first thing you do is define the pertinent terms.

So nationalism for [00:37:00] me is an acknowledgement of, um, The superiority of one's nation state. So, it's not the same thing as patriotism. I think patriotism in the sense that you love the place you're born. You, uh, see the value. Um, and, and, and, The, the place where you come from, uh, that of course I think is good and, uh, and can be very holy.

I mean, patriotism can go off the rails as well, but nationalism is the elevation of the nation state to an idol. And this is why Christians get upset when we start poking at nationalism because whenever Christians have a real visceral reaction towards any kind of prophetic critique, I'm always like. Be careful because I might be brushing up against your idol.

Um, so if, if in the church we started talking about money, um, well, not just stewardship, that's [00:38:00] a kind way to talk about, but we start talking about the economy and how we collectively should, should, should use our wealth. I mean, people get really nervous and they'll push back. Because the economy is one of the idols.

So nationalism becomes an idol when it has ultimate devotion.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Derek Vreeland: And I love the little story that Jesus, um, uh, it's not a story, but I like the little bit of teaching where Jesus says, if you want to be my followers, you have to hate your mom and dad.

Andrew Camp: Um,

Derek Vreeland: I don't have my Bible in front of me. I'm guessing Luke 13, but it's in the gospels.

It's in there somewhere. He makes this provocative statement. If you want to be my followers, you have to hate your mom and dad. And I wonder if focus on the family knows that verse is in the Bible because that would kind of, uh, put a, put a dart and everything they're doing, but Jesus, there's being provocative.

And of course he is not encouraging us to break the [00:39:00] 10 commandments to break, you know, this, this law to honor a father and mother. He's just saying that you have to subjugate your love for family. below your love for God and and in the first century Jewish world, just like in the modern world, family can become an idol, family identity, family connection.

Um, it's good and there's a love for family, but it's a subordinate kind of love. So I think. For nationalism, nationalism is where you've taken a subordinate love of the nation state you're in, and you raise that above your love for God. And so for me, the table becomes a way just to put a dagger in the heart of nationalism.

Because in the celebration of the Lord's Supper, in the proclaiming of the Lord's death until he comes, Every Sunday morning for us, we [00:40:00] are once again renewing ourselves in what was the greatest demonstration of the love of God for while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. And so when we come to the table, acknowledging the Lord's death and proclaiming the Lord's death, we are reminded this is the extent to which God went to reconcile us to God.

And the stirring that happens in our heart, I think, causes love to overflow. And so in that surge of our love for God, Through the celebration of communion, it helps to push down all the other loves, including love of nation. And I got one more on this. I know I've been talking for a while. I got one more, uh, on the point of nationalism.

We are once again, this year participating In, um, election day [00:41:00] communion, we did this in 2016, um, a very contentious presidential election season. Uh, we did not do it in 2020 because of the COVID pandemic, but here in 2024, we're doing it again. So election day communion is essentially we host a communion service at our church.

At about the time the polls are closing, we just had a staff meeting about this and I want to do it right at seven when the polls here locally closed, but I think we're gonna try a little earlier to flex with people's schedule. I get it. I like the symbolism, but. Yeah, you got to work with the people

Andrew Camp: for sure.

Derek Vreeland: So the idea is go and cast a ballot if you choose to. We also recognize some Christians choose to abstain and not vote at all according to their conscience. But if you go to cast a vote, go cast your vote, um, knowing that you'll have brothers and sisters that you go to church with that aren't going to vote the same way [00:42:00] you vote.

Go cast your vote and in a sense, the, the, the polling booth will divide us. Um, now we're trying to talk about who we're voting for, like some of us, because we don't want to create division, but you just know we're not all going to agree. So the polling booth divides us, but then come to the house of God with the people of God and let's come to the table because the table unites us.

Um, because we all come to the table the same way. This reinforces. This is the practice of Holy Communion, reinforcing the very true. And really only division in the universe. And that's between the Trinity and humanity. So when we come to the table, we're all coming the same way as sinners in need of mercy.

And so humanity at the table [00:43:00] comes to commune with the Holy Trinity and that unites us. And that's a beautiful act. So I'm so excited. We're doing that again, because again, that's another way I think communion can be the remedy to nationalism.

Andrew Camp: For sure. No, I was fortunate enough to lead election night communion services, um, in 2016, and we actually were able to do it in 2020.

Oh, good. In Park City, when we were still in Park City, and yeah, like you said, it was one of those great reminders of like, okay, whether, however we voted, we are coming together to remember who we are primarily as brothers and sisters in Christ. And, um, no, so glad to hear of your church doing that. And, um, yeah, like, it's a powerful service that I think more, I hope more churches do.

And so if you're a leader in a local church and you're hearing this and want information, Um, I have some resources, I'd be happy to help people connect or I'm sure Derek, you have [00:44:00] resources. Um, it's not a hard service. You do need somebody probably to lead worship. Um,

Derek Vreeland: well, and we, we, we script the liturgy.

So that, because, you know, for us, we have moments of spontaneity in our worship. There's room for that, but not, uh, Um, the night of election day communion, there's nothing spontaneous, uh, cause it's too easy to get your partisan prayers to, to slip in there. So we keep it very liturgical, but yeah, people reach out to me.

I'm happy. I've actually, uh, responded to an email recently. Someone, um, was Googling election day communion and saw that our church did it and was asking. And so I was happy to answer those and, and resource people and you used. Um, the phrase earlier in talking about the communal nature of communion, uh, re membering, um, and not just remembering and recalling to our memory, but the opposite effect of dismembering.

Yep. So our voting, um, and our [00:45:00] political engagement can dismember us, but Holy Communion re members, puts the members back together.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Derek Vreeland: Which is a beautiful picture.

Andrew Camp: No, it is. That's a, I stole that phrase from Norman Worsba, um, in his book on food and faith and eucharistic table manners and, uh,

Derek Vreeland: so good.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, no, I love that, you know, idea. So

Derek Vreeland: good.

Andrew Camp: Wow. Um, there's a lot here that you've unpacked for us for communion. I love that you've touched on Christian nationalism because the episode right before you was with, I was able to talk with Caleb Campbell, um, about his new book, um, disarming Leviathan and reaching and loving your Christian nationalist neighbor.

And so I think the Lord's table is that vivid reminder, you know, of what it means to center ourselves. Cause he mentioned 98 percent of the work. Of reaching our Christian nationalist neighbors begins with us and on the work in who we are as a person and the Lord's table centers us. And so I think it's a great, [00:46:00] you know, this was not intentional.

And so it's just cool to like, see, you know, how the episodes connect sometimes. Um, you're very cool. Very good. So as we begin to wrap up, um, it's a question I'd love to ask all of my guests. Um, and it's simply this, what is the story you want the church to tell? Um,

Derek Vreeland: What is the story I want the church to tell?

Well, I think the easy answer is the, is the gospel story. Um, I, I, that's still the greatest story ever told, but I think it's, The story that we are specifically telling, we have to be involved in, because the gospel is the proclamation of what God has done in Jesus, but we are invited to participate in that story.

And so, the story that I hope the church [00:47:00] tells. Is a story about how this benevolent, loving creator God, um, didn't stand far off and aloof when God saw the mess that we humanity had created. Yep. Uh, but God, In Jesus came to us, the word became flesh and blood and, and the message translation moved into the neighborhood.

And, Through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, God is present with this church, transforming us. I know some churches get into measuring and metrics and, and the only metric that I'm interested in, in the life of the church, is the story of Jesus. Lives that have been changed. And that's the story. I want the church to tell how the gospel [00:48:00] is shaping and changing people's lives, how Jesus is changing people's lives.

Um, that that's the story because within that, I think it's really the best way that we communicate the gospel is simply by telling our own story. What in my Baptist years we would call the testimony.

Andrew Camp: Yep.

Derek Vreeland: Um, but simply. To share our own unique story, which is always unfolding. There's always even an editing process as we reflect on our own story, but tell our own story.

And then within that story, we show how the gospel story, uh, has transformed us. Because that, that's been my, uh, default. I had this encounter with Jesus when I was a teenager. That's why I'm a pastor. Um, but all I can tell you is what Jesus has done for me. Of course, we can talk theology and discipleship, but at the end of the day, the most [00:49:00] important thing is for me to communicate what I have experienced in response to the gospel.

That's the story I want the church to tell.

Andrew Camp: That's really cool. And it starts with coming to the Lord's table and just remembering, you know, and that's it. Um, it's a cool full circle. Um, yeah, cause we're invited to participate in, in telling the story by our own story. And, you know, in that, you know, coming to the Lord's table is that reminder of who we are and who I am in Christ.

Um, and to be able to do that however often we can, you know, depending on our tradition, you know, and to just remember What Jesus has invited us into in this lovable, peaceable kingdom. Yes. So no, Derek, this has been fun. Um, and so some fun questions to wrap up, just to bring it back to some food items. Um, what's one food you refuse to eat?

Derek Vreeland: Oh, it's probably a vegetable of some sort. I'm going to offend all my [00:50:00] vegan vegetarian friends. Cause I'm a, I'm a meat Atarian. I will not eat cooked spinach. I'll eat fresh spinach, like a spinach salad, with a vinaigrette sauce. I will not, I will not eat cooked spinach.

Andrew Camp: It's gross. Got to even like a cream spinach from like a steakhouse that you know,

Derek Vreeland: okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay if there's like cream in there Vegetable better sure. Yes. Okay.

Andrew Camp: Fair enough. Awesome. And then on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Derek Vreeland: Oh, best thing. I'm, you know, I'm not a foodie. And so, um, because I, I love meat, it's, it's going to be, man, it's going to be some kind of meat.

I want to say, because I'm in the Kansas City area. I want to say either the Kansas City strip steak or barbecue. So now I'm going back and [00:51:00] forth. So I'm a, I'm a black stone. Um, devotee got one for Christmas last year, but did lots of Blackstone griddle cooking. And I have master cooking that steak. That's really good, but I'm going to fall on Kansas City barbecue burnt ends and brisket at Q39 Kansas City, Missouri.

It's probably the best thing I ever ate.

Andrew Camp: Okay. What separates Kansas City brisket from a Texas brisket? Is there a delineation? I'm, I'm sure people will argue over the ins and outs, but Honestly,

Derek Vreeland: honestly, I really like pulled pork is my go to barbecue. Um, but when I went to Q, Q39 is one of the newer barbecue places.

Um, in Kansas city, you got Gates and you got Jack stacks and you got Joe's. Um, Q 39 is a little bit of an upstart, but after the Kansas city chiefs won Superbowl 54, um, in 2020, before the world shut down, coach Andy Reed went to Q [00:52:00] 39. I heard that. And so we went like three weeks after the Superbowl to Q 39.

And I asked, what did Andy Reed have? Uh, and he had. Uh, actually a brisket, uh, salad and I said, well, I'm not here for the salad, but I want to try the brisket. So I'm not a huge brisket like, uh, eater. I don't, so I don't know if I can compare, uh, Texas brisket. Uh, but I will argue, uh, with anyone who wants to have the barbecue debate, just barbecue in general.

My friends in Memphis and Texas and Carolina, they got good barbecue. I've had all their barbecue. That's barbecue in the world, Kansas city, Missouri.

Andrew Camp: Okay. I think, man, there might need to be a showdown at some point.

Derek Vreeland: You should do an episode with a panel of barbecue lovers and we can all debate that. Yeah,

Andrew Camp: that would be fun.

Um, and then finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as if, as in, if you knew you only had one last meal to enjoy, what would it be? And so for you, Derek, if you knew you had one last [00:53:00] meal, what would be on your table?

Derek Vreeland: Oh.

Andrew Camp: Gosh,

Derek Vreeland: last

Andrew Camp: meal. Lots of cooked spinach.

Derek Vreeland: Oh, you want to torture me before I die?

Okay, um, you know what? It would, because I almost said, um, um, a strip steak, but a, a well prepared steak. Um, with a really good red wine and then whatever potato vegetable you want to put on there. I don't care, but a well, well prepared. I like my steak medium, not, um, Not rare not medium rare because you got to let those fats open up and if you don't get that internal temperature high enough They don't release all their flavor.

So so a really well prepared well cooked Rib eye or fillet or strip steak with a [00:54:00] really good Cabernet Sauvignon And then whatever else That would be my final for sure

Andrew Camp: Awesome. Um, thank you, Derek. This has been so fun. I appreciate your insight and sharing of thoughts on the Lord's Table, um, and especially in this season.

Um, and so if people are interested in learning more about your work, um, where can they find you and what you're up to these days?

Derek Vreeland: Uh, everybody can find me online at Derek Vreeland. You just have to spell my name correctly. Uh, but you can find me on Facebook, on Instagram, on the social media platform formerly known as Twitter, or at DerekVreeland.

com.

Andrew Camp: Nice. Awesome. And you are the host of the peace, um, make sure I get this right, um, the peaceable and kind podcast. And so make sure you,

Derek Vreeland: if you go to peaceable and kind. com, uh, you can listen to all the episodes so far, uh, they're there on the website and you can subscribe [00:55:00] on Spotify, Apple, wherever you listen to podcasts to peaceable and kind, we'll talk more about Eucharist and.

Barbecue.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. For sure. Awesome. Well, thanks again for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. Until next time. Bye.