The Biggest Table

Episode 38 (Malcolm Foley)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp, and in this podcast, we explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another.

And today I'm thrilled to be joined by Malcolm Foley.

Malcolm is a pastor, historian, and speaker who serves as special advisor to the president for equity and campus engagement at Baylor University.

He has written for Christianity Today, The Anxious Spanish and Mere Orthodoxy. And he just released his first book from Brazos Press entitled The Anti Greed Gospel, Why the Love of Money is the Root of Racism and How the Church Can Create a New Way Forward. Foley also co pastors Mosaic Waco, a multicultural church in Waco, Texas, where he lives with his wife, Desiree.

So thanks for joining me today, Malcolm. This is, it's an honor and a privilege and excited for this conversation.

Malcolm Foley: Good to be with you, Andrew. I'm excited as well.

Andrew Camp: And as I was reading your bio, I was like, Oh, can I actually say that you're still It's special advisor to [00:01:00] the president for equity and inclusion.

Like,

Malcolm Foley: yep, yep. Until somebody, until somebody says otherwise, that's, that's what, that's what I am.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. Well, good. Glad you still have a job. Like, yeah,

Malcolm Foley: me too. Me too.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. As your, I'm sure your wife appreciates too. Well, I'm just going to jump into the deep end because I've podcasts you've been on and reading your book.

And so you hint at it. And so I'm just going to ask it. So your vision for the church in the book, and as you've expressed on podcasts, is a form of Christian socialism. So if our guests aren't going to engage with this podcast, we're giving them an out right away. But like, why, you know, how, why, why are you advocating for a complete upheaval?

And, you know, as good Americans, socialists. Is a bad word and so like but yeah, I think it actually you point to something deeper so like, [00:02:00] you know, why are you advocating for this type of way in the world for the church and How does it help us make sense of this day and age? We're in

Malcolm Foley: yeah well the main thing that I the main thing that I want to press for and I and I kind of narrate this in the book is that You know, I want us to see that the political, that the political economy in which we find ourselves, the way that, the way that resources are currently distributed and the way that people seek after those resources, um, it requires, it requires exploitation, it requires us to take advantage of each other, and it requires us to basically steal from one another.

Um, we're not, we're not told to think about, uh, and we're not taught to think about kind of where our resources come from. We're just, we're just, we're just encouraged to just consume them and produce them and that and just kind of go on thinking, thinking about those things in those, in those terms. Um, and 1 of the things that I want to.

That I want to narrate in the book, but also emphasize particularly for every Christian is that, is [00:03:00] that while our economy tells us that we're fundamentally either producers or, or, or consumers, the gospel teaches us that we're fundamentally sharers. So everything that we have is a gift, is a gift from the Lord, specifically meant to be shared with our, shared with our neighbors.

And so, and so I want, I want folks to, uh, invest in an economy. That doesn't cater to human greed, but instead, uh, but instead seeks to meet human need, um, and, and so, uh, so that will, that will strike people that will strike a number of people as, uh, as Christian socialism. Uh, it's a, I have a deep, deep sympathy with Christian socialism, but not, but not in, but not in the sense that I'm seeking to kind of overthrow the world economy, because the fact of the matter is, is that like, that's not my job. And that's also not our job as the, like, that's not our job as the church. Global, global, neoliberal, global neoliberal capitalism is just like, that's the way that the world, that's, that's what's going on in the world right now. Um, and it's [00:04:00] similar to the, and, and, and I understand that in the same category that I understand when, um, When Satan goes to Christ in the, this is in the wilderness, the second, the second temptation, he takes, he takes them up and says, Hey, look at the kingdoms of the world, all of their power and their glory, all of it's mine.

And I, and I can, it's been given to me and I can give it to whoever I want to just bow down and worship me. And it can all and it can all be yours. Um, like, I don't think Satan's lying there. I think it's true. He is currently in charge of those things. Um, and yet, and yet Jesus response to that is, no, like, we only worship the Lord and no one else.

Um, and so, and so, and so our, so our response to the temptations of wealth and political power and all those things is not that, like, it's not that. Satan doesn't have those things is that we don't is that we don't need them because Christ is already because Christ has already defeated the powers of principalities and while and while Satan may reign now, we are looking forward to the day [00:05:00] when, when, when, as, as we're told him, um, when the, when the, when the 7th trumpet blows in the, uh, Uh, in the book of revelation, uh, what the people say is that the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our God and of his Christ and he will reign forever and ever like, that's, that's, that's not only the day that we're looking forward to, but that is also the day that we're in now because the kingdom of God has come has come in Christ.

Um, and as the church, we have an opportunity to bear witness to the world that there is another way of living, that there's another way to think about our resources, that there's another way to think about sharing, um, that doesn't require the exploitation and domination of our neighbors.

Andrew Camp: I love your tie into Jesus's temptation because like.

I don't think I'd ever thought that like, oh no, Satan's not lying when he says he has all the kingdoms. Like, yeah, you're probably right. Um, you know, and, and that's what gets at the, you know, heart of your work is that, you know, [00:06:00] greed and this mammon, this God, we, we can't serve both, um, God and mammon. Like.

And so it has created, wreaked havoc on our, on our world. And you write that Mammon lies at the root of lynching, of racial violence, of racial capitalism, and ultimately of the very concept of race itself. And so for, I think for many listeners who haven't read your book yet, that's going to, you know, throw them for a curve because it's not the, the, the, the tale we're usually told.

Um, so what. What allowed you to come to this conclusion like where yeah,

Malcolm Foley: so my my my research Is is is specifically black protestant responses to lynching in the late 19th and early 20th century. So I spent a fair amount of time Kind of narrating narrating those those those responses

But after after doing that, I started asked the question. Okay. Well, where do these categories from come from? Why is this violence so what? [00:07:00] Why does this violence continue so much? And with and with such brutality? Um, and it, uh, and and and through encountering not only a number of other scholars, but also digging deeper into this history.

What I found, um, was what I like to call a demonic cycle of self interest. So it begins in our desire to exploit and dominate each other because we want money and we want power. Because that requires us to put other people in adverse situations, uh, we, we then have to employ violence to keep them in those positions.

Because most of us have consciences, uh, we have, we have to, we have to create narratives to tell ourselves, well, I'm not just waking up in the morning to exploit, dominate, and kill my neighbor. Like, there's something, there's other stuff, there's other stuff going on. Right? And so, um, and so the category of race kind of fills, fills that hole.

So, as the, as one of the historical examples I gave. When, when we think about racialized chattel slavery, when the Portuguese enc, when, when the Portuguese encounter chattel slavery [00:08:00] in Africa and decide to get involved, they're first, they're, they, they, they don't get involved because they're racist. They, they get involved because they, because they have markets they want, they wanna expand.

Mm-hmm . And child slavery is a very cheap source of, very cheap source of labor. Um, and so then as they then justify that wealth to themselves and to the pope. That's when these narratives of, well, these people are savages that need to be civilized. They're, they're heathens that need to be Christianized.

And so that, that then justifies for us the fact that we're making a whole bunch of money. But also like, don't think too much about the fact that we're making a whole bunch of money. Just think about the fact that, like, these people are inferior. We're the superior ones. It's really an act of service. Uh, that it's a, it's a, it's a win win.

It's a win. Yeah. It's a win for us because we get to make a lot of money. It's a win for them because they get civilized. It's great. Um, and so, but, but, but, but those kinds of, but those kinds of narratives are essentially smokescreens for domination and exploitation.

Um, and so one of the things I want to do for people broadly is that I want to expand our [00:09:00] conversations about race such that they're not just about the way that we think about each other or the friends that we have or things like that. I want us to remember that is that, that, that when we're having conversations about race and racism, we're having, we're having material, we're having material conversations.

We're having conversations about, about, uh, about a category that keeps, that keeps people from getting jobs, that keeps people from getting homes, that keeps people from getting food, like all, all of these things that are necessary for human sustenance. The category of race is meant to justify systems of economic exploitation that keep those resources out of some people's hands.

Um, and so, um, and so I want, like I said, I want our conversations about race to be deeply material. It's, it's funny because the, because the book, uh, in some ways presents itself as a book about race. Um, but one of the arguments that I want to make is that actually, it's actually, it's a smokescreen for a much deeper, for a much deeper issue.

Hence the fact that I make the claim that. Um, that race is a, is a child of, of mammon, [00:10:00] um, where, where, where, where Aramaic word that Jesus uses for, for riches,

Andrew Camp: for riches. Yeah. And, and I get that. And it makes a lot of sense until I think about like lynching and like, how, how do you then like get to a point where you're like, cause lynching stories like are horrific, like there's nothing like disgusting, like, and.

All of us would be like, nope, we're never going to do that. And yet we're less than a hundred years, you know, from this. So like, how, how do you go from saying like, okay, we, we want to make money to lynching, dismembering, burning people. Like that's where I'm like, I, that feels hard jump, you know, because I'll walk it through

Malcolm Foley: it.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, like how part of this is because, yeah, like,

Malcolm Foley: yeah. So, so yeah, the period of reconstruction from 1865 to [00:11:00] 1877, probably 12, probably the only 12 years in American history where we've had focused effort on building a multiracial democracy. Immediately after, immediately after that. Uh, so after the federal troops are pulled out, are pulled out of the South, um, federal troops who were there specifically to enforce the reconstruction amendments, the 13th, 14th and 15th amendment.

Following 1877, you have a period of unprecedented racial violence. Because what ends up happening is, is an, is essentially white southerners are, are essentially taking their, they're taking their power, they're taking their power back. Like, we've had 244 years of treating these people, treating these people like, like, like exploitable things.

We, we've had 12 years where we've essentially been forced to treat them as somewhat equals. We're not, we're not doing it. We've spent a century, we've spent literal centuries not doing this. We're not gonna, we're not gonna, we're not gonna start now. And so, and so you see that not [00:12:00] only in the founding of the Klan and in a number of other kind of white supremacist organ or organizations, but you see it in the way that, um, just in the way that labor is treated.

Even though technically the 13th amendment, um, abolishes slavery, there's that, there's that carve out of, unless you've been duly convicted of a crime. And so you have the practice of convict leasing in a number of states where, where, where essentially often, most often black, black men would be picked up for petty crimes.

Sometimes it would be, sometimes it would be, you'd be, you'd be arrested for vagrancy. That is not having a job in a place where people refuse to give you a job. So you'd be arrested. And then what these and then and then what these employers would do is they would purchase you from the state and and you would and you would then and you would then work off your work off your debt to that to that employer.

But the distinction between that and slavery is that during slavery, you function as both labor. And capital in this case, you're just labor. So, so, so, so in, so in some cases they would be submitted to [00:13:00] even, even more brutal, even more brutal conditions to the extent that they'd be worked to death, but then you could just buy another convict and it's, and it's all, and it's all fine.

Um, but all that's to say you, you, you, you then get ushered into a new, in many ways, a new age of a new age of, of violence. And so the, so, so lynching, lynching pops up in the late 18, in late 1880s as a, as a form of this kind of violence. And that's also the time when you start to get the narratives of, well, this is only happening because black men sexually assault white women.

And so, and so that then, like, that keeps people from digging in too deep, because they're like. Oh, well, you know, I mean, I get it. That's that's why it looks so violent. That's why these people are responding in the way that they do the crime that they're being that they're being accused of is so it's so it's so horrific.

Um, but folks like Ida B. Wells and others end up investigating these cases and they're like, wait a minute. Sexual assault only shows up in, in like a small fraction of these cases. [00:14:00] Lynching is actually just a tool of social control. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a way to, it's a way to quote unquote, keep the Negro in his place where his place is exploitable thing.

And the fact of the matter is, is that all it is, is terrorism. It's racial terrorism. It's you do these ridiculous things to these individuals to get, to get communities. to stay in line to get communities to stop seeking economic, uh, economic independence and things like that. It's, it's, it's why people would make the decision to do some of these lynchings outside of black churches because we know that's where we know that's where black people gather.

We know that we know that when they go to, when they go to worship tomorrow morning, this is, this is the first thing they're going to see so that they see this is what happens when you step out of line. Um, and so in many, so in, so in many ways it is. It is greed that starts that phenomenon, it's greed that continues it and feeds it, and it's greed that ends it as well, because it doesn't end because, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't end because there's some, some moral revolution.

[00:15:00] No. People are like, oh no, we probably shouldn't burn people alive in front of thousands of people. No, it, it ends because it becomes a national embarrassment. You start having editorials coming out of places like France and Japan saying, what are these, what are these Americans, what are these Americans doing?

These Americans are, are, are barbaric. And especially at a time when the South is seeking to industrialize and it's seeking Northern, and it's seeking Northern, Northern investment to have that as a, as a stain on its, on its reputation. It's not going to fly. So lynching ends because it's bad for business.

Um, not just, not, not just because, uh, like I said, there's some kind of moral revolution where we figure out that it's wrong.

Andrew Camp: I thought we had become the city on the hill finally. And just, you know, that beacon to the rest of the world. But really what you're saying is we're just motivated by greed and greed will actually compel us to do horrific things.

To the rest of the world and to our neighbors.

Malcolm Foley: [00:16:00] Yep. And, and, and, and it, and, and the violence, I mean, because the, the violence stops in or fades in that particular form, but the violence doesn't go away. One, one of the, one of the other reasons why lynching fades is because black people leave the South. So you have the great, you have the great migration where 6 million Afro Americans move from the South to the North.

But what, but what you also notice is that in the cities that they move to, there's still violence against their communities because they become, because they, because they become competition for labor. And so then, and so then because of that, they become, they become targets. The issue, the issue at root is still not, is still not dealt with. Um, and so that's, so that's one of the things that I want to press in this book. I'm like, if we, if we want to deal, if we really want to deal with this issue, then we're going to have to deal with it at its, at its root. We're going to, we're going to have to stop messing with the extremities of the demon and go for it and go for its heart.[00:17:00]

Andrew Camp: So given then where we are currently, you know, we're 30 days in to the new administration and we're seeing a replay and I know you've probably had this question and been talking about this a lot, but like, are we just seeing greed read rear its ugly head again? And that like. If something doesn't change, we're steps away from racial violence again.

Malcolm Foley: Yeah. So, so my thing is that, I mean, Mammon, so, so, yeah, I think, I think we are, we are, we are in an age right now. I mean, Mammon has been, I think Mammon has been on the American throne for a very, very long time.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Malcolm Foley: Uh, but now it's nakedly. Now it's nakedly on the throne, right? Just obviously. So, yeah. And, and, and, and, and, uh, like in a way that is, uh, if not, if we're not already, they're moving very quickly towards authoritarianism [00:18:00] and, and, and it is just, it is my, my fear is, well, it's not, it's not a fear.

Um, it doesn't just indicate it. I think the coming of racial violence. I'm just I'm just thinking about violence and violence in general. I mean, because for because for the rich to make as much as they do, violence must be used. And I'm not and that's and that's not just in the category of lynching. I consider I consider people being kept from the resources that they need to be able to live and survive, I consider that to be violence. So when we're talking about people. Yeah. Like when we're talking about mass illegal firings, I consider that to be violence. You're, you're, you are, you are essentially removing people's livelihoods from them. Um, and so, and so that, and that's exactly, , what we're seeing right now.

And the fact of the matter is, is that, um, And I think I told, uh, uh, you know, I told, I told my church this, that, [00:19:00] uh, you know, Christians do have an abundance of resources, uh, of thinking about how to live under authoritarian governments. Uh, it's called the, it's called the New Testament. Um, and so, and so like, like, like one of my things in the book is just, I'm like, look, in the midst of all this stuff, because I, I wrote the book about racial capitalism, but The, but the, but, but the logic of exploitation, violence and lies is also just broadly the logic of evil.

And so the three things that I call them to in the, in the second half of the book are, are I think the most significant acts of resistance. Now, given our current milieu, um, and, and, and those, and those three things are also just kind of basic things that Christ has called us to do. So as much as it might seem, you know, as much as, you know, as much as it may seem that the world is falling apart and all this kind of stuff.

I think part of it is because, uh, you know, we've, we've, we've gotten used to having a certain amount of, a certain amount of power [00:20:00] and we've, and we've placed our faith in that influence, and when it's gone, we're just like, I don't know what to do. And I'm like, we, we should have been, we should have been thinking in the terms that Christ has called us to think the whole time it would have prepared us.

It would have prepared us well for this.

Andrew Camp: But you mean the Sermon on the Mount and the Book of Acts might actually. They're

Malcolm Foley: actually relevant. Like there are actually things that we should read and then like believe that Christ is actually talking to us and actually telling us how we should live. As opposed to thinking, well, Jesus said that, but like, he probably didn't actually mean it.

Here's some other ways that I'll qualify those things. No, just like, just read what, listen, listen to Jesus. I don't know what he says. That's the whole book. That's the whole book, Andrew. That's all I'm trying to tell people. Listen to Jesus.

Andrew Camp: And I want to get to those practices because I think they're actually of vital importance, you know.

But, um, where I, another point in which I struggled, um, with your book is your book doesn't give much hope [00:21:00] for engaging in a, a worldly system. You know, you know, you, you give a lot of hope to the church and I do, you know, and Jesus. Right. But like, as we think about engagement and I was just sitting down with some people I'm getting to know from my local church, cause we're all figuring out like, okay, how do we respond?

Yeah. Like, is there a way to be involved without succumbing? to this demonic cycle, really? Like, you know, like, or is it, are we just, do we need to become Anabaptists and withdraw, like, which I don't think you're advocating for, but like, I, I feel like, I don't know the middle ground yet, you know, and I think a lot of us are trying to figure this out and wanting to do it in a way that is life giving versus succumbing to greed, exploitation, extraction.

Um, so is there. Away, like, you know, like,

Malcolm Foley: so a lot of the, uh, I mean, you know, a lot of the, a lot of the distinctives that I named in the book are [00:22:00] also like Mennonite Anabaptist distinctive, um, but, uh, but I don't think that necessarily manifests itself in a with, in a withdrawing. It, it means that when you are committed to these things in whatever space you find yourself in, uh, you will likely be pushed out of those spaces.

Um, but a lot of us are too afraid to be pushed out of those spaces to actually live in the way that Christ has called us to actually live in the way that Christ has called us to live. Um, and so

Andrew Camp: that phrase feels like it needs to be repeated because we're too afraid to be pushed out of the spaces we're in because we're too afraid to live as Christ called us to live.

Like, yes. Mm hmm.

Malcolm Foley: I think fear. I mean, really, I mean, really, I just, I just think we're, I think we're afraid. And so, and I think, I think, I think we're afraid to actually be beacons of the kingdom of God in the midst of the kingdoms of the world, because we, there's, there's part of us that knows. If [00:23:00] we actually do commit to those things consistently, people are going to think we're weird, people are going to think that we, I mean, first of all, we're going to likely actively undermine a number of the systems that we're a part of, and like, and nobody's going to like that.

Like, it's just like, I, I, there, there, there is the. There is the constant temptation, I think, for us to, um, kind of go, go, go along to get along. And that's, and that's exactly what, I mean, that's exactly what, um, exactly what the, what the, what the Asian churches in, uh, uh, in the, in the book of Revelation are also facing.

But I'll share this, I want to share this because this, when this, when this happened for me a few weeks ago, uh, it jettisoned all that fear. So, and this is like the sermon that I give to everybody now, once this, once this happened to me a few weeks ago, I was like, I have to, I have to share this. So, um, at the end of revelation three, well, we'll start with revelation four and five.

So revelation four and [00:24:00] five, John is John. John is taken into the throne room of God and he sees something sitting on the throne. It's got the appearance of precious stones, but it has a hand and in his hand is a scroll. And then in the beginning of chapter five, the lamb shows up in the middle of the throne, takes the scroll out of the hand of the one sitting on the throne.

And, and as I was reading through that again, I was like, Oh, so John is seeing the father on his throne. He can't say that because nobody can say that. Like nobody, nobody, nobody can see the father. The father's sits in unapproachable light.

Like there's no one, but like, but that's what he's describing. You can't say it, but that's what he's describing. Okay. Father on the big throne. Lamb is also on the big, on the big throne. Okay. End of end of revelation three. He's talking to the church at Laodicea and Jesus says, you know, I know your, I know your works.

You're lukewarm, you're neither hot nor cold, and because you're neither hot nor cold, I'm about to vomit you out of my mouth. So something about you makes me nauseous. Then he, then he explains it's because you're rich, and you say you need nothing when you're actually wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.[00:25:00]

And then at the end of that text, it's Revelation 3, 20. Jesus says to the one who overcomes, I will give to, I will give to them the right to sit with me on my throne. Just as when I overcame, I sat with my father on his throne. Now the image at the end of Revelation and also in Daniel 7 is that the saints will rule alongside Christ.

And you might think that what that means is that, well like, we're gonna have like little, little thrones next to Jesus. Um, and that's not what Jesus says at the end of Revelation 3, he says, you get to sit with me on the big chair, like with me and the father on the big chair, because, and that's why it makes me so nauseous when you folk, when you, when you, when you, when you get caught up in greed, political power, cultural influence and stuff like that, because it's a, it's a refusal for you to really take seriously what it is that I've prepared for.

For you, this is why you seek the kingdom of God and his righteousness. Because, because God cares for you, your neat, God will care about your [00:26:00] needs because he's got, he's got, he's got what he has for you. Why would you get so stressed out about all this little stuff? When you get stressed out about some multi billionaire who wants to take your job.

Okay. You serve a God, you serve, you, you, you serve a God who sits on the throne of the universe. A God who has promised not only, not only, a God who has promised not only justice, but an actual comprehensive justice, the likes of which you can't even imagine. That's the God that you, that's the God that you seek.

That's the God in whose shadow you live. And that's the God who you, whom, whom you obey. Um, and one of the, and one of the ways that Empires like to reign is specifically through fear as though they're the ones who dictate our circumstances and, and, and, and, and if there is 1 thing that the Christian ought to be able to be, it ought to be a person who is not enslaved to that fear.

Last point. [00:27:00] In Hebrews, um, the 1 of 1 of 1 of my 1 of my favorite text is when is when is when the author tells us kind of 1 of the reasons why the incarnation happens, why the son of God takes takes on flesh that, that, that, that, that, that as the Children have foot.

I have a question, but he also partook of the same so that he might break so that he might break the power of him who has the power of death, that is the devil, and also that he might free those who all their lives were held in slavery to the fear of death. Like, that's one of the reasons of the incarnation was to free us from our slavery to the fear of death.

Yeah. And, and, and, and, and so, and so as I said, as the, as the church, one, one of the things that we have to train ourselves out of is to train ourselves out of that fear because it's because we're constantly going to be assaulted. We're, we're going to constantly be assaulted by it. Um, and so what is it?

What, what, what, what. What vision, [00:28:00] what vision of Christ, who he is and who he's called us to be is going to, is going to drive that fear out of our, out of our souls and actually equip us to actually love our neighbors and to love our brothers and sisters and love our enemies as, as Christ has called us to.

Andrew Camp: Oh, I thought it was seven tips on how to be successful. Like I thought that was the next sermon series. Like,

Malcolm Foley: what? Or,

Andrew Camp: or we take a look and deep, you know, deeply into some practices you call us to deep economic solidarity, creative anti violence and prophetic truth telling. Like given that you just presented us this beautiful vision.

You know, like of what the world can be, you know, and what the world actually is, because as you tell us, our job is not to change the world, but to proclaim that the change has already happened, which growing up evangelical, like I was told to change the world. Like, of course, my whole life is a lie, Malcolm.

Like,[00:29:00]

Malcolm Foley: see, this is why I want people to read the book. Cause after you read it, you're without excuse. So, yeah, thanks. Great.

Andrew Camp: Now I have more responsibility. That's not less.

Malcolm Foley: We have the day, but this, but this is also the hope. Like it's, it's not like I, I. I'm really removing a burden from your shoulders because it, because, because as, as you look and this is what I think, I think one of the great things about the book of revelation, because like, I mean, you're looking at the church under, under Roman imperial persecution, essentially, and, and what, and the image that john gets is, hey, like, I know Rome's really scary.

It's actually even scarier than that. Like there are actually beasts with a bunch of heads and horns and all this kind of like, it's actually even scarier than it appears, but, but remember who's on your side, the [00:30:00] lamb who was slain. And the fact that that's true. Relativizes all of that fear and that's, and that's what like, like, that's what I want.

Like people get caught up in, for example, in thinking about racism, getting bound up in the, in, in not just the individual, but the systemic, like it's scary when you see how big it is. And so one of the things that I would say is like, Hey, actually, it's even bigger than that. Because Mammon is actually, Mammon is actually an enemy that Jesus, that Jesus names.

And that's what's actually behind all this. Um, so that, that is actually scarier, but. Understand that the resources that God has given his people to engage in that cosmic battle are, are, are, are, are resources, the likes of which that you haven't that you that you haven't thought to tap into and yet they are.

And yet there are resources that are greater than anything that you could have that you could imagine too. Um, and so you don't have to. feel like you've got to change our global economic [00:31:00] system because that's not what he's called the church to do. What he's called the church to do is to be, is to be an invitation to the world, to a new way, to a new way of life.

And people are going to find new ways to exploit and dominate each other because that's what there's, this is what, that's what sin is going to do. But we have an opportunity, like I said, to, to, to, to, to show the world that there's, that there's another way, that there's another way to live. And that's, and that's an invitation, and that's an invitation to the world, not a, not a judgment of it, not a withdrawal from it, um, but a, but a necessary invitation, because we want, because we want people to, we want people to experience this joy and this peace and this power along with us.

Andrew Camp: Right. No, but the invitation is. Anti American dream.

Malcolm Foley: Yeah, it is.

Andrew Camp: Like, you know, like, so yes, you're taking a burden off of us, but you're also, the [00:32:00] invitation, which rightfully so, like it resonates deeply, is not what we're usually told. And so like, like, as you said, we don't need to just break down the system.

We need a whole new creative imagination to think of how to actually be Jesus followers. Yeah. Like, and so like, you know, deep economic solidarity, that sounds nice, but like to actually do that, like that requires a deep imagination within the church and breaking down systems in the church that, you know, I, you know, I'm not employed by a church.

My wife, my family and I, we attend a church. We like our church. But to, like, talk about deep economic solidarity, creative anti violence, and prophetic truth telling, like, those are still systems that I am not in control of and, you know, some of my, most of my listeners aren't in control of, you know, and so it's trying to shape this life.

How do we actually shape a life like this, given [00:33:00] when we feel powerless?

Malcolm Foley: Yeah. So, so it's one of the reasons why I wanted to, um, I wanted to frame those three things. In some, in some relatively simple way. So I'll, so let me, I'll talk through kind of each of those, each of those 3.

so on the, on the deep economic solidarity point, 1 of the points I want to make, especially in that chapter is that the opposite of greed is not necessarily generosity just because generosity can very easily turn into paternalism.

It can very easily turn into, well, look at all this that I have, you have so little, let me part, part ways with some of what I have out of my own magnanimity, uh, and I, I can remain in the position of giver, you're in the position of receiver, then we can go on with our lives.

And that's not the way that Christ gave to us. He actively became one of us so that he might bring us up to where he to where he is. Um, that is, this is, we're talking about solidarity for the purpose of uplift, but not just uplift, but with the goal. Uh, as [00:34:00] as Paul will say in 2nd Corinthians 8, when he's talking about the relationship between Corinthians and Macedonians, the goal is equality.

So, and it's like, it's sharing for that, for that purpose. It's sharing for the purpose that everybody has everything that they need. And as an example of that, you have the church in Acts. In Acts 2, after the Spirit descends on the people of God, they're devoted to four things. Devotion to the Apostles teaching, eating together, prayer, and the fellowship.

And the fellowship, koinonia, otherwise it's variably translated as fellowship, participation, sharing. Well, the question is like, what are they sharing? Well, what we're told in the text, they're sharing their material goods. They're meeting each other's material needs. And in chapter four, we're told that, that, that God's grace was so powerfully at work among them, that there were no needy people in their midst, that the physical manifestation of God's grace was the fact that there were no needy people in their midst, not because they kicked the needy out, but because when the needy came in, the community gathered around to meet those, [00:35:00] to meet those needs, that's not Like that's, that's not like an idiosyncrasy of the early church.

Like that's the way that the Christian community is necessarily supposed to look. One of the primary witnesses of the Christian church is supposed to be its economic witness. Um, and, uh, and I think that, you know, I think one of the things that's been diluted is what is what we think the witness of our community is.

Um, and, and. And, and what we see in Acts 2 and Acts 4 is in many ways a fulfillment of Deuteronomy 15 when God set up this economic system for his people and he's like, Hey, if you do all the things that I command you, there won't be any poor people in your midst. Uh, because, because there's, because, because this structure will be in place.

But he also says in that chapter, don't harbor, because this is, this is the chapter with the Jubilee. He says don't, if, if someone comes to you in need, don't harbor the wicked thought. Well, the year of Jubilee is coming, so I don't have to do anything. Because he's like, I don't [00:36:00] care if there is a just system, you both individually and communally have a necessary commitment to the needy in your, to the needy in your midst.

Um, and so, and so this is, this is, this is my response to people who are, who are, who, who, um. Might be against, uh, no, the, the government caring for the poor in any way, because that's what the church is supposed to do. I want everybody to care. I want everybody to care for the poor and the needy. And even if they don't, I still have that responsibility, even if I, whether they do or they don't.

I, I and my community still, still have that responsibility as a matter of fact, that ought to be that, that ought to be our 1st, our 1st, our 1st financial, um, priority. And so if we're, if we're looking at church budgets and stuff, it's the, it's the, it's asking the question, okay, like, how. And are we working towards, are we, are we working towards a [00:37:00] situation where we see the church primarily as a redistributive entity that when I'm giving to this community, what I'm especially giving to is, is it.

Is a redistribution among the people who, who have needs such that we're building a community where there is a need. Um, and then if that's happening in my community, how am I then sharing that with other, with, with, with not only other Christian communities in my midst, but how is that also bleeding, bleeding into the city, uh, bleeding into the city in which I find myself.

Um, but the first step, like I said, I think I, I think the first step is for you to get it in those, in those smaller communities, because then, then that ethos can, can over, can overflow. Hmm.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. A little yeast leavens the whole dough. Right. You know? Yeah. Like, it does take a small work and it does take people committing to saying, okay, no, there's gotta be a different way of being.

Yeah. You know, in the midst of the chaos or in the midst of whatever circumstances we find ourselves in.

Malcolm Foley: I guess that was just, and I guess [00:38:00] that was just, that was just the economic solidarity point. Economic solidarity,

Andrew Camp: yeah. Because then, then you call us to creative anti violence, which is like, well, I guess church has got to get rid of their security teams, like, you know, like, which I've always had a problem with.

Malcolm Foley: Oh, man. And this is, and this is the most controversial, I really do think this is actually the most controversial point. Really? Because Over, over

Andrew Camp: economic solid

Malcolm Foley: Because you're asking I know! That's what I thought! I didn't think this was I What really makes people angry, especially on Instagram, Uh, is when I Is Is like I mean, it's not just the stuff against the rich, because people really want to be rich, so anything I say about the rich Yeah.

They're just like, You're, you're, you're speaking against my imagined future state. Um, but

Andrew Camp: It's true. But I'm one good decision away from my millions.

Malcolm Foley: Exactly right.

Um, but the violence thing, like whenever, like, like, like, like when I can really strongly say that there is that that the Christian ought have no involvement in lethal violence, the first response is, well, [00:39:00] what about this random situation where I think that the only proper response in this situation is to kill somebody?

And my, and my response to that is like, what, what kind of, what kind of moral imagination meets with the words of Christ and thinks, well, here are some exceptions, no, no, no, no. Like the first, the first way that we ought to think is, okay, well, this is the way that Christ has called me to live. I, I can't imagine what I would do in this situation, but I need to trust you Lord, Holy Spirit to be able to help me figure out how to be obedient to you in those, in those moments, because, because the thing that is most important to me is that I'm obedient to the Lord.

Um, and so, and so the point about the creative anti violence point is that you know, I, I, um, I don't I don't, I don't necessarily use the language of nonviolence because it can suggest to folks that it's just the refusal to engage in violence. Right? Um, I use the word anti to, to, to basically indicate that, um, that our goal is not [00:40:00] just to not engage in that violence, but to actively undermine the violence that our brothers, sisters and neighbors are subjected to, um, and so, um, because, uh, you know, as I think about the, um, uh, the Westminster Catechism has, has, has when, uh, when they refer to each of the, each of the commandments. There are the sins forbidden, and then there are the duties, the duties required. Um, and with the Sixth Commandment, Thou shalt not murder, in the, in the duties required, it's, it, it, it basically requires us to, to, to, to, to, to endeavor for the preservation of the lives of ourselves and, and, and others.

That is, it's not enough for me to just not kill you, like I have to actively support. your life, uh, which, which is also biblically the definition of love. Um, and, and, and I'm not just called to love my neighbor and my brother and sister. I'm also called to love [00:41:00] my enemies, which means, and, and this is, and this is one of the things I press in the book that love is necessarily a material relationship. And it extends even to our enemies.

I think about at the, at the, at the end of Romans 12, not only does Paul tell us not to, not to seek revenge, but to leave room for the wrath of God. But then he says, if your enemy is hungry, not that you starve them, your enemy's hungry, you give them something to eat. Your enemy's thirsty. You give them something to drink. Um, and so, uh, given those texts, there is nothing in there that gives me the leeway to think that love of my neighbor is going to mean killing them. Like that's just when I see the scriptures, that's like the very simple argument is that like, I just, I don't, I don't see any room in there for me to interpret killing my neighbor as an act of love. I just don't. Um, and so.

Um, and so, yeah, it's going to require creativity because we are bred in a society of violence [00:42:00] that sees that, I mean, I was named after Malcolm X. And so when I, when I hear his speeches, um, they're, they're, they're really compelling because they're just so rational. Somebody comes at you, you put them down. Like it just, you're, you're, you're worth protecting. So protect yourself. I'm like, Oh, that makes, it makes so much sense. But it's not what Jesus said.

Andrew Camp: No, right. Yeah, no.

Malcolm Foley: So, you know, so that's that's challenging. That's challenging for a lot of folks. And we can talk about that, too.

But then last, briefly, the prophetic truth telling thing. Even especially now, we are constantly surrounded by lies and, um, and race is one of those things, but it's a lie for a particular purpose. Um, and, and so, and so we have to be a people who are deeply committed to telling the truth, even in situations where, um, where, where people [00:43:00] don't want to hear it. Um, but, but, but, but if we really do believe, uh, that the, that the truth actively sets people free, um, then we have to be a people committed, committed to that, to that truth, not only telling the truth about ourselves, um, but also telling the truth about the world in which we find ourselves. Um, and so when we know that greed is on the throne, we have to be willing to say greed it appears to be on the throne.

So like, you can't mince words about it, you just got to tell the truth, um, tell the truth and shame the devil. So that's, so, so, so that's in a nutshell, those are, I think, some of the simple things that I'm trying to call it. Simple things. Remind us

Andrew Camp: to. Yeah. And to remind listeners, when you talk about violence, you're not just talking about physical violence, you're talking psychological violence.

Loss of jobs, hunger, you know, like, you know, it's not enough just to take away guns. It's, it's, you know, how you said, love is a material act. And so it's making sure my neighbors, [00:44:00] my community has access to food, has access to housing, has access, you know, and I think, you know, food insecurity and housing, you know, it's one thing you, you latch on to the two

Malcolm Foley: things I named.

Yup. Uh, because, because those are, because, because the examples of love that are given, especially throughout the New Testament. Are like, if your brother or sister doesn't have food or clothing shelter, like that, you don't just pray for, you don't just pray, go be warm and well fed, like you figure out ways to get them food and clothing and shelter.

Um, and those are, and those are like, those are very, those are very basic needs that we as church communities, we can, we can set that as a priority. I want to make sure that everybody want to make sure that not only everybody in my, in my midst can eat. But are there ways that I can make sure that everybody in my city can eat like, like those, like those, those kinds of those, those are the kinds of things that we ought to be using our creative energies for, um, and they're very [00:45:00] material.

They're material ways for us to love for us to love our neighbors and Christ has called us to do two things to love the Lord, our God with all our hearts, soul, mind and strength and love our neighbor as ourselves. Those are the only two things that matter. Everything in our lives ought to be oriented toward those ends.

Andrew Camp: You make it all sound so simple. And yet I also sense this frustration too of like, gosh, darn it, church. Like what, what's, what's the problem? Like,

uh, you know,

Malcolm Foley: I know, sorry. It comes out, it comes out. This is also how I preach too, but I'm just like, I'm just, but, but, but, but part of the writing of this book is that. You know, there has been a veil that has been essentially placed over the people of God, a very thick veil where people don't think in those simple terms.

They're encouraged to think that everything is so much more complicated than that. And, and that, and that's what our political economy has in many ways done to us. I talk about this with the [00:46:00] Especially the neoliberal and financialized elements of it is that it, it obscures so many elements of, of our, of our, of our interdependence.

Um, and, and, and I want to remind, I want to remind people of how, of how, of how much our, our lives are intertwined with one another. Um, but, but, but, but I also want to kind of tear that, tear that veil. And have people recognize that, like, yes, we spend so much energy trying to not appear to be racist. Um, but like, but what's really important to me is that we're not actually greedy.

We're actually going to deal with a lot of other things too. Um, when we, when we don't see everything that we have as something to just be held on to such that everybody we come into contact with is. threat. Yeah. When, when, when, when, when that fundamentally changes about us, then we'll realize a number of other [00:47:00] ways that we're exploiting and dominating our neighbors.

Um, So you're

Andrew Camp: saying that it's easier for the church to talk about racism than it is to talk about greed.

Malcolm Foley: One million percent. There are people have, people have racial reconciliation Sundays and stuff. People don't have anti greed Sundays. And it's the, and it's the sin, and it's the sin that Jesus talks about the most.

Andrew Camp: Yep.

Malcolm Foley: Exactly.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. There's, I don't know what else to say. Like,

so, so I just, I,

Malcolm Foley: yeah,

Andrew Camp: go ahead. Please. And so I'm curious, like, cause you're a pastor too. So you're not just writing. You're actually trying to engage with people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Challenge them to live this out. So like, obviously each community is different. So like, what works for you in Waco, Texas will not work for my community in Flagstaff.

But [00:48:00] I'm curious, like, Yeah. For our listeners, like, how is this manifesting itself in, in your church as you're seeking to shepherd a people? And I realize Yeah. That's a long, hard work and it may never be, you know, but, you know, I'm just, I'm curious like what, what it looks like for you as you pastor.

Malcolm Foley: The first step is to, the first step is to get people much more comfortable with, uh, asking for help.

Um, Because one of the ways that neoliberal capitalism kind of malforms us is that, uh, it pushes us to think about self sufficiency as the, as our primary goal. I really don't ever want to be a burden. I want to be able to do all this stuff by myself. And, uh, and that's just not the way that the body of Christ is meant to operate.

Um, in, in the text that where, where Jesus is talking about, uh, about greed, this happens in, uh, this particular text, I believe it shows up in each of the synoptic gospels. But basically it says that anybody who gives up land, father, [00:49:00] brother, sister, all these things for my sake, will gain those same things hundredfold in this life.

Persecution, uh, and eternal life in the life to come. Um, and, and, and what I take that text to mean is that you, whatever you give up for the kingdom, you regain a hundred fold in joining with the Christian community because you gain the resources of that community. And so and so and so you gain resources that you could never have imagined because you are now linked into you're now linked into a family.

So when you have when you're when you're in a job where, uh, where, like, your next step would require you. Um, essentially to maybe dominate or exploit your neighbor or whatever, like a lot of people will go through the thought process of, well, I'm the only one who cares about my family and the only way for me to keep this job is for me to do this thing.

And, and 1 of the comforts that [00:50:00] Christ offers is actually, I'm binding you to a community where you are actually not the only person who cares about your family. You got a community of people who care about your family. So if you need to make a decision, so if you need to make a decision in obedience to me, that's going to get that, that's, that's essentially going to force you out of this job, that's fine because I have, cause I have you covered. And one, and one of the ways in which I have you covered is through the people of God. So I think about this in, in the, uh, in the first few centuries, there were a number of Uh, Christians in the, there were a number of thinkers in the church who pressed, Hey, um, if you, if you're gonna be a Christian, you can't be in the military.

And so and so, when folks in the military would be converted, like they'd be encouraged to leave the, leave the military and you, and you've got folks where your entire life. revolves around the military. And so you're like, well, you want me to give up like my livelihood and all that kind of stuff? And they're like, yeah, you're in this community.

We'll, we'll, we'll support you and stuff like that, but be obedient to the, be obedient to the Lord. [00:51:00] Because, because what, because one of the, one of the primary functions of this community that we're building is a, is a, is a community that especially supports you when you end up making those costly decisions.

Uh, you're not just kind of left out in the cold. Christ has actually made provision for you in this, in this community. And so, but, but in order to become those kinds of communities, we also have to be communities that are, that are willing to, that are willing to ask for help because one of the reasons, one of the things that we do when we don't, um, and seek self sufficiency in, in just kind of the single minded way we, we, we refuse to give others the opportunity to love us and, and, and, and if we're to be, I said, communities where, um, as Jesus says, you'll, you'll, you'll know that the world will know that you're my disciples by your love for one another.

Uh, we essentially refuse one another the opportunity to actually express [00:52:00] that. Um, and so it begins, it begins there. Um, and then, and then, and then we think through the fact that, hey, everything that I have, um, is meant to be shared. There are things that my brother or sister has that I need. There are things that I have that they need.

So we need to be, so we need to be engaged in this constant exchange, which is what equality is. Equality is not just a state. It's this, it's, it's a, it's a relationship of consistent exchange back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. Um, and so those are the kinds of like, that's the kind of training that our churches need to go through.

That's also not like, that's also a part of part of training in non, uh, in nonviolence to that. We think about ways that we can ways that we can resolve. the problems in our midst through, through that, through that sharing. Um, like all of those are seemingly little things, but they, but they, but they reshape, they kind of reshape and retrain us in, I think, [00:53:00] ways that, that are much more Christ like.

Andrew Camp: No, I love that of just looking towards their community and seeing, you know, if this community that God has given us through his son, like, if we are called into it, it will be a reciprocal love. But where, if I focus solely on my family, You know, I'm going to hoard and I'm going to withdraw, you know, be an order of loves that, you know, we need to talk about versus, you know, maybe, maybe we

Malcolm Foley: should.

Oh, yeah. Like, I mean, and this is something, you know, I'm really thankful. I'm really, really thankful to have a church where, um, I mean, you know, I, I could say some of this stuff in some churches and just be run out of the, just be run out of the place. Um, but, but I have a, but I have a community that I, that I love that hears these things and they're like, oh, yeah, like, that is what Jesus said.

We should probably figure out how to make that work. Um, but I think [00:54:00] it's also important to note that, I mean, my hope is not in that particular community. My hope is, my hope is rooted in the fact that, like, Christ has actually told us to do these things and Christ doesn't tell us to do anything that he hasn't equipped us.

That he hasn't promised to equip us to do, um, and so, um, and so I trust him and, and I trust in the, the tremendous power of the Holy Spirit to, even in these situations where I can't necessarily imagine a way forward, um, that's, that's where, that's where I go to, I go to the Lord, I go to my co pastor, my fellow elders, the rest of the church for us to think about, hey, this is what Christ has called us to do.

Let's figure out together how to, how to do it.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, I love that of, you know, going to the community and figuring it out, discerning together. Um, cause we're not alone in this, you know, no, we were never meant to be alone.

Malcolm Foley: No, no, [00:55:00] no, but this is what neoliberal capitalism does to us. It atomizes us. It makes us think that I like any, any successes that I enjoy are entirely because I worked really hard.

And any failures that I, that I, that I suffer, it's probably my own failure. I didn't work. I didn't work hard enough. I wasn't competitive enough or whatever. And I'm the only one, I'm the only one who got me where I am. And I'm the only one who can get me out of whatever I'm in. And all of that is so, it's also just exhausting.

It's so exhausting.

Andrew Camp: It's

Malcolm Foley: depressing.

Andrew Camp: It's depressing. Right. Yeah. No, it is. Um, I feel like we could go on and on for more and more, and we didn't even get to talk about food and hospitality, but Oh, right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's all good, because actually, it all is intertwined, I think, you know, and how this way forward and how, um, but as we begin, um, to wrap up, it's a question I ask all of my guests, and you've hinted at it, but I think it provides a summary, too, is what's the story you want the Church to [00:56:00] tell?

Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Foley: Yeah. Um, you know, I, I want, I want people to hear, uh, well, I want, I want us to be a community that trumpets the fact that in the cross, Christ embarrassed the powers and principalities. So where, where the powers and principalities of greed of power and all like, of especially diminutive power, where, where all of those things.

Claim to have so much power over our over our lives. Um, Christ by the cross Reveals them to be essentially powerless And so we have an opportunity to build communities that actually bear witness to that fact That where everybody else may be running around with their like their chickens with their heads cut off We're we're we're a people who ought to be able to as, um, uh, as, as, as we're called to in [00:57:00] revelation 13, after these like crazy descriptions of these B of these beasts, which represent empires, the call in the middle of revelation 13 is this calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the, on the part of the people of God. So are we people who are being trained to patiently endure and to be faithful in the midst of whatever it is that we might face?

Um, When, when, when we are known for our patient endurance and faithfulness, when we're known for our economic witness, for our devotion to the apostles teaching, for our eating together and prayer, even in the midst of, even in the midst of. Of chaos. Um, like I think that's a, I think that's a compelling pic.

I think that's a compelling picture. Um, and then when people ask us, well, like, how is this possible? We're like, well, that's the work of the Holy Spirit. And if you repent and believe you can, you can, you can get in on this. You can get in on this too.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, come and meet my Savior. Come and see. Come on. Come on.[00:58:00]

Awesome. I love it. I love your vision. I love your heart, Malcolm. Um. Thank you, man. You know, it is inspiring, um, challenging, um, but like you said, Jesus gave us a And so if he's called us to this way of living, like, it has to be possible. Yup. Um, and it's not through grit. It's not through, you know, just pulling up myself up by my bootstraps.

Like, you know, it's the power of the spirit,

Malcolm Foley: the mighty power of the spirit.

Andrew Camp: If he can raise Jesus from the dead, that same spirit, you know, lives in us.

Malcolm Foley: Come on.

Andrew Camp: So, um, finally, some questions about food because, you know, you know, it's just some fun questions to wrap up. What's one food you refuse to eat?

Malcolm Foley: Oh, food. I refuse to eat, um, ice cream.

Andrew Camp: No, our question is, if you love Jesus, [00:59:00] what's

Malcolm Foley: ice cream? That's the first thing. The first thing you care to watch. Yeah. I. And, and, I mean, the, the short story is I, I had a, um, had a recurring nightmare when I was about five or six, five or six years old, I would wake up, it'd be completely dark. There'd be no sound. I'd go out into the hallway right outside my bedroom, and there'd be a glowing neon green three scoop ice cream cone, and it would have, it had four arms, it would grab pieces of itself and throw them at me.

Um, so I was afraid of ice cream for a little while. I'm not afraid of it anymore. I just don't play games with it. So, I don't know.

Andrew Camp: Oh, okay.

Malcolm Foley: There we go.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. It's always, I, again, sometimes I hear the question, I get the answers I never expected and ice cream was not one I would ever hear, I thought I would hear, but.

Malcolm Foley: There you go.

Andrew Camp: Thank you for your honesty.

Malcolm Foley: That may alienate people more than the Christian socialism thing, so, sorry about that.

Andrew Camp: Creative anti violence doesn't eat ice cream, Christian socialism, like, you're winning with the white evangelical church right now, Malcolm. [01:00:00] Come on in,

you know, uh, and then on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you've ever eaten?

Malcolm Foley: Oh, okay. Um, you know, uh, like I really like beef is my favorite. Beef is really like my favorite food. So, so like, so like a really, like a really good steak brings me joy. Um, probably. Uh, like steak and, um, uh, and really good lemonade. Like, those are, those are, those are my two kind of favorite, favorite things, uh, that consistently fill me, uh, with, with, with joy.

Andrew Camp: Gotcha. Do you have a specific favorite cut of steak or any? Oh,

Malcolm Foley: ribeye. I mean, ribeye for sure.

Andrew Camp: All right. Okay.

Malcolm Foley: Um, the great thing about Texas, uh, you know, there's this, every, every, every [01:01:00] steak can be a mixed bag, but the great thing about Texas is I can just get really good quality beef just from the grocery store.

It's not expensive, and it's not super, and it's not expensive. Um, so.

Andrew Camp: I was worried you were going to say filet, and then I was going to be like, Okay, no ice cream, and now you like filet? I'm like, come on, please. No,

Malcolm Foley: no, no, no, no.

Andrew Camp: Okay.

I was beginning to question if we could be friends, Malcolm, but now. Yeah,

Malcolm Foley: yeah, don't worry. See, okay, good. I'm glad, I'm glad.

Andrew Camp: Yeah.

Malcolm Foley: I'm glad this is going to work out.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And then finally, there's a conversation among chefs about last meals, as in if you knew you had one more meal to enjoy, what would it be?

And so if Malcolm had one last meal, what would he enjoy?

Malcolm Foley: Well, I guess I've already named kind of two elements of it, because the steak would have to be, steak would have to be in it. Lemonade to drink. Um, let me think of what, of what, of what starch. Okay. Okay. Well, macaroni and [01:02:00] cheese would have to be the starch. And then as a vegetable, Oh,

Andrew Camp: do you need a vegetable if you're going to meet Jesus?

Malcolm Foley: Fair, fair, fair, fair boy. I just want to take that pressure off of you. I appreciate that. I appreciate you liberating me from that, from that particular bondage. Um,

if I have to think about it. It's clearly not on the, it's clearly not on, not on my, not on the forefront of my mind. So there

Andrew Camp: we go. There you go. Uh, there's no right or wrong. And like, you don't have to have this, you know, you don't have to eat what your mama told you on this meal. Like it's not, there's no rules.

Malcolm Foley: Uh, I think I would still do, I would, I would actually, I still kind of, for some reason, still want it to be balanced in some way. Like a sautéed spinach, like a, like a, like a, like a garlic sautéed spinach would probably, I'd be good [01:03:00] with that. Um, but yeah, that's, that was, that would, that would I think frame it out.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. Well, Malcolm, this has been fun. I've really enjoyed it. Um, enjoy your laugh. I enjoy your, your prophetic truth telling, um, and your invitation to all of us. And if people want to learn more about your work, is there a place they can find you?

Malcolm Foley: Yeah. So I'm, uh, I mean, I'm still on Twitter right now.

We'll see how, we'll see how much longer that lasts. Um, but, uh, but I'm on, uh, blue sky. At, uh, at Malcolm B, Malcolm B Foley, um, and then, uh, Instagram, it's Rev, Rev Doc Malk. Um, and, uh, yeah, and then, and then actually my, my co pastor and I have a, have a, have a podcast called, uh, Theology in Pieces, um, and I'll occasionally write for the, write for the Anxious Bench, uh, the Pathios blog as well, but, but the main thing is, uh, pick up the book.

Andrew Camp: Pick up the book, definitely. No, the anti greed gospel. It's [01:04:00] available now, wherever you get your books. Um, maybe not Amazon anymore, but, um, find a local bookstore, you know.

Malcolm Foley: Yeah, a local bookstore. And then, and then put reviews on Amazon so that people see it.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, exactly. Yes. It's all tied up. I'm like, okay, if I do that.

I

Malcolm Foley: know it's my way of undermining the system. I'll use the system to undermine the system.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, exactly. Awesome. Well, if you've enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing it with others. Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food.

Until next time. Bye.