The Biggest Table

Episode 50 (Naeem Fazal)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp. And in this podcast we explore the table, food, eating and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.

And today I'm joined by Naeem Fazal.

Naeem is the founding and lead pastor of Mosaic Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. He is a Pakistani, born and raised as a Muslim in Kuwait. He came to the United States shortly after the Gulf War and had a supernatural experience with Christ that changed the course of his life. He was ordained at Seacoast Church in Charleston and is the author of ex-Muslim. His latest book Tomorrow Needs You, was recently released by InterVarsity Press.

Naem and his wife Ashley, have two children and two cats. So thanks for joining me today, Naeem. Uh, it's great to have you as a guest, uh, on this podcast.

Naeem Fazal: Hello. Thank you for having me Andrew, I'm looking forward to this conversation.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, so like your bio says you're a Pakistani, but born and raised in Kuwait, your family is Muslim.

Give us a glimpse into [00:01:00] your childhood like that Yeah. Feels unique, um, and probably has shaped who you are and how you approach the world in, in, in many ways.

Naeem Fazal: Yeah, it has been, you know, it in one sense it's been very cool, but in the other sense, it's been always a sense of being a stranger in a strange land.

Hmm. Like, so I was born, uh, in Kuwait, which is, um, you know, uh, not the country my parents were born in, so they migrated to Kuwait, their Pakistanis, and when they migrated to Kuwait, you don't become a Kuwaiti citizen because they don't give out citizenships, you know? Right. They, they just don't. And, um, so yeah, we, we, I was raised in a country that, that never gave me citizenship, so never, never kind of made me my its own, you know, so I felt always like, felt like a stranger.

I was, I was an immigrant. And then, um, yeah, in my, when I was 18 years old or so, after going through a war in Kuwait, um. I came to the States and [00:02:00] then, yeah. I again, kind of feel like a stranger in strange land. And, uh, even though I've been in the States for a long time now, I, you know, it's, I'm, it's not my place.

It's not necessarily the country I was born into, you know? Right. Or, and so yeah. It's, it's, I I feel like I've been an immigrant my whole life. I can

Andrew Camp: imagine. So, yeah. No, I remember, like, I worked overseas and worked with missionary kids and there was the phrase third culture kids 'cause mm-hmm. You know, they were neither American, nor were they the country they lived in, but sort of an amalgamation of cultures.

Right. You know, and for you it's like, you're almost like a fourth culture, you know, like you have, you know, how many cultures working to sort of figure out who you are. Yeah,

Naeem Fazal: yeah. You know, and it's, what added to that is that, um, so I, my, the school that I, the schooling that I had re I got I received in Kuwait was actually Indian.

Okay, so, wow. Yeah, my mom. Yeah. Yeah. So they put me in an Indian school from, from the beginning. So I never went to a [00:03:00] Pakistani school until, uh, I went for two years, uh, later on because I had, man, I didn't even know this. I had a learning disability. And, um, and I mean, I got to a point in a certain gr like I started, I started failing fifth grade.

Like I, I could not get into middle school. And, uh, and finally went to a Pakistani school. So that was the first time I went to a Pakistani school and just for a couple of years. And, uh, yeah, it was, it was nuts. But, uh, yeah, so growing up in Kuwait, um, surrounded by Indians home, uh, is obviously Pakistani.

Yeah. Uh, and then the, the culture is all Arab, so yeah, it was, it was fun. That's fine.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And then, so what role does, then did, and does food and hospitality play in like the Muslim culture, and how has that sort of then informed you as you've now become a Jesus follower?

Naeem Fazal: Yeah, man, it's huge. It's huge. Uh, so, uh, you know, again, [00:04:00] um, one of the similarities, or one, one of the things that kind of con connects, uh, my, my, my heritage in one sense, it's Pakistani to Kuwait, is because we are, we are, the religion that they follow is, is the Abrahamic religion.

So you have got, you've got, you know, you've got, you know, uh, Jews, Christians and, uh, Arabs following this, uh, Abraham, Abraham is the, is the father, you know, in a sense, the, and so. Hospitality was a huge thing. Uh, especially if you read the old text in, in, um, the Old Testament about Abraham, that hospitality always played a huge part of, uh, of, of the faith.

And so growing up as a Muslim, 'cause that's what I did. I grew up as a Muslim. Yeah. Hospitality was one of those things that, uh, if you weren't hospitable, you were sinning. I mean, that was a very, very, uh, apparent sin that if you were not hospitable to your, uh, to [00:05:00] strangers, if you weren't, it, it, it showed a lot about your faith, the way, uh, how hospitable you were.

The more hospitable you were, uh, the more Muslim, uh, committed to Islam. You are in a, in a strange way. And yeah. And then also, uh. A lot of the things that, uh, the holidays like, uh, for example, the celebrations. So, you know, um, you know, you've got obviously Christmas here, right? Yeah. And so in, in the Arab world, oral in Islam, Pakistanis and Arabs both celebrate this.

And so in being a Pakistani in Kuwait, you know, I mean obviously Muslim, over Muslim, you know, I mean, we were just all kinds of Islam, uh, Islamic, uh, traditions and things like that. One of them is, uh, one of the, uh, they call them, he, uh, Eids. And Eids is like, I would say, like a Christmas. So one of the Eids is actually, um, that happens after Ramadan.

But the eve that I, that I wanna talk about is this idea. You remember the story of, uh, of [00:06:00] Abraham. Abraham, uh, you know, felt like God was calling him to sacrifice his one and only son, you know, Isaac. And, and, uh, the story in the scriptures is like, you know, and God provided a, a lamb, right? Uh, and, uh. In the Arab world, uh, that's why they sacrifice a lamb.

So in Eid, uh, they will sacrifice a lamb, and they're signifying that, in fact, that story Wow. Of how God provided a lamb. Um, so it's similar and then you all eat together and what happens there is like, you know, where Christmas seems to be a little bit more of like family. Mm-hmm. You know, and just your family, uh, Eid and especially sacrificing, um, you know, uh, a lamb is, is what you bring it to you, you bring the community together.

It's not just family, right. You bring, it's like, it's like neighborhoods or pockets of neighborhoods get together. The more people you can get together. Hmm. Um, also in Ramadan breaking a fast. [00:07:00] Yeah. Again, uh, was like not just the family breaks the fast. No. A neighbors come and it's, it's a, it's a whole day.

So imagine. Imagine a whole country for a whole month, always throwing a party every day. Wow. Yeah. I mean, so you could, um, you know, like, so hospitality and this idea of kingship and fellowship even.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Naeem Fazal: It's a huge thing, uh, in the Muslim culture. Um, yeah. So,

Andrew Camp: wow. So like how did then, like, that doesn't pervade at least American Christianity, this idea of celebration and bringing the community together like you're talking about.

And so like, how, how does that then inform as you lead a church? Like how do you seek to bring in this, this bigger, more radical hospitality to play? 'cause you're, you're leading a multi-ethnic church and your goal is for multi-ethnicity, which is, you know, a harder, but a more beautiful goal. Um, and so [00:08:00] like, how, how does hospitality then play, um, and factor into, into your church?

Naeem Fazal: Yeah. Well, you know, at Mosaic, uh, like our mission statement, you know, is to reclaim the message and the movement of Jesus. Mm-hmm. And so what we're trying to do is really is see ga uh, what is, what, what does it mean to take back some of the things, like some of the, the messaging and some of, and what the church is supposed to look like.

Uh, what does Jesus really say? What did scriptures really say? What does it look, I, what does our faith look like? And then what is the church supposed to look like? Yeah. Really. Uh, and you know, I mean, I, I, I mean, I love the beauty and the diversity of denominations, but I think at the end of the end of the day, I'm not quite sure if that is what Jesus had in mind, you know, for us to be in like these Yeah.

Uh, these, the, these, uh, uh, these pockets of, of, uh, doctrinal, um, you know, uh, compartments, you know, in a sense, or communities where we're like, no, no, no. So and so is wrong, or so and so is wrong, and we don't get together and, you know, and, and, and look down upon and all that. I'm not quite sure if that's what he [00:09:00] had in mind.

Um, so I feel like when it comes to like, um, mosaic, what we tr uh, what we, number one, what we, uh, what what we try to do is that, uh, we interpret the scriptures uhlike, the, the way they were, um, written down, as in they were written to a community. Yeah. They were never written to a person. Yeah. Uh, some of them were, you know, there are few, uh, letters.

They were like, Hey, this is too so and so. Yeah. Uh, but usually it was to this church and to this people. And so when Jesus thought, I mean, yes, he would address certain people individually, but then his teachings were. Us, like, Hey, this is about us. This is the, this is how we're supposed to live. Like, this is how you, you, you need to interact each other.

Like, you know, like even his, his one and only commandment, the new one that he gave, he said, love one another. Like, I have loved you. Um, and even there he is saying, [00:10:00] don't love the way you know you love yourself. That was the ultimate commandment. Uh, don't do that. Don't l you know, no, no love. The way I've loved you and the way I've loved you is I brought you in community.

Uh, I've loved you with the everlasting love of gracious love. And so what I, what all that informs the way we do ministry. And that is, hey, remember, if it's not. It is your, it is a personal, intimate faith, but it's not a private one. It's a corporate one. So it's like, I think it's an intimate, deep faith that you have, but it's together.

It's like understanding like that in the western world, a family is, you know, uh, mom and dad and kids. Yep. And that this is who we are. This is what, this is our deal. This is, this is us.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Naeem Fazal: And, you know, uh, mom and dad raise their kids well in the eastern culture. It's a [00:11:00] village mentality. Yeah. It's a, yeah.

Like, so for example, my name Naeem, uh, was not really, um, like my mom and dad didn't name me, and I have two brothers, two sisters, and none of them were named by my mom and dad. Huh. It was by my uncle. Uh, they give the honor to someone else.

Andrew Camp: Wow.

Naeem Fazal: Just the craziest thing, right? Yeah. You'd never think like, no, we raise this kid.

I mean, we, you know, I'm naming my kid. Right. That's not how it works. There. Hmm. Um, yeah, the, the honor is given now, I mean, some people don't do that, but at least in my family or in, you know, Letta, that's how we did it. So no one is the, the, and then the, the, the, my dad, I guess the honor of naming maybe his, uh, his brother's sons or his brother's daughter, but it's not so, so this idea of like, Hey, we are, we're, we're a family and we just don't mean mom and dad.

We mean, like, this [00:12:00] is like, like when, like we, when, uh, God called Abraham to leave his family, he was not like, I'm moving across town. We're so, no, he was, he was leaving his whole clang. He was leaving, he was gonna start a new thing. It was a big ask for God to do that. Yeah. Um, so, so, so when you have that idea, when, uh, you know, and you incorporate that in a church.

Yeah, we, so, I mean, even, even this past weekend, I talked about how this, we are becoming a village. Yeah. And so we have to get to a point where we're okay with other people, uh, instructing our kids, uh, correcting our kids. But also because if you're okay with people, uh, taking care of your kids or, or looking out for your kids as they're running around, well, they should be able to even instruct them.

Right. And so it's a trust thing. It's a lot of, yeah. So when you create a community like that, [00:13:00] hospitality is just, it's not what we do, it's who you are. That makes yeah. Sense. No.

Andrew Camp: Yep. Yeah. 'cause we

Naeem Fazal: that, yeah.

Andrew Camp: No, because I think too many times we associate hospitality with an act of inviting people over.

But really, hospitality is really an inward posture or a corporate posture. Mm-hmm. You know, of how do we create space for, for another person, um, to flourish and to be, be who God created them to be. Right. You know? And so. Yeah. Um,

Naeem Fazal: yeah, see hospitality also, like you cannot be hospitable without moving, uh, you and your needs out of the center.

Mm-hmm. Like, you can't do that. No. Like you can't be hospitable and, uh, like truly hospitable. I mean, you can flatter people and you can, you know, like you can move things around and, you know, make sure someone gets more attention and this and all that. But there's a difference between like, like I'm sure Andrew, you've heard of this honor [00:14:00] culture and churches, right?

So that's the big difference between like hospitality culture versus an honor culture. The honor culture means some people get honor, right. Others just don't. No. Right. Right. Yeah. Hospitality is like, everybody honors everybody. Everybody treats everybody like a human. Everybody, um, thinks of the other person.

Um, that's a different kind of, you know, culture.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, I love that picture of hospitality and it, like my wife and I, I've said this on this podcast with numerous guests, it feels like, but it just keeps coming up, is like, my wife and I reread Henry Nouns reaching out book, which mm-hmm. Is three movements of, you know, and he talks that hospitality, we can't be truly hospitable until we've learned to be in solitude as well.

Mm-hmm. Like, until we've gotten released, released this idea of looking for others to fill a need that only Jesus can, uh, you know, and that's so good. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah, we can pretend to be hospital, we can [00:15:00] throw a great dinner party, but to truly welcome another, um, especially another person who is different than us, that might hold different beliefs, political, religious, socioeconomic, whatever, like, we can't truly welcome them if we're not comfortable and grounded, you know, in, in who Jesus says we are.

Naeem Fazal: Right. Right. Because then you don't feel like then it's pure. You're not trying to get something from them.

Andrew Camp: No.

Naeem Fazal: You know, you, you, they're not trying to, like, you're not, I'm not so true. Hospitality is not like, I, I, I need you to do something for me, or I need to, I need to feel something when I do this to you or for you.

Right. Um, but yeah, that's a, that. Yeah. But I mean, it takes time to get there. Yeah. But you can start with like, Hey, let's, I need to do this. Right? Yep. I need to be hospital, you know? Yep.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. So, no, and it's, you know, and many times to g you truly hospi, we have to relinquish power or give up our seat, you know, to make space, you know, for the disenfranchised or those [00:16:00] people that maybe aren't in power, and to learn what, yeah.

What does, what does your culture, what does your story bring? That my story is lacking. Mm. Yeah. You know, and that, that's a hard task. 'cause Yeah. Nobody wants to relinquish power or their privilege. Um, but you know, I think as you're describing it, that's what the church should be is where everybody has a seat at the table to say, Hey, here's, here's what I'm seeing and here's where we can grow together.

Naeem Fazal: Right, right. For sure. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: And so you come, you come from this big family, you know, this honor culture, you know, where, you know your uncle names you and you come to the United States and you meet Jesus, which from what I've heard, Muslims meeting Jesus is never an easy transition. Um, you know, and, and you mentioned that your brother became a Christian before you.

Um, and so like what, how, walk us walk, my listener. 'cause it's such a great story, but like, I think it, again, it, [00:17:00] it, it pervades who you are and helps us understand like, okay, what does it mean to. To follow Jesus.

Naeem Fazal: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I mean, so my story is, um, very, very, uh, strange. Uh, I mean, it's, it's unbelievable.

So, uh, uh, just let me go take you back to growing up in Kuwait. So we had two, I have got two brothers and two sisters. Mom and dad, right. Grew up in Kuwait, like I said, and, but my brother, he's about a couple, so, uh, about four years older than me. And so he got accepted to a college in the US from, you know, and we were in Kuwait, so we were really super excited.

We were like, okay, this is great. But we sent him to like, uh, he got accepted to Spartanburg Methodist University. So it was in Spartanburg, uh, South Carolina was, it was a Methodist university. And Andrew, we had no idea what Methodist meant. No. So we're like, oh, that's great. That's awesome. Sent him great.

So, uh, he comes back, [00:18:00] uh, every year and one year, the second year he came back, um. He told me, and, uh, my two sisters, he was like, yeah, you know what, I'm a I'm actually a Christian now. And, uh, I'm a, I'm a Jesus follower. I don't, I don't, uh, I'm, I reject Islam. I'm, uh, and I'm gonna tell mom and dad about this.

And I'm, I'm like, and I'm like, what? And so I actually freaked out and we got into a physical altercation and, um, I threaten to kill him. Bad.

So he didn't, he didn't do anything. He led that summer. He didn't tell mom and dad and uh, and then just went back to the states, uh, to finish up. And, uh, you know, so we, I just knew my brother was this g like something like a Christian. Now I don't know what he was doing. Now, going back the, the, the reason why that was so, uh, powerful, uh, and so significant, the way he did this is that because Islam is like a global nationality.

Hmm. [00:19:00] So when you become, when you leave the nationality, you'll be, be, you instantly become a traitor. So that's kinda like the mentality and that's why some of these, uh, countries, uh, have, uh, laws that, uh, can punish a traitor. So, you know, Sharia law says that if a Muslim who was born and raised Muslim, uh, rejects Islam.

He's rejecting Prophet Muhammad, which means he's saying something wrong about prophet ham, and that means he's punish by death or imprisonment. So it's, uh, Pakistan and Kuwait, uh, still have those laws in place. Hmm. So anyways, um, you know, but he's in the states now and so, uh, you know, no one knows. But then Iraq, uh, in 1990, uh, invades Kuwait and the neighboring country because of oil and all kinds of things, they, it, it shows up and it takes over the, the country.

And we're, we're kind of stuck there trying to figure out what to do. And a lot of immigrants took off and, but we decided to [00:20:00] stay. Um. And we stayed there throughout the Gulf War kind of crazy story. So my first book, ex-Muslim, I kind of chronicle all, all of my stories and my siblings, but also the stories in of the war and things like that.

But in 1992, so two years afterwards, I, uh, got a chance to come to the us. My dad was like, Hey, listen, you know, you haven't graduated from high school. What do you wanna do? You wanna start working? Uh, I can get you a tourist visa to go visit your, uh, your, uh, your brother. And even there, I mean, they wouldn't give, they wouldn't give me a tourist visa back in there.

They would give the family, but not just me, because they're like, this guy, this guy's gonna just, you know, stay there right. Illegally. And, uh, which, which was honestly, I mean, my dad just put me on a plane. He is like, okay, don't ever come back. Wow. I mean, that's what he said. He said, don't come back. Okay.

And I was like, what? Like, okay. So I show up to the states. You know, I mean, not no idea of this culture, uh, except what I've [00:21:00] seen on tv. I had a thick English accent, you know, accent, like thick Pakistani English accent. Yep. Um, uh, so I came here and my brother was like, uh, he introduced me to his son of his friends and, uh, they invited me to FCA Fellowship of Christian athletes.

And so like the first week, I mean I was going to FCA and, uh, I mean, I didn't, I was like, okay, what is the, what's going on? And that's where I heard about the gospel, heard about Jesus. And especially the message of like, Jesus is so personal and so, uh, pursuing you that he'll reveal himself to you if you ask him.

Hmm. And I'm like, I never heard that before. And then also I didn't really believe any of this. I was like, nah, this is just BS man. And, and he was like, and my brother was so convinced, he was like, just, just ask him. He'll reveal himself. I'm like. This is not, this is not how it works. And so, three weeks into it, uh, and to being in the States, I was trying to figure out what to do, and I just was like, you know what?

I at one, one meeting [00:22:00] at FCA, I just was like, I just kind of said to myself, I was like, you know what? If this is, if this is even half true, I wanna know.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Naeem Fazal: Didn't think anything of it. Uh, a couple of nights later, about three nights later or so, I'm in my room trying to fall asleep and something just crazy happens.

So, uh, all of a sudden I feel like the room is kind of weird, strange. My heart starts racing and I'm like, uh, because I, I was about to fall asleep, but I, I, I didn't, I mean, I, I wasn't asleep. Yeah. So I was like, I was gonna shut off the lamp light. And, uh, something grabs me, man, all of a sudden and pins me to my pillow.

And I'm like, and I again, I'm like, I'm in a dream. I, yeah, I'm, that's what I'm thinking. And then something, uh, uh. Sits on my legs. I mean, I, I'm trying to move out of, I mean, wrestle out of this, but I can't, I'm paralyzed. The only thing I can move is my neck. I'm looking around, I started yelling. I realize I can't hear myself.

[00:23:00] I'm like, what's going on? And my brother's in the other room and I'm freaking out. And I feel like, like, man, evil and death is in the room.

Andrew Camp: Wow.

Naeem Fazal: So finally the door opens up and in walks this thing. And, you know, growing up in Islam, we didn't really talk about like demons and angels or anything like that.

And so this thing looks like a huge gargo like walking up towards me and, and just scratched communicating. He's like, I'm gonna kill you. You know, I'm gonna, you die a night. And I belie. I'm like, okay. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Wow.

Naeem Fazal: And, uh, I'm like, I'm just so shocked. Uh, and this thing starts go, it gets closer and closer and I think it's gonna be over.

I'm like, I don't know what's gonna happen. And uh, this thing, whatever this thing was, disappears, and then whatever was holding me, let's go. And I'm just like stunned in my bed. Yeah. And I'm like, what just happened? And I run out of the room, wake up my brother, and I was like, what'd you do? Like what, what, what is this?

Yeah. And so I tell him what happens and, [00:24:00] and he was like, oh man. And he is like, as I'm telling him, he is like smiling. I'm like, what are you doing? Like, yeah, your psychopath, like, why are you smiling? And he was like, this stuff is true, man. And I was like, what do you mean true? And he says, it's in the Bible.

And I'm like, what? What, what do you mean what's in the Bible? Because I had never read the Bible. Yeah. So, uh, he was telling me about the gospel stories and all that, and, and I'm like, what? And I'd never heard of this. I'm like, I don't know. Please tell me. This is not real. Right? This cannot be real. No, I'm just freaking out.

I just had a bad dream. And he was like, no man, this stuff is real. And I'm like, are you kidding me? And so. So he tries to explain a lot of things to me. We, you know, for an hour or so we're talking about God and Jesus and, and all that. And then I just finally was like, I'm like, listen man, I need help. I don't know what to do.

And he was like, well, there's only one person I know who has power of demons and angels. I was [00:25:00] like, who? And he was like, Jesus. And I was like, okay, okay. Okay, fine. So then I said, all right. Okay. And so, um, so I, I pray, I say, Hey, Jesus, I don't know who you are, so I can't say who you are the Lord of my life.

Um, I can't say I love you. I can't make any promises, but if you save me from this, I'll give you my life. Hmm. And then my brother asked me to him, you know, he, to contact me to the, the Romans, you know, saying takes through of salvation kind of thing, and Yeah. And then, um, amen. Amen. He was like, all right, man, I'll see you in the morning.

And I'm like, so freaked out, you know? I'm like, uh, okay. Well, I'm like, spooning you, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I'm like, I'm not leaving. No, I'm not going back in that room. So we, I literally had an argument about going back in the room.

Andrew Camp: Wow.

Naeem Fazal: And, uh, and he was like, no, I got you. I got you. And he is like, I, he gives me a Bible.

Uh, the first Bible, like, uh, he gave me, and it was, it's was, it was smaller than my, than the iPhone. Yeah. Like, it was like the, the, the Gideons [00:26:00] New Testament. Have you seen those? Yeah. The little

Andrew Camp: pocket. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I've, yeah, we've all had 'em, you know?

Naeem Fazal: Yeah. So I, that was my first bible that, that I held.

Oh my goodness. It was so, I was like,

Andrew Camp: yeah.

Naeem Fazal: I was like, who is this for? Like, what are these? He's like, like, and he is like, no, no, it's just a New Testament. Just, you know, and, uh, um, I was like, okay, okay. So I go back in the room, I turn on all the lights. I'm sitting there reading John or something, and I'm just freaking out.

Yeah. Reading. And then I'm thinking, man, what am I doing? Like, what, what, what's happening? This cannot be happening to me. Like I just, like, you know, I, I just, I've been here for less than a month and just came through a war and now I have demon problems. Like this is, am I going mad,

Andrew Camp: right?

Naeem Fazal: And, uh, so finally I'm just so frustrated.

I put the Bible down, I go shut off the lights and get back in my bed. And I just look up and I just say, Jesus, um, if I die [00:27:00] tonight, it is your fault. Now, I don't know why I said that. I have no idea what I was, I was just freaked out. Yeah. Put the covers in my head, didn't know what to do. And, uh, finally trying to fall asleep.

And man, all of a sudden I feel like something's shaking me and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is like round two. Like this is happening again. Right? So I find myself like, you know, sitting on my bed. And, uh, trying to see what's going on and, and as said, look, um, it's strangest thing, Andrew. I mean, like, like there he was, like, he said, I'm Jesus and your life is not your own.

Hmm. Um, and, uh, uh, I mean, I, it was so strange because I was looking at him, but I remember saying out loud, like, I'm inside of you. Like, it is the weirdest, craziest thing. I mean, I've never felt like peace. So aggressive. Yeah. Uh, presence. So [00:28:00] intoxicating. Like, I couldn't keep my eyes off of him. I couldn't keep my eyes open.

Yeah. And, uh, yeah, he said it again. I, I think, Hmm. And, uh, yeah, I, then he just put me to sleep. I just couldn't stay in that presence for too long. I just knew that like, in this physical form and in that reality could not mix. Like it was like going through like a. I don't know, like a, another dimension.

Yeah. Uh, uh, a wormhole. I don't even know, man. It was so weird.

Andrew Camp: I can imagine.

Naeem Fazal: And uh, uh, yeah, the next morning I got up and I just kind of had this download that I was supposed to be in ministry. I was supposed to not do what I was thinking of doing I was supposed to do. Yeah. And I had no idea what ministry meant.

Right. And, uh, uh, and yeah. And that launched, you know, that's why I'm here sitting here, you know, um, 30 years later. Right. And then a year after year, like my sisters came to Christ and my brother came to Christ and my dad before he passed as well. Mm-hmm. So it's like a whole [00:29:00] story of that. And um, so yeah, that's the journey.

That was the first book. And then the second book is really about, yeah, what do you do? And you see the God of miracles, who's done miracles in your life, allows, um, like tragedy in your life and how do you come out of that? So, yeah, that's my story, man.

Andrew Camp: That's amazing. 'cause yeah, like it's. You know, it's being raised in the church, you know my story, like, I was basically born into the church, right?

Like, and so, like one of those kids who have accepted Jesus at four, you know, just been in the church my whole life. Yeah. You know, and so it's just the reality and the beauty of Jesus sometimes I think feels over there for me. You know, like, um, you know, and I'm, I'm guessing some listeners might feel the same way.

And so it's like, okay, what, how do we, how do we come in contact with this beautiful Jesus, you know? And how does he become real? Um, you know, having been the [00:30:00] exposure, having been exposed to it so much. Yeah, yeah,

Naeem Fazal: yeah.

Andrew Camp: You know, and so, yeah, like, it's, it's so beautiful to hear that story. 'cause you even have a quote from your new book that says, fear might control our emotions, but beauty has the power to shape our souls.

And I feel like your story just speaks to what. The beauty of Jesus can do, uh, you know, when it breaks through in, in the most surreal ways, whether it's like your story or whether it's breaking through when we're experiencing grief or loss or tragedy, you know, like how, how does beauty shape our souls?

Uh, you know, and, and what, what, how can Jesus's beauty shape our souls in today's culture, I guess would be a question. Yeah.

Naeem Fazal: Yeah. No, it's a great question. Yeah. I, and, and I think, um, most people don't realize the power of creating beauty. Mm-hmm. Um, because, uh, they don't realize the [00:31:00] connection. Uh, now what's a spiritual connection to it?

So, you know, when we think of people who've gone through traumatic experiences, and if they're, uh, going and reco become learning to become, uh, human again, they're learning to, uh, detox from, you know, emotional, uh, you know, abuse of any kind, you know. Psychologists and, uh, therapists will tell them to surround themselves with beauty, uh, or create beauty.

Mm-hmm. So art, doing artwork, uh, building things, you know, doing, doing something for someone else, doing beautiful acts, creating beautiful things, surrounding yourself with beauty. All of those things actually heal our hearts and heal our souls. Yeah. And, uh, reframe us and realign us, uh, to what, who we were and return us to who we were.

And so, uh, we know this, but it's spiritually what [00:32:00] happens is sometimes, like when we go through, um, difficult times, when we go through, um, uh, rejection or betrayal, we go through a breakup, we go through huge amounts of grief, grief. What we, what we're told is to pray more and believe more and trust more sometimes, you know?

That's it. Yeah. Just believe more and trust more and, you know, just get with God and, you know, and or get a word from God or, or, or do more things like read the Bible more. And, and when you don't realize this is that in fact, like Jesus, uh, continually throughout the scripture used, uh, uh, beauty, uh, to come against the fear, uh, like, like, and like, uh, and worry in our lives.

Like, so, like if you read, uh, Matthew, he talks about, you know, don't worry, you know about what you will wear. Mm-hmm. You know, or what you would eat and, you know, and all that. Don't worry about, uh, [00:33:00] how things are gonna be provided. And the first thing he says of how, what to do, he says, Hey, look at the birds.

Like, what? What do you mean look at the birds? Like what, what? Why are we looking at the birds? He was like, look at the beautiful birds that God created and he takes care of them. Mm-hmm. So what is he saying? He's saying, move your, move your eyes to beauty. He's like, look at the birds. He's like, oh man. You worried about, you're stressing out about clothing, you're stressing out about provisions in your life.

Look at the flowers. Yeah. Again, like, what are we doing?

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Naeem Fazal: You know? You know, because he's saying, don't look at your bank account. Look at the beautiful things around you. Like he's literally saying, look at the flowers. Look how beautiful they're, again, he's saying beauty. He says, and, and then he points them to the beautiful relationship, the flowers and the birds have with God.

He says he provides for them. That's a beautiful relationship, right? Yeah. [00:34:00] Because they don't, so they don't do this. They don't do anything and, but yet he provides, and then. And aren't you worthy? Aren't you worth more than them? Like, don't you think God cares about you even more? Mm. So again, he says, points them to the beautiful relationship that God has or has, or a beautiful love that God has for us continually.

He does that

Andrew Camp: right?

Naeem Fazal: And I think there's like a loss. It's so, so, uh, so that's why I talk about it in the book. I'm like, the, the, the, the, the most fearful things in our life are only dismantled by the beautiful things in our life. And when we choose to create beauty, we conquer fear and anxiety in our lives.

Like, um, like even, and here's why. The, if the biggest thing people, I, I want, I want people to know, like God has always told us, like, Hey, when you're going through the worst of times, we, I need you to [00:35:00] create, I need you to build. I need you to do some, I need, I need you. Mm-hmm. Don't, don't dwindle away. Don't just wait around.

Like, so the Jewish people went through, you know, exile and Babylon, you, you know the story, right? Yeah. And do you know Jeremiah 29 11? It's a famous, right? Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. For I know the plans I have for you, right? Correct.

Naeem Fazal: I, yeah. And we love that one. We like, yes. So, and you know what that happens is we think of that as a faith thing.

And she says, Hey, so if you have some issues in your life, you, if you're going through some stuff in your life, if you're season that you don't love, just have this hope. Just, just know this. Just believe this claim, this verse, all that. Okay. Well you can't claim the verse if you don't read the chapter right?

That it came out of. Yeah. Like it is the last thing he said. It's not the first thing.

Andrew Camp: No,

Naeem Fazal: the first thing he said is, um, here's what I want you to do. I allowed this to happen and here's what I want you to do. I want you to [00:36:00] build homes, plant gardens. I want you to eat their fruit. I want you to marry and you to find, uh, don't dwindle away.

I want you to have grandchildren. I want you, like, he starts selling them to have these long range plans and says, I want you to start building, start praying for the pers prosperity of the, the place you've been for it's welfare to Germans. Yours. I want you to do all this. Also, don't listen to the, uh, prophets who are telling you it's not gonna be a, it's not gonna be just wait.

Just wait. God will come. God will come. Don't listen to them. You know why? Because I'm not gonna come for about 70 years. Yeah. Right? I mean, what? Yeah. I'm not coming. I'm not coming for 70 years. But then after 70 years, guess what? I'll come and, uh, get you out. And you know why? Because I know the plans I have for you, right?

As the Lord. Yeah. I to give you hope in the future. So what is he saying? He's saying, listen, like in you going through some stuff, the re you have to create beautiful things around you. Mm-hmm. [00:37:00] Or because you, you are wired up that way, and if, if that passage scripture was not enough, the first book in the genesis.

Yeah. The first book of the scriptures says it. Yeah. Like, here's, here's what I'm like, I'm, I'm always surprised by this. Like, have you ever made something, have you ever made, uh, anything like, uh, accomplished something and complimented yourself? Like Andrew, have you Oh, yeah. Like, when I

Andrew Camp: cook, when I make a great dish, it's like, yeah.

Like I, I love to cook. I used to be a professional chef, so like when I created Dish that is like, hits those notes, you're like, yep, I'm done. I don't need, yeah, yeah.

Naeem Fazal: Yes, I've arrived. This is it. This is, this is something beautiful about this. Right, right. It's like, and you compliment yourself. And we do this.

I mean, yeah. So you don't have to be like a chef. You can be any, you can create anything. I mean, shoot, you can wash your car. Mm-hmm. Look at it and go, man, this, this looks amazing. Yeah. You know? [00:38:00] So this idea of like complimenting ourselves when we do something that's wonderful. Where did we get that from?

God. God. Yeah. Yeah. Like so if you read Genesis, okay. And I mean, maybe I'm taking some liberty on this, but I mean, I mean God creates something the first day and then he stops and goes, oh, that's good. Yeah. Then he keeps on going next day. Oh, that's good. Right? Oh, that's good. Yeah. I mean literally God's complimenting himself like Right.

And then the last day he looks at everything, looks what he made us. And then he says, this is really good. Like Right. He's like, I'm amazing. Yeah. This is ama. I'm amazing guys. Like he literally does that. And so when we create. We act like the one who created us. Hmm. We act like our heavenly Father when we create things.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Naeem Fazal: Beautiful things because it heals us. Because, and, and, and here's the thing. Here's why I say beautiful things is because you can't create something [00:39:00] beautiful without loving it. Hmm. Like the only reason it's something, it's beautiful because it's, you love it. It's not beautiful because it's attractive.

Andrew Camp: No,

Naeem Fazal: no. It's beautiful because you made it.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Naeem Fazal: So when you make something out of love, when you allow God's love in you, when you allow it to shape you and lead you, uh, it number one casts out fear. Right? 'cause faith does not love does. Yeah. Love casts out fear because it now you are allowing love to lead your life.

And when you allow love to lead your life, it cannot help but create beautiful things, beautiful relationships, beautiful communities, be beautiful. Purpose, vision. Um. Beautiful acts, it can't help it. Right. And so, so that's what I'm hoping is, and this book is for people to move out of, uh, their fears and, and betrayal and abuse, uh, not by having, believing more No, but creating more beautiful [00:40:00] things in their lives.

Andrew Camp: Hmm. I love that because yeah, like, how do we move from fear and anxiety towards beauty feels like a hard task, but it has the power to heal. Like, I, you know, I know when I feel overwhelmed, you know, like. Or here I'll share this one story. 'cause it might, you know, when I was a chef at a restaurant, uh, I was sous chef, so I was second in charge and there was one day where everything was going wrong.

Like, you know, it was just one of those days where you're fixing problem after problem. And I remember having this thought to myself like, I either need to start drinking or I need to create a dish. Like, thankfully, like I, I chose to create, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like taking that moment, and we had a small group coming in that needed a little bite of food.

Right. So it was, it gave me an opportunity to figure something out, but figuring out what to looking in the fridge, you know, and granted I had access to more things than a normal fridge, but looking around and figuring out what could I create mm-hmm. Gave me a chance to reset [00:41:00] my soul. Um, oh yeah. In just a very small way, you know?

Yeah. Um, you know, and it's not dealing with grief, it was just one of those, you know, breath moments almost.

Naeem Fazal: Yeah. I mean, and people don't realize how much that's so important. And it's not just important. It's necessary. Yeah. Because we were created that way. Yeah. You know it when people, that's why people sit and cer and, and sit and look at art.

Right. And allow their souls to just feel everything. Yeah. You know? Um, why, because there's something about that. There's something about, that's why David, he's like, you know, when I look at the moons and the stars, I just start feeling, what am I, yeah. That you're mindful of me. Mm-hmm. Like, what, what are we, like, what, why, why we so insignificant yet you care for us?

You know? Uh, like, so why he, he's, he's again seeing it something so, um, awe inspiring, right? That he goes, [00:42:00] yeah, I'm. Yeah. It's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. Yeah. You know, um, and so, yeah, I hope people, uh, do that more and more. You know, Andrew, I mean, you know, I was just talking to a buddy just yesterday and he was talking about, uh, uh, his coworker that he was gonna have lunch with this week.

Mm-hmm. And the guy took his life. And, uh, you know, and my book tomorrow needs you. The reason why I, the title is what it is, is because my dad tried to commit suicide and was not, uh, was not successful. And in the co and the con conversation we had afterwards, after that incident, he told me he was, because I was asking him, I was like, dad, what's going on?

And he was like, no one needs me. Mm. You don't need me. I'm useless. And I was like, what do you mean I don't need you? I was like, dad, I need you. Like, we need you, [00:43:00] your grandkids need you. And he was just not able to see it. Hmm. He wasn't like, and that's what happens, man. The first thing that happens with de dis despair and, and discouragement, uh, you know, discouragement starts off where you criticize the beautiful things, but then despair is, you just can't even blind.

You're blind to him. Right. You just can't see it. Mm-hmm. You can't see anything beautiful. No. And he could just, could not see anything beautiful, uh, around, and, and, and then it's a lie. The lie is then, okay, well, no one needs you. You're useless. You don't matter. Yeah. You're washed up. You made too many mistakes, you're done.

Hmm. Um, you're not lovable. You're not successful, you're not gonna make it. You know? And, uh, and then people just go, you know what, yeah, you're right. Tomorrow doesn't, no one, no one needs me.

Andrew Camp: Right.

Naeem Fazal: So, I'm hoping, man, I'm, I'm praying that people will go, Hey, listen, the first thing you gotta do is. Look at the beautiful things around you [00:44:00] and then start to create beautiful things.

Mm-hmm. You know, uh, because that's gonna give you the power that really is, um, you know, um, so yeah.

Andrew Camp: You know, and, and I think I'd be curious 'cause you know, Jesus, in the moments where people are despairing, he sometimes uses the table as a means to orient, reorient them towards beauty, whether it's Zacchaeus or mm-hmm.

The disciples to Emmaus. Um, and so as you think of like beauty and helping others reorient their souls that, you know, tomorrow needs you, and obviously like there are times where people need professional help, right? Like Yeah, sure. You never wanna minimize. Yeah. But like, as we're just being with people, how can the table help us and help us create that space where we can help others see the beauty?

Naeem Fazal: Yeah, no, great question, man. In fact, we have this, uh, Wednesday night discipleship, uh, thing once a month and it's called a table. Okay. [00:45:00] And, uh, so it's not just one table, but there's several tables. Yeah. Right. Uh, but basically it's like learning and, and uh, and investigating and growing together, but also having people, uh, on the table who are not like you.

Yeah. Like at the seat of the table, who are not like you. Uh, so I don't think you can see the beauty of people unless you actually sit with them. Mm-hmm. Um, because there's one thing, you know, like the, the, the, sometimes our faith, uh, depending on how you grew up, what denomination you grew up, it's all about standing for your faith.

It's all about standing. You know, we're standing against this and we're standing for this, and we're standing against that. And I'm like, and then Mosaic, we talked about, you know, we don't stand on issues. We sit with people. Mm. Yeah. And I, and so what that means is, is that it's not like we don't have any stance on issues.

It's just that we first sit with people, sit with people, right. When you sit with people, you kind of go, okay, I see the humanity behind this choice of yours. Right. [00:46:00] You know? So like, I mean, could you imagine if we were like, Hey politically, can we just sit Right. Can we just sit and talk? Yeah. Like, you know, your politics is one part of you, not your whole part.

No. Of you. Mm-hmm. So, and on either sides, like, so yeah, I think, I think you, you can't see the beautiful, the beauty, the beautiful uniqueness of people. Uh, if you don't sit with them around a table, you won't, you're not gonna hear beautiful stories. No. You can read about beautiful stories. Yeah. But you are not gonna be really, uh, um, be transformed with be by, by, uh, beautiful stories unless you sit with people.

Um, it's the relationships in our life that really shape us. And so if, um, you don't sit with anybody who's different from you, I mean, I don't know. Are you really growing? Like mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. You know, like, you know, there are people in your life who you're like, man, you're the same person 20, 30 years [00:47:00] from ago.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Naeem Fazal: Yeah. Because you've never gotten out or sat with anyone else who is not like o other than you, you know? Right. Yeah. You sat with the same people. Right. You sit with the same crew. You eat with the same crew. You don't even know anybody, but you know. Yeah. Uh, that's not in your, uh, culture, like a subculture or your whatever.

And I mean, what a. It's not sad life, but it is in a sense. It's not, it's not really, you don't know what the rest of the world is, you know? No. Yeah. So,

Andrew Camp: no, and especially if we've, yeah, if we've clustered and, you know, just kept in our silos mm-hmm. You know, we, we don't know what's available, you know, and what Yeah.

You know, and even if it's not just politically, but just even spiritually sitting with people from different denominations, like whether you are, like, you know, I remember sitting with, you know, more charismatic people who wanted everybody baptized in the spirit and speaking in tongues and like, you know, it helped me reshape my view of what [00:48:00] life in the spirit can be, because I sat with people versus just judging, judging the worst, you know, whether that's, you know, those, you know, pastors who take advantage of people, you know, and Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, and so like, it's just rec, you know, it's, it's in that sitting, you know. And you mentioned that it takes time, like it's not an easy one time quick fix. To see the beauty in others that's

Naeem Fazal: not, and it's a very courageous thing to do, and vulnerable thing to do is to, to sit and have a meal. Yeah.

Like, you'll notice like certain people who don't want want you to get close. They don't wanna eat with you. Hmm. They don't wanna eat with you. Yeah. They, they'll do a coffee, but they don't wanna eat with you. Right. Um, and uh, even at Mosaic, we talk about this because, you know, I remember like, uh, early on in our faith, in my faith with Christianity, it was all about like, Hey, we need to break bread together.

You break bread together. And uh, and I realized, I said, I remember I was, like I said, we don't break bread together. Most the time in [00:49:00] church, we eat at the same time. Like, right. So in the Eastern culture, you literally break the same bread.

Andrew Camp: Wow. Like, uh,

Naeem Fazal: okay. So like, so when we like, so like even at the table, our, the midweek thing, it's a potluck,

Andrew Camp: right?

Naeem Fazal: So we're not like ordering Chick-fil-A or ordering this because you not breaking bread.

Andrew Camp: No.

Naeem Fazal: You didn't make this.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Naeem Fazal: You got whatever you wanted. Yeah. You got your thing. And we're eating. You have nothing to do with this. So there's a difference between that and then, oh, sitting down and talking about like, oh yeah, this is my so and so recipe.

Or, oh, I think I messed this up, but we'll see what happens. Yeah. That's breaking the same bread. Right? That's like, that's like sharing our lives. So when people are, what I've realized is that when people are able to do that,

Andrew Camp: right,

Naeem Fazal: when they, when they're vulnerable enough to one, make something that might not be that great, right?[00:50:00]

Yeah. That someone, they're like, no one's touched the macaroni. Okay. Because it's, you know, like, like, you know, not good. Mm-hmm. But if they're vulnerable enough enough to do that, then they're vulnerable to eat and comment and then you're vulnerable to enough to sit there while other people eat your food.

Yeah. And you're wondering, I mean, could you imagine the conversation, spiritual conversation after that? Right.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Naeem Fazal: Well, it's a lot more transparent, a lot more opening, a lot more trustworthy.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Naeem Fazal: Uh, you can trust the person's kindness because they ate your food and, you know, it wasn't that great, but they were nice about it.

Yeah. You know, so it's, yeah, man, it's a whole different dynamic. Um, I feel that's why Jesus ate with people. Mm-hmm. Um, so anyways. Yeah. No, I love it.

Andrew Camp: Like, 'cause like you said, like the food we bring tells a story of who we are and who we want to be. Mm-hmm. You know, whether it's an old family recipe or a recipe, we just want to try out and to have those people that will be willing to, [00:51:00] to try it with us and laugh with us if it sucks.

And be willing to say, okay, well that didn't work out. Let's order some pizza. Like Right, right. Versus playing the platitudes, you know, like Yeah, yeah, for sure. You know, there's a difference there, you know, and, um, it is a beautiful thing when we can gather and share, um, the beauty of the table and even work together to prepare the food.

Together. Oh yeah.

Naeem Fazal: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And then also, you know, it's like the whole, I love, I love the biggest able, I love the idea of it because it's like, you know, it's that whole passage in scripture where the Jesus is talking about, you know, the, the guy who throws a party and he invites the people and don't show up.

And then he goes, all right, then go to the, go to every, go to the go, get the MTS in one translation, says, go get them. Yeah, let's bring them, let's get 'em all in here. You know? Right. And, uh, even Jesus, you know, I mean, he healed the centurion. He says, you know. [00:52:00] I'll tell you the truth, and people will come from the east and west and sit at the table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Like, this table is always the biggest table for Jesus. And if you're uncomfortable, there's something wrong with you. Like Right. You know?

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Naeem Fazal: Not with the table.

Andrew Camp: No, no. But, you know, being okay with that discomfort too, you know, like, right.

Naeem Fazal: Correct. Correct. You know, being able to sit if you don't refuse to.

Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: You know, and, um, because it will be uncomfortable. It will be hard. It's tricky. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. For sure. Yeah. And that's where you were going with it, but Yeah. Like, it's this good discomfort, um

Naeem Fazal: Yes, yes, yes. And you're willing to do that. You're like, yeah, okay. And willing to, because I've seen people who have opinions about certain groups of people, and I've always wondered, Hey, but did you sit with them?

Andrew Camp: Right.

Naeem Fazal: You know, have you invited them to your house? Yeah. And, uh, I mean, the most uncomfortable people I, uh, that I can think of the categories I've, like, I've invited 'em in my house, right? Mm-hmm. Because a whole diff that's a whole different level. Yeah. Uh, of like, oh, okay. [00:53:00] Um, so anyways, it's, it's a, it's a cool thing, man.

Andrew Camp: No, it is. Yeah. And so for you personally, where, where are you finding beauty in this moment? Because I feel like we are inundated with bad news, ugliness or bad news, or just despair, you know, and whether it's personal, corporate, global, national, like there's a lot to despair over it feels like at times.

And so like, how do you keep the beauty alive in your own soul?

Naeem Fazal: Hmm. Hmm. That's a really good question. Really good question. My son and I were having a conversation a couple of weeks ago about, is humanity getting better? You know, and it was, so he's, he's a, uh, he's a, he, uh, he's a sustainability, uh, major.

Okay. And just talking about, uh, like how, uh, and I didn't know this, how the US sells its trash. To other countries? [00:54:00] Uh, I don't, I didn't know this.

Andrew Camp: No.

Naeem Fazal: Yeah. And it, we sell our trash. We sell, uh, our, yeah, we sell our trash, uh, and, uh, to other countries because we can, we can, uh, so they can take 'em to their country and get rid of it and, uh, uh, toxic fumes or the emissions or whatever, it's on their country, not on our soil.

Andrew Camp: Oh gosh.

Naeem Fazal: So basically we can claim, hey, we're pretty good in terms of, you know, leaving this, uh, maybe a cleaner footprint, but it's only because we just. Ship it out of the country, they take care of it, but as a, uh, but we're still part of the world. Yeah. And we're still part of this one atmosphere. Yeah.

Yep. So it's still coming back, you know what I'm saying? Right. Yep. But it's so interesting, right, in terms of like, is humanity getting better? And I feel like, I mean, I, I was making the argument that we are getting better. Um, uh, so what I do is, is like, you know, I look at the things that are going on in this world, and then I [00:55:00] see like thing people setting up for what's right.

Yeah. And I see people trying to make a change and stand up and, uh, have a voice, uh, even protest, do the things that they need to do, uh, to get the, uh, word out of what's happening in the world. So I feel like that's good, that what's really overwhelming is, is that there's, there's so much tragedy, there's so much loss in the, in, in the middle of that.

So. Oh, I'll tell you how I do it. I mean, uh, so this was a beautiful story. Uh, so look, I've been, um, you know, taking this book on tour kind of thing. Yeah. One of the things I talk about is breaking up with the, with your past and, and because our past sometimes, like I, in the first section in the book is called, you know, yesterday's Forgotten You.

Right. Uh, you know, you are still thinking about yesterday, but Yes, it's forgotten you. The, the, the thing about our past is that, you know, like if, if you don't really transform it or, or begin to transform it, you'll transmit it somewhere. [00:56:00] You know, it'll show up somewhere. Yeah. And that's why people who abuse who've been abused end up sometimes being abusers themselves.

Right. You know, so there's a, there's this thing that, you know, so if you've been, if you've had violence against you, you, you, there might, there is a good chance that you might. Be violent as well. Right. And I feel the world's the same. I mean, if if worlds and countries have been abused, they'll, they'll be, become abusers.

Yeah. And we're even seeing that sometimes in places. So, um, so in the middle of that, I think, oh my gosh, humanity is so broken. So the, the way I do it is, is I, I, I focus on the individuals that are making a commitment to break up with their past. Uh hmm. Like this one cool story is like, uh, I took a picture of it.

So, um, I, I give, like, I've gone to churches and I'll, I'll, I'll give them like this. It's a, it's like a, it's kinda like a, a, a stick. It's not a stir stick, but it's a wooden stick that [00:57:00] maybe it's like one of those things that doctors use, you know? Yeah. They stick out your tongue and go, you know, whatever that stick's called.

Yep. Um, but it's long, thick enough, uh, it's thin enough to break, it's thick enough to write something on.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

Naeem Fazal: And, um, so I just tell people, I say, what is something that you've heard through your whole life? Uh, and it's connected to your past, like, what is it? And so, and then at the end of the sermon and all that, uh, I tell 'em, okay, and so now we're gonna break it.

So we're gonna break this thing. And, and it's really beautiful being, you hear the sounds of things breaking and we put it, uh, we lay 'em at the cross or something. Or people take them just to remember this is broken over them. So one mom came up to me and told me, Hey, you know, uh, my son struggled with, uh, you know, um, you know, mental illness and, uh, depression.

And my dad, my dad committed suicide. My son and I just fear and she was crying and all that. And she said, I wanna show you his stick, his broken stick. And the broken stick said [00:58:00] he had written, there I am nothing. And then he broke it. Oh, I know. I was like, oh my gosh. This was so, um, powerful. And she was crying.

I was crying. And so, you know, I look at that kind of beautiful things where people are courageous enough with this kid courageous enough to say, I'm not gonna believe this lie.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Naeem Fazal: That I'm nothing. Because if he feels like he's nothing, the the adult version of him is going to be like, well, people are nothing.

Yeah. You know, and no one, you know, and so, um, yeah. So the, in the middle of that, I, I, I think I like the, the world and the media always says, look at what's happening in the world. And I've just gotta dial it into like, but the people around me, the beautiful people around me, I can, I can. Mm-hmm. You know, I can live in those moments because I will, I'll go mad.

Yeah. Go Trying to figure [00:59:00] out and try to feel the emotion of the world. Yeah. What I can do is feel the emotion of individual people inspire them to. You know, do the next beautiful thing, you know? Right. So that's, does that make sense? Yeah, no, I love, and that's what I gotta focus on. Yeah,

Andrew Camp: yeah. You know, and hearing those stories of transformation, seeing, you know, that's again, the beauty of ministry is you, you get to see the worst of people at times, but you also then get to see God breakthrough work miracles, um, yeah.

You know, in amazing ways. Uh, yeah. And so I appreciate it. Um, and as we wrap up, these are some questions I ask all of my guests. The first one's heavier and then some fun ones to, but what's the story you want the church to tell?

Naeem Fazal: Wow. What's the story I want the church to tell about?

Andrew Camp: Just whatever, whatever comes to your, you know, free

Naeem Fazal: association.

[01:00:00] Mm.

Man, that is a very good question. Andrew. What is the story I want the church to tell? Man, you got me stumped here. Hmm.

What do I want? Hmm. Well, I would say, um, so if the church was, um, the, if the, if the church, you know. If the church was God's idea, you know, Jesus' idea. So, you know, uh, I've thought this before, I said, I said this before, that Jesus died. So not to make us Christians, he died so we could become the church. So he died to create a community of people who believed [01:01:00] that God so loved the world that he gave his own son, you know.

Um, so what I would want is I'd want the church to tell a beautiful story of the love of God, uh, and to tell the accurate story. Of how God has always been motivated by love. Hmm. Um, so, you know, even Jesus turned that whole thing around. He says, listen, this is how people will actually know that, you know, pure picture of God if you actually love one another.

Right. So I would say that, yeah, the, be the, I would say that if I would, I would say that the church, if the church could tell a beautiful love story about how God has loved humanity, and that would be, that would be the story to tell. Yeah. I pray that the church would tell a love story, uh, of God and humanity.

Andrew Camp: I appreciate it.

Naeem Fazal: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Um, and some fun food questions then. What's one, okay. Yeah. What's one food you refuse to eat? [01:02:00]

Naeem Fazal: Oh my gosh. So, uh, it's a delicacy, but in Pakistan, but it's just so disgusting. They, they, my mom would actually make like, uh, um, like, um, goat hooves. Okay. Like they

Andrew Camp: cut the,

Naeem Fazal: like the Yeah. And boil them and that was a thing.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

Naeem Fazal: No, no, no, not, never, ever. No, that's not happening.

Andrew Camp: Okay. Not happening. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I've heard of pig trotters and pig feet, but not, I've not done, seen or heard about goat.

Naeem Fazal: Yeah, it's, it awful. I don't even know why. Why? Yeah.

Andrew Camp: It's awful. Okay. It's awful. Then on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever

Naeem Fazal: eaten?

Oof. Man, I've eaten so many good things though. I'm sure. Yes. I mean, I've eaten, like I love a great sushi roll that's fully, I mean, not just your basic Yeah. Like something that's like out there extravagant, but it's just put together [01:03:00] so well, love, love, love that. Hmm. Um, love, uh, good hummus, like, okay. Yeah.

Just the, and, and then with the right meat or with the, the right, uh, uh, charma meat. Mm-hmm. It's delicious. Yeah. So I got all kinds. I also love, and I love like a, like a street and Mexican street, uh, pork taco. Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. Those are just. Kish or, or a fish taco. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Um, that is just beautiful.

Okay. Um, yeah, that would be, I mean, yeah, pizza is pizza, you know? I mean, I like love pizza, but I think those, yeah. Yeah. Oh, ceviche. That would be okay. You know? Yep. That's,

Andrew Camp: they're speaking la Yeah, they're, you're speaking. Yeah. There, there, there are some things, man. I'm, I'm now hungry and ready for

Naeem Fazal: I know, I know.

I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah. That's great questions.

Andrew Camp: And then finally, there's a conversation among [01:04:00] chefs about last meals, as in, if you knew you only had one more meal to enjoy, oh, come on. What would it be? So what would be on that? Come on,

Naeem Fazal: Andrew. Uh, last meal.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. It's a fun question. It's a, it's, it's interesting to hear what people, people associate

Naeem Fazal: last meal. That's a tough one. Right. I'm not here to ask the easy questions. Yeah. Uh,

I mean, uh, I mean, I would probably, yeah, I would probably do some Arab, uh, like I would do, I would do some like shower man and uh, uh, uh, hummus and uh, peter bread and yeah, I think I would probably do that. Yeah. But you got me stumped though, because shoot, I mean, I [01:05:00] love a good steak too, so, but that's so, you know, that's, uh, it's like, okay, everybody's gonna do that.

But yeah, maybe that, that'd be No, that'd be, I appreciate it.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Naeem Fazal: No, yeah.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. Well, Naeem, I really appreciate this conversation. Uh, it's been really enjoyable, challenging, inspiring. Um, if people wanna learn more about you, your books, your work, um, where can they find you?

Naeem Fazal: Yeah. So yeah, the best place would be, um, I guess online.

Yeah. Um, Naeem fazal.org. But I'm on Instagram as well for sure. So Instagram, they can DM me. That's actually the quickest way to, uh, uh, to connect with me actually. Uh, so on Facebook as well. And yeah, the book is available on Amazon or anywhere books are sold. Yep. Um, but yeah, that would be the place I'm online.

Yeah. I tell people sometimes just Google me, you'll find me. Yep. It's easy enough for sure. You know, not [01:06:00] a lot of people have na pa as their name, so it makes it easy.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, yeah. No, and we'll make sure to put those links in the show notes. Uh, but yeah, do pick up em's new book tomorrow needs you. It's, it's inspiring.

It's a great way, um, just yeah, to think through how do we deal with the hurt and the pain and trauma in our own lives. Hmm. Um, so if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing it with others. Thanks for joining us on this episode of the biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food.

Until next time, bye.