The Biggest Table

Episode 45 (Joel Kime)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp. And in this podcast we explore the table Food, eating and hospitality is an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.

Today I'm joined by Joel Kime

Joel met his wife Michelle at Lancaster Bible College in Pennsylvania. After college, they were church planting missionaries in Kingston, Jamaica for one year. But since October, 2002, they have served at Faith Church first as youth associate pastor and then senior pastor, since July, 2008. Joel attended Evangelical Theological Seminary of Cairos University for his Master of Divinity and Doctor of Theology Degrees.

He and Michelle are the proud parents of three sons, one daughter, two daughters-in-law, and two grandchildren. If you catch him in a free moment, he will probably be playing with his grandchildren, reading a book, listening to U2 or REM, running with his dog, enjoying a TV show or movie with Michelle, or rooting for the Phillies or Washington Commanders.

He teaches introductory bible and theology courses for Lancaster Bible [00:01:00] College and Messiah University, and he is the author of Flourishing in Community, A Theology of Togetherness.

Thanks for joining me today, Joel. It's great to meet you. Um, yeah, and excited to have this conversation about your book.

Thank you so much for having me.

. So first, how do you maintain togetherness in your family when you live in Pennsylvania and you root for the Washington Commanders? Like

Joel Kime: Yeah, I'm, I'm a bit of an outlier in that, um, I was not able to get any of my kids to become Commanders fans, and I. I'm, it, they all like the eagles and they've had a much, much better go of it than me in recent years.

I could not overcome the culture of the, of the area.

Andrew Camp: No, I, no, I understand. But things are looking, trending upwards for, for the commanders, it feels like.

Joel Kime: Yes, it was a good, good year. So we'll see.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. So, yeah, no, uh, had a chance to read your book. Um, and so really enjoyed [00:02:00] it as you lay out this biblical understanding of what togetherness is.

And so I'm curious, you know, you've been in ministry for 20 plus years, um, both pastoring and now teaching in academia. Like what have you noticed when it comes to belonging and togetherness over these past two decades?

So

Joel Kime: much. Um,

Andrew Camp: yeah, I figured I'd start with an easy question, you know? Yeah,

Joel Kime: yeah. My context has been in the small church, I'm a pastor of less a church with less than a hundred people, and it's gotten smaller, to be quite honest with you, which is its own set of emotional struggle for me in, in the wider American context where bigger is apparently better.

Um, and yet I found that. There is the possibility for a wonderful togetherness in the context of a small church.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Joel Kime: Um, I don't know what we would [00:03:00] do if God dropped like thousands of people on us overnight, like he did with the early church in Acts chapter two.

Andrew Camp: Right. Uh,

Joel Kime: but I hope we would strive to maintain that togetherness like they did

Andrew Camp: mm-hmm.

To

Joel Kime: meet in homes around tables, to, to not just automatically go to, oh my gosh, we got to build a big building and we have to have all of this professionalism in our worship services. Um, in, in my context, we have seen that a small church really engenders togetherness. You are a known quantity when you walk in the door.

Um, you, it's obvious that you're a visitor. Um, yeah. Or if you've been gone, it's obvious that you've been gone. And that's a good thing. Um, it. You can't hide. No. And I'm not trying to be negative about larger churches. I think they really can serve their purpose and they do well. My, my son and daughter-in-law are involved [00:04:00] in a, a giant church here in, in our area, and it's been a wonderful, wonderful thing for them.

Um, they experience togetherness too. Yeah. Especially in the context of their small group. So, um, that, that is the first way I would answer that question. Hmm.

Andrew Camp: No, I appreciate just that perspective. 'cause like you said, you know, we assume bigger is better and if your church isn't growing clearly, you know, you're doing something wrong or the lord's not in your favor, like, you know.

Um, and so I really appreciate, you know, that

Joel Kime: I, I carry that with me and I have carried it every single one of these 23 years, every single Sunday, when you look at. The, the congregation, where are the people? Um, I, I'll be honest with you, uh, these past two Sundays, um, were the lowest attended Sundays [00:05:00] in my entire 23 years.

And I really, I can wrestle with that.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Joel Kime: And wonder if something is wrong with me and my approach to pastoral ministry. Um, I, I know where everyone is. I, you know, whether it's a vacation or a sickness or, um, sometimes it's just an apathetic approach to participating in, in that communal gathering or, uh, someone just saying, I don't wanna be together this Sunday morning.

Um, but you carry that. You, you can really, especially because of the prevailing notions of our wider culture, you can, I can really, I can get sucked into that kind of thinking, that kind of measuring of success. Mm-hmm. And

Andrew Camp: it's hard. No, it is, yeah. Um, having served in the church, those numbers, like they can be the [00:06:00] defining characteristic or even if you're not in ministry, like as a podcaster, like I get sucked into numbers too.

Yeah. Like, you know, how many people are downloading, am I trending upwards? Am I right? Seeing growth, like, uh, versus that call, like, what does it mean to be faithful? Right. And that's, that's hard. Yeah. You know, and it's a constant wrestling. Um, but I hear that. Yeah. But you've stuck with it. Um, and, and you're being faithful, which I think trying just you, you try.

Yeah. And that's all I think we can do, right? Yeah. Like, um, but you lament, you, you, in your book, you lament that this word together, which we've already thrown around quite a bit, like. That there's a familiarity that's breeding contempt. Like we talk about togetherness, like, Hey, I'm together with my friends watching a game, or I'm together with my friends celebrating the Eucharist.

Like, um, or, you know, I'm just together with people online, you know? Yeah. Um, so like, how, why, why do you think that togetherness has lost some meaning and what does that mean then as we seek to build [00:07:00] community?

Joel Kime: Yeah. As I write in the book, as I was working through thinking about togetherness and some of the, the early papers for my doctoral studies that led to the book, I started seeing it everywhere.

It, it, it's clearly a, a common concept. It's, it's not hard to define the word together. We use it regularly. Um, but I, I started thinking about how I. It can be overused or how it can be a assumed as a geographical collection of people, if we can just get everybody together in the same room, that that's a guaranteed solution.

It's not a guaranteed solution. We've seen that many times, um, that, that led me to think about what kind of togetherness do we really [00:08:00] desire? We don't desire just geographical proximity. We definitely don't desire, um, the really, really negative kinds of togetherness that have led to some of the traumas or horrors like war and, and, and genocide, and.

That's when I started to wrestle with what did the scriptures have to say? What can I learn from theology and, and some of the classics that have been written. Um, and, and that led me to think about what, what goals is it just, um, like my heritage, which was heavily focused on we just need to get people together after they die in heaven.

Yeah, that's, that's the primary thing. And, and I, I have moved away from that kind of thinking and to a togetherness that is much more about what I [00:09:00] call flourishing producing togetherness. What, what does God desire for us to experience in the here and now? Flourishing.

Andrew Camp: Flourishing. Yeah. No, and that's exactly where I was curious where you were gonna lead, because you know, when you mentioned that when the biblical authors talk about togetherness, it is always, um, leads to flourishing.

And so the two are hand go go hand in hand. Yeah. Uh, and so what can you expound on that help us point out some areas where, you know, because I think that's a, a new idea, you know, of like, okay, togetherness should produce flourishing, probably not just for us as a community, but for the world too. Um, and so help, help us unpack that a little.

Joel Kime: Yeah, I, I tell the story in the book about how I was involved in a, with a denominational committee, my denomination that was seeking to update our book of order, and [00:10:00] I. Never before in our nomination's history had we ever had a statement about racial justice. And so this committee that I was on wanted to have a, a statement about racial justice.

And we used the word flourishing in the statement. And when I was giving the report in front of the whole denomination at our annual conference, I, I had to go like, point by point through the report. Every single thing had to be, um, proposed, debated, and then approved by a vote. The whole thing took like three hours.

It was unreal. Um, but the one that got by far the most attention was that statement on racial justice and the fact that it mentioned flourishing. Um, and one pastor came to the microphone and just said, what do you mean by flourishing? And I was kind of taken aback. Hmm. Because to me the answer's so obvious that.[00:11:00]

Of all the things in that report that I thought I was gonna get questions about, it wasn't the word flourishing. Um, don't we all just kind of know what flourishing is? And I think I was naive in my assessment of that because, um, well, yeah, he, he might be able to define flourishing. That would get him pretty close to the Webster's dictionary.

That's not necessarily what we were talking about in that statement. We were talking about something a little bit more, or a lot more theological. And, um, I think what he really wanted to know is what do you think the Bible means, or, or what do you think the Bible teaches about flourishing? Mm-hmm. And he said something like, if you know, oh, well then I paused, uh, 'cause I was kind of trying to formulate a quick answer in my mind and I.

He, he didn't give me any time. It was a really brief pause. I'm not talking about like 30 [00:12:00] seconds or even 10 seconds. It might've been less than five. And I kind of had this answer starting to form in my mind, which I should have had an answer Much, I, I think I should have had it pretty quickly, but, um, probably because I was reading about flourishing.

I had done work in my doctoral studies about it and, and so on. Um, but the, the, the answer that was coming to my mind was, God's best. Something about God's best God. What, what does God best desire for the cosmos, for his people, for all of creation? But before I could get any words out, the guy goes, well, if you don't even know what flourishing is, then how am I gonna answer the people in my congregation?

Now, first of all. Nobody in his congregation is gonna be reading the church's book of order and ask him about this. That just doesn't happen. Maybe the, the rare, rare, rare person cares about that stuff. And yet I appreciated his question because I would [00:13:00] hope that once our denomination gave its approval to have that in the book of order, that the pastors of the denomination would then be wanting to promote it within the denomination, within their churches.

But

Andrew Camp: yeah,

Joel Kime: um, that doesn't happen either actually. Probably very much. But, and so I, I was kind of shocked 'cause he cut me off. He didn't give me a chance to answer. And a couple other pastors came to my rescue and one mentioned John 10 10 where Jesus is teaching and he says, I have come that they might have life and life abundantly or some translations life to the full.

This idea that God desires us to have the fullness of life, abundant life, and. That's not just after we die. It's not as if God is saying, I really don't care what you guys experience. Now. You just deal with life. But after you die, that's when I really start to care about flourishing. Right. No, he, he wants us to experience [00:14:00] flourishing now and the vast wholeness of what that means.

So in the book, I connect it 'cause I believe Jesus, um, as a good Jew would've connected this, and in his mind did connect this to the, to the concept of shalom. Mm-hmm. In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word that is so often translated, just peace. Like it's a greeting piece. Hey.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Joel Kime: But it is so much richer.

Right? So much more meaningful. Holistic in its understanding of peace, peace between people and God. Peace between people and each other. Peace between people in themselves and, and the created order all around them. It's not just when two warring parties strike up a peace treaty, right? It is wholeness, it's flourishing.

And we see so many images of it in the Old Testament, not just the promised land, the land flowing with milk and honey. The, the place [00:15:00] where, uh, God's presence is and he is carrying and providing for his people. Um, but after the exile that he will return them to this. Flourishing abundance. Mm. And um, in the book, I then talk about how we have to connect that to the word justice and social justice.

And for the evangelical fundamentalism that I grew up in, even the word social gospel that was. Promoted to me in my undergraduate years as basically heresy. Yeah. But which I've come to see is the furthest thing from heresy. Yep. And flows from, um, all those teachings, um, of, of Jesus and his heart for, um, the oppressed and the foreigner and the, the fatherless and the widow and, um, like in the sheep and goats parable.

Right. [00:16:00] All of those who are mistreated, outcast, abused, and and so on and so forth, that he is there. Mm-hmm. Among them for sure. So all that to say, the flourishing that matters now that that strives to eradicate injustice now that strives to help people enter into reconciliation with each other and God now.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, I love that. 'cause it is flourishing again, you know, um, we're so intertwined with capitalism and American individualism that, you know, when we hear the word flourishing, you know, I think the immediate response, and even in my own heart is like, okay, what's in it for me? Like, you know, if Jesus came to gimme the abundant life, then like, hey, that's, that's a good life for me.

Yeah, but that's not, I don't think, you know, that's more of an American dream, an ideal than, and maybe a capitalistic dream than in a cross shaped, [00:17:00] um, reality. Yeah. Because, you know, for us, when we promote the flourishing of others, that might mean that I have to give up something, um, and sacrifice, you know?

Right. 'cause you say salvation is a death to self. Um, yeah. And so how does, where does the cross, you know, as we think about flourishing , and Jesus came and lived this cross shaped life and invites us into this cross shaped life. How does the cross inform flourishing that can counteract this American capitalism, our American greed, and our American individual, you know, the American ideals Yeah. Are counter, you know, are counter to what Jesus may have in mind. Right?

Joel Kime: Yeah. As I was working on what is togetherness and how togetherness that God desires is flourishing, producing togetherness very clearly.

I had to address American individualistic [00:18:00] ideology. Mm-hmm. And how that individualism has infected the Christian Church and theology.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Joel Kime: And, um, how that runs counter to a cruciform theology. Um, so I spend a, a, a good bit of time in the book trying to describe individualism, trying to describe individualistic theology, and then contrast that with how cruciform theology, like you said, it is death to self.

Jesus goes before us as, um, the, the one who is willing to die to himself and thus produce flourishing. Together, right? With and for everyone else. And he's doing something that we could never do in the grand scheme. And yet he is an example for us about how we are to [00:19:00] live our lives. Um, even thinking about his baptism, it struck me in this, why did he need to get baptized?

He wasn't repenting, he wasn't a sinner. And yet it, it seems he gets baptized in order to join together with, identify with, uh, all of the rest of the people who were being baptized. There was this, uh, togetherness that wa was present even there. Um, and thus he calls us to join him in both baptism and crucifixion.

I. We might give of ourselves together so that many, many more can experience flourishing producing togetherness.

Andrew Camp: Hmm. No. And it is that covenantal relationship like you were just describing, like Jesus is, you know Yeah. That Jesus getting baptized is always this weird thing. [00:20:00] 'cause like you said, you know, there's no dying to sin and being raised in new life and, you know, that we're called into, but Yep.

You know, is, you know, that covenant aspect mm-hmm. Versus a contractual aspect, which you point out in your book.

Joel Kime: Mm-hmm.

Andrew Camp: Why is covenant so important as we think about togetherness versus a contractual approach?

Joel Kime: I think it's so important because. Contract is very similar to the individual individualistic ideal.

When I make a contract, I am guarding myself from any future hurt or harm. I am entering into an agreement with someone that says I am going to get mine. Mm-hmm. Guaranteed. Yep. And you're gonna agree with it, right? Yeah. Let's all sign our names and make sure Covenant is very different. Covenant says, I give myself to you, I enter into a covenantal agreement of, [00:21:00] of sacrifice, of selflessness for you.

And it's totally in the opposite direction. It is in the direction of togetherness rather than in the direction of individualism. And yeah, Jesus. Clearly is not just the example, but he leads the way in. Yeah. In guiding us to that kind of covenantal thinking. Mm-hmm. And, and acting, I should say.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, no, for sure.

Because then as we enter into covenant and away from more of an individual, like you point out the, A covenantal relationship actually asks more of us than an individual relationship, you know, that. Yep. The call is to more, you know, versus, you know, when it's just, if it's just Jesus and me, you know, there's very little I have to do for the other.

But if it is, if salvation is this holistic, corporate communal mm-hmm. Covenantal relationship, then that's an actual [00:22:00] higher calling. Yeah. Um, which again is hard in the American mindset to say, Hey, actually we're calling you to more. Right, right. You know? Yeah.

Joel Kime: I, maybe you've read the Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism.

Um, I

Andrew Camp: have not read it yet. No.

Joel Kime: It's, um, Daniel Hummel. Um, he does, I think, a fantastic job explaining the history of dispensationalism and, um. Some of its key tenets, and that was my whole upbringing.

Yep. Um, my, my grandfather actually studied at Dallas Theological Seminary under Lewis Barry Chafer, who was leading Dallas to become the dispensational hub in, in the world.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Joel Kime: And, um, the emphasis was always on individual salvation. Mm-hmm. [00:23:00] We just need to get as many people as possible to believe a, a few tenets, uh, pray that particular prayer and they're good to go.

Um, they, they were therefore exceedingly cautious and, and like I said earlier, even calling the social gospel heretical.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Joel Kime: Um, so even in the 1990s when I was doing my undergrad at Lancaster Bible College, like. Walter Rauschenbusch and the social gospel was something that, it was a dead theology. It was so focused on, um, the, the structures and systems of society that the end result was no one's gonna be saved.

That follows the social gospel and no one's going to heaven. And all that matters is getting people to believe in heaven. And I think that goes to exactly what we were talking about here. It, [00:24:00] I, I get the heart behind it 'cause it really does seem, um, of utmost importance that people would have an eternity with Jesus.

Um, but it, it went to this extreme pole of missing out on God's heart for justice in the world. My wife and I will often talk about how. When we were at LBC, we, we might have heard a little bit about how it's good to reach out to the poor. Um, but what's far more important is that they get saved in this transactional kind of, um, contract essentially.

Mm-hmm. And, um, it, it has been really, really eye-opening to read Ra and Bush and, and others, uh, proclaiming the mission of the kingdom in the here and now to think, [00:25:00] oh my goodness. Um, this is, this is God's heart.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Joel Kime: God's heart for flourishing is all over the scriptures. My wife got this, this Justice Bible.

And the, it, it was printed so that all the passages relating to God's heart for justice were highlighted in orange. And we're, we're flipping through this like, what, what I, how did we miss all of this? Right? How, how could our, how could our professors not have talked about this? Yeah. And it's just so amazing to me how, how we get in our silos.

Mm-hmm. Um, how that can shape our entire way of thinking.

Andrew Camp: No. And that's like the heritage of our faith is so much bigger than what, you know, I went to Biola and Talbot, which was another bastion of dispensationalism. Okay. Robert Saucy. You know, he, he, I think, you know, his seminal book was the pro, I think Progressive [00:26:00] Dispensationalism or whatever.

It's Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. And so, like, you know, Feinberg, you know, like, you know, so these, these great men of faith from, you know, the early 20th century Yes. Who were seeking to protect the faith. Right. Like the fundamental, you know. Yes. And yet we were, it was so little, you know? Right. You know, what we were exposed to, you know, and post seminary reading, you know, more, you know, and seeing mm-hmm.

The grandiosity of what the faith is and what, you know, charismatics can contribute in. And I think we, we miss out on what the togetherness of the body can be when we're just so siloed. Yeah. Um, and we miss the beauty of the whole faith, you know? Right. Um, and how to edify and, you know, work together to say, okay, what, what, as we wrestle with scripture and what Jesus is calling us too, like what does it mean to follow Jesus?

And yeah. Where do we pull from so we can actually understand that the best.

Joel Kime: [00:27:00] Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew Camp: And, and so as you think about togetherness, like it's a challenge and I think it's only gotten harder in the past five years, maybe 10 years. Um, like do you, do you think people actually want a biblical togetherness?

Joel Kime: I think there are many who do not. They. There, there really seems to be this, like you said, five to 10 years, uh, maybe even 20, I would say. Um, a, a move toward the polls. Mm-hmm. Where I, like a person can think to themselves, I need to be among the people who think exactly like me. And where, where we, it seemed in American politics in particular, but I would say even in the American church [00:28:00] had a, a large center of people with a variety of viewpoints who are willing to, to, uh, compromise in a healthy way to say, um, we're, we agree on the majors and we're willing to minor on the minors.

It has moved to the polls, to the extremes where, um, you, you so desperately want to be among like-minded people. Maybe out of fear, maybe out of, um, I almost, uh, I don't want to use the word addiction. I think that's too strong, but a, a really, really, uh, maybe an allegiance to things like capitalism or, um, manifest destiny.

Um, things, things, ideals that, um, keep us or are supposed to keep us safe. And those people who were [00:29:00] way over in the other pole, they're threatening all of that. They're actually enemies now and, um, they can't possibly be right. And we. Absolutely cannot be together with them.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Joel Kime: And yeah, I, in, so in my, in, in the book, I talk about purple church.

Yeah. And, um, my, my church is located in a very, uh, ideologically red conservative county. And what would be smart if I wanted to reach more people in, in that frame of mind, would be to act red and come out as ideologically, uh, conservative. I. Because I don't believe that is in line with [00:30:00] scripture. Um, our, I think our, our church has been affected by that.

We are smaller, right? Um, what we say, we're not red and we're not blue. We're a purple. We're a mixing of all of those idea, those two major ideologies in our, in our community. Um, and yeah, I don't think people, I don't think the majority of people want to experience that kind of togetherness. 'cause it, it requires a lot of, um, awkwardness.

Yeah. Um, it requires conversation with people who think differently than you, who look differently than you, speak differently than you, um, maybe even eat foods that seem very different from what your normal food is. You know, it's, it's diversity. Can be difficult.

Andrew Camp: No, and I appreciate your honesty. 'cause I think, you know, [00:31:00] again, the evangelical tradition, you and I were both raised in, like would've said, well, we just gotta preach the gospel better and people will be awakened, you know?

Mm-hmm. To what they actually want. Or like, if we just stay faithful, like, you know, we'll awaken something or, you know, try hard, do more, like do more programs, get more people in the church and, you know, um, but I think we are at this pivotal moment where it's like, okay, what, what does it mean to be the church in America?

Um, that can stand for justice, you know, and given everything going on. Yeah. Like our pastor at our church on Sunday spoke out against the immigration. Um, that's going, you know, ice raids and, you know Right. Tearing families apart, you know, like, and he's like, this isn't easy, but we gotta wrestle. Like, and we, you know, huh.

The heart of scripture is, you know, for us to stand with the oppressed,

Joel Kime: you know. Now, was it risky for him to do that? Like is there a segment [00:32:00] of the congregation who would've been very upset by that?

Andrew Camp: Um, he owned it. Like, he's like, Hey, some of you're gonna tune me out as soon as I say this. And that's, but I think he's spoken out.

We've been at that church for about a year and a half. Okay. Um, and he's spoken out enough about it where I think the people who are going to react strongly to it have probably already left.

Joel Kime: Gotcha.

Andrew Camp: Um, which is unfortunate, right? Like it is, yeah. We're nobody, you know, we want to be. You know, to use the scripture that, you know, I was quoted to so often if, you know, I got too progressive, people just want their ears tickled.

Mm-hmm. Right. You know, and, and so I think that goes, it's easy to get siloed, but Yeah. What does it mean then to actually work towards community? Um, is, is the harder task.

Joel Kime: I, I've really wrestled with that from a pastor preaching pulpit perspective. Like should, should I just [00:33:00] proclaim from the pulpit? A if, if I hold to a more progressive viewpoint, which I, I admit, I def I lean that way more than many in my congregation.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Joel Kime: Should I just, should I just put it out there? Um, or even in some of my classes, I, um. The, oftentimes we're teaching about things like at at at Messiah University. I teach, they're interpreting the Bible course and we go through the entire Bible in one semester. It's really fast, but it gives us the opportunity to talk about many issues that are happening in society today.

And, um, I, I think about what, what is flourishing, producing togetherness in those situations. Is it just to present my view, come what may,

Andrew Camp: yeah.

Joel Kime: Or, or is there some way to present my view [00:34:00] that engages the people who may have a different view in a conversation?

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Joel Kime: I hope I do that. I, I hope I say here's my view and, but I might be wrong.

Right. And, um, I, I wrestle with that because I know there are some, who was it? You shouldn't say, but I might be wrong. Um, for, for example, um, there's a, a recent book, evangelical Idolatry, um, where it talks about how pastors have, have done that. They, they have tried to create a place where all people can come together and talk, and therefore it hasn't really called out some of these idols Yeah.

In, in our American politics and culture. Um, and, and so I, I would definitely wrestle with that. [00:35:00] Um mm-hmm. Like the one example he gives is. Creationism. And that is a definite biblical theological issue for which there has been like the opposite of togetherness. Yeah. In, in the church you are, you either a young earth creationist or a old earth creationist or a theistic evolutionist.

And it's so hard to have people come together who have differences of opinions. Instead, they're doing that polar opposite thing where they're saying, no, you're, uh, you're destroying the gospel and you have to believe that Noah's Ark was a real, legitimate historical fact, or else people are going to hell because of you.

And from the other side it's, oh, my word, you're, you're anti intellectuals. And, um, in his book, the, the author, I think his last name is Michaels or Nichols, Jeff Nichols maybe says like, he wishes he would have been more, uh. Bold. [00:36:00] Hmm. In, in saying his particular kind of view, um, I don't know. I, I wrestle with that.

Yeah. Um. I think it is important for togetherness to say, yes, here's my view, but I could be wrong and I welcome a conversation with you and, and let's actually talk about that. Yeah. Um, because so often I. We're afraid to converse, we're maybe even afraid to entertain the other view, right? As if we're gonna get sucked in and change our minds, and then we're gonna be heretics and lose our faith and, you know, just

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Joel Kime: But can we have a permission and a freedom to talk?

Andrew Camp: Absolutely. Right? It is tricky though. It is so tricky. And I think especially as pastors, you know, I, I don't, unless you've been a pastor, it's hard to understand when you preach and if you say something and take a stand, the toll it emotional, [00:37:00] even physical toll it takes when people confront you and, you know, call you a socialist or call you a, you know, you are leaning towards Marxism, like, you know, um, the stress that that produces in a preacher's body is real.

Oh yeah. And, and there's only so much you can do until you're like, I, I don't know what to do anymore. Yep. Um, and so I, I appreciate your wrestling and how you know that the struggle is real. Like it's not easy.

Joel Kime: Yeah. You're, no, and you're a hundred percent right to talk about how it affects the body. Um, frankly, I'm, I'm on Lexapro and have been for a while and it just helps me deal with anxiety because there, there was a period where the anxiety dealing with, um, some of situations in the church was so much that my body basically said no more.

And [00:38:00] I, I couldn't. I couldn't stop the anxiety, the physical, the physical shaking. Mm-hmm. Because of the toll it took. Um, yeah. It's a real thing.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Yeah. So for listeners out there, like as, as we seek, as you attend church or wrestling with what it means to be together, like, I hope you hear Joel's like, the wrestling is hard and it takes a toll.

Yeah. And that, you know, what we hope for and long for won't come easily. Um, yeah. But as you've been a pastor, I would love to hear like, okay, what, how, what are the practices? What are the rituals we can cultivate that might begin to point us in the long, slow process, uh, of forming a community of togetherness?

Like what, where have you found, what practices have you found helpful in your congregation?

Joel Kime: Yeah. One that really comes to mind right away [00:39:00] is something that I learned from, uh, a pastor I mentioned in the book is a friend of mine, um, Bruce Ray from Chicago. They, I. They had something called sermon discussion where they would have their regular worship service.

He would preach the sermon, and then they, one of their classes would be this class where they would, anyone could come and, and they could discuss it. And so we started doing that at our church. We've been doing it for over 10 years. And it is a wonderful way to just get beyond the monologue.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Joel Kime: S sermons are almost always monologues, and that's not wrong.

I, I don't think that's an inherently bad thing, although the second idea I will tell you about in just a minute. Um, so when we have sermon discussion, I do not prepare. I. I don't have [00:40:00] like a, a monologue 2.0 or, and I, we just have an open discussion. What did you think? What do you want to ask about? Um, the, the people in the class feel free to disagree or to ask questions of me, and I can't tell you how many times they've pointed stuff out, whether in the scriptures or in in my logic or that is so much better than mine and.

Um, I like sermon discussion better than my sermon almost every week.

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Joel Kime: Because it brings in that variety of experiences and viewpoints and personalities and gifts. It is a, it is an example of togetherness that enriches the study of scripture. It's a community hermeneutic, and I can't tell you how many times people have felt free in those discussions to share some of their deepest hurts, uh, even breaking down into tears and on the other side, [00:41:00] laughing, hilariously at each other from some story or joke.

It, it has really, really helped. Give permission to, to talk about faith in a real way. Um, I think it has helped to bring the pastor off the pedestal into, say, I'm just part of the family. Mm-hmm. Church, family, like anybody else. And let's together wrestle with this passage and how it can apply to our lives.

Yeah. And go and do mm-hmm. As, as a result. Hmm. So that's one thing. I, I highly recommend pastors to have a sermon discussion group. Um, it doesn't have to be how I do it, but I, I just found it to be super, super, um, important in building that flourishing [00:42:00] produ producing togetherness. The second thing that I was referring to earlier is instead of a monologue, a dialogue, I'm just.

Dipping my feet in the waters with this one, I don't even talk about it in the book. It's, um, the writer, Ted Goya, and I might not even be pronouncing his last name right. But he, he writes on Substack, his background is, uh, in the music industry, but in the last few years he's been writing a lot more about culture.

Um, he, he talked about how conversation is the way forward in, in culture.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Joel Kime: And excuse me, he pointed to how, for example, uh, so many podcasts like ours right now are conversations. Yeah. And how popular that is. Think of Joe Rogan. That's all he does. Yeah. Um, and so. He had a line in this article. He didn't call [00:43:00] out pastors necessarily, it was just that anyone who's practicing monologue, he, he said something about how it's dying.

And as a pastor, I was like, Ooh, yikes. Um, yeah. Okay. And so I thought, how can I have a conversational sermon?

Andrew Camp: Hmm.

Joel Kime: Um, and so, um, I've tested the water twice. I've done it now in the last couple months, uh, where I invited a couple people to join me. And what what I do is I give them a topic and say, that's what the sermon's gonna be about.

And that's it. And we just talk and Wow. I'm, I'm, I, I'm, I get nervous about it. 'cause Yeah. I can't guarantee what they're gonna say. Um, the first two guys are, um, two young men in my congregation who actually, um, we, we've had a. A podcast together. Um, we just did one season last [00:44:00] year and now we're getting ready to start our next season.

Um, that it, it's, its emphasis is on the, in internal struggle that so many have, particularly focusing on, um, people who have gone through emotional trauma because of military service. Both of those guys were in the military, my son was in the military, and, um, so that we talk about those, those inner kind of things and I knew I could trust them.

Yeah, we'd, we'd done a whole season of podcast together, eight episodes and I. I had no doubt that it was gonna go okay. Well, not no doubt, I'll give you a little bit of doubt, but, um, and it, and it did, it went well. Then the second one was on Good Friday, where I invited three other Ministerium pastors to join me and just said, we're gonna talk about the crucifixion.

Huh? What, what does the crucifixion mean in your tradition? And they were, they were, one was, uh, Mennonite. Progressive Mennonite. One was Conservative [00:45:00] Mennonite from Kenya. One was a woman, pastor Pentecostal independent. So we had a variety. Wow. And just had this really cool conversation to at, at the community, the Ministerium community.

Good Friday service. It was just so rich.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Joel Kime: Um, those conversations have been so rich that there's something about having a variety of perspectives where you're, you're together even in the, the, the sermon. And so I'm, I'm really, really thankful for Ted Goya and his article and encouraging me that way.

Um, I don't think it's something that you can do, just. By asking random people to, Hey, do you wanna talk this Sunday? I think it does help for the people involved to have some sort of perspective or even, um, the evidence of maybe some, some deep thinking on the subject.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Joel Kime: But something I wanna keep doing.[00:46:00]

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Joel Kime: Those are just a couple ideas that come to mind. Okay. Um, I think there's, or even like we have a prison worship team where we're trying to work together to reach the least of these. Um, we did recently had a, a welcome team that works with, uh, refugee resettlement agency where the team worked together to help a family from Africa to be settled in our area.

Wow. Um, working together for flourishing. Yeah. Uh, it's, um, those kinds of things that I think are so transformative. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: And what I also appreciate, you know, in the examples you shared, your humility and your reducing the pastor's pedestal of like, okay, how do we help? 'cause if we really want a theology or a community of togetherness.

It can't be just a pastor Right. Working towards it, but everybody, you know, will need to buy in and have [00:47:00] a voice and be able to say, okay, what does this mean? And how are we wrestling with it? Um, yeah. And so your humility and saying, okay, hey, I may be wrong and help me, um, offer different perspectives, you know, I, I appreciate that.

Um, absolutely. Yeah. And I like the idea of this sermon dialogue of like, okay, how, how do we get people talking? You know? Yeah. And just to model it, you know, it may not. Yeah. You know. Everybody may not be represented, but you can at least model something that maybe others can engage with post service. Um, because you're right, like church needs to be less observation and more, you know, we always lament that we need more participatory nature.

Yeah. But are we doing anything to actually upset that?

Joel Kime: Right.

Andrew Camp: Um, and, and where like, you know, because this is a podcast about food and the table, like where have you seen the food and table, maybe even hospitality, like function [00:48:00] together to bring people together?

Joel Kime: Yeah. Oh, I, I don't think I could overemphasize the importance of food and, and table as it almost seems like they have been designed by God to bring people together.

They're just so, so valuable. Mm-hmm. Um. Stemming from the example of the early church in Acts chapter two, where they got together in homes, broke bread. Yep. Shared meals. Um, it was. They were the people who walked with Jesus. And, and so while I don't think that description in Acts chapter two is a prescription, I really believe it is a description.

I do think there's something deep there though, because they walked with Jesus and they saw what he did and how many times he sat down at the table with people and round tables of breaking bread, that there were those moments for [00:49:00] digging deep into the depths of people's lives and hearts and minds.

Something so transformative about it. It's, it is a wonderful expression of flourishing, producing togetherness. So in the local church, uh, you know, like my, my. My small group, every time it's, it's a meal, right. Just like that. We each bring part of the meal and around the table we sit there mm-hmm. And we just talk about our lives and our relationship with the Lord and we do it together.

It's, um, it's not something that can be contained by the table and the meal. Yeah. It definitely has to flow beyond the borders of that.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Joel Kime: But there's something rich there that. Flourishing, producing togetherness in the table go hand in hand. Um, I, I appreciate how in my congregation, we always have time around the tables on Sunday mornings, [00:50:00] um, after our worship service is over, we have 30 minutes.

It's not crazy long or anything like that, but it's, it's 30 minutes where we have a fellowship team that's responsible for preparing the food. And, um, having that time for, for connection is, I think just as important as the time spent singing praise, the time spent studying God's word. Um. Yeah. I, it it's a, it's a wonderful way to, to be together, uh, more than wonderful.

It's, it's absolutely vital.

Andrew Camp: No, absolutely. You know, and I think Yeah. How to see the table as a sacred space, you know, and how to then even in our worship, organize the celebration of the Lord's table Yeah. To be a practice of togetherness. Yeah. Um, that's not just a Jesus and me moment, you know? Right. [00:51:00] Um,

Joel Kime: it's so fascinating that you say that.

'cause right when you, right when you said that I, again, I, I was brought back to my, i the church I was raised in and a great church and, you know, I have nothing. My, my upbringing really was amazing, but every single time they practice communion, it was the individual emphasis. Yeah. Where quietly to yourself, you take the little cup.

You're, you're not really interacting with anyone. No. You know, a plate gets passed around down the pew and then you, you know, you get the bread, then you get the cup. Everything is very individualistic.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Joel Kime: The, the only way it had a hint of togetherness was everyone you waited and you all did it at the same time.

Right. That's good. Yeah.

And yet it, I think it was mostly this is time for you to commune with Jesus. Mm-hmm. Um, [00:52:00] and so I, I think churches could do well to provide some variety where, even in their practice of the ritual of communion to see how could we do this a little bit more emphasizing, or a lot more emphasizing togetherness.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Joel Kime: Um, yeah. Could it be a, a model? Round tables.

Andrew Camp: Mm-hmm.

Joel Kime: Um, emphasizing the, the smallness rather than this big room of people doing it altogether. Yeah. I I think that's really a key thing.

Andrew Camp: No, yeah. It's been something I've wrestled with and as I've explored food and theology and spirituality, realizing how much the Eucharist, the Lord's table needs to mm-hmm.

Guide, you know, and can be a foundational element of what it means to be at the table and community and, um, from everything from Paul's words of, you know, if you, he who celebrates this is an unworthy manner. Like I was always taught like, Hey, get right with God, it's [00:53:00] God's gonna smite you. Like, um, versus no, that actually is more about the communal relationships, you know, and like, are you in right relationship with your community?

When you come together around the table, like so Yeah. There's a lot of community I think that I, I hope the church can wrestle with, um, you know, and as we discern what it means to be a community of togetherness. Yeah. To, yeah. It's, there's a lot to explore that. I think it just takes time to wrestle and it's easy.

Again, the demands of ministry are so great that it's easy to just keep going with the flow. Um, but I think that, you know, and yeah, you know, this like, and so like if we're serious about a community of togetherness for flourishing sake, like what does it, what needs to change?

Joel Kime: Yeah.

Andrew Camp: Uh,

Joel Kime: you know. Yeah. I, I totally feel that.

'cause maybe it's my personality, but I kind of like it when I'm in a lane. [00:54:00] Yeah. In a, in a habit. Let's just do the same thing the same way every single time. And so in my congregation, when we've tried experiments, I'm nervous. Yeah. I, I forget things. My, it's like my mind isn't working right. And, and it's hard, it's awkward.

It's, yeah. Um, we tried one yesterday. I don't know, it's kind of gimmicky, but I think it, I think it was a good experiment in togetherness. So earlier in the year, um, we have a, we have a, a woman in our congregation who's a professional photographer. She took a, a photo of the entire church family, whoever was there that Sunday.

It was most of us though, in, in, uh, the front of the sanctuary. And then our, uh, worship leader. I forget where he found this, but you can have photos put onto puzzles and it was a a 1000 piece [00:55:00] puzzle. But this particular kind of puzzle comes presorted into, I think it was 40 little boxes of 25 pieces each.

And so each box has 25 pieces. It was like a five by five grid of puzzle pieces. So what we did was, um, before the sermon, we dismissed everybody back into our fellowship hall 'cause they're right next to each other. Yeah. And around the tables we had these boxes set and so, you know, it was like four or five people at a table and they're all working on their own little, their own little five by five grid of puzzle pieces.

Andrew Camp: Huh.

Joel Kime: And then slowly as they put them together, they started to fit them with other people's five by five grids. And I forget how many minutes it took. 15, 20 minutes maybe. We had the whole 1000 piece puzzle put together. And there it is, a picture of the church family. And then that led into my sermon about one Corinthians 12 and the body of Christ and how every single person is vital.

Um, [00:56:00] it, like I said, it is a little bit gimmicky, but I, I think it, it really emphasized. A, uh, figurative, symbolic reminder in people's minds that we need each other. We are together. We're, it's, it's not just the me and the worship leader up front who are the ones who are doing the work of ministry.

Everybody is vital in this church. So. It was kind of cool. Yeah. People, people really seem to enjoy something different that way

Andrew Camp: for sure. No, and that's, that's cool. You know, and maybe somethings feel gimmicky, but you never know. You know, and like, what's wrong with a gimmick every now and then. Exactly.

You know, it illustrates a point, you know, and I think, yep. My tendency in wrestling is always, well, it's gotta be profound and deep, you know, and like, you know, playing with a puzzle, you know, like, you know. Yeah. Like, but it may actually accomplish more. Yeah. You know, and, and it's a cool, I love it. I love the, the metaphor, I [00:57:00] love the picture.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, it was neat. Yeah. And as we begin to wrap up, it's a question I ask all of my guests, what's the story you want the church to tell?

I,

Joel Kime: I want the church to tell the story and, and maybe this is just 'cause I preached it yesterday of, of unity and diversity. Um, that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek slave, nor free male, nor female, but all are one in Christ that, um, there are so many categories that the world creates to divide us that we can overcome in Christ.

Yeah. And, um, yeah, I, I want the church to, to tell that story of unity and diversity.

Andrew Camp: Hmm. No, I love that. I appreciate that word. And then some fun questions about food as we wrap up. Just 'cause Yeah. Again, [00:58:00] what's one food you refuse to eat?

Joel Kime: Hmm. I really struggle with, I. Um, with, so I did a missionary internship, uh, between my junior and senior year of high s of college in Guyana, south America.

And fish were part of their, uh, local, local diet. Mm-hmm. 'cause they were easy. They could catch 'em.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Joel Kime: And for them, the delicacy was the head of the fish, in particular, the eyes. And so when I was staying at one of my pastor friend's houses, he brought this out for me and I was like, oh my, I. I, I mean, I did not want to be the, the guest who says, no, I wanted to be culturally appropriate and just suck it up and do it.

I couldn't do it. Okay. I just couldn't do it. Ugh. That was tough.

Andrew Camp: No, I can, yes. I don't know if I've ever done a fish eyeball. [00:59:00] Mm-hmm. We were recently at a Jamaican restaurant in Park City that some friends own, um, and they have a whole snapper dish and Oh, wow. And it comes with the head and all the, you know, and the eyeball was there.

And my girls were like, are you gonna eat it, dad? And I was like, oh, I think I can do it. I

Joel Kime: don't blame you. Yeah. Was it jerked, was it cooked it with jerk spice? No, they did this one

Andrew Camp: with like a brown curry sauce Almost. Gotcha. Yeah, it was delicious. That's, yeah. Um, and then on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Joel Kime: Hmm. Well, I mean, I guess I could stay on that Jamaican theme. I, when we were in Jamaica. We just, we loved so, so much of Jamaican culture and food. Yeah. I, I. One of the, in, in Kingston, it, it's just a part of the culture. On Friday night, everybody's gotten paid their, their paycheck for the week, and you just drive down the streets and there [01:00:00] are jerk chicken vendors everywhere.

Mm-hmm. And the, the smell is just Oh, oh my goodness. It's amazing. So yeah, getting jerk chicken from a, from a jerk chicken vendor in Jamaica, that was pretty, that was special.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, love it. Jamaican. Yeah. Jamaican food is, is delightful. Mm-hmm. Um, and beyond the jerk, you know, there's so much goodness there.

Yeah. And then finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in, if you knew you only had one more meal to enjoy, what would it be? And so if Joel had one last meal, what might it be?

Joel Kime: Wow.

My, my family always jokes with me that Dad will eat anything. Like I. Don't have much that I don't like. So this is hard, but I don't know. Last meal, I I, I might just go with some of that comfort food. Like just maybe, uh, I love [01:01:00] pizza with mushrooms. Uh, yeah. I might just go with that.

Andrew Camp: No, I hear it. Yep. Yeah.

Yeah. It's, yeah, no many people want comfort food and, um, this question came to me 'cause there was a book that came out, this was now 15, 20 years ago about, you know, they asked famous chefs what their last meals would be, you know, so everybody from Gordon Ramsey. Yeah. You know, all these top-notch and all of them, you know, they wanted their mom's home cooking, you know, wow.

Chefs who have access to everything, right. You know, that have enjoyed the best that the world can offer. You know, when they are faced with their last meal they want. Yeah.

Joel Kime: Oh man. That's just like, um. The Disney, Pixar Ouie. Yeah,

Andrew Camp: exactly. Yeah.

Joel Kime: And he gets blown outta the water by Ouie. That's awesome.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Well, Joel, I've really appreciated this conversation. Just appreciate Thank you. You too. Your heart. Um, and if people want to learn more about you, is there a place they can find, find you, or, um, you know, obviously order your book, [01:02:00] but, uh,

Joel Kime: yeah. The, the book is available on Amazon and through the, the publisher Fin stock.

Um, I write on Substack. I. Semi regularly and my, I blog my sermons@joelchime.com. Um, those would probably be the easiest ways. I mean, I'm on Facebook and, uh, the book is on Instagram. Okay. But yeah, those, those would be the easiest ways to find me. Awesome.

Andrew Camp: Thank you. No, do, do reach out. Um, do discover more of what it means to develop this theology of togetherness, uh, and how it can lead to all of us flourishing more.

Yeah. Uh, and if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or sharing it with others. Thanks for joining us on this episode of the Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food. Until next time, bye.